BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:33 AM

From time to time I hear that some little-bitty place wants its independence. I suggest they calculate the costs of the following:

an air force
a health system
a good educational system, from pre-school to post grad.
=========
I've been to the Highlands twice and met no mosquitoes or midges. They don't occur all the time, you know. And I didn't see tartan everywhere, either.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 11:05 AM

Scotlands existing educational system is already one of the worlds best.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 11:09 AM

A yes vote for Scottish independence will benefit more than just Union hating Scots.

I'll be very pleased to be able to call myself English again and have a government composed of my own countrymen.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 03:34 PM

The handouts will remain though. The difference being

A) we will put it on the foreign aid budget

B) It will have to rise.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 04:04 PM

Davie Robertson..... one of Scotland's finest songwriters.

Kilts.
The modern confection of kilt, Prince Charlie jacket, and big white socks bears
about as much resemblance to authentic traditional Highland dress as the
Papuan penis-sheath. Quite apart from that, it seems to me that wafting the
tartan around is a poor substitute for working at a real culture.


Although ma country I revere,
Juist let me make yin thing quite clear:
I'll say withoot a trace o guilt,
Ye'll never catch me in a kilt!
Away amang the Hielan peaks,
When Hielan laddies wore nae breeks,
Insteid a substitute they made –
A garment ca'ed the belted plaid.
An this affair, when richtly duin,
Claithed erse an shooders aw in yin.
It let ye climb hills at the gallop,
An when in need required nae ballop.
But then some joker, for a laugh,
Cut the hail shootin-match in half,
Then tucked it roond his nice white shirt,
An made his-sel a kin o skirt.
The Hielanders then didnae care
Tae wear the damn thing ony mair,
An donning overalls on their crofts,
Left kilts tae Yanks, pipe bands, an toffs.
Yet here in this degenerate age,
Noo wearin kilts is aw the rage,
An lads wi legs like pluckit chookies
Are wrappin kilts roond their bahookies.
Tae weddins they resort in flocks
Wi cute wee daggers doon their socks;
An no, yer auld een dinae fail ye –
Deid badgers ower their genitalia!
As Heilan chief ye'll shairly make it,
Togged oot in a Prince Chairlie jaiket;
And awbody kens that real hard cases
Wear dancing pumps wi criss-cross laces.
They think that warriors they resemble –
The very sicht wuid make ye tremble;
But no wi fear! For nae sicht dafter,
E'er made man pish his-sel wi laughter.
These buggers must be oot the box,
Paradin roond in big white socks!
God help sic puir bare-leggit losers:
I'll rest content wi wearin troosers!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 04:06 PM

Davie is a great Scot who loves his country and his culture
Davie hates hypocrisy!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 07:53 PM

For those who are in any doubt about handouts from Big Brother I would refer them to the recent Financial Times article which details the relative facts about where an independant Scotland would stand relative to our Southern neighbours. From memory {it being too late at night to check the article] it shows that every man woman and child in Scotland would be £1300 better off with independance.
Even the most rabid pro-no voter would not claim that the F.T. is a paper with a strong Scottish bias.
The article can be accessed on the site "Wings Over Scotland" under the heading "Unleashing a Firestorm" or on the F.Ts own web site for Sunday 2/2/14.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 08:02 AM

The recent comments from Bob Dudley of BP got tremendous media coverage. Have a look at the real Bob Dudley here.
http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/bob-bob-bobbing-along/

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 08:25 AM

Midges - Try Skin So Soft lotion by Avon. Works wonders but it is difficult to get hold of as most is bought up by the Scots :-)

Scotch pies - OK baked but wonderful deep fried. Heart attack waiting to happen though.

I usually leave Scotland when we run out of things to drink :-) We are going in 2 weeks so I will see how long we last this time. Hopefully at least 2 days!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 08:32 AM

Aye and look at how much the Scottish economy depends on oil.

Note my comments on an earlier thread regarding BP buying up coastal brown field land in Geordieville.

Taking the piss out of Salmond's shaky economic plans to pay for his social programme isn't helpful to either side in the debate.

As isn't cherry picking forecasts that happen to a) support one side and b) be in the minority. I'm looking at you Gutcher...

