BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,Lester sans cookie
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 02:26 PM

From my research of a 50 mile round London ride yesterday the most dangerous red light jumpers, and I saw cars, buses, bikes and pedestrians do it is the bloody pedestrians. I very nearly collided with a young lady around Trafalgar Square despite the crossing lights having a count down display which went to 0, then the lights went red against her, then green for the traffic and she just kept on chatting on her phone and launched about 10 feet in front of my bike.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 03:41 PM

D the G would not last long in any North American city.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 04:24 PM

I've been to Chicago, St Louis and Memphis along and lots of places I can't remember and survived them all, Q :-) I didn't have a bike though :-( Hoping to go to Florida (Tampa area) early next year.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:42 AM

BBC today.

The number of cyclists killed on Great Britain's roads rose by 10% in 2012, as the overall number of road deaths fell to its lowest since records began in 1926, according to official figures.

The number of deaths among cyclists rose from 107 in 2011 to 118 in 2012, the Department for Transport announced.

But there was a total of 1,754 deaths on British roads in accidents reported to the police in 2012, it added.

This was 8% lower than the equivalent figure for 2011.

It would lead to further calls for road designers to focus more on cycling safety, our correspondent added.

"In addition, the number of pedal cyclists reported to the police as seriously injured in a road accident increased by 4% to 3,222," the Department for Transport said.

"There is a well-established upward trend in pedal cyclist casualties; this is eighth year that the number of seriously injured cyclist casualties has increased."

The overall number of people seriously injured in road accidents fell 0.4% to 23,039 in 2012.

The Department for Transport said it was likely that the unusually high levels of rainfall in 2012 had reduced the number of pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists using the roads.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:05 AM

Do we ban all those from pavements as well?

No, just the mobile phones. Or we could just ban self-absorbed assholes in general - that would take care of most of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:17 AM

Why do some cyclists think they have a right to ignore traffic laws as it suits them and why do the police and local authorites do nothing about it ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:19 AM

Riding on the paved portion of the road facing traffic is very dangerous...suicidal;

On a fast road, it makes no difference which way the cycle is going.
The relative speeds are little changed.
In a collision it is only the cyclist who dies, so better for him to be able to see the danger.
My closest call was was being hit from behind by wing mirror and screen pillar and sent sprawling into the road.

Cycling against the flow is not tolerated but should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:23 AM

Dave, as I said, I put my safety above rules.
Cycling, I go when I feel safest.
When I am safe inside my steel cage, I stick to the rules.

When vehicle and cyclist collide, only the cyclist dies.
Cut us some slack.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:39 AM

self-absorbed assholes

Now, there's a concept worth considering :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 10:15 AM

"
Why do some cyclists think they have a right to ignore traffic laws as it suits them and why do the police and local authorites do nothing about it ?"

The same reason as motorists do it to the extent that when challenged by another road user they pull a baseball bat from the boot and go to town.

Don't keep parroting these stupid questions. Cyclists are doing nothing motorists don't do in greater numbers, at higher speeds and with more death and maiming resulting. Furthermore, motorists evade paying tax and insurance (which are not required of cyclists - whether it should be is another matter - I do have cycle 3rd party insurance), they steal petrol from filling stations, park all over the pavements, use their vehicle for robberies, assaults and disposal of bodies - but we're getting silly here aren't we, we don't want to attribute the faults of a few to the many - oh, but that's just what you are doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 10:41 AM

Absolutely Manitas

Cyclists all ignore traffic laws
Irish are all thick
Moslems are all terrorists

What is the difference between any of the above stupid statements?
Only one of them will not get you in trouble if you say it in public!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 10:44 AM

Greg - After my flippant comment above, I think you have a good point.

Or we could just ban self-absorbed assholes in general - that would take care of most of the problem.

