BS: Gerry Adams arrest

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 08:37 AM

"At what point in history was Greece in any sense "a British colony"
Of course it wasn't - it was a reference to British Imperialist behaviour in its effort to control the affairs of other countries - "British tourism" in fact - a drift maybe, but not too far.
I could, of course, have mentioned Cyprus, where the British Prime Minister of the day (James Callaghan, I seem to remember) colluded with fascist Turkey to ethnically cleanse the partitioned Northern sector.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 14 - 07:28 AM

At what point in history was Greece in any sense "a British colony", Jim? Misbehaviour committed against civilian populations by troops fighting an action in the territory where a campaign is being fought is an entirely separate issue -- a simple statement of the facts of the case, & in no way an attempt to excuse the atrocities committed.

The Palestinian League of Nations Mandate was a marginal bit of colonialism, if one at all.

Do you really think the Sub-Continent in any way a better place since the ending of the Raj? Honest, now?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 04:30 AM

There y'go Terminus
"Churchill was unrepentant, falsely claiming that the EAM had sought to seize power and had to be put down, even though the partisans had spurned a better chance of victory before Allied troops arrived. British forces then rounded up 15,000 leftists, deporting 8,000 of them, with ELAS responding by seizing thousands of wealthy Greeks. The tragic struggle in Athens broke the EAM. The agreement they came to with the British forced most of the guerrillas to turn in their weapons, with only a minority refusing and taking to the hills. Aris – one of the most prominent Kapetans – led one band that refused; he was eventually caught and beheaded. A White Terror gripped Greece as the newly formed National Guard (mostly ex-Security Battalionists) set about persecuting the EAM. War-crimes went unpunished, as former guerrillas were arrested, sometimes for acts of resistance; by the end of 1945 ten times as many resistance fighters as collaborators had been convicted, a trend that was to worsen with the beginning of the Civil War. Even in the 1960s Greek jails still held people whose only crime was fighting Nazism."

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 03:43 AM

"Still waiting for that quote from you by the way."
Still waiting for the response#s to the messes that Britain left behind them when they left their former colonies.
You have the facts about Greece - all accessible
Britain sent in troops to support the fascist side, just after Hitler had been defeated in Germany, my uncle learned of what was happening there and saw the photographs of soldiers bringing in heads to collect
bounties, he refused to go in as a training officer and was court martialed - simple as that.   
"Winston Churchill sanctioned heavy British involvement that decided the outcome. His instruction to the British military commander in Athens achieved instant notoriety: "…do not hesitate to act as if you were in a conquered city where a rebellion is in progress."
Do you Empire Loyalist dinosaurs live on a plateau in the Brazilian Rainforests or what - the Empire is dead and its reputation remains.
The behaviour of Britain towards their subjects was legendary.
They invariably crapped on the carpet and pissed in the fireplace - if you were lucky, they left the women alone.
The Empire collapsed after the W.W.1. bloodbath, leaving mess after mess behind it - still being cleared up after nearly a century, in Ireland, In Israel, in Pakistan....
The brutality of its rule was typified by the castrated Kenyans seeking compensation recently
Kenyans raped and beaten
Long after the death of Empire - the arrogance remains
Diego Garcia
Jim Cattoll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 14 - 01:22 AM

Ah yes Christmas the negotiations of 1921 where you claim to know more about what the participants in those talks said and meant that those participants themselves - old ground - you were shown to have been in error on that occasion and I do not intend rehashing it.

Still waiting for that quote from you by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:15 PM

William Hague is a plain speaking Northern lad. a bit like Jim really.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:52 PM

God friend Teribus you are a serious man, don't take my cynical comments so literally, read them as light hearted.

Regrading my remark about the British government going into other countries involving themselves in others disagreements, I suppose I was referring to William Hague and the situation in the Crimea. He was going on about Russia and what they did (rushing in to defend those loyal to them, something like what the Ulster Loyalists enjoyed)
Hague then went very quiet after a couple of academics from Oxford pointed out to him, eh, "it could hurt us more than them, tone it down". He then scuffled over to Brussels and spoke in a much quieter voice on his return.

The arms industry is big business, Britain is a major supplier to some of those countries or factions that cut hell out of eachother.