Those with the responsibility of a vote need to start getting good at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 11:30 AM

Financial services, tourism, and whisky, contribute vast amounts to the UK tax take, we don't just rely on oil, albeit, "a nice little earner"
I shall be voting no, because I want out from under the thumb of Brussels, far more than the thumb of Westminster. Wee Fish is desperate to remain a part of the EC, and should he win independence, I have no doubt that Brussels will insist we adopt the Euro, as a quid pro quo, before letting us join their swindle machine.
So It's a no brainer for me. I want out of the EC, while we still have some fish, and fishermen left.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:04 PM

Giok, Scotland doesn't have to join the euro. Look at Sweden's position.

Sweden does not have an opt-out from the euro but did not join ERM II and thus deliberately failed to fulfil the criteria for introducing the euro. Sweden later voted against euro introduction in a referendum in 2003, and the issue is currently dormant. The European Commission and the European Central Bank have stated they would tacitly accept this derogation for the time being. Swedish governments have repeatedly stated they will only introduce the euro after a referendum approving this move has been held.

At least with independence Scotland has a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:12 PM

Interesting.

I personally would consider stopping work and start my pension if we, UK that is, left The EU.

Before I sold up etc I was group CEO of a group of manufacturing companies and personally owned the UK operation. I cannot and will not accept the stupid gormless parochialism that surrounds the UK out campaign.

Fine.

But forget your welfare programmes, forget your benefits, NHS, state pensions, state funded care etc.

Without trade we are fucked.

Before anybody mentions Norway etc, they are bound by EU dictats but no vote. It's the price of tariff free trade.

The UKIP and Tory argument is as damaging to The UK as independence is to Scotland.

I don't mind paying 45% tax funnily enough. I resent ignorant twats making contributions irrelevant in the long term though. If you don't understand trade, don't talk about The EU as if it is a burden. Considering US tariffs, The EU is the only reason we can afford to exist.

The UK of old relied on a combination of industry and military muscle in The Empire. The former is tenuous, the latter a stain on our history.

The planet is small.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:48 PM

"The planet is small."

United we stand...... ?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 02:16 PM

Musket, Scotland is advocating staying in the EU so I don't understand the rationale of your last post. I was pointing out to Giok that joining the Euro is not a done deal after independence. As you know, there is a scenario that should Scotland votes NO, the UK government could take us out of the EU. Again, I believe that independence gives Scotland a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:23 PM

I agree with Giok here Jim. Although I will be voting "aye", I don't see how Alex can say we are a fully independent country if we are still tied to the legislators of Brussles.

Membership of the EC is highly unpopular in the UK as a whole, folks just don't like our social and economic rules determined by a shower of faceless bureaucrats, I don't see how it will be any more popular in Scotland. Look at the huge advances made by UKIP on this one issue alone!
UKIP of course have also been talking about nationalising the banking system and re-nationalising many public utilities....a stance that the first sovereign Scottish government might consider adopting?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:45 PM

What I'm saying Akenaton is that at the moment we have three tiers of governance 1) Brussels, 2) Westminster, 3) Scotland. With independence we can at least cut out one level of government. There are other options, of course, EFTA. After independence Scotland could have a different type of administration and questions of republicanism, different currency etc., can be considered. look at countries which have left the UK .. Ireland, Australia, New Zealand ... they all kept Sterling for quite a while, 20, 30, 40 years before having their own currency. First things first IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 04:52 PM

"First things first", that's how I see it too Jim.

Amazing how we are denigrated as scroungers, yet the denigrators seem desperate to hold on to us within the Union, none of their arguments make sense. :0)

One of my sons works for the "yes" campaign and says that there is a definite move for independence in the wind.
I noticed this about a couple of months ago, the Scottish electorate are not ALL contributors to Twitter, Facebook, or other media whorehouses.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:31 PM

I have been hearing this too. There are many labour supporters who would never vote for the SNP or the Tories but say they will vote YES in the referendum. There are so many people fed up with the doom laden, negativity from the NO side, the world will come to an end, the sky will fall in and your puppies will die, we cannot support ourselves, we need the UK, better a Tory government than one decided by us ... why can' t these people shake off the cobwebs, shake the chips off their shoulders, stand upright and take the opportunity to share in a new Scotland, an international Scotland in today's world. The ship is not sinking even though some of the mice are jumping overboard.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 06:43 PM

