BS: Pedants be damned

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 10:16 AM

Squirrels protect their nuts by burying them.


Why do squirrels swim on their backs?
To keep their nuts dry.


100

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 12:49 PM

musket   LOL .. brings back my college memories

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 12:51 PM

forMIDABLE. jewlery

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 01:16 PM

ped·ant n.
1. One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.
2. One who exhibits one's learning or scholarship ostentatiously.
3. Obsolete A schoolmaster.

"Undue attention" depends on the context. A shop owner must criticize an emplyee who writes "Potatoe's 89cents a pound" for reasons of orthography; a customer had better ponder on the price.

Dan Quayle did do some politics, didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: gnu
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 03:50 PM

"refridgerator"

Ah... fridge, right?

Actually, Ebbie, I am being refriggerated at the moment. Minus WTF? here in both F n C and even K and it's windy ta boot! And it ain't really cold yet. That's come Febuary month. Tank da lard jAYsus fer me inside plumb er I'd aft ta skin a skerwl fer ta make a powch fer me own nuts.

Apedants unite! We shall overcome tiranny. Er not. Ooo gives two fucks from Tuesday?

BTW, I spelt 'Ooh' wrong just to piss off the pednts.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 05:23 PM

Might be time for you to start on a gnu tack, eh, new?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,laptopgnu
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 07:03 PM

Nah, MGM. My tack is just fine. I'm jus sayin eh? I dunno why pedants not only attempt to edify, which I DO appreciate, but also feel the need of demonstration of their 'superiorty'. Especially when they are, to the actual letter, absolutely incorrect.

To wit, on a thread a while back, I offered 'try and do' vs 'try to do'. Nobody can 'try and do'. It's grammatically impossible and no amount of common usage or any other bullshit arguements can convince a sane pedant otherwise. Some pedants who offer such and same say it is okay for them to utter such travesties which assault not only language but also basic logic in defense of only their own self proclaimed superiorty.

So, when someone posts 'try and do' instead of 'try to do', I cringe but I don't tell them they are illiterate or illogical. N at dere, buddy? Dat is good enough fer da girls I goes wit. Roight? Eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 07:56 PM

A Hawk is an Eagle among Crows. hehehehe

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 07:58 PM

That is not aimed at anyone.

It was 2 degrees above zero this morning here. They say it's going to get cold this weekend. May have to button up my vest.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 04:24 AM

Nobody can 'try and do'

If I make an attempt at something which turns out to be successful, I both 'try' and 'do'.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Airymouse
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 01:39 PM

I sing old-time songs,because I really am an old timer. I am stuck with all sorts of pedantic grammatical baggage. Does anyone believe any of these rules?
You can stand in the dock (in court), but you can't stand ON a dock unless it's a dry dock, because a dock is where the water is. Hence "dockside" but not "wharfside."
You can't be "more specific", because you can't "more specify" something.It's a false comparative.
It's OK to say "the delay, DUE TO the thunderstorm, lasted 3 hours", but "due to" is adjectival, so it's not OK to say "the game was delayed, due to the thunderstorm. (You need "because of".)
You TAKE the basket to the picnic and you BRING it back. In mud cat parlance "bring back my bonnie TO me."
As an old-timer I also find myself defending constructions to which others object. Anyone object to these:
It's a RIGHT pretty day.("Right" means "very", just as in "right reverend Dimesdale.")I sang it WRONG."wrong" means "wrongly" just as in "the divine right of kings to govern wrong".
The house needs PAINTED. The infinitive is understood and hence omitted just as in "The dog wants out" or " I now pronounce you man and wife."

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 04:20 PM

Another abused word; Unique. It can not be qualified. Something is either unique or it is not. No middle ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 04:29 PM

Kendall, that reminds me of a quote I read in my local paper the other week. I laughed until I couldn't laugh any more.

It had to do with a commissioner of something or another who was commenting on a misdemeanor that has largely gone unpunished even though the law is clear on the matter.

He said, Well, I just hope they will literally throw the book at him.

gigglegigglegigglegiggle

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 05:52 PM

I hate to hear "eye-dillic' when it should be 'id-illic'. And as for 'haitch' ...aaaaaaggghhhh!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 07:31 PM

I give it him- terrible, init?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 08:05 PM

Pedantry about grammar and spelling is a bit irrelevant, and tends to trivialize things.