As I said, see me as a cynical old sod, not bruising for a fight here and hopefully not because you are British an I am Irish. I would prefer to stay civil, I can adopt if so required.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:41 PM

It is great to see you back, Teribus. Trust you've been well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:35 PM

Oh dear - nuffin do do with us again.
Ireland was forced into a treaty partitioning the country on a sectarian basis
Lloyd George gave an untimatum - sign or else...
Result a century of unrest.
Utter Imperialistic bollocks - but you know this - we've bee here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 11:51 AM

Israel Christmas??

The British left the League of Nations Mandated Territory of Palestine on the date that that Mandate expired. The State of Israel being declared on the date the British left. The UN had proposed a two state solution that was accepted by the Jewish population of Palestine and rejected by the Arab population of Palestine. Instead of opting for peace the Arabs elected to go to war, funny though because the self-same Arab factions now want to accept less than what they were offered in 1947. But they still do not want, and are not willing, to recognize the State of Israel or accept that its citizens have the right to live in peace free from external threat.

Palestine was a League of Nations Mandate assigned to Great Britain it was NEVER a colony or possession of Great Britain's.

Pakistan - 1947?

The violence started well after the date that both countries became independent:

"Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. No large population movements were contemplated; the plan called for safeguards for minorities on both sides of the new border. It was a task at which both states failed. There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history."

Ireland - 1922?

The civil war that followed the creation of the Irish Free State was down entirely to the two Irish groups involved and had absolutely nothing to do with the British. Ireland was a unified independent country for roughly one month during which time the assembly in the North voted to remain as part of the United Kingdom.

"There is in fact very little evidence on the actions of the the British and American forces in Greece other than the fact that they were there - the lack of information is noted."

Ah so if we are dealing in "facts" then the fact is you cannot provide any substantive evidence that any photographs exist that show British soldiers with heads taken from Greek ELAS fighters, nor have you any evidence that there ever was a "Bounty" placed on the actual heads of ELAS fighters.

The documentary once shown and banned covering the Greek Civil War "The Hidden War" makes no mention of it and all you can offer is a fictional account as portrayed in a Greek Film!!! Pathetic isn't the word for it – But there again I suppose that there are some clowns out there who think Mel Gibson's "Braveheart" is a factually accurate depiction of the life and times of William Wallace.

"You don't want me to dig out your suggesting my mother was on the game - surely?"

Want you to Christmas??? I have specifically asked you to – then when and if you do do that I will provide context and complete quotes illustrating the whole exchange – to show that this slur is just one more thing, one more example of shit that you just make up.

To Guest,LK 867:
"Many over here feel the problem is some British people still recall those days. Etc, etc

Can't help or do anything about the misconceptions of others if you asked the British public as a whole if that is what they thought of themselves you'd be laughed out of town.

"It is also important they make money out of other's misery. Which is why they are a major arms exporter."

Examples please of us {the British} making money out of the misery of other's? Major arms exporter? We tend to sell capital equipment items to Governments, not massive shipments of light individual weapons to terrorist organisations.

"The empire existed for trading purposes: gold from Canada, ivory from Africa, spice from India, tea and opium from China (via Hong Kong), aluminium from Australia, coal and slate from Wales, sheep from New Zealand, and soldiers from Ireland."

The British Empire was founded and created on trade – manufactured goods out for raw materials in, and along with that trade went massive investment in the countries involved.

Oh and as you failed to answer my request for examples of where and when the British government are always the first to get involved in someone else's fight or internal disagreement where the UN and NATO are not involved - The answer is that there aren't any.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 10:22 AM

That was a quick change of subject - you must do it again sometime - very impressive!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:29 AM

"I don't think we've ever been noted as being good tourists, do you?"

Well having gone on holidays in Europe since 1957 I generally experienced that British tourists were well received, although it was rather odd that to everyone in Europe anyone coming from Britain were referred to as being English. With the advent of cheap package holidays the "Kiss-Me-Quick" hatted crowd behaved abroad just as they did in Blackpool - downright embarrassments, but Britain does not hold a monopoly on foreign tourists behaving badly away from home base.

"Nor have we ever had the reputation of paying off our debts."

