BS: Bundy ranch stand off

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 10:20 PM

A good summary 

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:08 PM

Space aliens beam that info directly into your brain, guest? Or is it just your own hallucination?

Or perhaps your a publicity agent for the Sovergn Citizens Militia?

PS: you forgot to mention the black helicopters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:37 PM

Federal agency's treatment of residents at the Bundy Ranch this past week included tasering, beating, wrongful arrest, threatening residents with attack dogs, and mobilizing a federal paramilitary force whose barrels were trained on US citizens, all in all, spending at least $3 million of tax payer money in an effort to sell stolen cattle over state lines in Utah and California. A legal argument has also been made that the US Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is now guilty of racketeering under the federal RIC) statute (Racketeer Influenced and Corruption Organizations). If all that wasn't enough, evidence is now emerging regarding pattern of extreme cruelty and abuse, and suspected culling of animals from the Bundy Ranch.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/04/16/exclusive-evidence-of-blms-deadly-abuse-of-animals-taken-from-bundy-ranch/

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:20 PM

Where is that damned "like" button?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:27 PM

Time to arrest this clown and slap him in jail. Actually, its way PAST time. And the rest of the "soverign citizen" cretins with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:03 PM

From Politico:

1. Bundy has been fighting BLM for more than 20 years. The rancher hasn't paid the BLM's grazing fees since 1993, and a federal judge first ordered him to remove his cattle from the land in 1998. In July, another judge said the BLM could remove his cattle if it was still on public land by the end of August. Bundy says he owes the government more than $300,000 in unpaid fees, but the government says he owes $1 million, plus the cost of the recent round-up. Either way, Bundy tells the Las Vegas Sun that he won't pay.

2. The Bundy family has owned its ranch since the 1870s. The ranch is only about 160 acres, which isn't enough space to sustain the hundreds of cattle that Bundy owns. He insists the disputed land around his ranch belongs to the state of Nevada, rather than the federal government, and he says the feds have no authority in the area. He told the Sun the government is trying to sabotage his plans to someday turn the ranch over to his son.

3. Bundy doesn't recognize the federal government. Speaking to conservative radio host Dana Loesch last week, he said he believes in a "sovereign state of Nevada" and abides by all state laws, but, "I don't recognize the United States government as even existing." (As The Atlantic notes, the Nevada Constitution says a citizen's first allegiance is to the federal government.)

5. BLM is in charge of 245 million acres of public land nationwide. 155 million acres of that area is available for livestock grazing in the West, and the agency has nearly 18,000 active permits and leases with ranchers in the West. BLM says its objective with public grazing is "to ensure the long-term health and productivity" of the land and environment.

6. The federal government owns more than 81 percent of all land in Nevada. BLM, alone, oversees 68 percent of the state, according to a 2010 report by the Congressional Research Service. Federal ownership of land is heavily concentrated in western states, with the government owning 47 percent of all combined land in the 11 western-most states, and only 4 percent in the rest of the country.

7. Bundy's supporters have roots in the Sagebrush Rebellion. The battle over federal land-use policy flared up in the 1970s, as a more environmentally oriented federal government began imposing regulations on its vast holdings in the West. Many ranchers accused President Jimmy Carter of using regulations to target states that didn't support him in 1976 or 1980. In a 1980 campaign stop in Utah, then-candidate Ronald Reagan said offered his support for the Sagebrush Rebellion: "Count me in as a rebel."

Another article from San Francisco Chronicle has a photo of Bundy with a pocket-sized version of the U.S. Constitution. To what purpose, one wonders? Swatting flies?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:55 PM

I am all about the right to arm bears.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 03:57 PM

It's also quite an interesting demonstration that "the right to bear arms" is totally useless in the face of federal firepower and might as well be abandoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:25 PM

Thanks for that, Ed. Makes it pretty clear that Bundy is a nut job among nut jobs. But then, most far right-wingers and Repugs these days are.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM

not a lawyer link 

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:03 PM

Many live in my neighborhood.

Not just your neighborhood, Joe. These dangerous fools are all over the place and their ranks are growing daily. Just check the websites of some of the "patriot" and other groups I noted, above.

And don't forget to thank the National Rifle Assoc. for stoking and promoting that paranoia.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM

PDQ says: The Feds sent over 200 police, some with machine guns or sniper rifles, to evict about 800 cows

That's probably true, PDQ - and why is it that the Feds have to show up with such gunpower? Because Bundy and his lot believe they are a law unto themselves, and they're not afraid to use their guns to prove it.

