BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 04:34 PM

i am surprised that even atheists consider themselves sinless.
two possibilities occur to me
1,sin is too religious a word.maybe going against the conscience?if they think they never do that,it speaks to me of shutting off the sense of wrongdoing and not being able to recognize it anymore.
2,not having any point of reference as a final authority they determine right and wrong on whatever suits them.this admittedly seems consistent with atheism.
maybe the sinless ones could enlighten those of us that are conscious of being sinful what they mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: John P
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 04:04 PM

It's the only thing I've found that helps me change my own sinful ways.

The normal moral compass doesn't get the job done, eh? Jack, this makes you sound like an ethical infant.

given that we all sin

Speak for yourself! I may regret some choices I've made, but I have never sinned. Sinning, in my book, requires intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 03:47 PM

The Christian Left (Facebook page)
In the sermon on the mount Jesus is basically saying, "You want to go around worrying about other people's sins? Fine. Here's the standard you need to use for yourself first … If you hate your brother, it's the same as murder, etc." He's saying that when you've achieved perfection, then you can judge. Of course he knew that none of us is capable of achieving perfection. Conservative Christians like to walk around and say, "Well, if we truly love people then we must correct their sinful behavior." WRONG. Any human attempt to "correct the sinful behavior" of others only looks like blatant hypocrisy given that we all sin.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 03:26 PM

So if I read that right...

If I were a sinner, being a Christian would help me come to terms with it?

But as I don't sin, it follows that I don't need to confess anything. Seems to me there are many people who don't need to waste so much of their time. Have they been told?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

The Christian Left (Facebook page)
There is a way to "correct the sinful behavior" of others without being a hypocrite. It's through kindness and understanding. It goes something like this: "Brother (or Sister), I can understand your struggles. I struggle too. We all do. There are no new sins under the sun and we're all in the same boat which is the human condition. I've found hope in looking at the life of Jesus and trying to imitate his ways. I fall short every day but I get up and try again every morning. I stay close to him, read the word, and pray. It's the only thing I've found that helps me change my own sinful ways."

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 12:14 PM

So.. Is Carolina in the Pre Cambrian or Jurassic era?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM

The Dinos walk among us!

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,The Other Mr. Abernathy
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 08:08 PM

If Dinosaurs were discovered some where, it would be important to know where they've been, why they disappeared in the first place, and who did they think was going to clean up the mess that they left?

I wouldn't leave it to scientists to figure out the answers. Scientists sit around and mumble about "Fossil Evidence" and such silliness while these lizard types walk off with the store. I don't mind saying it's a scandal. Or a shame. At least something to look in to.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:44 AM

i do not believe this!!!the smugest asshole on mudcat accusin others of bein gsmug
Get a grip of youself..not in the biblical sense..cos I know what sailors are!..pretty safe there barnacle balls..shiver. Me timbers Its Jerk the Sailor.the. Nauticalimposter and all round bounder.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:44 AM

i do not believe this!!!the smugest asshole on mudcat accusin others of bein gsmug
Get a grip of youself..not in the biblical sense..cos I know what sailors are!..pretty safe there barnacle balls..shiver. Me timbers Its Jerk the Sailor.the. Nauticalimposter and all round bounder.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,JtS
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:15 AM

This group embodies my Christian values to some extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 09:45 AM

"i would not be surprised if dinos were discovered somewhere even now."

"if a dino were discovered evolutionists would just re-arrange the theory"

There would be no need to re-arrange the theory. With due respect, it appears that you do not have a working knowledge of the "theory"

Finding a dino in the process of being intelligently designed and created on the spot by an omnipotent Deity probably would spark some debate. But many scientists would probably be more interested in pouring over the blueprints than talking to the deity. Nerds are like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 06:58 AM

Thanks for the clarification pete. I was purely picking up on the issues I raised when I was part of a health care regulator. Complaints from staff in many trusts included confusion where, I accept mostly inadvertently, patients had confusion and like it or not, confusing the metaphysical with reality often compounds the issue according to the many professionals concerned. The good results of what I admittedly called comfort blanket have to be put alongside the many poor or exacerbated outcomes.

In contrast, use of a figure, often god, to relate to in the twelve step approach to substance misuse cessation has had excellent results. I have been able to publish encouraging reports.

Despite my huge misgivings and my dismissal of tirades by Sailor Jack, my issues with aspects of religious influence are based on real issues that could and should be addressed without fear or favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 04:01 AM

it seems musket that you inferred that i was claiming that ALL mental/pychological problems are guilt related.that was not my intention.it may be that that many more than appear to be other causes,may be guilt related - though i am not claiming a scientific,ststitical study.

i would not be surprised if dinos were discovered somewhere even now.there have been other aninals and plants that were claimed to be extinct on the supposed evidence of the geological record.you probably know they are sometimes called "lazarus taxa"
of course,if a dino were discovered evolutionists would just re-arrange the theory and congratulate themselves on how "provisional" their "science" is.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 02:42 AM

The Amazing Grace story is one I know well and have always been impressed with. Not sure it goes anywhere towards the point about people with a mental health problem seemingly requiring forgiveness.