Oh 100% wrong there Christmas we have an excellent track record of paying off "our" debts.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:22 AM

"The sun never set on the great British Empire"
My father always used to add "Nor the blood ever dried".
"Many over here feel the problem is some British people still recall those days"
I once attended talk given by wonderful Dublin singer, Frank Harte to a somewhat stiff-necked audience at the English National Folk Festival (around the times of the 1970s Troubles)
His opening remarks began, "The English don't understand the Irish" - pregnant pause - "but the Irish understand the English"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:03 AM

I recall that big oilskin map in the classroom marking out the British Empire, as my old teacher used to say "The sun never set on the great British Empire"

They had a large navy equipped with the most advanced battleships capable of sinking anything else afloat and shelling enemy fortifications from long distances. Their army was small but they also had Marine Corps and sailors trained for land warfare.

Many over here feel the problem is some British people still recall those days. They consider themselves to be superior to other races and cultures. They feel they enjoy a superior way of life and have no poverty or want in their society. That they feel they have much to teach to lesser peoples. It is also important they make money out of other's misery. Which is why they are a major arms exporter.


The empire existed for trading purposes: gold from Canada, ivory from Africa, spice from India, tea and opium from China (via Hong Kong), aluminium from Australia, coal and slate from Wales, sheep from New Zealand, and soldiers from Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:24 AM

"What examples?"
You were given the examples of Israel, Ireland and Pakistan - perhaps it's too early in the day to find someone to read them for you?
"provide away."
There is in fact very little evidence on the actions of the the British and American forces in Greece other than the fact that they were there - the lack of information is noted.
All the evidence comes from verbal reports and from within Greece itself.
The behaviour of troops was dealt with in the Greek Film, The Travelling Players.
My father's (the one married to the "whore") brother, was a regular parachute commando officer who was set to train members of The Security Battalions Security batallions but when he was shown what was happening there, he refused to go and was charged.
"Now when did I do that Christmas?"
You don't want me to dig out your suggesting my mother was on the game - surely?
Don't you think it's time to realise how thuggishly ridiculous you look talking down to people from the holes you are constantly digging for yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:58 AM

I once talked to an old sailor who said his shipmates were all disgusted when they were offered bounties on the number of German sailors killed in a battle in the south atlantic in ww1.

having said that - I suppose we could put our hands in our pockets and said - none of my business guv' - when Hitler was rampaging round Europe, many of our neighbours did just that. we could pretend that America didn't make a first rate ally in that conflict and that we didn't owe them anything - many of our neighbours who would still be under the Nazis without the yanks - still do.

but I don't respect them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:52 AM

"You have some examples of messes left behind by the Empire and the repercussions of them - deal with them and I'll be happy to supply plenty more."

QUE?? What examples?

Commonwealth of Nations - Member States:
Antigua & Barbuda
Australia
Bahamas
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belize
Botswana
Brunei
Cameroon
Canada
Cyprus
Dominica
Fiji
Ghana
Grenada
Guyana
India
Jamaica
Kenya
Kiribati
Lesotho
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Malta
Mauritius
Mozambique - (No previous historical connection to UK)
Namibia
Nauru
New Zealand
Nigeria
Pakistan
Papua New Guinea
Rwanda - (No previous historical connection to UK)
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Samoa
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Solomon Islands
South Africa
Sri Lanka
Swaziland
Tanzania
Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago
Tuvalu
Uganda
United Kingdom
Vanuatu
Zambia

All of whom. according to you suffered so greatly under the yoke of Great Britain (Apart from Mozambique and Rwanda)that on gaining independence were so eager to run away from the UK that they all voluntarily joined this organisation of former colonies, Dominions, Crown Properties and Protectorates - Christmas - you're a joke.


"The Greek incident of offering bounties is well known, particularly in modern Greece, and there are photographs of them"

Ah good so you could provide links to them then - provide away.

"I suppose you are now going to insult another member of my family by denying his war record, just as you described my long-dead mother a whore"

Now when did I do that Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:11 AM

Empire loyalist bullshit Terrytoon
You have some examples of messes left behind by the Empire and the repercussions of them - deal with them and I'll be happy to supply plenty more.
The Greek incident of offering bounties is well known, particularly in modern Greece, and there are photographs of them
I suppose you are now going to insult another member of my family by denying his war record, just as you described my long-dead mother a whore - a fine example of British manhood!
Ji Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:00 AM

"One thing that always puzzles me is why the British government are always the first to get involved in someone else's fight or internal disagreement."

Examples please where the UN or NATO are not involved?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:49 AM

One thing that always puzzles me is why the British government are always the first to get involved in someone else's fight or internal disagreement. France, Germany, Spain or Italy all seem to stay out of it and leave it to Brussels, NATO or the UN.