Unfortunately we cannot legislate against stupidity but on the plus side, Darwin's Law takes care of a lot of them :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 10:48 AM

Unfortunate, indeed. I would actively support legislation to criminalize stupidity - would save many more lives than criminalizing drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 12:22 PM

As a cyclist (only a lightweight - 5 miles to work and 5 miles home daily) who also drives when he absolutely has to, I'm going to give a big thumbs up to Manitas' comments above. There may be a few idiot cyclists out there, but the problem is because they're idiots not because they're cyclists. Most of us use a mixture of common sense, hyper-vigilance, flexibility and general awareness of our surroundings. That's why most of us don't crash into pedestrians. And because we're not driving around in a ton of metal capable of high speed and rapid acceleration, even if the red mist descends in the general scheme of things we really aren't the dangerous ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 12:37 PM

Sorry, Spleen - but there's way more than "a few".

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM

I doubt if the percentage of idiot cyclists exceeds the percentage of idiot pedestrians or idiot drivers but you could well be right, Greg. Unfortunately it does seem to be more than a few :-( Anyone care to put a % on it? 1? 5? 10? Doubt if it is any more or we would be seeing carnage on every street corner! I, personally, would expect the number of drivers in the idiot bracket to be the highest but I could be mistaken. I also suspect people tend to see only the idiot cyclists because they stand out from the vast majority of sensible ones in the same was as extremists stand out in any area. Just my two pen'urth of course but I hope it makes sense to others.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 01:49 PM

Makes sense to me, Dave - but consider, too, that many motorists are cyclists as well. ;>)

Dunno how that would adjust the persentages.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 03:53 PM

It is only a few, Greg. Otherwise the streets would be awash with gore...

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 03:59 PM

ON THE SIDEWALK ... my mom would probably just run them over when she was alive ... seems the sidewalk was part of the road to her

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 04:38 PM

It is only a few, Greg. Otherwise the streets would be awash with gore...

There but for the grace of attentive motorists, Spleen. And in my experience this side of the pond, they're an infestation.

Back in Blighty, I'll leave it for the natives to comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 06:02 PM

I can only speak for over here. And I know I feel a heck of a lot safer when I'm driving... And plenty of motorists are far fro attentive. Not all, by any means, but way too many.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 06:21 PM

I am glad to say the only close call I had on a pedal cycle was someone opening their car door in front of me. I managed to swerve out of the way and there was no harm done. The driver was mortified and could not apologise enough. Hopefully he never did it again.

Now, on a Motorcycle was a different matter. Drivers really seem to hate the way motorcycles can filter through the traffic. I always did it VERY safely but a few arseholes did not like it. One pulled as far over to the left as he could until he thought I could not get through. And 'accidentally' lost his wing mirror as I squeezed past. The best though was a boy racer wanting to try and beat me from the lights. Idiot. Honda CB450 - 0-60 in less than 4 seconds. Ford Escort 9 seconds-ish? I slipped my clutch and stopped after about 3 feet. He shot off on the red light and was unhurt but very embarrassed, and hopefully arrested, for running into the path of a police car:-)

Yes, I know, I should not have. But I was 18 years old and I know better now :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM

"Drivers really seem to hate the way motorcycles can filter through the traffic. I always did it VERY safely but a few arseholes did not like it. "

Well...color me 'arsehole'. I have had cyclists decide they 'needed' to use the space between cars to gain a few seconds while cars were stopped at a light. I had had them lean on or bump my car as they squeezed past. I have seen them take chances with all sorts of vehicles, just to exploit their smaller width.

The law in 'most' places says that cyclists are entitled to a place in the normal traffic lanes (*not on high-speed motorways*) and that motor vehicles must recognize this and not harass them. It does NOT grant cyclists the right to create new, personal traffic lanes between the marked lanes. Doing so says: "I have disdain for your silly restrictions on MY freedom and abilities, I will take my chances."