And this paranoid fear of the Federal Government (or need to assert superiority over government) is a reason why many gun owners so vehemently oppose any attempt at gun control. Not all gun owners are like that, but many are. Many live in my neighborhood.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:40 PM

1998- A federal judge issued a permanent injunction against Bundy. His appeal lost in 9th Circuit of Appeals.

12 lawsuits are pending against other ranchers who deny BLM rights.

See article in Washington Post; Jaime Fuller, "Everything you need to know about the long fight between Cliven Bubdy and the federal government." April 15.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST,not a lawyer, but...
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:22 PM

The legal arguments very clearly explained (with citations) here.
Bundy has been knowingly breaking the law for a long time.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/12/1291572/-Does-rancher-Bundy-have-a-legal-claim-No

Someone make link please?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:04 PM

Don't feel bad, guest- these wacko groups don't make the news down here in the lower 48 much either. Yet they're proliferating all the time.

Guess the U.S. media is too busy worrying about Muslim Tay-rists & other shibboleths to pay attention to real threats.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:40 PM

Thanks, Greg F. I guess it doesn't make the Canadian news.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:27 AM

Sure looks like it, Ed - another bunch of greedy morons who feel they can do whater they want whenever they choose, and the law be damned.

Plenty more of 'em, too - and not just cattle ranchers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:22 AM

Does this court case relate tk this situation?

UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee,versus Clifford GARDNER; Bertha Gardner, Defendants-Appellants.


posted before? 

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:00 AM

The very bottom line is about those whose attitude is "I don't like to be told what to do and my interests supersede any regulation!". and who then take that convenient, but flawed, premise to any logical conclusion they wish.

The basic point is that of a bully... and one way they use it is to turn it around and call anyone who tries to control their selfish behavior (like the government) a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM

Pdq .... what a load of crap. Times have changed. This guy is a millionaire using public lands to be one. Conservatives don't mind short hanging my grand kids education, but ask a millionaire to pay for a resource he is getting rich off of, and right away it is an attack on liberty. Don't folks like you get tired of being saps for these bastards?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

No, PeeDee, yours is stupid business.

You're spouting more smokescreen bullshit- this is about a rich tax cheat and leech breaking the law.

Assuming, of course, that you realize this is a nation of laws.

You apparently also know nothing about - or simply choose to ignore- the damage herds of cattle can do as opposed to "wild burros, deer and antelope".

How many people do you think it would take to round up 800 head of cattle in an area as large as the one involved? Have any direct experience of livestock?

The Mudcat response is to pull out today's Democratic National Committee talking points...

Its hard to believe you can actually be THAT stupid, but there you have it in black & white.

[The BLM'S] job has always been to manage the land for the benefit of the People.

Close, PeeDee, but no cigar. Their job has always been to manage the land for the benefit of the People ACCORDING TO THE MANAGEMENT PLAN, GUIDELINES AND REGULATIONS PERTAINING TO THE PARTICULAR TRACT OF LAND IN QUESTION.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:23 AM

This is serious business.

The Feds sent over 200 police, some with machine guns or sniper rifles, to evict about 800 cows that were wandering aimlessly over nearly a million acres of undeveloped land. There are mustangs (wild horses), wild burros, deer and antelope wandering over these same public lands and eating grass and weeds also. So what.

The Mudcat response is to pull out today's Democratic National Committee talking points and claim that everything is just the way it should be. Nothing to see here. Now, just move on...

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:23 AM

People showing up to protest but wearing guns?


Well, Guest, apparently you haven't kept abreast of the "Patriot" groups, the "Militia" groups, the "Oath Keepers" the "Posse Comitatus" and such like many more extreme right-wing dangerous lunatic groups that have rushed in to support the Bundy Crooks.

For a start, check these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_%28organization%29

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers

http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/active_patriot_groups.pdf

And there's much more where that came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:20 AM

PDQ says: Their (BLM) job has always been to manage the land for the benefit of the People. Their job was never to provide huge amounts of money for the rest of the government to spend nor was it their place to punish uppity ranchers and put then out of business.

That's true, but the political climate of the nation has changed as our government has moved into a culture of austerity. Just as some people object to subsidizing poor people, others have come to object to subsidizing businesses. So, yeah, the government now has to charge for things it used to give businesses for free. Even people who paid for the Social Security and Medicare benefits they receive, are condemned for depending on "entitlements."