Britain are always the first to pledge financial or military support before anyone else and quick to send out some minister to voice Britain's disapproval.

Maybe they are just being charitable or upstanding to some nation in a corner, but the days of the empire are over and I would imagine British taxpayers would prefer their local Accident and Emergency unit stays open or their potted road surfaces gets resurfaced instead of a bucket of stones heeled into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:49 AM

Jim Carroll - Date: 08 May 14 - 03:52 AM

Complete and utter bollocks as usual Christmas

This imposition of culture in years gone by - evidenced of course by the fact that we can walk down any town or village in India or Pakistan and find chip shops and pubs selling "Bitter" on the corner of every street.

Those former tourist days, you referred to were those the ones that brought and introduced democracy to the world? The ones that all but eliminated piracy and slavery throughout the world? The ones that raised the fight to eliminate diseases that previously had killed millions? Ah yes I remember them well.

The abandonment of the former British Empire is known as having been the most peaceful end of any Empire in history. And after all that destruction and hate you imply and refer to how on earth would it have been possible to create the second largest international organisation in the world - namely - The Commonwealth of Nations?

I would love to hear more about this "Bounty on Heads" paid to British Troops during the Greek Civil War Christmas? Who was it offered and paid by? But I don't expect to hear any more about it from anyone, especially not you Christmas.

"Religion became a feature because the British made it so by facilitating the creation of a Protestant State - that has been their stance ever since"

First England and then separately Scotland and then the rest of the United Kingdom became a Protestant country for very good reasons:

1: Rampant abuses and corruption within the Church of Rome
2: Serious and persistent attempts by the Catholic European super-powers of the day Spain and France to conquer and destroy Britain.

Hence the Act of Settlement 1701 and other Acts restricting the ability and opportunity for Catholics of exercising power within the realm.

Today only the Act of Settlement remains all other restraining acts against Catholics have been repealed.

1766 the Papacy recognises the Hanoverian Succession and Hanoverian dynasty as the lawful rulers of Great Britain and Ireland.

1774 - The Quebec Act ended restrictions on Roman Catholics in Canada

1778 - First Roman Catholic Relief Act

1791 - Second Roman Catholic Relief Act

1828 - Repeal of the Test Acts

1829 - Third Roman Catholic Relief Act

1832 - The Reform Acts

So Christmas things DID NOT just stay the same, quite the reverse in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 03:52 AM

"holiday-makers with no more imagination than to regard time off"
My point is that people travelling to Britain tend to behave far better than many Britons travelling to other countries, and in general, they receive a far better welcome than visitors to these islands - nothing disingenuous about that - we are not known as a hospitable race.
Britain gave the world such holidaymakers for centuries - they travelled all over the globe, destroyed their cultures and imposed their own, set the inhabitants working for them, punished them when they got out of line and bled the lands of their wealth - all in the name of God, King and Country - and many still hark back to the good old days of Empire.
When we pulled out, invariably we left behind a mess - economies destroyed by manipulation, peoples demoralised and divided - much of the mess of the world today can be traced back to the British Empire, asn can be the superior position Britain holds in the world today.
Last year, a group of Kenyans visited Britain seeking compensation for having been castrated for being Mau-Mau suspects.
When we pulled out of these countries, we left behind chaos - often we left to the sound of gunfire ad division, such as in the cases of Israel, Pakistan and Ireland.
My Uncle (a W.W.2. decorated war hero) once told me how he was court martialed for refusing to fight in the Civil War in Greece - his reason for refusing was he had been shown photographs of British soldiers bringing in the heads of slaughtered Greek resistance fighters in order to collect the bounty on them.
I don't think we've ever been noted as being good tourists, do you?
Nor have we ever had the reputation of paying off our debts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:31 PM


At what number of years' residence then is a person or a group no longer "foreigners" and given a pass permitting them to force others to adjust their lifestyles and mores with your approval?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:37 PM

Greg F: Opening salvo on your last post truly desperate, I fear - even by your customary exiguous standards of argument. Not deserving, as the great Jane Austen put it, the compliment of rational opposition.