OK with me, just as long as you take back all the Westminster MPs with constituencies in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 07:06 PM

I wish this forum had a rule against members posting as GUESTS,
or GUESTS posting without a "handle"

Its not always easy to work out who one is actually addressing.
Of course it's usually just the same sad troll.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 03:08 AM

My point over The EU is that with trade funding any and every social welfare infrastructure, parochialism can never be the answer.

I for one don't want to see The UK, with or without Scotland, either hampered by trade tariffs or subjected to EU policies without the benefit of being part of it. And neither do the companies responsible for the tangible tax take.

The relevance of this for Scotland is quite important. Forgive me if I am wrong, but as Spain is adamant that Catalonia cannot do a similar trick to Scotland, they will veto, as is their right, any attempt by Scotland to join The EU. Meanwhile Germany has said any application from current sections would have to be on the basis of The Euro.

I genuinely understand that some people will vote yes because the no campaign is doom and gloom, but ignorance is no reason to create a dog's dinner. I admire many of the social aims of The SNP and applaud their stance on a fair society, especially this week's dismissal of bigotry. But misty eyed independence on terms they physically cannot deliver, I hope the Scottish electorate are more sophisticated than Salmond gives them credit for.

Between now and September, there is ample time to question in between rallying and sabre rattling. I'd start with his promises on Sterling, EU and defence myself.

But quite rightly, although I personally have much to lose or gain, I can't vote. I can give a view though. That view is we should keep The UK but devolve properly, including an England parliament. A Westminster function could be more of a federal responsibility, defence, Sterling, FCO etc.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 04:10 AM

England can keep Northern Ireland and Wales,......We will either accept or reject the idea of Scotland as a sovereign nation once again, without any assistance from people to whom the question does not apply

Should our campaign fail, remember Bruce and the spider; we are not going to sit and take the punishment which will surely be handed down "our masters" in Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 05:17 AM

Musket, you make lots of good points. I have said many times that England should have its own parliament and a possible CONfederation would work (as distinct from a federation).

In an interview with the Financial Times published today (3 February), García-Margallo said: "We don't interfere in other countries' internal affairs. If Britain's constitutional order allows – and it seems that it does allow – Scotland to choose independence, we have nothing to say about this."   

They could, of course, use the veto later but this would exclude their fishermen from Scottish waters ... highly unlikely.

There are many opt outs available but I don't see EU members ejecting Scotland from the EU for I numer of reasons. The rUK would also be a new state and would have to renegotiate subsidies which presently apply to the whole of the UK. I am a firm believer in the EU and see a not too distant future when the Euro will be the common currency. It's quite amazing that even after the financial mess we have seen, the Euro is still very strong.

On defence and other matters, if you're interested enough, I suggest you get a copy of the white paper "Scotland's Future".

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 07:14 AM

Interesting point about the Euro still being strong, Jim. Not so long back it was only worth about £1.45-ish. Now it's been hovering at £1.15 throughout all of the "financial chaos" in Europe. What's that all about? Beats me.

As for Scotland, well, I was born about 22 miles north of Hadrian's wall...in England (!!??). My mother's father was a Cameron, but swore he had no Scots in him, and my father's father was full-blooded Irish from Mayo.

Where's ma troosers? Where are the aspirin??

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 08:47 AM

I have read the white paper Jim.

As someone with much to lose or gain, I am taking an interest. I have personally invested in both companies and property north of the border, and a letter the other week from one of the companies said that should business risk he increased by the outcome, the board (of which I am a non executive director) would consider relocating. Not much in itself, although say that to the 67 people who would have to relocate or leave, but many others are looking and waiting. I repeat once again the BP stance.

I would also reiterate that it is right that only those resident should vote but anyone with an interest can and should throw a view.

Out of interest, I hadn't read Darling's withering review of the white paper before I came to many similar conclusions as he did.