I am all in favor of bicycle lanes on major streets, giving hardy & healthy folks a non-polluting way to get about and not take up parking places where they go. I am NOT in favor of cyclists making up their own rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 02:48 AM

I see your reaction all the time Bill, in male drivers.
They hate it when a bicycle goes past them.
It does not effect your progress in any way, so why do you care?
Is it a masculinity issue?

It is not breaking any rule to slip between stationary vehicles.
Cyclist are not required to stop when their way ahead is clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 04:22 AM

So, it goes like this then, does it Bill?

A cyclist is tootling along at 10MPH, you can safely pass him either in the same lane or by, in your own words, 'creating a new personal one'. So you do.

Then, 200 yards down the road, you are stopped due to any of the major reasons that cars need to halt. The cyclist can safely pass you either in the same lane or by, in your own words, 'creating a new personal one'. So he does.

You are doing nothing wrong but he is being 'disdainful' and 'making up his own rules' is he? (No sexism intended btw - he or she would apply but is tedious to type all the time!) Sorry, but that really takes the biscuit. One law for you and one for cyclists. Sadly, too many other drivers think the same way and then wonder why cyclists get annoyed.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:00 AM

UK Highway Code - Rules for Cyclists
64. You MUST NOT cycle on a pavement. (MUST NOT in capitals and Red)

Last year (best guess) a cyclist riding on the pavement shouted at a young woman to get out of his way. As she stood her ground he ran over and killed her. Fined £2000

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:11 AM

What the available statistics say
Using DFT figures, from 2007-2008, 60.7 pedestrians were killed on the pavement by motor-vehicles, whereas 0.5 were killed on the pavement, by pavement cyclists. This is based on 10% of pedestrian casualties being on the pavement or verge as was the case 2007-2008. The ratio of pedestrians killed on the pavement by motor-vehicles to those killed by cyclists is therefore 121.4:1. The ratio from 1998-2008 is 820.1:3 or 273:1 (uses the same 2007-2008 10% pedestrian casualties figure).

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:18 AM

Guardian, August 2009.


However, the only reason this case made national news is because thankfully it is rare.

Pedestrians and cyclists are far more at risk from drivers than they are from one another. Bicycles typically kill around two pedestrians a year; motor vehicles on average kill about two pedestrians a day. Even on pavements, those on foot are far more at risk from motor vehicles than bicycles. Motor vehicles kill pedestrians on pavements or verges at a rate of about 40 a year. In contrast, this latest incident is only the third time a cyclist has killed a pedestrian on the pavement this decade.

Yet unlike Darren Hall's jail term, drivers who kill often get off lightly. In fact, some don't even get to go to court. Last week, the family of 25-year-old Anthony Maynard who was killed when he was hit by a van as he cycled near Henley, felt they had been left no other option than to start civil proceedings against the driver who killed their son. In this case the driver claimed he didn't see Anthony because the sun was in his eyes and the CPS decided not to prosecute.

Cyclists, like pedestrians, are far more likely to be the victims than the perpetrators of irresponsible road behaviour

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:33 AM

Can anyone who still has a problem with cyclists please go back and read Keith's last two posts very carefully.

Can I also add that every time I cycle instead of drive, I am not using petrol or creating pollution. I am taking up less space on our overcrowded roads. I am far less likely to kill or hurt others. I am getting some exercise. And I don't feel the urge to trade in my bike for a newer, better model every two years! Need I go on? The point is I believe cyclists should be celebrated not demonised - we are part of the solution, not part of the problem. The sooner more of you (disabilities notwithstanding) got up off your arses and joined us the better. But like most of us already out there do - cycle with care.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:51 AM

Spleen Cringe says, "But like most of us already out there do - cycle with care".
Well, in my view, MOST cyclist who ride on the same piece of pavement as me do not cycle with care!
They ride far too fast, and far too close!

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:53 AM

Spot on Mr Cringe but as we are talking about cyclists breaking the rules may I add another couple of points?