Jim: Agree re places to avoid because of the shame-making shenanigans of the worst of the British abroad; but holiday-makers with no more imagination than to regard time off as nothing but increased hours in which to get obnoxiously pissed (with, it should be added, the active & enthusiastic encouragement of the locals making a fine profit therefrom), hardly in same universe of discourse as alien elements feeling they have the right to import their own customs, usages & compulsions in their baggage, and have them unquestioningly accepted within other jurisdictions in which they have chosen to settle for the nonce. Fear of giving offence by challenges to such conduct, for fear of being misinterpreted as unworthily motivated, is what leads to such abuses as "grooming" &c; and it is disingenuous to attempt to deny it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:23 PM

Ah Sandinos in Water Street Jim. Good call, great bar.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:10 PM

I find nothing threatening about the Muslim - or any religion - I do find some of the churchmen somewhat intimidating sometimes - but again - that goes for any religion."
It is important to remember that muslim and christian religions both have differing sects, and that within the muslim religion, there are many different interpretations of the koran, similiar to the christian sects varying interpreation of the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:04 PM

"Come down to the Emerald Road House here on some Friday night at chucking out time and you will add the Irish to that list Jim ! "
They tend to be more docile drinkers here on the West Coast L - though I have had some wonderful pints in Ballyliffin.
Hope to get round to drinking in my mate Joe's pub in Derry sometime, and take a look at his pin-ups of Che, Zapata, and Fidel decorating the walls.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:00 PM

Come down to the Emerald Road House here on some Friday night at chucking out time and you will add the Irish to that list Jim ! Christ drink has a lot to answer for over here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:55 PM

Well. ~M~, the "indigenous population, established over the generations" in the U.S. al least, are the several Native American tribes. The rest of us are immigrants.

But perhaps you're referring to the population of Britain pre-Roman invasion or pre-1066?

Besides, what does it matter where a particular group of lunatics forcing others to adjust their lifestyles and mores to the lunatics' requirements originated from or how long they have been in a particular country?

Unless one is particularly xenophobic, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:47 PM

"so I should hope,, as a matter of courtesy"
As a matter of self-preservation too.
Wish I could have said the same about some of the Brits we've met abroad - we learned very quickly that places like Faliraki and Aya Napa were places not to spend time in.
I've visited four Muslim countries and spent time in others with large Muslim communities and on each occasion we were greeted with the same courtesy and friendly curiosity that I came to expect in Britain.
I find nothing threatening about the Muslim - or any religion - I do find some of the churchmen somewhat intimidating sometimes - but again - that goes for any religion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:32 PM

Not sure what you mean, Greg. You are speaking of a part of the indigenous population, established over the generations, even though their views might not accord with some putative 'norm'; not of, at best, second generation incomers.

Can you really not see the distinction? Dear me!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:26 PM

demanding — all our traditional lifestyle & mores to be adjusted to their requirements

Yup. Just like the fundagelical "Christians"[sic], particularly in the U.S. of A..

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:25 PM

LoL, LK. Point taken!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:22 PM

MtheGM, "its gross discourtesy, in coming in and expecting — nay, demanding — all our traditional lifestyle & mores to be adjusted to their requirements" Clearly you speak of my late American mother in law and her two daughters !

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:11 PM

Well, Jim; you will probably not find this an acceptable rejoinder; but as to "found rank and file Muslims in the UK tolerant of other religions";

so I should hope,, as a matter of courtesy!

They have, after all, opted to live in a country where theirs is not the majority, or the 'established', populace; and I am happy to learn of such reasonable courtesy on the part at least of the part of the demographic from whom you have experienced this, towards their host community.

I have remarked before that I think that one of the faults of Islamism (as presently understood), even if only a comparatively minor one, is its gross discourtesy, in coming in and expecting — nay, demanding — all our traditional lifestyle & mores to be adjusted to their requirements.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 12:49 PM

"But surely, Jim, the degree of toxicity of the mix will depend on the particular demands made by its precepts and injunctions on the particular religion's followers"
Speaking from a limited experience, I, like GUEST,LK 867 found rank and file Muslims in the UK tolerant of other religions far more than indigenous Brits are of theirs (thanks to the efforts of the Daily Mail, BNP, Ukip - and most of all, politicians wishing to win elections.
Your "volcano is very much a man-made construction as far as I'm concerned.
This doesn't mean there aren't rotten apples in any religious barrel - they are still sorting out the damage done by Christian ones here in Ireland.
All churches abuse the power given to them if they are allowed to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 12:26 PM

Sadly the North of Ireland has seen a 70% rise in hate crime against Eastern Europeans.