The UK would still exist and would not require itself to reapply to The EU. If that were the case, Cameron would welcome Scot independence as a tool for his backbenchers to wield.

Sorry but I remain astonished how blinkered many people are to facts here. If the electorate can sort fact from opinion, then fine but my faith in democracy is borne of necessity rather than reason .....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 09:09 AM

Musket, Scotland and England formed the UK so there is no reason to believe that RUK would still exist as the Former UK (I couldn't bring myself to use an acronym). It can easily be resolved if Cameron would ask the EU for clarification ... only he has the power to do so. Why doesn't he? I think Alistair Darling must be a phenomenal speed reader as his pronouncements on the White Paper were out before the ink was dry.
Pete Jennings, my wife comes from Durham and she always says she just made it!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 10:16 AM

"From time to time I hear that some little-bitty place wants its independence. I suggest they calculate the costs of the following:an air force a health system a good educational system, from pre-school to post grad."

Leeniea but Scotland already pays for its own seperate educational and health systems. The fundings for those come out of the current Scottish Budget and all the figures show that Scotland still pays in slightly more to the pot than is taken out! As to the Air Force well what we contribute to that is calculated on a per head of population basis - so we currently pay our share of UK Armed Forces. What spending would be done in a future Scotland as far as defense goes would be up to a future Scottish gvt. One can't surmise what future policy would be but I can't imagine an indepedent Scotland would wish to strut the world stage, or pay for nuclear arsenals etc, like we do at present as part of the UK forces. No reason to surmise spending on defense would be more than it is at present surely?
As to the little-bitty place thing well Scotland would be as large or larger than many European countries. By population it would be about 25th out of 40 plus odd countries. So by no means large but also not one of the very small countries!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 10:32 AM

SCOTLAND SMALL? (poem by Hugh MacDiarmid)

Scotland small? Our multiform, our infinite Scotland small?
Only as a patch of hillside may be a cliché corner
To a fool who cries 'Nothing but heather!' where in September another
Sitting there and resting and gazing round
Sees not only the heather but blaeberries
With bright green leaves and leaves already turned scarlet,
Hiding ripe blue berries; and amongst the sage-green leaves
Of the bog-myrtle the golden flowers of the tormentil shining;
And on the small bare places, where the little Blackface sheep
Found grazing, milkworts blue as summer skies;
And down in neglected peat-hags, not worked
Within living memory, sphagnum moss in pastel shades
Of yellow, green, and pink; sundew and butterwort
Waiting with wide-open sticky leaves for their tiny winged prey;
And nodding harebells vying in their colour
With the blue butterflies that poise themselves delicately upon them,
And stunted rowans with harsh dry leaves of glorious colour.
'Nothing but heather!' – How marvellously descriptive!
And incomplete!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 11:03 AM

As to the EU thing I think a lot of people faff a bit when speaking about this. The conclusion by many people seems to be that the remaining UK would automatically remain as the existing member with 100% certainty. However the UK gvts own report on that "Scotland analysis: Devolution and the implications of Scottish independence" which was published last year didn't even claim that.....though it did say that it was the probable outcome. Cut and paste below....

"The position of an independent Scottish state and the continuing UK in international law
2.14 Professors Crawford and Boyle set out three possible outcomes under international law for an independent Scotland:
•        The remainder of the UK is the continuing state and would exercise the existing UK's international rights and obligations, and Scotland becomes a new successor state.59
•        Two successor states are created and neither would continue the international legal personality of the UK, which would cease to exist.60
•        The remainder of the UK is the continuing state and Scotland reverts to the status of the pre-1707 Scottish state.61

2.15 As the Opinion makes clear, the overwhelming weight of international precedent suggests that the first outcome is the most likely: the remainder of the UK would be considered the continuing state and an independent Scotland would be a new state.62"

I think it seems pretty likely that would be the outcome and no-one of any prominence in the SNP suggests otherwise in all truth.