Tit for tat, ya know.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:58 AM

This ain't rocket science. It's publicly owned land. He was given notice of the law. It is the well uttered phrase doctrine. He owes fees. He is a thief. Nothing more to it. Song wringer, quit being an ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:27 AM

Why so desperate to save the honor of Dirty Harry Reid, Silly River?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/13/nevada-bundy-ranch-standoff-could-leave-dirt-on-ha/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medi

That's a link to a Washington Times story about Reid's buddy at the BLM trying to steal the land. Freezes up my computer or I'd post it.

Reid's most recent embarrassment was when he said that all of the people who told bad stories about Obamacare were liars. All of them. Over 7 million kicked off their insurance plans, tens of thousands losing their doctors, having to pay double in new rates, hospitals closing, doctors quitting, children dying...Reid said that all of the millions of people who told those stories were lying. All of them.

He's a fucking lunatic, and he did indeed think that his felonious BLM buddy could just send out 200 Pinkertons to kill off a ranching family so Reid Junior could make some quick yuan with the Chinese.

Nuremberg trials, Reid, Holder, Obama. It's coming, and a million childish "debunking" sites won't stop it. Don't defend Reid and his big money interests, people. Get on the right side of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:46 PM

Grazing fees on BLM land go way back- long before Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:40 PM

Misinformation debunked in case it hasn't been shared here already.

Right wing disinformation: Bundy's Land Is NOT Solar Farm for Harry Reid

Right wing seizes on Bundy trespass to go after Harry Reid

When a local issue goes national, it is often warped into other political agendas. We see that clearly with Cliven Bundy's 20 years of public land cattle trespass coming to a head.

A cursory search shows a sudden explosion of articles claiming Nevada's senior senator, Harry Reid, wants Bundy's land (all Bundy actually owns is a melon farm) to build a solar plant to enrich himself and his son. Since Reid is the U.S. Senate Majority Leader, the radical right has every incentive to harm him by making this false claim. Such a blatant lie needs to be exposed.

Bundy has been trespassing over 750,000 acres of U.S. public land to the south of Mesquite and Bunkerville, Nevada. Bundy's actual private property is his melon farm at Bunkerville, which looks like maybe 100 acres on Google Earth. There is a solar farm. But it is not on the huge swath of land Bundy is trespassing on. The solar facility is actually under construction near the Moapa Indian Reservation about ten miles closer to Las Vegas.

The Wildlife News has been critical of many solar farms in the desert because of the massive destruction of wildlife habitat, but this farm under construction is not one of the dangerous mirror farms like Ivanpah near Primm, Nevada/California. It is a photovoltaic farm and it is being built to allow decommissioning of the Reid Gardner coal generation station nearby. Reid Gardner is one of the dirtiest coal plants in the nation. In addition, the new solar plant will also help the tribe which has been badly abused in the past, being left with only a 1000 acre reservation. . .

Read the rest at the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:17 PM

"The BLM's job is to manage lands the belong to the People so as to pronvide raw materials, hunting, fishing, and even cattle so the McBurger customers will have something for lunch. "

So why do you have a problem with them MANAGING the fucking land?

If you think it is the people's land, your land. You are a moron to let Bundy decide how it should be managed. Dozens of farmers stopped grazing that land. Bundy need to pay his fees and remove his cattle or go to jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:13 PM

"Federal funds for a Nevada-based desert tortoise conservation center are running dry and wildlife officials plan to close the facility and euthanize hundreds of tortoises that were once classified as "endangered" and are currently considered "threatened."

Carol told me that President Reagan, dirty old tree hugger that he was set the fees that Bundy was welching on buy exec order and that the fees that Bundy was supposed to pay were earmark for the desert tortoise. A million dollars no doubt could have kept the rescue station open a little longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:09 PM

Interesting to me is the sociological aspect. People showing up to protest but wearing guns? That's fairly new I think. Any takes on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

Hmm - how about additional conservation funding aid for by taxes on the rich? Or by what Bundythief should have paid?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:39 PM

Oh, and by the way, PeeDee - ya figure the preferable humane thing to do is to turn loose the tortises they know won't be ale to survive in the wild & let 'em croak slowly on their own instead of euthanizing 'em?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:36 PM

Well, Q...


You are working very hard to miss the point I made.

The BLM's job is to manage lands the belong to the People so as to pronvide raw materials, hunting, fishing, and even cattle so the McBurger customers will have something for lunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:34 PM

PeeDee- you're (wilfully?) ignoring the folks standing with and supporting the Bundy Bunch- the "Oath Keepers" and other right-wing loonie fascist militia and "patriot" groups -heavily armed, by the way - preparing for when Obama declares martial law and starts rounding citizens up & putting them in concentration camps & etc..

