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BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: akenaton Date: 05 Apr 14 - 10:57 AM Ed, my only printed view on perversion, is that it would be "extremely difficult to put up a reasoned argument that homosexual practice was NOT a perversion." However, I am happy to be convinced......carry on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:16 AM It's quite simple to carry on, Ed. Just ask ake if he thinks homosexuals are perverts. I have asked him but he will not answer me. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Ed T Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:18 AM I have nothing much to add Ake. You have made your views on that one aspect clear enough. While that statement may or may not be misinterpreted, can you not see how it could give others a feeling that you have an anti-gay prejudice? After all, unlike those living in your community, on the internet we only have small pieces of information (or, as John Barth put it, snapshots) to provide a glimse of the character of other mudcat posters we have not met. That statement, taken alone, sure stands out as major character snapshot with me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Apr 14 - 12:39 PM Many people have objections to homosexuality- they may be won over to a rational view by discussion, others will not. VITUPEROUS name-calling will do nothing to change their opinions- it never helps. Among the millions of Republican voters in the U. S.- 61% of Republican voters ages 21-29 do not object to same-sex marriage, but among those over 50 years in age, only 27% support it. PEW research poll, 2014. A Washington Post Poll found that overall, 59% of Americans approve of same sex marriage. A Ford Foundation poll (2013) found 53% of Americans would support same sex marriage, while 41% are opposed. Reason, calmly expressed, is the only way to win over the millions of Americans who are opposed. As a paleontologist-zoologist, I know that among humans, some 10-14% are wired for same sex attraction. These people must have the same rights as the majority heterosexual group. Over 100,000,000 Americans who are opposed can only be won over by considerate, rational discussions in the media and among church, business and other groups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Apr 14 - 12:52 PM There were several other polls in 2013- Public Religion research Group Bloomberg Quinnipiac Gallup USA Today CBS News Washington Post All reported approx. 40% opposed to same sex marriage. Age divisions showed that the younger groups showed the most support for same sex marriage. There also were regional differences with 60 percent favoring support of same sex marriage in the NE and W, 51% in the Midwest, and 40% in the S. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Greg F. Date: 05 Apr 14 - 12:58 PM Over 100,000,000 Americans who are opposed can only be won over by considerate, rational discussions... That's a joke, right? You think these lunatics are rational, Q, or have any respect for factual information?? Talk about pollyanna..... Maybe you should get a group sing of Kumbaya together. I'm sure that would convince 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:00 PM Blood tests prior to marriage are opposed by those who consider them an invasion of privacy, etc. For the greater good of the populace, I believe that they should be required of all entering unions, heterosexual as well as homosexual. These tests would lead to treatments to minimize these scourges. At the present time, the States show little support for mandatory tests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM The Archbishop of Canterbury opposes gay marriage He points out that the majority of Africans oppose same sex unions, and would not consider support of Christianity if it accepted them. Governments and most of the population in Africa oppose same sex marriage. Not a Christian myself, I cannot comment on his stand; my point is that the Church of England opposes same sex marriage, as do some other large church groups. I will attempt to get UK opinion on same sex marriage, but my guess is that 40% will be opposed. Only an idiot would call 40% of the population in these western nations lunatic. They may be misguided but vituperation and scorn will not change them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Ed T Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:20 PM Problem with blood tests to curb HIV infection is many in the main HIV demographic are in the the least likely to marry catagory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:25 PM The Church of England will bless the union of ss married couples in church, so not completely opposed. I do not think their view is based on the opinion of African governments or peoples. It is not among the reasons they give for not having ss church weddings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:33 PM Valid point, Ed. I don't know the figures, but education of members of the poorest educated, immigrant, demographics is important, and it will be slow. Testing of all immigrants should be required, but there is the problem of EU movement of people from one country to work in another, and illegal immigration. Tough problem! But test as many as possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Janie Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:33 PM Problem with either ignoring the views of 40% or simply calling them bigots or stupid is it is unlikely to have any positive impact with respect to them examining and altering their views, and in fact, is likely to allow them the opportunity to focus on being personally attacked and do what most creatures do when being personally attacked - hunker down and attempt to solidify and defend their position. Of course, some people will perceive any disagreement with their views as a personal attack and will react in a manner they perceive to be in kind. Glad you are not generally one of them, Q. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Ed T Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:38 PM Regardless of ss laws or not, the main (potential to be infected) demographic is less likely those who wish to be wed. Maybe it would be more effective at divorce, as folks are no longer smitten, and are starting to "fool around" :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Musket Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:51 PM The gay marriage bill went through with all party support. Polls are polls and even when I may like what I read I still take them with a healthy pinch of salt. The Independent polled the day before the commons debate started and reckoned 87% of the population supported gay marriage. Just out of interest Q, over 15% of the population here have taken class A drugs, but you don't need to convince them otherwise, just point out the law. One person in The UK says "marriage" when they refer to marriage, but you don't have to convince him, just point out the law. You don't need to respect opponents of equal opportunity, just take each and every opportunity to shout them down, marginalise them and remind them that society requires they don't make their odious bigotry respectable by numbers. If a poll said 51% of the population reckon it is alright to bugger children, would you want to respect their right to that view? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:53 PM Following up on Ed's point, The Pew survey shows only 51% of those over 18 are married (U. S.). I didn't realize it was that high. In order to catch those eschewing union, perhaps require tests at school entry, along with immunization for smallpox, etc.? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Greg F. Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:01 PM unlikely to have any positive impact with respect to them examining and altering their views Ah, but Janie, absolutely NOTHING is "likely" to have a "positive impact" when dealing with these bigoted idiots. Only an idiot would call 40% of the population in these western nations lunatic So Q, what percentage of the German population in 1941 were Nazis or Nazi sympathizers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Ed T Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:39 PM "Problem with either ignoring the views of 40%" My observation is that extreme views rarely form the majority on most tolics. Most tend to concentrate near the middle on many issues. However, those on the extreme edge tend to lead one to believe that the majority support their extreme, and tag onto those in the middle, through sketchy routes, tovsupport their cause. Clear expressions of shared community views frequently does have an impact on "throwing water on" this tactic, and does result in changes in society, versus not speaking up, when it is important to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:41 PM Musket: "Quiet.. Don't wake the moderators.... LET'S DISCUSS CREATIONISM AGAIN!!!!!!!! Your move." My, that was 'creative'! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Janie Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:05 PM I agree, Greg, that there are always going to be some percent of any given population whose views, at least regarding some things, are not going to be open to any external influence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:35 PM One day a co worker told a joke with the "n" word to a crowd of workers at lunch. Frustrated, I stood up and said "you know, that joke would have been funny, if it was not at the expense of others, and the "n" word had not been used. All was quiet, and I walked away. That was the last time I heard that word, or a racist comment openly made in that workplace . I learned not only to speak up in these situations but that it was my responsibility and duty to do so, and to call people out on harmful statements, and that by doing so, that I could make a difference. I was a secondary school teacher in Walthamstow for six years (and in the East End for another seven!). Walthamstow then was just about as multi-ethnic as it was possible to be (I forget the current correct use of words as I've been in Cornwall for 27 years so forgive me that). Classroom racist abuse was an everyday occurrence. I resolved never to let it pass and I don't think I ever did. I found that the best way was often to use humour rather than go straight into attack mode. Making the perpetrator feel sheepish did more good, mostly, than making them feel humiliated. I remember hearing Woody Guthrie (might have been those Lomax Library of Congress tapes, I can't quite remember) talking about the black people he came across, speaking as he found and not as he had been led to think by the received racist wisdom of the time (read what his dad did...), as funny, interesting and amusing. Not in any sort of patronising way, but in a way that completely drew the sting from racists. It's a good approach, but, if you've tried it and it hasn't worked, as with hateful and prejudiced people such as Ake and Keith, you have no alternative but to tell it like it is. I have gay friends and Jewish friends and Christian friends and all manner of friends, and they are friends because we are of like mind in that we do not inject prejudice into our dealings. That is not to say we don't have prejudices, as we are not saints. There are several people here who would never make it into that circle in a million years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Big Mick Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:36 PM Greg F., perhaps you could explain the difference between what polls show now (with regard to ss marriage) and what the polls showed 5 to 10 years ago? Surely all those opposed before have not died? One thing is to be sure, you will not change hearts and minds with inflammatory rhetoric such as calling them lunatics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:51 PM you will not change hearts and minds with inflammatory rhetoric such as calling them lunatics. OK, so tell us how we're going to change hearts and minds by being really, really nice to them. Look at how Bill has changed pete's heart and mind by his being really, really nice to him. Made him even worse if you ask me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:08 PM Can't say I feel like I need protecting, joe. The abusive posters only succeed in demonstrating the paucity of their arguments. Seems a strange idea to me, joe that Jesus might not regard Jonah and genesis as historically accurate when he compared them to important teachings like the resurrection and his return in judgment. Musket , have to agree with you and Voltaire . Look at the atrocities committed by dictators who believed the absurdity of evolutionism! And show me if you can, how they were being inconsistent with their godless faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Big Mick Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:44 PM Now, see, Steve my padawan learner, you have focused on the rhetoric instead of answering the question I posed. This is called "obfuscation" or shifting the premise. Another thing, young Jedi, for you to look up. You should probably spend less time here and more time in your studies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Apr 14 - 06:27 PM Big Mick, big bottom to talk out of. I must confess, in my simplicity, that I don't know what you're on about most of the time. Unfocused and rather incoherent. But do carry on. Your ever-thinning patina is ever-thinning. "I'm a mod therefore I possess gravitas" is a maxim that you're working hard to do away with, I see. Next... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Big Mick Date: 05 Apr 14 - 07:01 PM Again, in your attempt to bait me with name calling, and trying to attack my "patina" (must be a new word you learned, you've used it twice), you show more and more that you suffer from "respect envy". You seem to think that I have some undeserved respect that you are entitled too. I don't know if I do or not, but if I do it comes from plain speaking on how I see the world. Folks with the complex that you seem to suffer from hate it when someone else takes issue with them and folks happen to agree. You specialize in belittling, being dismissive, and ad hominem attacks. You love to create your own premise and then craft the perfect solution. When someone comes along and questions the premise, your whole world collapses. So fire away with your absurd and insulting comments. I am perfectly willing to answer them and let folks make up their own minds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Apr 14 - 07:41 PM OK Mick the non-prick, so you've lost it. Do like I do and try to keep your head, old boy. You cannot substantiate anything in that post. Incidentally, do you work for the same shrink firm as Joe? He tells me I need a shrink, you tell me I have a complex. And here's me thinking you were just a somewhat inflated-ego mod on a music forum! Do show me your medical qualifications before your next tirade, which will, undoubtedly, tell me to adjust my meds. Alternatively, just shut up until you have something of substance to contribute. Just a suggestion, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Big Mick Date: 05 Apr 14 - 08:41 PM Steve, I was contributing before you knew what Mudcat was. As to the inflated ego, yeah, I partly do have one. Goes with the turf when one entertains for a living. But, padawan learner, I would suggest you take care of that lumber I your eye before you start worrying about the speck in mine. As to my qualifications, I never claimed to have any. But ........aren't you past due to give us a chapter and verse recitation of yours? I mean ..... hell ....... you do it all the time. Gettin' anywhere on that homework I assigned you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:23 PM Steve, I am no more prejudiced than you are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:24 PM Steve Shaw: "I have gay friends and Jewish friends and Christian friends and all manner of friends, and they are friends because we are of like mind in that we do not inject prejudice into our dealings." Do you ever discuss your views on 'God' with your Jewish and Christian 'friends', being as you say, '...they are friends because we are of like mind'....if so, you ought to REALLY thank them for their friendship!..it must be something in their belief system, to have such tolerance and patience! GfS P.S. 'Shh.. Don't let them hear you..' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Big Mick Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:30 PM Ouch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: gnu Date: 06 Apr 14 - 01:09 AM Shhhh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:33 AM I don't know, you start a thread and this happens. If nothing else, I have at least one person with the ability to censor weighed up, and although lightweight, he has an ability to misrepresent. Mmmm Keith has called Steve prejudiced before so to say he is no more prejudiced was clever by his standards. Not accurate but it did make me smile. Goofus obviously hasn't bothered banging those rocks together. That said, he did at least read the op, not that it influenced his contributions. Another wonderful day. Unless you are part of the mythical 70%. Then it's another opportunity to be bitter and twisted. Luckily, reality brings the percentage down. A bit like those who say a majority here in The UK are Christians. Trick questions in polls don't bring the figure over the 1% who attend church. (Their figures, it's possibly much lower. Vicars have been found to add wedding, funeral and christening numbers, naughty naughty. ) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Apr 14 - 03:00 AM So Richard Bridge says this:
Posted By: Richard Bridge 05-Apr-14 - 06:32 AM Thread Name: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
It's nice, Joe, to hear you agree that the position of creationists is ill-informed and irrational. So, what the big deal if people are wrong every once in a while? Does it really matter? Is it worth all the derision and combat and hatred and whatnot that humans have engaged in for the sake of being "right"? I don't think so. To a great extent, the obsession with being "right" is just a rationalization for doing battle. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:10 AM A bit like those who say a majority here in The UK are Christians. But no-one ever did say that Musket. YOU claimed that atheists were a majority in the West, but you were shown to be wrong again. I challenged you on it and was proved correct again. Not a single country was identified where it was true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Musket Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:30 AM Atheists are a majority in The West. Full stop. There are degrees of boutique and it is a fact that if you ask many people their religion they will say CofE etc. But ask the same people if they believe in God, (MORI do this every year for The Secular Society) the same people say no. Not that my general interpretation of the term atheist would concur with a narrow interpretation by those defending the opposite. Joe. If you wish to let society change taboos, you start by challenging them. Also, you talk of those who don't like homosexuals but don't deride them. If any such person has posted on Mudcat I must have missed their contribution. The creationist belief is, again, fine as far as it goes, but to use it to try to prevent scientific research into for example stem cell or consent for your child's medical intervention..... I get fed up of colleagues having to involve social services and ultimately the courts when the surprisingly large cluster of Jehova's Witnesses around these parts think they have ultimate control over their child's health with regard to blood transfusion, bone marrow transplant and even education for children in hospital. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:46 AM I remind you that surveys asking about belief (not any church) found that most people in any country do. You were wrong again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:09 AM Shouldn't you be out giving thanks for your self assuredness? It's Sunday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:15 AM As long as the creationists don't force our schools to teach their religion, what's the problem? Instead of yours, you mean? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:22 AM Steve, I was contributing before you knew what Mudcat was. Contributing to Mudcat for who knows how long does not imbue one with great intellectual powers or deep wisdom, as many contributors here, including you, demonstrate only too well, I hate to tell you. As for Goofus's inane response to my post, and your "ouch", well wassup with you! Weird! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Stu Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:35 AM "If people have some twisted ideas about some things, how much does it really matter?" Because they convince the vulnerable, lost and gullible, they whisper lies in their ears and promises of redemption they can never deliver. They eschew progress in favour of ignorance and despise knowledge. If the truth doesn't matter, what does? Just let it slide eh? Sod that for a lark; enough people have worked and suffered whilst striving for the truth to make it a cause worth defending. The reason Pete seems put upon is because his views and his way of arguing for them (or not) is dishonest at a fundamental level. If you took the time to read all the posts on the threads where creationism is discussed you might learn a thing or two about your new pet; it ain't pretty and he's certainly not above insulting people himself. Here in the UK we're battling these fundamentalists that want to teach creationism as science in our schools. They want to use their lies and misrepresentation to mislead our children, and we can't allow that to happen in science classes. If they force us to abandon reason for superstition we all know where this ends up. There's a deep and unpleasant latent aggression in their arguments too, borne of their literalist view of the bible which has a fair degree of unpleasantness. These are their tenets, not the more interpretive worldview of the mainstream. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Stu Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:46 AM Pete - here's one for you. We've talked about your use of words like 'Darwinism' and 'evolutionism', and upon reading this article I thought of you: Science has nothing to tell us about the soul? I disagree The word is 'scientism' and one definition is: an exaggerated trust in the efficacy of the methods of natural science applied to all areas of investigation (as in philosophy, the social sciences, and the humanities). I'm guessing the article won't be to your taste as it contains some interesting philosophical discussion on the nature of the soul that might not be in the good book. Much better than the other isms in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:26 AM Because they convince the vulnerable, lost and gullible, they whisper lies in their ears and promises of redemption they can never deliver. And they pass it on without conscience to impressionable children, too young to understand the meaning or consequences, in the guise of religious "education" in faith schools and by dragging them along to church to say prayers that are gobbledegook to them. And they do this, as I say, with completely clear consciences (in fact, they've been taught by their faith to have bad consciences if they don't do it). And they wonder why we resort to the fairly gentle term "delusion". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Apr 14 - 10:08 AM Steve Shaw: "As for Goofus's inane response to my post, and your "ouch", well wassup with you! Weird! :-)" Do you mean this one?: Steve Shaw: "I have gay friends and Jewish friends and Christian friends and all manner of friends, and they are friends because we are of like mind in that we do not inject prejudice into our dealings." Do you ever discuss your views on 'God' with your Jewish and Christian 'friends', being as you say, '...they are friends because we are of like mind'....if so, you ought to REALLY thank them for their friendship!..it must be something in their belief system, to have such tolerance and patience! Frankly, my response was to your inane post.... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Musket Date: 06 Apr 14 - 10:12 AM Or it is just that they are decent people, ad their belief system is irrelevant in this case? zzzz You do have some strange ideas Goofus.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Apr 14 - 12:46 PM You didn't believe all the other figures from Ake and Keith..I'm sure you'll come up with your own. GfS P.S. You can go back to sleep, now... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:33 PM He's a complete twit, quite possibly with altered consciousness, Musket. it's rare that any post of his makes any sense. As an honest broker who only ever posts anywhere under his real moniker, I do wonder whether Jack The Twat, Ake, Goofus, Mig Bick, Keef, pete and Joe are all the same person. Or, at least, that they're all Joe's uncles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:38 PM For those who do not appreciate the last line. Here is the chorus. Uncle Joes mintballs Keep you all aglow Give 'em to your Granny And watch the bugger go Away with coughs and sniffles Take a few in hand Suck 'em and see, you'll agree Their the best in all the land. (Mike Harding - I think) :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:46 PM Aye, "suck it and see". Haven't heard that since "Gibberellin Jack" Hannay, a great northern lad who taught me plant physiology in the early 70s at Imperial College, said it to encourage to try new approaches. I think I'll revive it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you.. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:47 PM encourage us |