"Pedantry" about facts is another thing, because facts matter. And I include getting names right as a fact. For example when people write about Ghandi I tend to point out that the name is Gandhi. Getting it wrong there seems to me a kind of discourtesy, just as it would be to refer to Mandella or Mandala - which I have no doubt is going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 09:19 PM

Ebbie said: "I know we often say the 'fridge' but do you that it is therefore OK to spell it 'refridgerator'? "

MY pedantic peeve is directed at those who abbreviate it 'frig'.... Google tells you that ignorance can be embarrassing as well as blissful.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 09:30 PM

> "Pedantry" about facts is another thing, because facts matter.

That pretty much puts the rest of it into perspective.

Except for the growing number of those (some with PhDs) who insist that "fact" and "opinion" are synonymous.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:16 AM

Very true. But bear in mind that opinions are usually supported by the perception of facts. Very few people go out of their way to verify what they consider to be fact. A holder of a doctorate in canine orgasms may consider their thesis to be the fact of the day but tomorrow YouTube May have footage of a Labrador laying back enjoying a cigarette whilst a poodle nips to the bathroom.

Or some such bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:34 AM

Or even lying back?

Aaaahhhh! — pedantry! Nonononono - forget I said that!!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:04 PM

Having been reared on a farm, the image that comes to my mind when someone speaks of 'laying' is of a farm chicken. However, the word is so commonly misused I think there is little doubt that it will make it into the dictionary as an alternative, rather sooner than later. There are thousands, perhaps, of such distortions that have become correct through such process. Think of 'decimate', for one example.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:58 PM

'decimate':- one tenth of a friend.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 08:22 PM

Ah, but from which end?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 08:47 PM

Opinions actually are a variety of fact - they are facts about the person holding them, and if they are misstated by another person, or for that matter by the person themselves, it is quite relevant to try to put the record straight.

Grammar and syntax and spelling also of course involve facts, but almost always facts irrelevant to a discussion, unless the discussion is actually about grammar and syntax or spelling - and most of the time pretty insignificant facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 11:38 PM

Grammar and syntax and spelling also of course involve facts, but almost always facts irrelevant to a discussion .......

Unless, of course, the misuse of grammar, syntax and spelling leads to ambiguity, in which case the facts may be misinterpreted.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:04 AM

Michael. You excel yourself.

I put two other red rags to pedants in that post. Can you spot those too?



Lay lady lay
Lay across my big wood kennel

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:39 AM

'Lie/Lay'

Having not even bothered to check with the dictionaries on this, the rest of this post is unfounded! However ...

Since this term will certainly predate the standardisation of spellings, and may well represent different accents, it seems to me extremely likely that actually these are the same word, and in normal usage I'd regard making a distinction between them as empty pedantry, as opposed to useful pedantry.

However, in the case of 'I told her a pack of lies and she decided to lie back': that's one of the few cases where it matters whether she became supine or vocal.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:42 AM

That whole scenario seems fishy to me. I reckon supine because she knew her plaice.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 11:20 AM

Here in Norfolk, 'lay' is used for preference. For example, "He's now laying on his bed," or "Hev a lay-down; dew, yew'll feel better." I believe it's because the word 'lie' has such strong connotations of dishonesty and deception. The meaning of 'lie' is so powerful that people are reluctant to use it even when it would be correct to do so. The two forms, 'lay' and 'lie' have therefore been strictly segregated according to their meaning, and 'lay' preferred subconsciously for having no dishonesty attached to it. If one wants to accuse someone of not telling the truth, one would say,"Yer looooooiiiing!" or, "Doon't yew looooiiii ter me!" with the word stressed and prolonged enormously. So when one meets it in the innocuous, "Lie down.", it grates and jars. Just a theory of mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:00 PM

"She knew her Plaice". LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 01:51 PM

She was only the fishmonger's daughter, but she knew her plaice!

or,

She was only the fishmonger's daughter,
But she lay (lied?) on the slab, and said "Fillet!"