There again, I did ask that someone with knowledge help me out here.

Regarding the dinosaur conundrum. It isn't child abuse to tell fairy stories. Santa Claus and the tooth fairy were a feature of our house. However, one of the rites of passage of growing up is to find out it was a myth to entertain children. Perpetuating the myth into adulthood such as creationism, rising from the dead, being sinners unless you bow to those representing a fictitious character. ...

That's different.   Much different. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:19 PM

I feed your trolling. Sometimes I even answer you childish questions.

I found the Abernathy post amusing. You yourself would be more tolerable if you have a detectible sense of humor.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:01 PM

I think it is usually a lie to tell children that Dinosaurs and people coexisted. I would not call it child abuse.

Cut the bullshit, Jacko. The child abuse comes in telling children that the myth of their particular place of birth is true, that you mustn't question it and that it will be very hard and unpopular of you to try to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 07:57 PM

Good to see you feeding a troll there, Wacko. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 05:50 PM

Oh he smirks!

He is nothing if not smug.

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,The Other Mr. Abernathy
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 05:37 PM

Dawkins! The evilest man to walk the Earth! His despicable lies lead fools to commit the vilest abominations. And as humanity is swallowed by the toxic foam of his deception, he laughs...well, maybe he doesn't laugh, but he smirks. Not so much smirking, really, more twitching his nose, but it is annoying, at least distracting, and you never can concentrate on what he's saying because it's all, "Hem,hem, haw, haw, twitch, twitch, hum, hum.." Really. Too much. Just too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 04:41 PM

I think it is usually a lie to tell children that Dinosaurs and people coexisted. I would not call it child abuse.

4th-grade-science-test-creationism-quesions

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:08 PM

You chose it. Given your form, you're unlikely to accept mine, so do carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM

Steve Shaw,


You are with Dawkins, because you place yourself with Dawkins. You repeat his memes, and defend them. You defend Dawkins and try to explain what he means.


If you don't like the word "follower" choose another.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM

"That is not the same as seeking forgiveness for something not your fault. That is what I don't understand. "

You make assumptions not in evidence. pete is talking about people seeking forgiveness for things that ARE their fault, alcoholics, gamblers, violent abusers rapists, murderers and more. People who can't live with the things they have done. People who can't forgive themselves.

He mentioned Amazing Grace with is very apt.

It is written by a man grateful for the forgiveness of things he had done, including slave trading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Grace

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM

I don't know any "followers of Dawkins". Atheists don't follow anyone. We are a disparate (not quite desperate) bunch of free thinking people. Atheists never herd together (or flock together if you like, as Christians do, though "herd" seems to be a lustier word to me. Oh, well. Your choice). If Dawkins talks crap or appears too abrasive we'll always say so. Many atheists agree with much of what Dawkins has to say,and we appreciate his diplomatic approach. Hitchens was another "prominent atheist" who wrote books. You will find fewer atheists agreeing with his approach. This "follower of Dawkins" malarkey seems to me to be yet another attempt to cast atheism as a quasi-religion. Dawkins is Jesus, we are his followers. We don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:54 PM

"
You repeat and defend Christianity. So... are you with the criminals if I am with Dawkins? "

I can't believe that you are that stupid.

You are with Dawkins, because you place yourself with Dawkins. You repeat his memes, and defend them. You defend Dawkins and try to explain what he means.

I have said again and again that there have been bad things done in the name of religion. I have renounced those things.

I hereby renounce crazy people who form their own religious cult, whether or not the invoke the term "antichrist", and kill their own children. I renounce all people who call themselves a God.

I have defended and quoted Jesus and C.S. Lewis. You can flatter me by lumping me in with them if you like. Everyone else, EVERYONE else is on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:33 PM

Fine as far as it goes pete. But the assumption would be that there is something to be forgiven for?

I am convinced of the value of, say, chaplaincy in hospitals as the comfort for those who find comfort in their faith can aid recovery or alleviate anxiety in palliative care. Much better than medicines and in some ways is related to feeling better once you see a doctor rather than once the tablets actually start working.

That is not the same as seeking forgiveness for something not your fault. That is what I don't understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:15 PM

You repeat and defend Christianity. So... are you with the criminals if I am with Dawkins?

That's the problem when assertive people feel they are threatened by lack of belief. The arguments they are advised to use by, in Jack's case Betty Swollocks, rely on seeing atheism as a threat so you have to find someone who has a high public profile and say anybody who is irreligious is a follower of them.

Pathetic.

First, if Christianity is worth a jot, cultists wouldn't need to attack lack of faith as being a rival cult. Here in The UK we have people going to court to ask for legal support for their bigotry and then claiming persecution when the courts refuse to acknowledge that law breaking is okay if the Bible allows it.