We then though get the Unionists who spin the scare stories that Scotland will be kicked out the EU and there would be real difficulties for us etc. Again the UK gvt's own report says it is likely that we would be admitted as new members but that though not a 100% automatic process – it should be a pretty straightforward process and the report's author agreed that the SNPs stated timescale is realistic. We would be applying for readmission but for all intents and purposes applying from within! There would be certain areas where we may or may not get what we want. Blue clicky at the bottom………

So far all we have is opinions as it is a first situation of its kind. I find it strange that the Better Together campaign will troll for spokesmen across Europe who suggest difficulty whilst ignoring the report commissioned by their own UK gvt. Likewise I personally witnessed a local Tory politician suggest that Better Together had found a new ally in the Spanish PM. Sorry but I thought whatever the Scottish people's decision we should all be working for Scotland's benefit. And not applauding foreigners who'd look to trip Scotland up. Especially when the trip wire is being put there not for the Scots but to stifle democracy within Catalonia.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/feb/11/nicolasturgeon-scotland-treaties-legal

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 12:48 PM

You can only leave by referendum or legitimate Parliamentary decision. You can be thrown out for not abiding by agreements, unless you are fucking France but I digress.

Not sure independence by one part of a member contradicts The Treat of Rome. After all, Spain is a member, we are a member and we both claim Gibraltar.

I wouldn't take THAT much pleasure in suggesting Leith gets a coach up for a fact finding trip to Iceland via Ireland.

Some of the comments above remind me of the song from South West Scotland, If it wasn't for the weavers. You can sense them sat around a table nodding to each other about how right they are, how much the economy depends on them. I suppose the big difference is that they weren't indigenous but were from Lancashire.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket forgetting to say Musket
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 04:14 AM

That guest above was me.

Sorry aboot that.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 08:28 AM

Rather a lot of twaddle being spouted here on the Independence thing.

"Scotland and England formed the UK so there is no reason to believe that RUK would still exist as the Former UK" - Jim Mclean

The Acts of Union of 1706 & 1707 respectively formed the united Kingdom of Great Britain it did not form the United Kingdom that was formed in 1801 when the official title of the Kingdom became The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

EU membership should Scotland vote yes - Scotland according to the EU President and according to the President of the EU Commission will have to apply for membership. That will be a process that will take at least ten years possibly more. Even having managed to comply with the criteria for joining the matter is ultimately decided by a vote by all current member states and that vote must be unanimous - at the moment excluding the UK I can think of at least six member states that would block Scotland's entry in order that no precedent is set that would challenge their sovereignty.

Musket mentioned trade and how important the EU is to the UK (either with or without Scotland). Nowhere in his argument did I ever see any mention of the EU's trade with the UK feature - Within the EU Britain is Germany's biggest export market - they are not daft enough to cut off their own nose to spite their face. I think about four or five months ago Britain's trade with the rest of the world amounted to something like 56% of the total it is more if you look at where British goods go to from Rotterdam, at the moment as it goes to Rotterdam it is counted as trade with Europe irrespective of the final destination of the goods. There is a ready market for the UK in the anglo-sphere. When I voted last on Europe I voted to join a trading group not a political partnership - I did not vote to join the United Socialist States of Europe where the unelected and the unelectable (Neil Kinnock - Britten - Mandelson) dictate as Commissioners how my country is run.

On currency Alex Salmond and the SNP have been told exactly what the score would be by both the EU and by Westminster and the BOE. Your choices are not great Jim. Only two nations in the EU today can retain their currencies, the United Kingdom ( which will remain being referred to as the United Kingdom even if Scotland leaves in 2016) and Denmark. The deliberate manipulation of criteria by Sweden is just a holding action, ultimately they will either have to join or leave. Prior to being accepted for EU membership Scotland will have to fulfill the financial criteria that Sweden plays about with, if Scotland joins the EU Scotland will have to adopt the Euro - there is no choice. In the interim if Scotland continues to use the £Sterling then exchange rates are set by the UK, its interest rates are set by the UK its international borrowing is governed by the Bank of England. Under these circumstances I would doubt very much if you retained your financial services industry. The last and least desirable would be for Scotland to create its own currency. In which case your path to membership of the EU would take more like 20 years to attain.

