BS: Gerry Adams arrest

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:32 AM

"Taped interviews 17 hours in length would be inadmissible in court."
It is doubtful that this will ever come to court, and if the 'conspiracy theorists' are right - that is not the object of the exercise anyway.
The Old Guard in the Northern Ireland Police have never paid much attention to 'the book' anyway - they "do it their way" as 'Ol' Blue Eyes' used to sing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:11 AM

The BBC reported that former Northern Ireland First Minister Lord Trimble has said the biggest threat to peace in Northern Ireland would be if Scotland were to vote for independence.

Lord Trimble, the former Ulster Unionist leader, was speaking on the Daily Politics Show.
However, claims by the BBC that Lord Trimble had said Scottish independence would lead to a return to violence in the province were challenged by the former First Minister himself who accused the BBC of attributing views to him that he did not hold.

Speaking on Good Morning Scotland, Lord Trimble confronted BBC Scotland presenter Bill Whiteford who had earlier repeated the claim, saying: "Unfortunately you are not the only person who has made this mistake."

Referring to several BBC reports claiming he had said a Yes vote would mean a return to violence, he added: "I did not say that. It is not my view."

Referring specifically to his original interview given to the BBC Daily Politics Show in which he had spoken of a Yes vote causing strains and division in Northern Ireland, Lord Trimble said this did not mean a return to violence.

On the contrary, he added, Scottish independence would lead to the complete opposite of what the BBC was reporting and reduce further the possibility of a return to violence.

So another unbiased article by the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:19 AM

Warming up for the Glorious Twelfth it would seem Jim
Today's papers have claimed that the questioning of Gerry Adams is concentrating on his speeches and is aimed at charging him with membership of the IRA
So much for "new evidence" on the Mcconville murder case.
Adams has long been accused of being a member of the IRA and his speeches have always been on record.
He could have been charged with anything connected with this at any time over the last several decades - timing is everything, as they say!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:45 AM

I've been reflecting on this for some time, and have read carefully the comments of everyone on this thread, and I'm beginning to see that probably nothing would be gained by pursuing Adams through the Courts, and much would be lost. I particularly liked the comment that a whole generation of children have grown up in relative peace and harmony, which is immeasurably valuable. I have to admit I was perhaps wrong to condone Adams' arrest. Mandela's example is before us, in forgetting and starting anew. And he had every reason to let his bitterness and wasted years in prison urge him on to retribution. But I do still feel for the family of this murdered woman. No-one can make them forget or forgive.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 07:36 AM

Adams has not been charged with anything.
He is being questioned about an appalling murder, and who doubts he has the best and most assertive of lawyers at his side?

Jim, do you doubt he was IRA and high ranking?
Do you believe he knew nothing about this woman's abduction, torture and murder on his patch.
Could he have at least told her children where she was?
(IRA told them she had left them for an English soldier.)
Honest answers please Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 09:00 AM

The British establishment has never copped on that thuggish heavy-handedness simply doesn't work in Ireland
In 1916 a group of eccentrics took over the GPO and held it for a week.
When the siege was over the rebels had to be protected from screaming mobs of Dublin women demanding to know why they weren't "helping our lads in the trenches".
With brutish predictability, they were all placed before the firing squad and executed - the most prevailing image of those times was Connolly tied into a chair because he was too badly wounded to stand.
Within six months these men had been transformed from eccentrics to martyrs; Ireland entered into a war of independence, which led to an unsatisfactory treaty, a civil war and nearly a century of bloody unrest.
When will these morons cop-on.
A settlement has nearly been reached after centuries of conflict - this sort of thuggish insanity will only need to more body-bags.
Keith
There is already a support for Adams on the streets of the North and murals going back up on the walls - last week Sinn Féin would have had to fight for that support at the ballot box.
Why not try addressing the problem in hand rather than joining the marchers in their howl for vengeance.
As a supporter of Israel - you should know that states are built on terrorism and last year's terrorists are tomorrow's national heroes.
I don't subscribe to that sort of garbage, but you, with your permanent defence of Nationalist bloodletting, most certainly do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 04 May 14 - 09:55 AM

Good article in today's Independent. It is the most factual I have read regarding the McConville case.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-photos-link-gerry-adams-to-jean-mcconville-kidnap-gang-30242059.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 03:20 PM

with your permanent defence of Nationalist bloodletting,

As your lies go, that is a particularly nasty one.
You just can't discuss without doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:14 PM

I thought the discussion was fairly well reasoned up til now. Jim - that wasn't nice - none of the people here want to see violence - nationalist or otherwise.

as for the other line about the Brits only having played the one tune - thuggishness and heavy handedness - I would direct you to Adams's own account of how the Wilson government in the Cheyne House talks made every effort to ask them what they wanted - however the Republican deputation totally blew the opportunity - in his words because we were not savvy or mature enough to deal with diplomats and politicians - we just delivered an abrupt statement, and that was it.