Second, most decent Christian people I know would feel embarrassed by people like you who use their Bible as a weapon. You claim, I suppose, to have been a sailor? Well did you open your eyes on your travels? The rest of the Western world isn't based on Dumbfuckistan principles. I thought you may have found that in Canada but maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:04 PM

musket - my point is that people afflicted by emotional,pychological or even physical maladies as a result of guilt/shame,may be cured if they believe there is forgiveness for them.
this may be from other people or/and God.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:06 PM

"then why are you and other obnoxious idiots insisting that atheism is something to do with worshipping at the altar of Dawkins? "



No one has said that. I have said that I have not been talking about atheism or atheists in general about 50 times. We have been saying that Ian Mathers (as well as unnamed others) is a follower of Dawkins because you repeat and defend his Dogma, because you say you have read his works and agree with them. And I have said this ONLY in the context of you throwing his arguments at me.

Is kind of like calling someone who tries to win arguments by quoting L. Ron Hubbard and quoting Dianetics a Scientologist.

Perhaps the obnoxious idiot is the one who does not pay attention to what the people he is heckling are saying. Get over yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:06 PM

A bit of an aside here, but "Musket sans sailor seaman": I don't know what bars they hang out in where you live, but you don't have to be without one for long.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 11:52 AM

My point being.. then why are you and other obnoxious idiots insisting that atheism is something to do with worshipping at the altar of Dawkins?

You say you are a Christian and that if you aren't like you, you must be a follower of Dawkins. Stand by your conviction man. Either you condone the appalling actions in South America or stop reading about Dawkins and saying atheists must be all like him.

All well and good posting about how people with no superstition are persecuting and gaining influence in order to consign religion to the dustbin but then refusing to carry on the debate when you over step the mark makes my piss taking look reasonable.

Am I still taking the piss? Well? Am I punk?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:24 AM

I guess you get to decide. Good luck finding someone to bicker with you about definitions. I'll tell you some nut job in South America killing his own baby has nothing to do with my faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:12 AM

And 100

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:05 AM

It occurs to me that to some people, as shown on this and similar threads lately, equate either all actions as explained by their religion, or others as saying all actions have nothing to do with religion.

So... is this Christianity or something called christianity which isn't? And who gets to decide?

How to spot the Anti Christ American style

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:12 AM

What a load of psuedo intellectual claptrap!!! You have really excelled yerself in this mumbo jumbo semi digested claptrap.

Your grip on religion, philophesy and the real word is as flaky as you posing as a mariner.

People with paronoia think that EVERYONE is out to punish them.

Oh, and your latest gem "A person who has been abused might see the qualities of their abuser in God. etc."

Would six million jews see them qualities in the SS of their God?

Go way and play with your duck in the bath, you maritime fraud, everyone is finding you out for the buffoon you are

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 07:20 AM

Yes Spleen Cringe, True enough. Also, I think pathology might be drawn to the God that suits it or people with issues might project them onto their perception of God. I think someone with paranoia think that God is out to punish them. A person who has been abused might see the qualities of their abuser in God. etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 03:23 AM

Well Done Musket..! yet another who is fed up of the arrogant posings and self opiniated tripe of old Barnacle balls. Yet when he is called to account he gets more abusive..and starts cutting and pasting the rules...What is that all about Jerk The Sailor?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:54 AM

It seems quite clear to me that if you believe in a god, believing s/he's a nice deity who's looking out for you is going to have a much better impact on your mental health than believing s/he's angry, vengeful and out to get you. Also all that smiting can get a bit stressful.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:15 AM

Read the post Jack. I asked for anybody with a knowledge to answer. . I don't recall lifting the sheet off your cage.

Pete. I genuinely accept the concept of requiring a sense of shame at being wrong and finding forgiveness from peers as the road to putting things right. My question was linking a mental health issue which is a medical condition with the need for feeling you need forgiving? Sure, if your irrational actions harm others it would be nice to acknowledge this in more lucid moments but I just want to know if there is any whiff of God's punishment in the medical diagnosis?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 08:59 PM

I think that is what he calls "taking the piss." I don't think it is meant to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 08:43 PM

i am uncertain as to whether musket misconstrues my post or is confirming that some atheists have no sense of wrong.
i suppose they have no final authority to determine what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 07:34 PM

Well, pete,the angry/callous/uncaring God, if there is a God, is an unassailable fact. All that death, disease, pain, fear, predation, starvation and waste of life in the struggle for existence condemn him immediately. After all, he's all-powerful so he didn't have to organise things that way. On the other hand, his grace and forgiveness can be no more than a speculation. When are we going to see it, and, when we do, will he be able to tell us why he's so partial in the way he doles it out?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM

I am staggered!!

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

Health benefits of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:03 PM

Err.. and I ask this of pete or anybody with a knowledge and experience of interpreting religion;

In terms of mental health, what would you be asking to be forgiven for?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 01:25 PM

more or less jack.it might have been billy graham that suggested that many mental health problems might disappear if some could know forgiveness.such a conviction no doubt gave rise to newtons "amazing grace"

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:42 AM

From the story pete refers to.

" a belief in a forgiving, loving God is associated with positive psychological traits, "almost protecting against psychopathology," she told Raw Story. "

Is that what you were talking about pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:32 AM

the link on angry god/mental disorder was no where near as definite as the title of the article might suggest.i would suppose that a one sided view of God that ommitted his grace and forgiveness would be detrimental to mental health,especially for anyone already unstable.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:55 AM

The Golden Rule