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:39 PM

On a "scale: of 1 to 10. 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:44 PM

And, talking of 'scales'. Can we please note that the astrology sign often known as "The Scales" (Libra) is no such thing. It actually represents a 'twin pan balance'

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:27 AM

LOL Nigel! Sounds rather like a large bra! (I'm Libra!)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:16 AM

I suppose that's better than being a T-cup... or a Z-bra.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:37 AM

Gosh, Bill, I never knew that the words "teacup" and "zebra" required dash-expurgation.

How attitudes change!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 12:21 PM

"A holder of a doctorate in canine orgasms may consider their(?) thesis to be the fact of the day ......"

Multiple Personality Disorder?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Airymouse
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:13 PM

About this "lie" vs "lay" business. As the word, "layabout," suggests, this issue has been with us for some time. I think there are books that are important, but not great literature (e.g., Wizard of Oz,Uncle Tom's Cabin, and Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy.) One of these is Richard Dana's, Two Years before the Mast,which became important, because it was a valuable source of information about California, for those who wanted to participate in the gold rush of 1849. Dana had spent those two years doubling the cape and visiting California. In Dana's book he mentions that the sailors talk about "laying out" in the sun. For what it's worth (not much I suspect) his conclusion is that the saliors' use is an ellipsis with "their bodies" being left out, but understood. BTW Mark Twain uses an incident from Two Years before the Mast in his acceptance speech at Oxford. Twain's use alone gives Dana's book importance, because Twain's speech is one of the best acceptance speeches ever given. OFF TOPIC In my country it has suddenly become popular to use "gravitas" (weighed down with eggs) as if it means "importance". If I had used "gravitas" for "importance" above, would you have pictured an old book covered with insect eggs?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:53 PM

Airymouse, Wikipedia says that

Gravitas was one of the Roman virtues, along with pietas, dignitas and virtus. It may be translated variously as weight, seriousness and dignity, also importance, and connotes a certain substance or depth of personality.

I don't know where you get the bit about eggs.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:18 PM

"Albeit". Use this stupid, pretentious word in my presence and you risk a fat lip, I can tell you. Also, the use of the abominable "prior to" instead of "before" (a lovely word if ever there was one) is a mortal sin. Finally, I went to Morrisons the other day with my turkey order form, on which I was able to "pre-order" my Kelly Bronze. I informed the young woman at Customer Services that I did not wish to pre-order a turkey: I wished to order one. She looked at me as though I'd gone bananas.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:05 AM

In my country it has suddenly become popular to use "gravitas" (weighed down with eggs) as if it means "importance". If I had used "gravitas" for "importance" above, would you have pictured an old book covered with insect eggs?
I think you're confusing:
'Gravitas' (weight/dignity) with 'Gravid' (weighed down with pregnancy/eggs)
As you can see, by carefully detailing each description they both have a relationship with weight (as with 'gravity')

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:25 AM

How does one go bananas Steve?

I'll tell you what, I've just been picked up for slipping a plural into a singular statement. Makes you think twice before writing anything on a thread about pedantry...

Which brings us back to the title of the thread..

Surely, this is about damning pedantry, not perpetuating the noise it makes?

Eyup, I use albeit.. It's my word of the month I'll have you know!

If anyone wishes to write contorted mangled sentences, I suggest you try the style guide I worked to when writing regulatory reports for publication. If you look at any Care Quality Commission inspection report, available on their website, you will notice the poor ruddy inspector has to avoid gender, leading to singular to plural being the order of the day. "One person told us of their experience. They spoke of their lack of access to ...Etc."   That's one inspector speaking with one person by the way. They won a plain English award during my time too.....

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:45 AM

The idiomatic use of plural pronouns 'they', 'their', &c, to represent the clumsy & laborious 'he or she', 'his or hers', is generally recognised as acceptable, as English lacks the useful impersonal pronoun like French 'on' or German 'mann'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:29 PM

"I informed the young woman at Customer Services that I did not wish to pre-order a turkey: I wished to order one. She looked at me as though I'd gone bananas".

Steve, I do hope you are not one of those pompous gits who delight in informing the checkout girl that "It's not a PIN number ...it's a PIN".