Having to deal with these idiots, I'd have sent a sizeable armed contingent, too.

This ain't about turtles. Screw the goddamn tortises-- its about a rich clown repeatedly breaking the law and thinking he's above the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:23 PM

Telling us that it is all about Cliven Bundy's cattle damaging the preserve set aside for the desert tortoise, the Obama Admistration sent over 200 BLM and National Park police, some armed with machine guns, to rout a cattle rancher, spending many millions of dollars doing so, while...


"Federal funds for a Nevada-based desert tortoise conservation center are running dry and wildlife officials plan to close the facility and euthanize hundreds of tortoises that were once classified as "endangered" and are currently considered "threatened."

The desert tortoise can be found in the southwestern United States, but its population has been dwindling. In some areas, the tortoise population has decreased by 90 percent since the 1980s, and in the Mojave desert the population is considered "threatened." It is illegal to touch, harm or harass these animals, and the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center has tried to increase their population ever since they were added to the endangered species list in 1990.

Still, only 100,000 desert tortoises are estimated to remain in the wild.

But federal funds are running dry at the Las Vegas Valley facility, and rather than release the animals, officials plan to euthanize about half of the 1,400 tortoises. The 220-acre facility will shut its doors in 2014, and the tortoises deemed feeble to survive in the wild will be set free. Many of the tortoises at the center were formerly kept as pets and are unable to survive in the desert.

"It's the lesser of two evils, but it's still evil," US Fish and Wildlife Service desert tortoise recovery coordinator Roy Averill-Murray told the Associated Press.

The facility usually takes in diseased or injured tortoises and nurtures them back to health, but new arrivals will most likely be put to sleep.

The Bureau of Land Management currently funds the conservation and research center with fees inflicted on those who disturb tortoise habitats. During the housing boom in the early 2000s, the conservation center had plenty of cash, since developers were frequently fined for disturbing such habitats. But since the recession, the BLM has struggled to meet its annual $1 million budget.

Over the past 11 months, the BLM has only accumulated $290,000 in federal mitigation fees that developers are forced to pay.

"With the money going down and more and more tortoises coming in, it never would have added up," BLM spokeswoman Hillerie Patton told AP.

The desert tortoise is the state reptile of both California and Nevada. Millions of these creatures once roamed the deserts of the American southwest and northern Mexico, but they are now a rare sight.

After news broke of the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center's plans to euthanize the vulnerable animals, a petition was launched on Change.org, asking the state of Nevada to seek an alternate method to keep the facility open.

"While I understand that budgets are tight and money is scarce, I believe that the funds required could be raised," states the petition, which was launched by New York resident Seth Webster. "…Please show your support and ask the BLM to cease plants to euthanize and find another way."

The petition had about 50 signatures out of a goal of 10,000 on Monday afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:16 PM

Left-over land nobody wanted--no harvestable timber, etc.

Oregon alone one million acres of old growth ancient forest is on BLM land. There is some harvest, but the forests provide cover for wildlife and scope for recreation.
Other regions lack the timber resources, but logged land is being re-forested and some of the ills of the past (uncontrolled mining, grazing, logging, etc.), are being addressed.
BLM lands between forested mountains provide pathways for wildlife.

BLM administers and maintains:
4500 miles of scenic, national trails
Over 200,000 miles of fishable streams
8900 sq. mi. of lakes
300 sites for watching wildlife
55 million acres of forests, including 11 million acres with managed foresting.
Generated $6.2 billion in revenues (2009) with about half going to states and counties.

Grazing fees are set well below "market." Bundy, never having paid for it, is entitled to nothing.
Bundy would have had no complaints if he had followed the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 03:28 PM

Thanks for telling us what we already knew, PeeDee, but its all irrelevant to the Bundy debacle.

Another federally subsidized, rich bastard on the wrong side of the law complaining about how hard he has it and getting a crowd of clowns together to whine along with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:56 PM

Mean while, back at the ranch...


Please note the the BLM is part of the Departement of the Interior which also manages all of our National Parks, National Forests. etc.

BLM got mostly leftover land that nobody wanted. No harvestable timber. No great scenic featues like the Grand Canyon. Just junk land that nobody wanted.

Their job has always been to manage the land for the benefit of the People. Their job was never to provide huge amounts of money for the rest of the government to spend nor was it their place to punish uppity ranchers and put then out of business.

