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BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion?
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Subject: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: gnu Date: 09 Apr 13 - 05:10 PM SO many threads to choose from that MAYbe it should have one of it's own? Inspired by what I consider common sense of a man grown wise with age. The Dalai Lama. The only thing he said that I had not considered is in regard to grandparents. I have thoughts on this but the floor is open. Lets see where it goes, shall we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Apr 13 - 05:38 PM In other words, it's important who you are, not the label people stick on you. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: GUEST,Kenny B Sans Kuki Date: 09 Apr 13 - 05:45 PM Interesting ---- Ill drink to That |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 09 Apr 13 - 06:03 PM Good stuff gnu. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 09 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM Wise words indeed, and a confirmation of what I have instinctively always believed. A word of caution Gnu. In the UK the terms "Spiritualism" and "Spiritualist" relate specifically to those who claim, often though not always falsely and for monetary gain, to be clairvoyant, or to contact the dead. I mention this only to forestall responses which you might not be expecting. Perhaps the thread title, only if you agree, should be "Spirituality as opposed to Religion". Don T.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Ed T Date: 09 Apr 13 - 06:44 PM I enjoy my spirits on the rocks ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Amos Date: 09 Apr 13 - 06:45 PM Well, it seems clear as a bell to me that the minute you take the live energy of the spirit and condense it into an icon, a fixed image, a rule, a stricture, a moral code, an authority or a building with someone in charge o fit, you are walking away from the spiritual and into the mechanics, stops, solids, and jiggery pokery of the material universe. This is often done in order to control others, thus undermining their own self-determination with the very stuff of which their self-determination is made. This is a terrible offense, in my opinion. Organized worship strikes me as a bad investment, in its traditional form, with an anthropomorphic receptacle from which answers rarely return, and to which a trillion requests a minute are funneled. From the point of view of the individual free spirit, a very bad investment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Ed T Date: 09 Apr 13 - 06:58 PM Look where organized worship of this icon led to: Organized worship on an an icon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 09 Apr 13 - 07:02 PM From the Wikipedia article on Spiritualism: Spiritualism is a belief system or religion, postulating the belief that spirits of the dead residing in the spirit world have both the ability and the inclination to communicate with the living. Anyone may receive spirit messages, but formal communication sessions (séances) are held by "mediums," who can then provide information about the afterlife. Not to be confused with Spirituality. Which,unfortunately, you seem to have done, Gnu-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Apr 13 - 07:11 PM Yeah, here in California, the spiritualists are the ones with the crystal balls and tea leaves. http://www.spiritualist.tv/churches/us/california/ - this website makes me think there's more to "spiritualism" than commercial fortune tellers, though. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: michaelr Date: 09 Apr 13 - 07:19 PM Further proof that the Dalai Lama truly is an evolved, wise, holy man. A bit more lowbrow, but also deep: The bad news: There is no key to happiness. The good news: It's not locked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: gnu Date: 09 Apr 13 - 07:39 PM Joe... no shit. Kinda odd about all the nastiness a short while back about labels. But, that's what happens when people are right and EVERYbody else is wrong. When one is accosted for the transgressions of others who are associated with one's "devotion" or beliefs, they don't see YOU. They are blinded by their own ignorance and hatred in self-righteous bullshit. I reall don't think The Big Lama says anything wise outside what a wise old man would say but he said it and I think it applies to everyone. Even those who will decry it... the truth blind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 09 Apr 13 - 07:48 PM He says a lot of wise things. But it is not a surprise Its his job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Apr 13 - 08:26 PM That's a very good message in that video, gnu. Spirituality can come naturally to people with or without belonging to a given religion, but there isn't necessarily any opposition between spirituality and religion. Religion, at its best, is very much in harmony with spirituality...while at its worst, it is utterly at odds with spirituality. Anyway, the Dalai Lama's answers were extremely wise and to the point. The Truth is very simple. And very direct. A study of the world's major religions will reveal the same simple and direct truths at the heart of all of them, and the Dalai Lama summed those up in a few simple words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: gnu Date: 09 Apr 13 - 08:47 PM Stim... that`s interesting. To say the least. Please view the link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Janie Date: 09 Apr 13 - 09:17 PM Thanks gnu. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: gnu Date: 09 Apr 13 - 09:54 PM JtS... it's everyone's job. Save a few. No? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:46 PM I did view the link, gnu. Even if I hadn't, though, I am pretty familiar with what the Dalai Lama has to say, and also pretty familiar with Spiritualism, and know that they have nothing to do with each other. I was letting you know that "spirituality" and "spiritualism" are not the same things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:59 PM JtS... it's everyone's job. Save a few. No? Do you get paid to say wise things? I don't. He is the ONLY person I know of on this Earth that is a professional wise man. I think he is very very good at it. He is the Wayne Gretzky of old wise men. But that is just my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: michaelr Date: 09 Apr 13 - 11:39 PM The Dalai Lama's job is to keep in the Western public's awareness the plight of the Tibetan people, who have been under the yoke of Chinese invasion and suppression for 62 years. Let's not lose sight of that fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 10 Apr 13 - 12:39 AM And he does it by sitting in front of thousands saying wise things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Apr 13 - 02:55 AM Hey Little Hawk: 'A study of the world's major religions will reveal the same simple and direct truths at the heart of all of them,' What about the minor religions? What about Scientology - do you think that is a religion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:50 AM I think the suggestion that the thread title badly needs altering is a very good one. In some definitions Scientology is a religion. Religion is essentially a matter of structuring the way people deal with various aspects of their lives, most of which aren't much to do with spirituality, but including those which are. Labelling something a religion doesn't in any way mean it is necessarily a good thing. Human beings are capable of turning even good religions into something terrible. And it can happen the other way round. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:13 AM "Human beings are capable of turning even good religions into something terrible. And it can happen the other way round. ???" People can turn "something terrible" into a good religion? Interesting. Very interesting. Do you have an example? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 10 Apr 13 - 06:34 AM Our Spirituality, like our Sexuality, is common to all yet unique to each and every one of us in terms of the empirical experience of the beauty of the thing. Religion is to Spirituality what Pornography is to Sexuality - it exploits that which is perfectly natural and best experienced in all wonder, love, passion, mystery, awe & innocent reverie. It gets so bad that some find they need Religion and/or Pornography to get off, but I think most of us still prefer the real thing. Far from being mutually exclusive, Erotica & Religiosity combine at a very base & ancient level giving their fundamental significances in our lives - Birth / Biology / Death and our attendant hopes & fears / joys & sorrows. But, as with music, there is no truth, just a matter of personal & individual taste & myriad diversities arising, which will always give the lie to notions of God and Absolutism. They can't all be right, but they CAN all be wrong, and if one is wrong, then, quite simply, they all simply must be wrong. All Religions were made up, just like every other aspect of human culture; wondrous concepts indeed, but not one as wondrous as the simple joys of holy communion with a lover or the loving living light we see in our children's eyes or else the tears we weep in mourning the passing of a loved one. Daily we experience the sweet Epiphany of Empirical life made all the sweeter by the fact that MAN that is born of a woman hath but a short time to live, an is full of misery. He cometh up and is cut down like a flower; he fleeth as it were a shadow, and never continueth in one stay. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLoQ-sNvhec Daily we experience the ranting of those who claim have the answers. To them, it must be said, we haven't even figured out what the questions are yet. Personally, I doubt we ever will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 10 Apr 13 - 07:37 AM "Daily we experience the ranting of those who claim have the answers" And here, today we experience another. The answer provided is phrased in the ugliest imaginable way. "Religion is to Spirituality what Pornography is to Sexuality" Wow! but if it does the following, it is best for you. makes you more compassionate, more sensible, more detached, more loving, more humanitarian, more responsible, more ethical.쳌 The religion (or spiritually) that will do that for you is the best. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Ed T Date: 10 Apr 13 - 08:13 AM the-dalai-lama-and homosexuality |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 10 Apr 13 - 08:22 AM Monks are not normal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Ed T Date: 10 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM ""In 1963, a group of British Friends published, Towards a Quaker View of Sex'. This radical look at the sexual mores defined sin as "actions that involve the exploitation of the other person" and chastity as "the total absence of exploitation." They recognised that exploitation could occur within marriage as well as without, and called for "a morality that will enable people to find a constructive way through even the most difficult and unproductive situations." Much of the publicity that surrounded its publication of Towards a Quaker View of Sex focused on what it had to say about homosexuality. "An act which expresses true affection between two individuals and gives pleasure to them both does not seem to us to be sinful by reason alone of the fact that it is homosexual," the authors wrote. Rather it should be judged by the same criterion as any heterosexual relationship."" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 10 Apr 13 - 08:48 AM The religion (or spiritually) that will do that for you is the best. The point is there are no answers, Jack. We're all in this life together (all 7 billion of us, and counting!) yet we must each of us die alone even as life goes on rejoicing. Even as I write : 208,000 births, but only 88,0000 deaths. This much is self-evident, and inescapable - unlike religion. The only self-evident thing about religion is that it was made up by the powerful to pacify & dis-empower their prey by removing from them the potential for self-actualisation. It does not operate to make us more ethical, compassionate, sensible, loving, or humanitarian - on the contrary, it engenders a mawkish sanctimonious reaction to secular common-to-all-7-billion-of-us reality which is, self-evidently, and very wonderfully, the whole of the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Stringsinger Date: 10 Apr 13 - 10:36 AM Spiritualism or Spiritism is an attempt to reclaim religion without religious icons or institutions and I see it as this. Some people have been so addicted to religion that they try to replace it with other terms and philosophies. This may sound harsh, but I see no reason to embrace Spiritualism as another makeshift religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 13 - 10:47 AM Les, I don't really know enough about Scientology to evaluate it. My general impression of it is not too positive, but that's mainly due to general impressions of it that I've gotten from a lot of other people (gossip and rumour, that is)....so again, I don't know enough about it to comment. Is it a minor religion? I guess it is to some people. Maybe to others it's a major religion. (shrug) To me it's a minor cult or religion or philosophy that I'm not very knowledgable about. What you should maybe do is get in touch with Tom Cruise and ask him about it. ;-) Blandiver - Self-actualization is a given, both in religion and outside of it. As a matter of fact, I'd say that self-actualization is the very crux OF religion, if you bother going into it to any degree of depth. If you're totally shallow about it, though, maybe not. The totally shallow aren't very good at self-actualization. (not implying that YOU are shallow...I'm just saying, in general terms) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Amos Date: 10 Apr 13 - 11:04 AM I wouldn't ask Tom about it. I doubt he understands the subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Bill D Date: 10 Apr 13 - 11:14 AM Blandiver said above.."They can't all be right, but they CAN all be wrong, and if one is wrong, then, quite simply, they all simply must be wrong." I know there are huge differences of opinion on this, but the statement is crucial enough to need explication and/or slight rephrasing. The important word in the quote is *IF*. I have tried on various occasions to make the point about philosophic logic that says: "From false premises, anything follows." By itself, it doesn't prove or DISprove anything... it is merely a reminder that in order to have a TRUE conclusion (as distinct from a 'valid' one), it is necessary to start with TRUE premises. So... why such a pedantic point? Because, if one takes it seriously, it serves as a- for want of a better term, a warning about how to categorize and analyze the myriads of assumptions and claims that we encounter about our existence. When one encounters a statement that makes a claim, it is good practice to ask: "what is this based on?". (Yes... this is similar to the scientific method.... not quite as rigorous in this formulation, but crucial.) Now, 'spirituality' can mean different things to different people, and can lead to either specific areas like 'spiritualism' or 'religion' or to less focused ideas like just appreciating the awesome " sweet Epiphany of Empirical life " and the positive feedback we encounter from encountering love, art, nature, etc. But *IF* we contemplate taking certain claims of 'spirituality' literally, we risk basing our decisions and actions on possible false premises, which puts the whole system on shaky ground. The thing about humans is that they have the ability to 'reflect' on their own thought processes and invent, imagine and create ideas- a wondrous thing, but one which also allows them to totally ignore any distinctions and flawed reasoning which doesn't comport with what they wish to believe. It is easy for most of us to see this in the area of politics, for example, where rhetorical devices are used to avoid awkward truths,(especially among out opponents) but somehow the same logic escapes us in other areas. When we