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BS: Hopes for the New Pope???

Bobert 28 Feb 13 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,999 28 Feb 13 - 08:45 PM
Rapparee 28 Feb 13 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Stim 01 Mar 13 - 12:22 AM
Joe Offer 01 Mar 13 - 01:32 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 01 Mar 13 - 02:41 AM
DMcG 01 Mar 13 - 02:54 AM
Joe Offer 01 Mar 13 - 03:42 AM
GUEST 01 Mar 13 - 04:20 AM
Will Fly 01 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM
JHW 01 Mar 13 - 05:16 AM
Musket 01 Mar 13 - 06:37 AM
GUEST 01 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,mark-s(on the road) 01 Mar 13 - 08:23 AM
Joe Offer 01 Mar 13 - 12:40 PM
Jeri 01 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,999 01 Mar 13 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,mg 01 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM
Bill D 01 Mar 13 - 08:05 PM
mg 01 Mar 13 - 10:01 PM
Joe Offer 02 Mar 13 - 02:23 AM
DMcG 02 Mar 13 - 03:08 AM
GUEST 02 Mar 13 - 07:22 AM

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Subject: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 07:57 PM

Me???

Get a few arrests of molesters under his papal belt early... That is my base line...

Be nice for him to also break with the church's position on birth control... That would be a biggie...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 08:45 PM

Quick action in the Catholic faith is measured in decades and often centuries. The Pope cannot order arrests. That's for the civil authorities who seem to be doing a piss-poor job of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 10:39 PM

1. Require ALL bishops to order investigations, arrests, prosecutions and emprisonment of pedophiles by the civil authorities, no matter WHO is accused, and their "laicization."

2. Women priests.

3. The end of clerical celibacy, i.e., married priests.

4. Total and complete curia house-cleaning.

5. An end to the feudal and imperial form of government.

6. The end of "Let's Blame The Nuns" and start respecting women for the work they do.

Ain't none of it gonna happen....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 12:22 AM

I was sort of hoping for someone who would be a champion for the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, oppressed, though that sort of thing is probably way off topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 01:32 AM

What if we got a Pope who got out of the threat/coercion game? The Catholic Church no longer threatens people with hellfire and damnation, but the implication is still there that if you do thus-and-so, you'll go to hell. If they didn't threaten people, they could work to convince people by reason, telling people why doing thus-and-such would or would not be a good thing to do. They could oppose divorce by saying it's horrible for the children and showing people how to resolve their differences, but recognize that some marriages do fail and people need to be able to start over without going through a duplicitous annulment process.

The Catholic Church could give good, rational reasons why people may not want to practice birth control - and there are some - without resorting to the "because we said so" argument. It could continue to oppose the use of condoms without looking really stupid, and it could continue to oppose gay marriage without looking bigoted.

If the Pope and bishops really believe that what they are teaching on morals (particularly sex and marriage issues about which they are notoriously lacking in qualifications), then they could rely on reason and good will to deal with these moral issues - not threats.
What a concept! Heck, if they did this, they might gain back some of the credibility they lost in the child molestation scandal.

-Joe-

(revised from my Facebook post)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:41 AM

As tempting as it is to sneer and dismiss the whole concept of dogma in the 21st century, it is important to realise millions of people use their faith as their moral compass and no amount of lobbying for a more secular influence on society is going alter that.

A figurehead such as the pope should, if they read the runes correctly, look to keeping their faith relevant rather than argue against reason. There is good precedent as many biblical stories were woven from other mythology to make Christianity seem relevant to new communities.

So I would genuinely look for someone who begins to differentiate between tradition and reality. Yes, the ritual and wonder has a part o play, but a traditional rather than physical role. The influence on people and governments should be based on moral not doctrine causes. By retiring, the pope has effectively done away with the infallibility clause in his contract, and perhaps his public recognition that the church can get things wrong strengthen influence through reasoned approach rather than the old " you have to listen to me because god says so" that increasingly sidelines religious leaders when trying to make a stance.

Morris dancing has a traditional role in ensuring a bountiful harvest but I doubt a Morris dancer would say that without the bells and melodeon we face failed crops...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:54 AM

While I certainly support most of the views above, especially Joe, Musket and Bobert, I'd be happy if the pope was less of a centralist: dealing with the things Stim raised are all about addressing the issue in front of you as it is, not referring to a centrally managed set of rules and decrees. So the central rules should be few and general - "abuses of clerical power, in whatever guise, are not tolerated and are always investigated, using independant civil agents wherever possible", for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 03:42 AM

Well, Musket, I think I'd disagree with you with regards to Benedict XVI. The guy really made sense. The trouble is, he expressed ideas in paragraphs, and few people have to patience to read an entire paragraph carefully these days. He was constantly misinterpreted by the press, and most Catholic adults get their Catholic teaching the press and not from church documents.

Benedict made a revolutionary statement on condoms, and nobody noticed - because he didn't say "yes" and he didn't say "no." He said "yes, for these reasons" and also "no, for these reasons." He implied that the individual is supposed to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. This is a very old concept in Catholic moral theology, but it has been largely ignored. But it was very significant that Benedict acknowledged that things are often not completely right or completely wrong, and that it's up to the individual to decide.

The guy from Milan, Angelo Scola, sounds pretty good. The one I like best is Sean Cardinal O'Malley of Boston - who, incidentally, looks a lot like Joe Offer.....

You may address me as "Your Joeliness."

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 04:20 AM

That he orders the release of all records and information apertaining to the abuse committed by the clergy and the horrors of the Magdalane Launderies. And makes a clear, humble, and unequivocal apology to all those who suffered.