On health and education you do not at present pay for it you contribute towards it, after having voted yes you will have to bear all the costs for Scotland's health and education schemes. You do not have to worry about the costs for an air force or for any sort of defence force - you will not have one, none of the voters in the Glasgow/Edinburgh belt will vote for it - taking over 9.4% of Britain's military hardware would act like a millstone around your necks, you simply could not afford to run it.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:16 AM

My passport says The United Kingom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. .. remove NI from that line and you have The United Kingdom of Great Britain as stated in artical 4 of the Acts of Union. Ireland joined the UK in 1801 but left about 120 years later, so you are playing with words but cannot alter the substance. If either Scotland or England (Wales wasn't a signatory) left, the union would be dissolved so two new states.
On currency, Denmark and the UK had opt outs, Sweden can suit itself as can Bugaria, Czech Republic, Croatia, Lithuania, Hungary, Romania and Poland, who by the way has been in the EU for a number of years and has immediate wish to adopt the Euro.
There are no rules dealing with expulsion of EU members, quite the opposite, look at the state of Ukrain and the EU is desperate for it to join.
Governor Carney made it quite clear that, being independent, the Bank of England would make any arrangement between its members work. Any country going into an arrangement with another would have to cede some of its sovereignty and that applies to England too.He said a currency deal was desirable.
Where do you get the idea that Scotland couldn't affords a health service, education, defence? Read las week' FT where

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:16 AM

Some good points Teribus. However, please try to understand words when you use them. The UK's trade within The EU is trade. Two way street. I include imports within that.

Political union is is someways another matter. For a common market to exist, monetary union is beneficial. But for that to exist, interest rates etc need to harmonise, which requires similar GDP spend which required harmonised government spending which requires er...   Political harmonisation.

My view is more trade based than level field based. We cannot even begin to live up to the corruption of Italy or Greece, nor can we have the balls to invest in manufacturing expertise like the Germans.

Scotland doesn't appear to have been given facts on how they will pay their way, nor indeed what they will spend it on. It is difficult to see merit in independence until somebody, not from either side of the battle, sets out what independence means. To date, I see no more than hating Westminster. Not the best argument to hold hands and jump into the unknown. The Scottish Parliament is no less stymied by rhetoric.

Still, I admire the social programme. But there again, Greece used to have a cradle to the grave system worthy of note.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:34 AM

Sorry, I am using an Ipad and it's so sensitive that I lose my place!
As I was saying, last week's FT showed how well off Scotland is and how much better off with oil and gas revenues it would be. The McCrone report of 1974, commissioned by the then Tory government and then hidden by the later incoming Labour government, said Scotland would be as rich as Switzerland with a pound which would have been the strongest in Europe. This report was kept secret until a couple of years ago when it was revealed under the FOI. The oil and gas revenues were squandered by later Tory and Labour administrations.
At the moment Scotland raise or lower tax by 3% so a different tax system could work now. RUK will not set the tax rates in an independent Sctland, the independent Bank of England will.
So don't kid yourself, Scotland's economy is strong. Have a look at the BBC's web site on Scotland's current GDP compared with the rUK. Whisky contributes 25% of all food and drink export from the current UK and accounts for over £4.3 billion .. I could go on but it has been documented elsewhere many times.
But the main reason for independence is to have a government voted in by the people of Scotland. At the moment, we have a Westmister government run by two parties which came third and fourth in Scotland.

Enough for now.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:38 AM

"Alex Salmond and the SNP have been told exactly what the score would be by both the EU and by Westminster and the BOE."

That simply is not so though. The EU has not given any kind of official statement either publicly or directly to the Scottish gvt. There have been some personal opinions by various officials, some high ranking right enough, and lawyers mooted that is all. As to the UK gvt the House Of Commons Library Research Paper came to the conclusion that there is no legal precedent and it will in the end come down to direct negotiations between the Scottish gvt and the EU.

The article in Scotland On Sunday this week suggested that there were various possible options for an independent Scotland within the EU.