study history and the immensely varied aspects of human culture(s), we can find many ideas and creations to guide and inspire us... art, poetry, literature, ... as well as much to shudder at and avoid. The trick is sorting the good from the..... other... and then integrating the good in positive ways. If all this seems just too vague and pedantic, I'm sorry... but sometimes it is necessary to 'get at' the underlying mechanism that our strange human thought processes works on. I am simply (or not simply, if you insist) trying to suggest that the basic truth about "false premises" being a real danger can help us to appreciate various ideas of various 'spiritual' sorts without implicitly endowing them with metaphysical characteristics. So it IS the case that "They can't all be right, but they CAN all be wrong, and if one is wrong, then, quite simply, they all simply must be wrong."... because they are all based on one basic assumption about reality, and the final answer about the truth or falsity of that premise/assumption is beyond our capacity to explore. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Ed T Date: 10 Apr 13 - 11:17 AM Trust yourself Trust yourself to do the things that only you know best Trust yourself Trust yourself to do what's right and not be second guessed Don't trust me to show you beauty When beauty may only turn to rust If you need somebody you can trust Trust yourself Trust yourself Trust yourself to know the way that will prove true in the end Trust yourself Trust yourself to find the path where there is no if and when Don't trust me to show you the truth When the truth may only be ashes and dust If you want somebody you can trust Trust yourself Well, you're on your own, you always were In a land of wolves and thieves Don't put your hope in ungodly man Or be a slave to what somebody else believes Trust yourself And you won't be disappointed when vain people let you down Trust yourself And look not for answers where no answers can be found Don't trust me to show you love When my love may be only lust If you want somebody you can trust Trust yourself BOB DYLAN - TRUST YOURSELF |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 13 - 11:49 AM Good song. It is because I trust myself that I trust my own instincts when it comes to spirituality and everything else. I rely on my heart, not on a book, not on a dogma, not on an organization, a government, a hierarchy or a tradition. Just on what my own heart tells me. That's the best thing I have to go own, and no one else knows my heart but me. Could I be wrong about one thing or another? Sure! ;-) But I can live with that possibility, because life involves risk and uncertainty at all times, and I know it. Therefore, I can live with the realization that I am sometimes mistaken about something. (just like everyone else in this world is) And I go on managing as best I can, trusting in my own heart to tell me what to do next. The mind is clever. The mind can perform wonderful tricks to impress itself and others. But the heart is wise. That's why I trust the heart far more than I do the mind........having grown up in a family where the mind was worshipped like an idol...and the heart was buried under a hundred miles of material debris, pretense, and denial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Amos Date: 10 Apr 13 - 12:04 PM You are, indeed, a perfect Being, Mister Hawk! ;>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 10 Apr 13 - 12:13 PM I'd say that self-actualization is the very crux OF religion, if you bother going into it to any degree of depth I'd agree, only the deeper you do go into it, the more it cancels itself out. What you're left with is the human need for belief & collective delusion and the equally human capacity for seemingly boundless invention with respect of myth & metaphor. Times I might momentarily lapse from Atheist conviction & find myself pondering the possibility of God & concluding that if God there is, It bears no relation to any God religion has come up with and that I can have as much concept of It as our kitchen slugs have of Cybermen*. because they are all based on one basic assumption about reality, and the final answer about the truth or falsity of that premise/assumption is beyond our capacity to explore. Indeed. But in trying to subject my polemic to pedantry you reach the conclusion that the 'truth' of any religion is based on that very lack of capacity. What we can say is that human beings are very inventive but in lacking the capacity to explore beyond well established limits all we can do is tell stories, be it about God or Cybermen*, both of which are human constructs and have no place outside of their respective myth-systems. They may inspire us and terrify us, but that does not make them real. * Sorry for banging on about Cybermen but I harbour a lifetime's fondness for them on all sorts of levels. I recently bought a vintage trio which now have pride o' place on our mantelpiece having briefly cavorted on the CD shelf. Here's a pic I took upon their arrival: My new Cyber friends find their natural groove |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Ed T Date: 10 Apr 13 - 12:19 PM ""You took a coloured ribbon from out of the sky, and taught me how to use it as the years went by. To tie up all your problems and make them believe. And then to sell them to the people in the street. It's a strange, strange world we live in, Master Jack"" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Bill D Date: 10 Apr 13 - 12:28 PM "But the heart is wise. That's why I trust the heart far more than I do the mind....." I don't suppose you want ME to explicate the contradictions and complications inherent in phrases like that... ;>) I know what you're getting at L.H.... instinct & feeling rather than that old, cold reason. I also don't suppose you'd be interested in a list of historical problems brought on by various others who used the same argument. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Bill D Date: 10 Apr 13 - 12:38 PM I just thought of a quote from that old book "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran: "Let your reason and your passion be the rudder & sails of your seafaring soul." Sailors who use just one or the other end up in strange places. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 13 - 12:39 PM Perfectly imperfect, Amos! ;-) Blandiver, how do you define "God"? Whether or not you believe in God, you obviously have some definition (vague or otherwise) that comes into your mind when you hear the word "God", and if you say you don't believe in God, then it is that definition of God against which you are arguing. That definition may in no way resemble what someone else thinks of when they say "God"...therefore your argument may be quite irrelevant to their idea of God. "the human need for belief" is obvious, because everyone believes in something...actually, in many things. That gives them a foundation upon which to stand. We both, for example, believe in numbers...one plus one equals two, etc.... Why do we? Because we've been taught about numbers and we've experimented with what we've been taught, so we know about it and believe in it, based on experience. We also believe that we exist. Why? Because we're experiencing it. We believe that what we say matters! ;-) Or do we? Maybe not. If so, then why are we saying it? Just for lack of anything else to do at the moment? They say that even a fool will be thought wise, if he remain silent. Do you truly know yourself? Does anyone here truly know himself? If not then why bother insisting upon or denying the existence of God? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM ...makes you more compassionate, more sensible, more detached, more loving, more humanitarian, more responsible, more ethical.쳌 The religion (or spiritually) that will do that for you is the best. Who needs either to be the above? What about the Intelligence You Have which can do all the above? What about just doing it because it is right? Why do you need anything except yourself to be thus? Stand up on your own two feet already! The religious claiming to be spiritual doesn't bother me nearly as much as atheists who say they aren't religious but they are spiritual. Barf. Why not just say you like to contemplate infinities? In French, being spiritual means being witty, as in, il se trouve spirituel (he thinks he's funny). I try to pretend that is what they mean (Sorry. I am easily annoyed about this kind of stuff these days, going through a move from the house the landperson tried to evict us from, and failed, and now they are saying we didn't ask nicely enough to be let out of our lease early... and they are Catholic and found out we were atheists which is why they tried to evict us in the first place.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:29 PM I think, perhaps, Little Hawk, that belief in something is a very different thing to the empirical demonstration of its existence. I don't just believe in numbers, or bugs (or even myself) though I accept my concept & understanding of them are culturally derived, or not. For instance, I have little concept of number, but I know how far a bundle of fivers is going to go in ASDA; I am no dietician yet I know which food is good for me, and which isn't, or what's going to happen to my brain when I sink those beers I bought earlier. This is Gnosis. I don't just believe that by banging on these keys in a certain order I can write these words, I KNOW. Just as I know these words are themselves the product of 50,000 years of human communication, each enshrined by concept and ordered by seemingly innate & ancient structures of grammar and syntax. I also KNOW people are WRONG if they mistake these STRUCTURES for RULES, unless, of course all rules are defined by exception. There are few absolutes when it comes to opinions and perspectives - this much is self-evident too. It is, I think, an old gaff to say such things are a matter of faith, and to then put them on the same plain as things that DO require faith - UFOs (in the ETH sense at least) / Folk Music / God etc. etc. - simply because without a strong consensus of what is REAL, our whole world view wouldn't just fall apart, it wouldn't have existed in the first place. Imagination is a wonderful thing - collectively, individually - but it is toward objective falsifiable enlightenment that the road of learning leads and the religious invariably fall off along the wayside onto stony ground and fail to thrive in the hapless realm of their own parables wherein there is no difference between what is, and what ain't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Ed T Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:54 PM Humanity is filled with people acting on "gut" feelings. On what science scale are they measured? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:57 PM Mrzzy, I think we all tend to instinctively battle against whatever we were oppressed by in our youth.....and we instinctively battle for whatever we were convinced of in our youth. One or the other. And both. I don't know what you were oppressed by or convinced of in your youth. In mine I was oppressed by my parents' materialism, their social-climbing pretensions, their greed, their blind egotism, and their deep insecurity...but never by religion (because I grew up as an atheist). And I was convinced of science, reason, and literature and art...all things which are quite wordly and obvious. I continue to believe firmly in science, reason, literature, and art. I continue to battle against the utter loneliness and ultimate despair that results from materialism, social pretensions, greed, blind egotism, and deep insecurity. And the thing that has most effectively enabled me to battle against those is my sense of spirituality (not necessarily tied to any specific religion...but finding helpful echoes in all of them). Since I have received nothing negative from spirituality in this life, but found only positive things in it, I cannot relate to your hostility to the very notion of it. (And I suspect you cannot relate to my view of it either.) **** Blandiver - Yes, quite so. There are things we KNOW. Plenty of them. And we know them by direct experience. There are other things we consider probable, very probable, not very probable, highly improbable, etc.....but in no case can we say we KNOW for certain about those things, because we don't. We merely have a view based on our assessment of the probabilities. I don't view spirituality as based upon any kind of empirical knowledge, because it's not a matter of phenomena. It's not objective, it's subjective. It's not exoteric (outer), it's esoteric. It's not measurable, but is experiential. (I could say all these things of Love too.) It's a matter of how one applies one's consciousness to one's own life and the lives of others and how one unites it with action. Can one do all this without belonging to a religion? Of course! But if a religion seems to help one to do it, then the religion is in no way an impediment, and belonging to a religion by no means requires that one must literally believe every single word attributed to that religion in some specific book or books. To give another example of this: although I am a Canadian, and quite happy to be so, I do not necessarily agree with everything Canadian, I do not necessarily agree with everything my government and country have ever said or done, and I don't think Canada is perfect, and I don't have to agree with everything Canada does! I reserve the right to disagree with Canada on various points while yet remaining Canadian. ;-D The same goes for belonging to a religion. Spirituality must be accompanied by freedom of thought and freedom of choice or it is not real spirituality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:16 PM "They can't all be right, but they CAN all be wrong, and if one is wrong, then, quite simply, they all simply must be wrong." That's not exactly a logical statement. Apply it to a pile of fruit. Just become one of the fruits isn't a banana it doesn't mean none of them might be bananas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Ed T Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM When there's a conflict between facts and feeling in the brain (the gut), does not feelings more frequently win? The gut? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:36 PM ...makes you more compassionate, more sensible, more detached, more loving, more humanitarian, more responsible, more ethical.쳌 Those are values, and, sorry to break it to you all, but there are a lot of people who reject them, and not just in practice--I have heard them decried by strident intellectuals as "bourgeois values" and by certain others as 'decadent" and "weak"-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spiritualism as opposed to religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM Given my own upbringing, Ed, I already believed in evolution by the time I was 6 or 7 years old. I even drew pictures at that age demonstrating the scientific view of evolution of species. I took it completely for granted, because it was conventional science and ours was a science-minded household. I don't find that evolution conflicts with spirituality or religion. (unless one is a literal-minded fundamentalist of a certain type) Neither do I find that it succeeds in completely explaining everything we need to know about life and the origins of life nor does it completely give meaning to life. It does help explain part of the process, but it doesn't provide any complete or final answers. It's just one aspect of the process that we recognize as life. I've never found a conflict between gut feelings and fact. Fact is indisputable or it would not BE fact. I have often found a conflict between gut feelings and conventional opinions based on the interpretations OF various facts. Unless one knows and fully understands ALL the relevant facts regarding any given subject of concern, one's opinion based on some of the facts may still be in error. You can have a huge headfull of facts and STILL be wrong. ;-) History is full of people who had a head full of facts and were still wrong anyway...usually because they interpreted those facts to suit their own personal desires. |