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:42 PM

The distinction is that a 'pre-order' is an order given before the item becomes actually available, for it to be supplied as and when it is available; an 'order' is, as name implies, an instruction to supply you with the item. A synonym for 'pre-order' could be 'reserve', but it would be less precise.

You were at fault, Steve, in blurring a valid distinction, which the young woman understood (even tho she might not have been able to articulate it); and you didn't.

You have nothing to sound so self-satisfied about in this particular exchange.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:57 PM

Just to clarify the "order" v "pre-order" issue ...

I deal all the time with a company in the US who manufacture the most innovative woodworking tools and accessories you could wish for.

On occasion, they bring out a product which they believe will have a viable market, but prudently, they do not go ahead blindly and manufacture thousands of the items without knowing what the demand is actually going to be.

So what they do is ask for "pre-orders". If sufficient "pre-orders " do not materialise then the product will not get manufactured and nobody loses any money.

What happens in this case is that your credit card does not get charged until the item is actually ready for dispatch.

If you are asked to pay in full at the time you place the order ...then you are not in any way "pre-ordering" the item ...you are ordering it, period. There is an implication that the item is in stock and available for dispatch or collection.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:04 PM

Now The, I'm an admirer of your general erudition, but, on this occasion, I have no hesitation in declaring that you are talking utter bollocks (you've done it before on several occasions, as it happens, but I haven't said anything). "Pre-order" is a senseless, useless, redundant and pretentious modernism. There is a bottom line here (to use another such), thus: if I go into Morrisons in April to order a Christmas turkey, everyone there knows what my intention is but I will, of course, be dismissed out of hand for being stupid. Rightly so, but no-one will accuse me of attempting to "pre-order". If I go into Morrisons in early December to bag me Kelly Bronze, stating that I wish to order my turkey, no-one but no-one will say to me "But ahah Mr Shaw! What you really want to do is to pre-order your turkey!" Everyone knows what I mean, come rain or shine, come winter, summer or pre-Thanksgiving, when I say "I wish to order a turkey." We have spoken thus for many centuries, and the "pre-" is a modern piece of superfluous and pretentious nonsense. As for the correspondent above who would make the nice distinction between pre-ordering and ordering on the basis of whether one pays upfront or not, well, dear boy, pick the bones out of this one: the form said I was pre-ordering the bloody thing, yet I had to pay a deposit amounting to half the price of the still-gobbling beast. I await your analysis with delicious anticipation.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM

"...If you are asked to pay in full at the time you place the order ...then you are not in any way "pre-ordering" the item ...you are ordering it, period. There is an implication that the item is in stock and available for dispatch or collection.


"...the form said I was pre-ordering the bloody thing, yet I had to pay a deposit amounting to half the price of the still-gobbling beast.


"pay in full" is not in any way equivalent to "deposit amounting to half the price" ...

I would concur that "pre-order" is indeed a neologism, one which would possibly have caused raised eyebrows on the part of Shakespeare and Dickens, but I would contend that in this modern world, it is a valid and acceptable term for what has become standard commercial practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:36 PM

You're a valiant fellow, Murray, but the turkey I ordered (not pre-ordered!) does in fact exist (unless, of course, Morrisons are a bunch of charlatans out to deceive the populace on the turkey supply front), and I have paid at least some dough upfront for said Xmas victim. Looking at this more broadly, I've noticed a trend for retailers of various ilk to invite us to "pre-order" stuff that isn't actually available as yet. Consider this: they are actually trying to make us feel as though we have some sneaky insight into the future availability which may not last, of course (so buy it now, quick!). Quite often, the goods on sale which can be "pre-ordered" become much cheaper a little while after they hit the market. "Pre-order" is a scam (and I'm being serious now for a minute). Albeit useful for the retailers who employ the term. Shit, did I really just say that??

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Airymouse
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:09 PM

Nigel: Thanks. I stand corrected. But I still don't like the word "gravitas." My copy of the OED has "gravisonous" followed by "gravitate." Of course there are words that the OED skips, which I see in use: "Jaws Harp" (for Jews' Harp) or "chairperson" (for chairman).