Origins: Rose of Tralee - anything to add ...?

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee; anything to add ...?
From: AKS
Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:24 AM

About the Roses:

The 'Tralee one' in Levy collection seems to be a completely different song, both lyrics and tune aren't the same as in Mullchinock's Rose. Could 'she' still be the same Mary, what d'ya think?

Levy gives 4 publications before 1923 of The Rose of Allandale (with 3 a's) by Charles Jefferys (lyr) and Samuel Nelson (mus). So it seems to be PD, provided the two gentlemen have died before 1929. (As you say McGrath, I also did find it suspicious in the first place, but now we know better)

greets AKS

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee; anything to add ...?
From: Stewie
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 05:40 PM

McGrath,

'Rose of Allendale' appeared in Part II 'Old Songs from Rottingdean' of Bob Copper's 'Early to Rise: A Sussex Boyhood' in 1976. Part II of that book completed the publication of the Copper family songbook that was begun in Bob Copper's 2 previous books - 'A Song for All Seasons' and 'Songs & Southern Breezes'. I don't know if that was the first publication of the song. It has 3 minor differences to the text you gave - 'highland cot' for 'highland home', 'lour' for 'glower' and 'quivering sail' for 'shivering sail'.

Regards, Stewie.

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee; anything to add ...?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 03:12 PM

Or Greenhaus and Greenhouse. Or Kevin and Coemhghen if we're going for alternative ways of spelling the same name.

As I said, I had thought it'd be in there somewhere. Most other songs worth singing seem to be. But a copyright like Nelson/Jeffreys sounds suspiciously like a rip-off copyright on an existing song.HFA style. Maybe someone out there has more info?

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee; anything to add ...?
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 07:20 AM

Type Tralee in the Forum QuickSearch to find a few previous threads.

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee; anything to add ...?
From: AKS
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 02:04 AM

On The Corries' 'Silver Collection' the Rose of Allendale is given to be by Nelson/Jeffreys/arr by B/W and the two Irish Roses of A. that I have (one by Mary Black) are trad, melody being slightly different from the Scottish one.

Moreover, I've seen Rose of Tralee been mentioned to be by E.M. Spencer & C.W. Glover (words and music).

Another couple of 'Scarborough Fairs by PS' or what is this all about, anybody know??

AKS on a grey Monday morning

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee; anything to add ...?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 11:13 PM

Ah, McGrath-- Rose of Allandale (with three A's) is in the DT.
To find it, the simplest way is to search for
[Rose od Al*] to cover possible alternate spellings.
Like McGraw and McGrath.
(the square brackets indicate a phrase;
the asterisk is a wild card, representing any combination of letters.

Subject: Lyr Add: ROSE OF ALLANDALE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 08:00 PM

A song that in some ways parallels the Rose if Tralee, (though it is in so sense a variant of that song),and that I'm curious about, is the Rose of Allendale.

The heroine here is also called Mary, some of the action takes place in far flung places (Africa as against India with the Rose of Yralee), and my gut feeling is that the Rose of Allendale isn't meant to be there in the flesh, but as a picture and a memory, as withn the Rose of Tralee in Vin Garbutt's priest's verse. (though I could be wrong on that)

But I haven't a clue who wrote it and when, and if it was inspired by the Rose of Tralee. I think it's probably Scottish, or possibly North of England rather than Irish in origin.

Rather surprisingly it's not in the Digital Tradition, so here are the verses I've got:

The morn was fair, the skies were clear,
No breath came o'er the lea,
when Mary left her highland home,
and wandered forth with me
Though flowers decked the mountainside,
and fragrance filled the vale
By far the fairest flower there
was the Rose of Allendale.

(Cho)The Rose of Allendale, sweet Rose of Allendale
By far the sweetest flower there was the Rose of Allendale.

Whene'er I wandered, east or west,
Though fate began to glower
A solace still she was to me
In sorrows lonely hour
When tempests lashed our lonely barque
And rent her shivering sail
One maiden form withstood the storm
Twas the Rose of Allendale

And when my fevered lips were parched
On Afric's burning sands
She whispered hopes of happiness
And tales of distant lands.
My life had been a wilderness
unblessed by fortune's gale,
Had fate not linked my lot to her's,
The Rose of Allendale.

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee; anything to add ...?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 09:23 PM

Here's what Vin Garbutt has to say in the notes to his CD Bandalised, where he sings the Rose and does it justice, with three verses that aren't often heard (at least one of which he wrote himself, and one he didn't, and I'm not sure about the one in between, but I'm pretty sure that is Vin's as well). I think the story is as moving as the one behind Spancil Hill:

"William Mulchinoc was a blind old man when he wrote the Rose for his childhood sweethear Mary O'Connor. She was a servant girl, and his parents, disapproving of their son's affection for someone so lowly, sent him off to become an officer in the British Army. While he was serving in India, Mary died of consumption.