People Back East do not realize the BLM helps get natural gas, oil, gold, copper, silver, water, etc. ad mauseum to run the country. The government supplies water at a price that is trivial compared to the cost of the giant dams that store it.

The result is that all the raw materials for Prosperity have been there for us to use. It has resulted in the most successful country Earth has even known.

Grazing rights are intened to help ranchers raise cattle that will feed people and provide other goods such as shoes, belts and wallets.

All good things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:37 PM

Well, it seems that the situation has become much more clear with some good investigative journalism I have read and I believe Bundy is, oh, what's the technical term? Oh, yeah... fucked. And for good reason, so it is said. I just hope nobody gets hurt.

Above, I mentioned jack booted thugs up the road from me... different situation altogether now that I understand the true story of Bundy. These bastards in NB.ca need to go. And you won't get the news feeds I get locally from your major media so I shall withdraw from any explanations.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:31 PM

:-)   We'll get to it. No hurry.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:29 PM

Thanks, Bro.

BTW, I believe I still owe you a CD.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:27 PM

Sorry about the misattribution, pdq. I picked it up at

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3142858/replies?c=23

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:19 PM

Oh, I see, PeeDee - www.ranchers.net, an obviously unbiassed source.

Now, your reaxction to the fact that tyhe Bundy Bunch has been trespassing on federal land for 16 years?

They shouldn't just round up & move his cattle, they should arrest him for crimiinal tresspass and for wanton damage to/misuse of Federal Property.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:15 PM

No, the statement I posted was by a working rancher and posted on www.ranchers.net, a forum of/by/for cattle ranchers.

It is well-written and puts many facts on the table in a polite manor, something that several Mudcat members are incapable of doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:07 PM

pdq's quote is from The Republic four days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:56 PM

OK, PeeDee-

1. We should believe this anonymous rancher from an equally anonmous source WHY exactly? Did you make him up, or just cut & paste because if its on the internet it must be true?

2. Ya think the BundyBunch Bills might date from before '98?

3. So he's been trespassing on Federal Land for 16 years, and he's still your hero?

I hate when people say we run our cattle on these ranges so cheaply.

I can understand why he's upset when people say "cheaply" - in Bundy's case it wasn't cheap at all. It was FREE.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:35 AM

I remember how startled I was when I first learned of the grazing-on-BLM lands issue in Oregon. A rancher friend of mine whose land backed up to some public land but who did not have permits to let his cattle roam said that only the BIG ranchers had access; that, he said, is how they got rich in the first place. He said that if they couldn't use public land they would have to reduce their herds.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM

"To environmentalists and the feds..."

That sounds like a rather peculiar combination.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

This is what an area rancher has to say.

Note the response to the claim that Cliven Bundy isn't paying his grazing rights bill. The area was closed to all grazing in 1998 so it impossible for him to be receiving grazing bills. No more chance of that than paying one's mortgage bill on El Capitan.



"Ill report all I've been told on this deal with my meetings with Cliven and others. In 1993 they cut their permit by 50% citing the desert tortoise competing for forage with cattle. Some permitees took a buy out and sold out. Cliven stayed and refused to take their offer. He says it was about sixty thousand dollars. By 1998 they had completely closed down the Gold Butte area to livestock grazing. Still Cliven continued to graze. Even paying the county of Clark in which he resides in, in Nevada. So those that claim he never paid are simply mistaken. Of coarse he didn't pay the BLM because they were not sending him a grazing bill, they closed the area to grazing. A side note here: look up tortoise euthinization. They have run out of money to keep tending these turtles they are raising. So they plan on killing all these endangered tortoises they have raised. I believe this is much more to do with a dysfunctional government than aRancher. I don't like the fact that this issue has divided ranchers against ranchers. The sad truth is the government is in a sad state. I believe Cliven could have handled things differently and he will admit to that as well. But ask yourselves, would you sell your lively hood out because of a turtle and some environmental groups pressure on the BLM? I for one would not and when they list this Sage Hen as endangered, I personally believe a lot of us will have to do as Cliven has done and just say enough is enough. I have a love of these ranges, and a love for my cattle, family and my heritage. (Not in that order) I have a family to feed. And I will fight to feed them. Anyway if you have any questions let me know. I'm knee deep in this deal. Especially my wife and her family. On other note.. I hate when people say we run our cattle on these ranges so cheaply. While our fees may seem rather cheap every year, I assure it is very expensive to purchase these grazing rights. Very expensive."