 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Pedants be damned
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 06 Dec 13 - 04:51 PM http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115817/stephen-fry-responds-grammar-pedants |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MartinRyan Date: 06 Dec 13 - 04:59 PM Pedants be dammed, I say! Regards |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 06 Dec 13 - 05:32 PM Hillary Kelly failed to distinguish between grammar pedantry and 'punctuation' pedantry. ☺ Shame! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Dec 13 - 06:04 PM Whaddayamean, Bill? Are you saying that punctuation ain't grammar? I think that grammar, spelling, and punctuation are important. However, I hate it when pedant's attack another person's grammar in lieu of addressing the writer's ideas. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Gibb Sahib Date: 06 Dec 13 - 06:22 PM Off topic, but ever see "Stephen Fry's America"? He drives around the states making cynical comments about really nice people, mopes the whole time and complains about how people want to have fun (but he doesn't), and how the weather is too nice, the scenery and people too beautiful. He "visits" each state and half the time, instead of seeing what the place/culture has to offer, sits in a coffeeshop, reads books he could read any time (back home), and writes whiny things in his journal. Then, towards the end, he spends an entire episode running around Las Vegas - the most stereotypical tourist site for Brits and maybe the least representative of "America" - with gay strippers on some kind of scavenger hunt in the fake LV landscape. Who'd ever think that a trip to every freakin state of the enormous and diverse country of USA could be so damn boring? Well, Stephen Fry made it so! So, like USA's late Andy Rooney, I'd expect Fry to be able to whine and criticize from *any* position, against anyone! He's a pro. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 06 Dec 13 - 06:22 PM We proud pedants distinguish between grammar and punctuation.... otherwise, why have different words? Punctuation is an aid TO grammar. (Besides, someone had to say it.) (yes, I'm sure it's quite possible to find errors in MY efforts... that does not negate my tedious point.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:00 PM Well, you maid 2 pointz, mist a capital letter, screwed up an ellipsis, asserted that someone had to say it when in fact no one did, claim pedants are proud when most are just plane a$$holes and other, like, ya know, stuff. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Jeri Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:44 PM I'm not sure when things got standardized. If you read some old English (not "olde English" but old American English), spelling is all over the place, and other attributes of the written language are weird. The main point should be whether or not you can communicate. And no one is perfect. If you don't want a continuing pedantathon, zip it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:53 PM Yes, ma'am. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Jeri Date: 06 Dec 13 - 08:07 PM I was bitching more at Bill than you. I'm up for a good, old fashioned pedantathon, as long as I don't loose interest. (hehehe) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Dec 13 - 08:21 PM Steven Fry- I couldn't care less |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 13 - 09:10 PM You missed your period, Q. Naughty, naughty LOL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 06 Dec 13 - 09:10 PM Hahahahaa... be da lard dyin Jaysus yees all most and sundry got lots ta say what don't give two fucks from Tuesday. Shittin on a man what simply says leave me tha fuck alone. Pedantophiliacs be damned. And, lighten the fuck up eh? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:31 PM Bitching at BILL? He of the most gentle perdantic sort of nature? Ah well... good thing I have 2-3 very full days ahead and will likely lose track. Pedantry is often unrewarding. However, it can be fun! I got much of my attitude from this delightful tome. (yup... left off one capital- I often do in parentheses. I said you'd find some teeny flaws. And I never do even attempt to do classical, formal ellipsis. Them dots is just how I think. I even do that when using pen & paper. But I only asserted that *I* was a proud pedant, and insinuated that others were... (oops, dots again) not that other pedants were necessarily proud.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Jeri Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:45 PM Gentle bitching, Bill. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:58 PM Correcting somebody's grammar is rather petty. A REAL pedant only steps in when the actual facts are wrong. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Jeri Date: 06 Dec 13 - 11:28 PM Language exists for people to communicate ideas. I think complaining about whether there's subject/verb agreement or an apostrophe is out of place interferes with communication far more than the offenses. It halts conversations and subverts them. If what other people do bothers you, it's YOUR problem. Own it; don't try to make it other people's. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Mrrzy Date: 07 Dec 13 - 12:11 AM Love Bertie Wooster and Jeeves, too. "15 items or less" bothers me too. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Dec 13 - 01:21 AM A friend on another forum once posted "MGM, you're pedantry is legendary" -- I always took [or hoped] her error to have been a thematically intentional jest. I sometimes sign off posts here, when it is factual accuracy that is in question, with the mock qualification suffix OLP (Official Legendary Pedant). In fact, though, I agree with Guest above (10.58) that it's accuracy in facts that matters; language can take care of itself in its everlasting development. A few things irritate me, like an apostrophe before the final s of plural or 3rd person singular verbs, and [especially] in the possessive "its"; and 'are' for 'our': but I should never dream of posting to such effect. Anyhow, we pedants must stand together or we might lose our legendariness. We all rightly abhor racism, sexism, ageism ~~ surely Mudcatters are not going to tolerate pedantism in their midst! ~Michael~ OLP |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,musket Date: 07 Dec 13 - 03:15 AM Ok. The superfluous apostrophe gets my goat. Next time I see one on a large enough sign, I shall tether my goat to it. When I wrote regulatory reports and they were ready for publication, a person employed as a final editor used to get her hands on them and test them for plain English etc. I printed out one email she sent with her comments and put it on my wall. It said simply, "period outwith parentheses. " I offered to take a loaded pistol and bottle of whisky into the study. (Couldn't find any whiskey. ) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 07 Dec 13 - 06:07 AM We need a set of rules against pedantry. Any Mudcatter caught offending will be formally sentenced to writing 50 times "i musn't be no Pedant." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Pete Jennings Date: 07 Dec 13 - 07:01 AM Hang on a sec, Q missed a period?!! Is he pregnant? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 07 Dec 13 - 09:46 AM LOL Pete, I did a double take on that as well! I'm a terrible pedant. I squirm and grumble every time I see a mistake in print or on a sign. I even correct the newspaper with a red pen. How sick is that? But I have to admit that as a teacher of many decades, I've corrected thousands and thousands of pupils' essays, and often the most badly-written, atrociously punctuated and grammatically grim efforts have turned out to be the most vibrant, entertaining and expressive. I therefore try not to be a snob. Actually, I have a feeling that, since language evolves naturally, the redundant apostrophe will become standard for all plurals ending in 's'. People seem more at ease with 'banana's' than 'bananas'. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 07 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM I doubt that, Eliza, since it would make for new ambiguities on top of the existing ones. BTW, in Dutch an apostrophe is required for the plural of nouns ending in a long vowel: oma's, auto's. A radically reformed spelling of English, as phonetic as possible, may be considered. Other languages, notably Italian, did it when the time was more favourable. However, for writers there is no way past learning grammar. The tiny rest of grammar preserved in English written language should be defended; otherwise writing comprehensible texts will be more difficult and less flexible. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Will Fly Date: 07 Dec 13 - 10:35 AM People seem more at ease with 'banana's' than 'bananas'. A banana's what, Eliza? That's what I usually silently ask myself when I see that spelling... A banana's jockey shorts, erection, curvature, inclinations? :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 07 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM LOL Will! Banana's in their skin's. I saw a handwritten notice on a bit of cardboard last week, at the gate of a small-holding. It said 'Sprout's on Stalk's'. I ground my teeth all the way home. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Dec 13 - 12:47 PM "Keep off from the Grass" seen in Santa Fe some time ago. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: DMcG Date: 07 Dec 13 - 01:08 PM I don't get bothered by grammar or punctuation errors in general but it annoys me when it is on an official notice or similar company publications: hundreds or even more spent on preparation and publication and no-one thinks it worth the effort of checking it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Airymouse Date: 07 Dec 13 - 02:17 PM Lucky I, grammar comes naturally to me. When everyone is chanting,'two, four, six eight, who do we appreciate", I say to him or to her,"I'm right amn't I, it should be "WHOM do we appreciate." But he or she, as the sex may be, gives me only a puzzled look. Punctuation is quite another matter, and it's not just the tricky words like "chthonian" or "pilau" that trip me up. Put a "t" on "won",you get "wont", not "want". Put a "t" on "cover" you get "covert", not "co-vert", just like "coverture." I can pronounce "biscuit" and "triscuit" and "circuit", so why do I suddenly want to make "conduit" a three-syllable word? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Dec 13 - 02:56 PM Ah, Airy -- once you get on to the vagaries of English spelling, have you thought how you will go through a rough cough though? Enough to branch·of·tree your heavy head! ~M~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 07 Dec 13 - 03:38 PM I *can* write and speak reasonably well in English, American (no... don't... u no what I mean), Canuck, Maineac, Newf, Labradorian, Bluenose, engineering (technical), and a few others but my favourite is Kent County on accounta that's where my heart is. I learnt how ta talk Good Ol Kent County Boy around a lotta camp fires where I heard tales that would most assuredly be bland, nay, banal, in fact, in Her Royal Majesty's English. Hmmm… perhaps an example?… We were following a new trail made by lumbering operations which proved to be a shortcut to the lake. The ice on the lake was thick enough to carry our weight close to the shore where it was fed from a stream of which the nearby headwaters emanated from springs. I knew about the springs because I had seen open water on the stream near the lake as we progressed along the trail. My analysis of the situation was that the ice might not be as thick away from the shoreline we arrived at due to the fact that the water velocity of the stream feeding the lake slows to a point where the colloidal suspension carried precipitates under the force of gravity, thus allowing the colder water to become ice more quickly. Indeed, the stream water was not frozen at the delta, that being some 20 metres from us, lending further credence to my conclusions. One of our party determined the ice thickness nearby by sounding the ice with the use of a length of a branch from a fallen maple tree. Essentially, he pounded the ice with the butt end of the maple branch and assessed the thickness by the sound. There was very little reverberation and he therefore concluded it was safe to journey forth. I was sceptical as it was only the middle of the month of December but, even after my objections and explanation, the general consensus was to carry on. I reluctantly agreed but said I would be the last of our troop to venture onto the lake ice and suggested that the man who sounded the ice take the lead. At approximately one hundred metres from shore, the lead snowmobile encountered ice which was not of sufficient thickness to bear it's weight. The ice gave way and the snowmobile sank. Thank goodness the operator, a Mr. David Owens, was able to cling to the edge of the ice until were extricated him and got him back to shore. We built a fire which we were able to start using birch bark and Spruce tree bottom branches devoid of needles. Needless to say, we were all appreciative of the fact the Mr. Owens was safe and sound, as was he. We broke open libations in celebration as Mr. Owens' and his clothing dried beside the fire. Unfortunately, the snowmobile will not be able to be extracted until the ice has become thick enough to bear the weight of a vehicle with a winch. His wife was not in a good mood when he explained to her the events of the day as his snowmobile was an expensive purchase. I hope he learned from this experience but he is well known for his rash bravado. We was up ta the lake on sleds early on eh? Jus afore Kissmeass. Found a new skidder road what takes ya right ta tha lake in jig time. Davey… ya knows Davey Owens eh? Crazy fucker he is! I says no way I am takin my sled across tha lake on early ice and, besides, I seen open water onna brook jus back a ways eh? I even points at the open water at the enda tha brook like, oh, twenny yards away, an says fer him at look at that an think fer a fuckin minute right? He says she's fine an thumps er with a stick. Sounded perfect but, like I said eh, I seen open water on tha brook just back up a ways so I figger she's spring fed right? Sure it's gonna be thick close at shore near the delta once she drops her mud eh? Right? Eh? So I says, you go first…. matter of fact, all a youse go first and I'll sit here n have a beer n watch. So, I'm sittin back watchin Daveyboy head across and FUCK ME if he don't go down! Next thing, all we see is his sorry ass on the edge of a big hole. We got his ass out and fired up a birch fer ta dry him up and broke out the Mooze. He was some fuckin lucky an he knows it. His sled is toast at least until we can get back there with sumpin heavy. The little woman was pissed, man! Lotta coin got wet. That boy'll never learn. Dumb as a fuckin post. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: frogprince Date: 07 Dec 13 - 04:26 PM gnu, I'm compelled to admit that I was somewhat amused by the redundant presentation of the equivalent narrative in alternative linguistic traditions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:34 PM I'll take that, froggy, with appreciation and humble gratitude. Matter a fact, it's a damn site better than the the shit that will rain down from some of the high and mighty whose prose don't stink. Either that or such and same will actually find it somewhat amusing but would never stoop to actaully acknowledging it in the false assumption that their (non) opinion matters two fucks from Tueesday to anyone but themselves. If my dyslexia has raised it's ugly head in anything I have said, PM under the subject "I object" and I'll delete it unread. I am a poet as well I can. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:50 PM Am I the only one who noticed "sufficient thickness to bear it's weight"? (I just had to validate my Pedant's License.) Gnu's point in the two versions of the story, however, is clear enough. "Good" speech and writing style depends upon the setting, the occasion, and the speaker/writer's intention. And for most occasions common courtesy is more important than proving one's superiority. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:53 PM Or even 'licence' Uncle Dave! (Just teasing) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 07 Dec 13 - 06:22 PM I saw it, Dave, but wondered if I dared comment. You solved my problem. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 07 Dec 13 - 06:58 PM When I see a sign such as "Burger and Fry's" I go batty. It's the dumbing down of America that gets to me, not the mistake itself. \ Another is "I brought my car to Meineke".That would only be proper if you were there. While we are on it, : I saw the EGGZIT sign! I was EXpecially relieved. It's cold in Anartica.