Cyclists who ride DANGEROUSLY on pavements deserve to be prosecuted. Those who are aggressive to other road users are a pain in the arse. The vast majority of cyclists however are sane sensible people who will never cause an accident, hit a pedestrian or do any damage to anyone. The are pedestrians who walk in cycle lanes. The advance stop area at traffic signals, designed to help cyclists is, 90% of the time, taken up with cars. Cars and Lorries park in cycle lanes, forcing cyclists to ride on the pavement or into the traffic in an area narrowed by inconsiderate drivers.

There are arseholes in all walks of life. Why are people singling out and trying to demonise cyclists for heavens sake? The sooner the oil is too scarce for people to run their cars, including me, the better as far as I am concerned.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 09:08 AM

Dave & Cringe - no-one is (or at I am not) trying to demonize cyclists.

We're complaining about asshole (or arsehole, if you prefer) cyclists who appear to be on the increase exponentially.

They should be cited and fined the same as the operators os other vehicles that violate existing rules & statutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 09:30 AM

Of course dangerous cyclists should be prosecuted - as should dangerous drivers. Trouble is, most dangerous driving or cycling I see isn't prosecuted because it doesn't take place when a copper is around. So the issue isn't really about prosecution, it's about taking personal responsibility. And whilst everyone needs to do this, the larger, heavier and faster your vehicle the more pressing the need...

Also I think some of the road rules around cycling may be different in the UK and the US. For instance, cyclists moving to the front of a queue of stationary cars at a traffic light is perfectly ok in the UK as far as I am aware - although again it is sensible to do this safely. And as for the green box at junctions with a bike symbol painted on it, oi motorists! That's for us. Keep out!

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 10:20 AM

"...personal responsibiity".

This is supremely meaningless.    Congratulations.    Nobody claims both cyclists and drivers --and pedestrians, even--should not take personal responsibility.   But personal responsibility includes obeying all rules of the road.   By all vehicles, including bicycles.

And staying off the sidewalk. Which is the subject here.

Also, everybody realizes bicyclists are more at risk from drivers than vice versa. Duh.

And nobody is advocating seriously that bicyclists should be punished for not obeying laws by being run over.

But it would be nice if bicyclists would actually stop for stop signs, for instance. Among other things, not stopping for stop signs is suicidal behavior on the part of bicyclists. But perhaps they're all immortal. In their own minds.

And some of us are actually sticking up for the rights of pedestrians to be safe from bicyclists running them over on the sidewalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 10:32 AM

Treat cyclists as more like pedestrians and less like motor vehicles.

The stop sign rule is to prevent motor vehicles colliding.
As you say, a cyclist would have to be suicidal to jump one into the path of an oncoming vehicle, so they don't.
That is not how cyclists tend to die.
Why does it matter to you so much that they keep to a rule not really aimed at them?

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 10:34 AM

"personal responsibility"

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 10:38 AM

We all also realize that bicyclists are more at risk from drivers than pedestrians are from bicyclists.   Again. duh.

That does not address the question which is the topic here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 10:39 AM

When I ride up to a stop sign, my main responsibility is to avoid a collision, not least because I would be the party killed or maimed.

If there is no danger of a collision, why should I stop?
I have to work hard for that kinetic energy in a way that drivers do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 12:04 PM

"...personal responsibiity".

This is supremely meaningless.    Congratulations.

Ron Davies, you have a way with words. And I don't particularly mean that as a compliment...

What's so "meaningless" about taking personal responsibility for your actions? Surely it's a cornerstone of any halfway civilised society, and the absence of this is one of the reasons we're in the mess we're in?

As a cyclist I never cycle on the pavement ("sidewalk"). EVER. The pavement is not there for me - the road is. And bastards in cars with no spatial awareness, no patience, no common sense and no driving skills make the road a dangerous place for me. So excuse me if I bang on about it... I cycle to work every day. I never see cyclists on the pavement though I see plenty on the road. In fact, generally, the only cyclists on the pavement are young children, which is legal in the UK... or those sorts of young men who happen to own bikes who, frankly, I wouldn't dignify with the title "cyclists".