"William never married, and never forgot his Rose of Tralee

"I (that is, Vin Garbutt) was given the India verse by a priest in London, and I wrote the last verse because I thought William deserved a mention."

And here are the three extra verses he sings (the others are in the Digital Tradition - and I don't think even Harry Fox will claim they aren't Public Domain):

On the far plains of India, mid war's distant thunder Her beauty was solace and comfort to me And all for the truth in her eyes ever dawning I'm lonesome tonight for the Rose of Tralee As chill autumn breezes, their promises keeping Sweep in through my window, my blind eyes can see Those visions of manhood its heartache providing And parents denying the Rose of Tralee. She was lovely and fair, I was young and I was foolish To think that a bride to me Mary could be Ah no, though her heart was won, from her I parted And left broken hearted the Rose of Tralee.

Subject: Rose of Tralee; anything to add ...?
From: AKS
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 05:09 PM

Hello again folk-folks! I was wondering the other day whether there could be any details & facts added here at MC to the story of 'The Rose of Tralee' (http://www.iol.ie/~rose/)? How about't? I really do like stories - like the one of Spancill Hill - behind songs.

AKS from Joensuu, Pohjois-Karjala, Finland

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee--additional verse
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 08:23 PM

Mick
Where d'you get all that info from?. I'm always interested in the "stories" behind the songs
Mick

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee--additional verse
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 08:13 PM

I must admit that when I saw the additional verse some time back I found it hard to accept it as part of the original song - given the abrupt transition in time. But the more I look at it the more I feel comfortable.

The new verse has very similar sentiments and phrasing to one of the verses in Rose of Allendale - and maybe some others. Are they roughly contemporary songs?

Regards
John

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee--additional verse
From: Brakn
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 05:37 AM

Also, it is said that Mulchinock was a republican Protestant who contributed to the Republican paper "The Nation". Mary died of tuberculosis.

Mick Bracken

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee--additional verse
From: Brakn
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 05:14 AM

The song was about William Pembroke Mulchinock and Mary O'Connor.

There are a couple versions of the song's story

William was involved (not directly) with a murder at an election meeting in Tralee, and then took off to be a war correspondent in India. It was at the time of the Indian mutiny. When he came back to Tralee, he was having a drink one day when a funeral passed. It was Mary O'Connor's. He then married someone else and went to America. The marriage broke up, he returned to Tralee and was buried beside Mary.

Alternatively, Mulchinock's father was of high rank in the British Army and regarded his son's love affair with Mary O'Connor as a scandal. He arranged for his son to be posted to India where William was severely injured and blinded when a field gun exploded. Mary O'Connor died of a broken heart not knowing what had happened to her William.

The pure crystal fountain is at Skannagh Cross, which I presume is near Tralee.

I found the third verse in an old magazine.

Regards Mick Bracken

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee--additional verse
From: Ferrara
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 10:32 PM

Just to make my last post clear. I strongly suspect the original song had two verses, but the third verse may be a fairly early addition.

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee--additional verse
From: Ferrara
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 10:30 PM

This verse was entered in a forum thread some time ago:

In the far fields of India, 'mid war's dreadful thunders
Her voice was a solace and comfort to me
But the chill hand of death has now rent us asunder
I'm lonely tonight for the Rose of Tralee

Try a forum search on Rose of Tralee for more info (the Forum Search doesn't work on my computer, I had saved the extra verse in my text copy of the song) but I'm pretty sure no source was given for this verse. I'm pleased to learn that it isn't in Levy's sheet music, because it's pretty morbid compared to the first two verses and hits you like a hammer at the end of the song. I'm glad to have a clear conscience about leaving it out.

Not being in the sheet music doesn't mean too much, in one sense. Copyrights were violated right and left and this kind of parlor song was shamelessly pirated and revised. So take your pick. - Rita F

Subject: RE: Rose of Tralee--additional verse
From: Bruce O.
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:58 PM

She doesn't die in the 1870 copy in the Levy sheet music collection, box 134, #089.

Subject: Rose of Tralee--additional verse
From: Dan
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 06:44 PM

My brother told me that Rose of Tralee has a final verse wherein she dies or has died? Is that right? Is it a legitimate verse or an add-on? How does it go?

Subject: Rose of Tralee
From: Brack&
Date: 08 Sep 98 - 07:49 PM

Just noticed that on the DT this song has a verse missing. Here it is.

In the far fields of India, 'mid wars dreadful thunders
Her voice was a solace and comfort to me
But the chill hand of death has now rent us asunder
I'm lonely tonight for the Rose of Tralee