I'm sure Ian Paisley will be chuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 12:21 PM

I have noticed much has been said here regarding Islamic radicalism, possibly leaking in from another thread. I do not intend getting into a debate over this, I see it as an British problem, not an Irish one, so my views on it are meaningless.

There is a sizable Muslim community here in the North of Ireland, they seem to get on well in business and keep themselves to themselves, any I know are like the Chinese community, decent and hard working.

Sadly the North of Ireland has seen a 70% rise in hate crime against Eastern Europeans.

The PSNI said the UVF and UDA are behind it. Only three weeks ago up to 100 masked and armed UDA men laid siege on a housing estate in the town of Larne. They set about destroying three properties and painted slogans of hate on many other properties.

As a republican I find this sickening, I am not posting this to have a go at Loyalist paramilitaries, but if I knew of one republican EVER involved in any related incident towards another because of his race, I would hope he received an Irish O.B.E. (One Behind the Ear)

The UDA and UVF may have decommissioned some of its weaponry, but it needs to decommission the racist mindset that grips many within their ranks. Such attacks are cowardly, and have the unpleasant taste of ethnic cleansing.

One of the most appalling aspects of the attacks was that a baby of 5 days old was among those targeted. Christ what kind of man orders a mother holding a 5 day old baby out of her home. This infant is no different from any other child in their vulnerability and need for human love and protection. That the pernicious viciousness of racist violence should visit them at so tender an age is loathsome.


Their bigoted moronic stupidity must be laid bare so that everyone can see the level of intellect that drives the violence against Romanians and Polish citizens over here trying to make a better life for themselves.


Many say the racists have a right to be nowhere but jail, bullshit, they either belong in a zoo or in a bog. When cancer hit's the body the immediate task is to cut it out, same goes for these cowards.

A friend of mine here in Belfast is a community activist, two weeks ago he received a warning from the PSNI of a death threat against him because of his role in defending Romanians against racism and organising an event for the Polish community regarding a Polish pope being made a saint.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:35 AM

But surely, Jim, the degree of toxicity of the mix will depend on the particular demands made by its precepts and injunctions on the particular religion's followers. We have been into all this. Ms Hirsi Ali [& I follow her here] believe these to be more aggressively based in Islam than in others. Which is, as they say, where we came in, is it not?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:19 AM

Religion became a feature because the British made it so by facilitating the creation of a Protestant State - that has been their stance ever since - the maintenance of the status quo - the old rule of thumb divide-and conquer ascertained that religion remained a feature in the fight for independence.
As I have already pointed out, among ordinary people, there is little problem with differences of belief - I have always found that to be the same with Catholics, Protestants, Muslims.... whoever.
I maintain that religion and politics are a toxic mix because all Politicians are happy to use people's faiths to set them at each other's throats, and most churches invariably support the establishment against the people.
What's your point Terrytoon?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:15 AM

Of course. No offence i' the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:05 AM

Sorry MtheGM I misunderstood your comment, the fault is mine please accept my apologizes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:57 AM

I didn't exactly "liken the IRA to the Taliban". I was simply pointing out to Jim that it was no more forced on the part of someone above that he was denouncing for doing so, than for him to liken the Irish situation explicitly to that in the Middle East, which I do not see as particularly similar except insofar as they are both territorially/ambivalently·religiously based; just as both the IRA & Taliban are politically-motivated terrorist groups. My comparison was not supposed to be any more specific than that -- hence I feel the word "liken" not to be altogether applicable.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:44 AM

"The Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) is an Irish republican socialist paramilitary group formed in December 1974" – So not a religious organization then?

"The Official Irish Republican Army or Official IRA (OIRA) was an Irish republican paramilitary group whose goal was to remove Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom and create a "workers' republic" encompassing all of Ireland – "Marxist in Nature" – about as far as you could possibly get from a religiously based group, Catholic or Protestant.

"The Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) was an Irish republican paramilitary organization that sought to remove Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom and bring about an independent republic encompassing all of Ireland - So not sectarian at all then?

So on balance going along with Guest,LK867, and the above descriptions of the parties involved there is NO "Nationalist" side in the game, there is no sectarian (Catholic) dimension to Irish Republicanism and that being the case how can it be about religion.