Rog


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM

Joe - be careful - that white smoke they burn to signify the end of the election may be one of your guitars...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: JHW
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:16 AM

I've no problem with a guy resigning if he's struggling with his job (if only more would) and good luck to him in retirement but I do think he should leave Rome and leave them to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Musket
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:37 AM

I respect your view of the old pope Joe.

However, the talking in paragraphs stance may lead to reasoned argument, but as the figurehead leader of so many people and the influence he has on people in developing countries with huge childbirth and std issues, something unequivocal on contraception would have been far more useful.

Where he spoke of giving the options and making your mind up, don't forget there are many, quite a few in black robes in fact, willing to make that choice for you... He missed an opportunity to use the influence the post craves to do something of tangible benefit for the world in the area where his church receives most criticism. Hitherto rightly so.

No issue with a pope looking like you, but pecking order and all that, shouldn't it be you look like him? Catholicism is hierarchal surely??


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM

Unique opportunity for the Vatican Unpoped Concert? Who's going?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST,mark-s(on the road)
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:23 AM

Swap out the sign of peace for the Harlem Shake at services.
That should get attendance up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 12:40 PM

I like the idea of a pope who speaks in paragraphs. Too many people are looking for simplistic answers and for somebody to tell them what to do. That's not what religion is supposed to be about. It's not about certainty, no matter how much people might want that. It's about living serenely in an uncertain world. That takes wisdom, a commodity that is in short supply in this world.
If you paid attention to Benedict's paragraphs, you'd see that Benedict offered freedom - not as much freedom as I'd like, but more than any pope offered before (with the exception of John XXIII). With that freedom, comes responsibility. People don't want that.
Actually, people don't want a pope to tell them what to do - they want a pope to tell other people what to do.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

Whoopie Goldberg for Pope!
Seriously, NPR had something on this morning when I was only a little bit awake. They were saying the Cardinals would be searching for someone without the tiniest little remnant of wisp of hint of scandal. They'll look either at home, in Italy, or somewhere totally unexpected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 01:36 PM

Yo, yer Joeliness: I see three people with possibilities. They are Cardinals Scola, O'Malley and Ouellet (in that order). I think what will hinder Scola is his late withdrawal from the Communion and Liberation group. O'Malley got some good work done in terms of cleaning up various scandals to do with priests who'd done things they shouldn't. Ouellet has clean hands, too, but he is little known outside the Vatican and his place in Quebec. He did however broker O'Brien's resignation. So, realistically it's between the three because the Church has issues that need to be addressed now. I think it's too close to call between O'Malley and Scola. I can't see Ouellet getting past a second vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM

I have a mere hunch O'Malley might get it. He lives a modest life, has approval of his diocese, some abuse victims say too little too late but at least one has endorsed him. He is a slllloooooowwwww talker but seems to be a decent man. He sold the bishop's house in Boston to pay for abuse victims. He seems mellow and non-scandalous. He has a nice name and would represent Irish and Irish Americans and others well...I think he would be businesslike...oh thank God the one from New York has enough scandals surrounding him that he is hopefully not in the running but in the gambling sheets he beats O'Malley.

Erdo and Tagle seem OK (except for Erdo being a Peter) but I don't really know and both seem to be rising. Why why why Bertone unless he has staved off even worse scandals by fighting with Sodona...Turkson attractive in many ways but baggage... mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM

I hope he becomes a Buddhist, but not before setting fire to the Vatican and denouncing The Church Of Rome as The Devil's Own Work. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:05 PM

"That's not what religion is supposed to be about. It's not about certainty,.."

Boy, are YOU in the minority, Joe.

As you have indicated often, many Catholics don't really understand the theological bases of what they are living, and just want the ritual and comfort with as little 'thinking' as possible. Changing the course of such an institution is like steering an ocean liner... you gotta go slowly and not make any sudden turns.

(It just occurred to me, Joe, that if most people held your ideas about religion, we'd not really need much. ;>))


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: mg
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 10:01 PM

THAT IS totally unfair to people who are essentially brainwashed from birth that they have to believe and act in ways that won't send them to hell. it is a very real fear. you can't allow people to be treated like that and then say they should know better. we were never allowed to think. some people manage to work around the ingrained fear and some don't. i obviously don't or i'd be a unitarian agnostic druidess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 02:23 AM

MG, I went through 16 years of Catholic education and never felt I was "essentially brainwashed from birth that they have to believe and act in ways that won't send them to hell." In my Catholic education, the emphasis was on "critical thinking" - the ability to think for myself. I was told is was an old tradition in Catholic education.

Many Catholics get religious education for one hour a week through eighth grade. I think it's those Catholics who end up with a simplistic, "do this or you'll go to hell" perspective. Most who went through Catholic High School seem to be more sophisticated.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:08 AM

Same here, mg. I have never felt brainwashed either. In answer to the obvious response that that simply proves how effective it is, when I have discussions with athiest friends about my beliefs and attitudes they almost always end up saying "But you are not a typical Catholic" and I usually end up wondering how they know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hopes for the New Pope???
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:22 AM

Been a catholic for almost 70 years and have never felt brainwashed by anything which emanated from either the vatican or clergy. I made my feelings clear recently when challenged by a priest about my "Catholic" faith when I said that my faith was not in the catholic church but in the person of Jesus Christ. I believe that if pressed, the majority of catholics would express a sim ilar view. To me, the vatican/pope represents a leadership which should reflect the church that Christ and his apostles started. Sadly this has not been the case for most of its existence, but to me (and many others)the original message of love and care still holds true and would solve most of the worlds problems if followed by a few more


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