Britian's got talent. NO! Britain HAS talent. Is it laziness or ignorance? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MartinRyan Date: 07 Dec 13 - 07:17 PM There's a famous hostelry in the Galway village of Clarinbridge which once belonged to a man called Paddy Burke. Not surprisingly, it was/is always known as Paddy Burke's (the pub is silent, so to speak). In recent years, after several changes of ownership, the main sign on the frontage announces "Paddy Burkes". There's a large car-park to one side of the pub - which now proudly bears the title "Paddy Burkes's Car-park". And I can see why… Regards |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Dec 13 - 12:30 AM No, Kendall. This is a national difference. We find the American insistence on "has" where we would say "has [or 's] got" rather irritatingly picky. NB spelling of Britain, BTW. ~M~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 08 Dec 13 - 03:12 AM Yeah. Burger and fry's winds me up too. It should be burger and chip's, surely? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: DMcG Date: 08 Dec 13 - 05:09 AM Another minor irritation is deliberate or habitual misuse of words such as when, for instance, a hotel calls me a 'guest'. No, I'm a paying customer which means I can expect to get what I pay for. A guest suggests I should be content with what I am given. Its the mirror image of describing patients and so on as customers to try to influence how they think of themselves |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Will Fly Date: 08 Dec 13 - 06:36 AM Well, that's quite a long-standing custom, isn't it? We've had guesthouses for years - and a Gasthaus is just the same thing in Germany. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 08 Dec 13 - 07:06 AM We clean a holiday barn once a week for a very posh couple. The owner was most put out when I referred to the 'guests' as 'punters'. I love that word, and once disgraced myself at church when preparing the service books and remarked that we probably wouldn't get many 'punters' as the weather was so cold. Frosty looks and meaningful silences all round. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Will Fly Date: 08 Dec 13 - 07:30 AM I was once roundly told off by someone on Mudcat - some years ago - for using the word "punters" when talking about audiences in clubs and pubs. I was told it was demeaning to them. Well, the punters never heard us talking about them. It was (and still is) a word very much in use in the music business. So I disagreed with that rather pedantic comment. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Triplane Date: 08 Dec 13 - 07:42 AM The pedants. ARE revolting , let them create ache "Alons enfant de la Patrie let jour de gloire est arrive/" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: akenaton Date: 08 Dec 13 - 08:25 AM Shurely shome mishtake? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Dec 13 - 12:44 PM From Webster's Dictionary- punter- a player who punts [football] punter- a person who propels or travels in a punt. What peculiar usages these English have. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Dec 13 - 01:25 PM Q - A punt is a colloquial word here for a bet. So a punter was originally a racegoer; and the word extended to cover people who choose to attend or participate in other events. I can just about see why some fussy churchgoers might just consider it a somewhat disrespectful, slang or over-idiomatic way to refer to the congregation at what to them is a sacred occasion, tho it must have been obvious that Eliza intended no disrespect; but Will's usage was perfectly colloquially acceptable, surely? ~M~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: akenaton Date: 08 Dec 13 - 01:35 PM Quite right M, "punters" are bookmakers customers, but I don't believe bookmaking is legal in the US. Racecourses operate a totalisator system. So the odds are completely determined by how much money goes on each horse or greyhound. This system cuts out much of the cheating at sports events where betting takes place. A "punt" is the Irish for one pound sterling, and the word was applied to those who "invested" their punts with "Slippery Pat" :0) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Dec 13 - 02:04 PM The usage (punter) in England does not extend to North America as yet. I read a lot of fiction, a good deal of it UK, so I am aware of its usage there. Got, gotten; The OED has the usages to which you object. They seem to have become rare in the UK, but persist in North America. This was brought up in another thread some time ago. |