As Hamish Imlach put it in his song "The Derry and Cumberland Boys"

When asked what they think o' religion
They'll say "Aw religions aw right"
But these guys are only religious
When they want an excuse for a fight

Just like you Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:32 AM

It is interesting that MtheGM likens the IRA to the Taliban. The only other person I ever heard make this comparison was is a firebrand Protestant Ulsterman called Norman Baxter who went out to take on the Taliban.

It was also Baxter who urged the PSNI to launch this investigation into the Sinn Fein leader's alleged role in the 1972 abduction and killing of Jean McConville, He appears to have been the first figure of any note – certainly the first with a media presence and extensive police connections – to call publicly for action to subpoena video tapes held by Boston College, Massachusetts, in which two ex-IRA members claim that Adams, as a senior IRA commander in Belfast, and had ordered the killing of Mrs. McConville. I recall he once roared " This poor woman may have heard herself condemned from the lips of demon of death himself". He urged Mrs. McConville's family to try instead, or as well, to bring civil proceedings – where the standard of proof is less daunting than in a criminal case which they are currently considering.

Baxter, a well known outspoken former Detective Chief Superintendent in the RUC used to preach from the pulpit that the British were bending over backwards to appease these no good pro-peace process republicans and that as a result IRA victims would end up being denied justice. The fact that 71% of the people of Ireland wanted the Good Friday Agreement went over his head.

Baxter said the Royal Ulster Constabulary, once the world's most effective anti-terrorist force who got the job. He was very outspoken about the new 50 -50 recruitment of the PSNI and shared government Assembly. He took his redundancy as he couldn't take any more of it and signed up with a private firm of security consultants "New Century", founded and led by Belfast-born Tim Collins, a commander in the Royal Irish Rangers who became a star of the British tabloid press in 2003 for a stirring speech he is said to have delivered to troops in Kuwait on the eve of their advance into Iraq.
(The only record comes from an embedded Daily Mail reporter who claims that she took verbatim notes of the desert oration.)

Baxter brought a contingent of his followers with him, former RUC officers, as well as ex Ulster Defence Regiment soldiers with experience in covert operations in the North. More than half of them came home as soon as the Taliban shot one of their men dead.


The level of hatred – it is not too strong a word – of Baxter and many of his former colleagues at the new status of individuals in the North of Ireland who hold office is unconcealed, he said . "Sinn Fein and the IRA have a record of human rights abuse that would equal some Nazi units in the Second World War, and yet they currently wear the duplicitous clothes of human rights defenders with such ease."

The pursuit of Adams and others must be seen by Baxter and his colleagues as unfinished business. As I said, I am no lover of Sinn Fein, but maybe there is something in what they say about "old hands pulling new strings".

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:51 AM

I think a lot of people are considering voting Sinn Feín, which seems to have been what all this is about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:50 AM

I am considering voting Sinn Fein in national elections, I have changed my mind about voting for SF in up coming COUNCIL ELECTION, the reason is that they had a town councillor, who did not vote against several IMO important local issues, but proved himself to be the same thing as all the other parties. The arrest of Gerry Adams does not affect my voting intentions, one way or the other as far as iam concerned it is a red herring

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:46 AM

Don't agree Mike - but that was not the point Keith and Musket were trying to make anyway.
It was a dialogue on what is happening in Afghanistan which degenerated into a spelling bee.
I really wouldn't have been too bothered if Keith hasn't persistently used 'thread drift' as an attempt to control arguments in the past.
Anyway - let's get back to watching him try to score points before we get accused of "thread drift" shall we.   
"I am wondering why? when? where? how? it became a conflict between religions."
It's pretty well covered here: 07 May 14 - 03:50 AM
Most of it dates back to the time Henry VIII was trying to get his leg over.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:29 AM

Jim: Don't mean to flog this particular slight drift to death; but surely some comparisons could be made between Taliban & some of the Cat & Prod terrorist organisations who have played so prominent a part in the events under discussion. In particular, is not Adams' formal membership or otherwise of {P}IRA one of the significant issues being canvassed? So mention of similar movements elsewhere could perhaps have as much relevance as of comparable forms of political intransigence in other places?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:59 AM

I suppose the priests had the job of burying a lot of rebels and comforting their families. Pearse and Devalera were very committed Catholics.

it seems to me sf could achieve Irish unity in about ten minutes by making it an English party political matter. only the tories want to cosy up to the unionists.

English people are pissed off with their kids being used as canon fodder for questionable causes.