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 12:29 PM

Treat cyclists as more like pedestrians and less like motor vehicles.

Nonsense.

Legally, cyclists ARE vehicles and must obey all laws of the road & etc. that apply to vehicles.

You can wish otherwise all you want, Keith, but it's bullshit. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Midchuck
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 01:05 PM

Point 1: What Greg F. said (perfectly and simply) in his 12:29 post.

Point 2: As you say, a cyclist would have to be suicidal to jump one into the path of an oncoming vehicle, so they don't. BUT I have SEEN them do it, numerous times, often when I was the driver of, or a passenger in, the motor vehicle in question. The cyclists didn't die, in any of those cases, because the motorist (who had the right of way) slammed on the brakes, and we scraped ourselves off the dashboard after the cyclist had gone on. Are you saying that I hallucinated all those cases? (Not to say that motor vehicle drivers don't run red lights or stop signs; but cyclists do a lot more often, in proportion to the number of them on the road.)

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 03:55 PM

Not sayin' your hallucinating, Midchuck, but in all my years as both a driver and a cyclist I've never experienced this. Have I been lucky or have you been unlucky?

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:09 PM

Perhaps you just haven't been paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:21 PM

As a cyclist, I come to a full (foot down) stop for all red lights and to a track stand at stop signs. I only put my foot down if there is oncoming traffic. Anyone who feels he has a right to ride through a stop sign is a moron.

BTW, those cuts in sidewalks/pavements at intersections are for wheelchairs, not bicycles.

A problem that I don't think has been addressed is that many cyclists are too young to have taken drivers' training and gotten a license (I assume that something of the sort is required in the UK as well as in the US), so they may be honestly ignorant of the basic rules of the road. A think that makes me cringe is seeing someone ride the wrong way, facing traffic. Besides the fact that they are in my space, any collision involves the sum of the velocities of the vehicles involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:41 PM


Legally, cyclists ARE vehicles and must obey all laws of the road & etc. that apply to vehicles.
But why?
Bicycles and pedestrians are slow, unprotected and vulnerable.
Drivers are seatbelted, airbag protected and inside a steel sarcophagus with a powerful engine.

Cyclists and pedestrians are both at the mercy of motor vehicles.
Motor vehicles mince them both with impunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:47 PM

A think that makes me cringe is seeing someone ride the wrong way, facing traffic. Besides the fact that they are in my space, any collision involves the sum of the velocities of the vehicles involved.

They are in your space whichever way round they are.
Sorry. How dare they!?

There is less likely to be a collision when the bike can see the motor.
His life depends on it.
The driver is oblivious and impervious, and the relative velocity is little different because bikes are so very comparatively slow.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 07:11 PM

"There is less likely to be a collision when the bike can see the motor. I assume that means that, in addition to running stop signs and riding on the wrong side of the road, you don't have a mirror on your bicycle?

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM

But why?

WHY? Because that's the way it fuckin'is, Keith. Grow up.

You're presenting as a perfect asshole, so likely you're also an asshole cyclist.

With any luck, you'll be cited and fined.

And then you'll still be an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:49 AM

The way it is?
A bicycle is a vehicle like a car or a truck?
That is wrong.
A bicycle is a pedestrian on spindly wheels, exposed and vulnerable and no threat to anyone.

When you walk the sidewalk, you are in much greater danger of being hurt or killed by a vehicle than a bicycle, so why single out the almost harmless cycle?
Walkers and riders are the vulnerable victims
Vehicles are the impervious mincing machines that prey on them, and you are the drivers who want to persecute them because they can sometimes pass you and that threatens your manhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Bicycles on the sidewalk
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 08:23 AM

Kevin, why don't you enlighten us all about the difference between Christian[sic] and Muslim cyclists?