1.        Formal sterling currency union with the rest of the UK which is the SNP's favoured choice but of course would need to be agreed by the remaining UK too.
2.        Informal sterling currency union with the rest of the UK though this is seem as problematic and very unlikely
3.        Scotland's own currency fixed. That is pegged to the pound as the punt originally was, or to the Euro as the Danish krone currently is
4.        Scotland's own currency floating.
5.        Euro – a formal currency union
6.        Euro – an informal currency union like Montenegro currently has where that country uses the Euro but is not within the Eurozone. Again viewed as unlikely

"On health and education you do not at present pay for it you contribute towards it,"

Health and education are paid for from the Scottish budget. We contribute to it but the figures show that we contribute slightly more than we are given back. Hence we pay for it.

As to the various other posters suggesting we couldn't afford to go alone. Come one the debate in Scotland has moved well past the "cannae dae it" old arguments where it was suggested Scotland couldn't afford it. No serious commentators now revert to that old tune. It is now in the "is it best tae dae it or no" phase and has been for some time. The subsidy junkie myth was just that a myth!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:40 AM

If you had had a Passport prior to 1921 it would have stated the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In 1927, the country name changed from "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" to "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Example:

British passport

Should Scotland vote for independence then the Union with Northern Ireland would still be in effect, the UK would still be a member of the EU, a member of NATO and bound by all its treaties and alliances.

Scotland by voting Yes in the referendum votes to leave the United Kingdom, an EU member state, so in effect they vote to leave the EU - so expulsion of EU members does not enter into it - you have voluntarily elected to leave.

All of the countries you detail there are bound to adopt the Euro as their currency Lithuania for example will have the Euro by 2017. By the way it started out by having to create its own currency, then revert to it's old pre-soviet currency which they had to peg to the US$ then once recognised it had to peg it to the Euro and it is now in the process of adopting the Euro. There IS no choice - Join the EU the Euro becomes your currency except for the UK and Denmark.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:59 AM

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain as stated in artical 4 of the Acts of Union. Ireland joined the UK in 1801 but left about 120 years later, so you are playing with words but cannot alter the substance."

To be fair though there is a subtle difference in the wordings Jim. In the 1707 Treaty of Union as passed through the Scottish parliament it definitely states that a new United Kingdom is being created and article after article repeats that phrase United Kingdom. However article one deals with the name and specifically states "be united into one Kingdom by the name of Great Britain". It reads to me afterwards that the term United Kingdom is being used to describe Great Britain rather than being part of the official name. However in the 1801 Act with Ireland it specifically states that the name of the new kingdom "shall be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 10:23 AM

Allan, as you say, the Sate's name changed from The United Kingdom of Great Britain by ADDING Ireland to it. There were three kingdoms in 1707, but only two united, the Scottish and the English making the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
The crowns weren't united in 1603 as is commonly stated. All three kingdoms were independent of each other but shared a common king until 1707 when only Scotland and England became politically united, Ireland still being outside this political union as a separate Kingdom with a separate parliament.
If a new United KIngdom is created to go by the name of Great Britain, then surely one can logically say that this new State is a United Kingdom of Great Britian? (pre the joining of Ireland).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 03:48 PM

"There are many labour supporters who would never vote for the SNP or the Tories but say they will vote YES in the referendum"
That's because the SNP is more socialist than the Labour party. Which in the central belt of Scotland is a religion rather than a political party.
My heart says yes, but my head says. NO WAY.
The majority of the shellfish caught in Scotland, ends up on the tables of France and Spain. However it is caught by French and Spanish boats, and goes directly from Scotland to Europe in fridge lorries. We get SFA all out of it, and our boats are struggling, and declining in number. Should we leave the EC, then they would still want our shellfi8sh, but would have to pay us for it, and thus provide employment, and income, to Scottish fishermen. I mean, even the lorries have long distance fuel tanks, so they can avoid buying fuel in the UK, at our exorbitant prices! So that's one more thing we don't get any benefit from.
They built, at great expense, auction markets in Lochinver, and Kinlochbervie, to sell the catch of Scottish boats. Both markets are now virtually redundant. What a waste of money that was! 25 years ago, they were paying off truck drivers at Lochinver, due to declining catches, don't imagine it's got any better.
EC? Don't make me laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 07:53 PM

The sooner we leave the EU the better.
Europe would still want to buy what we produce, "Scotland" is still a premier brand, the UK is not.
Tourism, whisky, lamb, beef, fish, renewable energy etc...add the wee word "Scottish" and you have something that the world wants.

Anyone know the date for the Independence gathering in Glasgow?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 11:06 PM

I suppose the truth is that none of us really know what will happen if Scotland secedes from the UK. one thing is quite certain though, if Scotland does leave us , it will be our fault.

all England is too London centric. Fifty miles outside London and they don't give a damn any industry or infra structure.

In Scotland's case, the Thatcher government really stuck it to them with the poll tax. They won't forget that in a hurry.

Perhaps the answer is for the government in London to secede from the rest of us. It only really cares about itself.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 11:21 PM

Big Al... "It only really cares about itself."

Ain't that the shit heard around the world?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 02:52 AM

Away from the political and economic debates, as they will play themselves out regardless of outcome; I have concerns that Al somewhat alludes to;

A hell of a lot of England have never voted for this lot ruling Westminster either. At least Scotland has a veneer of devolution. We have to put up with a combination of questionable mandate from No 10 coupled with Scottish MPs voting through legislation that only affects England.

So yeah, The UK needs to look at how to maximise democracy. The childish attempts to run away with the ball rather than engage in helping the whole of The UK develop governance does the parochial fools no favours.

Tell me, what percentage of Scottish jobs are public sector?

Interesting...

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 04:49 AM

From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 03:48 PM   Was me, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 08:22 AM

Exactly Mr Musket!

What Somerset is going through now is grounds for a UDI. I was chatting on the phone to Una from No Fixed Abode. They had to drive through Somerset to a gig a couple of days ago, She said its quite unimaginable, what people are having to live through. Apparently its like driving through the sea.

totally unforgiveable. London governance at its grossest.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 09:51 AM

Musket, there is not much more Scotland can do. We sent 80% of our MPs as Labout MPs to the Westminster government but the majority of English, Welsh and Northern Ireland MPs put together gave us a Tory led government. Your analogy about running away with the ball is interesting ..... we cannae even get a kick at the noo!
We cannot do much more. Maybe a Independent Scottish left of centre government might show our friends outside Scotland what can be done by kicking out the Tories. Unfortunately they'll have to fight UKIP as well.
I think that's where Scotland scores, we have an alternative.
And, Giok, at the moment our fishermen need a voice at the top table in Europe. Despite two thirds of the UK industry being based in Scotland, Scottish Ministers have not been allowed to speak on behalf of the UK in Europe, even on occasions where the interest is almost exclusively Scottish. This means that Scotland's representatives - who are closest to the needs of the Scottish fishing sector - are not able to ensure that their voice is properly heard.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 12:12 PM

a totally unanswerable case, the way you put it Jim.

we all know the UK isn't being run in an efficient manner. Left of centre? well god knows the wealth has to be rested somehow fromthehands of the ultra wealthy and set to work. no country could support an unproductive aristocracy the way we do.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 12:35 PM

No problem with government, no problem with being governed by those with a different view to me.

That's democracy.

But the spread of how local governance has to be in terms of what they influence is where we have issues. A Westminster government of one party will hamper a council of the other party etc. It is down to where autonomy lies. I still think it is possible to have autonomy at regional level in regional affairs, local autonomy in local affairs. Yes, Westminster autonomy in fundamental affairs.

Why? Because you can't throw away a system based on the incompetence of those running it. You vote otherwise next time.

The Scottish experiment in Utopia planning is based on goodwill of others. Xenophobia usually means that you don't give foreigners an even break though. Switzerland has a hung referendum result on immigration. They aren't part of The EU, they don't gave a vote in The EU, but if the vote was to go against EU immigration criteria, they would be punished through trade tariffs, freedom of movement, visa restrictions etc.

This is the status Salmond wants. All the rules but none of the say.

Having read Cameron's latest speech, I wouldn't want to be in an "independent" Scotland if he gets a majority government next time. As a UK out referendum wouldn't win, his shallow Col. blimp back benchers would, presumably, force him to veto any further Euro integration.

Scotland's application would get further away.

Sorry, but we can't eat enough haggis or drink enough malt to finance Scotland's public sector, let alone the welfare bill. Especially if EU trade doesn't apply. Tariffs and all that...