when Thatcher and the gung ho types took over. god alone knows what was going on under the counter. everyone was talking no surrender - but deals were being done at every level. and thank god it was - because it was from these deals that the present - what passes for peace - came into being.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:54 PM

There was nothing "un-nice" about it - it is exactly what happened and it is what is happening now
You want to challenge it - go and read a history book - some of us actually lived through it Al.
Keith has defended every single violent Orange March that has taken place since I joined this forum - every one.
He has defended them as "pleasant days out" while there has been bloodlettings on the street.
The last lot we debated, he blamed children for three nights of violence.
You think any of this is not true- look it up - it' all there.
I hewv become sick to the back teeth of these threads being used to defend extremism.
Ireland is on the verge of reaching some sort of compromise and we have more of this shit
No more eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 05:07 PM

not true Jim.
Why not just discuss one issue at a time instead of always accusing me of having said nasty things, but a long time ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 04 May 14 - 05:12 PM

Well he is out, the case has been referred to the DPP (Director of Public Prosecutions) to see what charges can be placed against him if any.

This may be of interest for those seeking more information on the case.
http://thebrokenelbow.com/2014/05/03/boston-tapes-exclusive-content-of-interviews-sought-by-psni-revealed/#comments

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:18 PM

well actually Jim, I was telling you what Gerry Adams himself said about the Cheyne House business - talks initiated very early on by an extremely moderate and sympathetic government who had no truck with Paisley - and got told to fuck off for their trouble.

I don't like to think of the things that happened in my grandparents time , and events they talked about to me as history.....but I suppose it is. the same goes for stuff that happened in my lifetime.

as for Keith - buggered if I am going to research his words of wisdom. he hasn't said anything wildly inflammatory on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:46 PM

Those cowardly, vicious murderers are now ruling in NI.

Well, Keith, it's possibly worth remembering that loyalist murders far outweighed republican murders. Not that I'm justifying any murders. But just thought I'd mention it in the light of your very predictable post. You'll never be on the side of right as long as you live, will you, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:52 PM

I despise them all Steve.
I despise the "Loyalist" butchers every bit as much as the "Republican" ones.
I did not know about the numbers though.
Do you have a source for that?
The Republican paramilitaries killed many more people than any others.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 14 - 08:29 PM

Maybe, one day, before too long, we'll hear why he was held for questioning, and what the outcome was.
Until that time, it seems that this thread is just an opportunity for both sides to re-state their long-held prejudices.
Hardly an enlightening thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 14 - 09:25 PM

Well, Keith, it's possibly worth remembering that loyalist murders far outweighed republican murders.

Now, there you go again, Steve- trying to change what passes for FW Keith's mind with facts.

Its a waste of time at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 14 - 10:04 PM

well its enlightening knowing what everyone's thinking. personally I've been quite surprised bt Keith's fairly moderate tone on this thread. I think we all want the peace to last longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 May 14 - 12:54 AM

"what passes for FW Keith's mind" --

Rather a predictable cliché-ridden slur, eh Greg?

What passes for Greg F's wit, no doubt!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 05 May 14 - 02:56 AM

Odd. One of Keith's posts had me nodding in agreement.

Just the one mind.

I think I'll wander to another thread where I can shout at him and indulge in TCism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 02:59 AM

"he hasn't said anything wildly inflammatory on this thread."
Lynch mob-type statements on matters that are still under investigation by the PSNI on a sensitive issue like this are, as far as I am concerned "wild and inflammatory" - fairly mild, by his standards, but still uncorroborated and obviously partisan (04 May 14 - 07:36 AM) - his record on Ireland speaks for itself.
That you don't 'like to think about what happened in your grandparents time' is your own business - some of us have become part of these discussions because we like to do just that - W.W.1. for instance, was a fairly popular subject, and will remain so throughout this year, no doubt - it's all part of our history (can't remember if you participated in any of those).
As with Keith's, Britain's record in Ireland also speaks for itself - not a subject to be proud of.
Some of us have had our lives shaped by these past events and are what we are because of events that happened in our parents and grandparents lifetimes - ask any "brainwashed" Irish American.
I understand that the results of the Adams' interviews are to be sent to the D.P.P. to see if there are any grounds for prosecution - so far, if seems to have centered around his alleged membership of the I.R.A.
That's the problem with all these discussions - an allegation is made, and before the ink is dry on the paper the accused is dragged out of the jailhouse and the rope is over the tree - lynch-mob mentality.
Whatever the final outcome of this matter, it really isn't the best time to indulge in this type of behaviour - not for those in Britain or for us living in Ireland - we really should have learned this lesson, for our childrens' sakes as well as our own well-being.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:07 AM

Greg, I think that Steve was mistaken about that "fact."
It is a fact that Republican paramilitaries killed many more civilians than the other kind, but no more or less evil and both a blight on Ireland.

The QC in charge of the prosecution service used to be Adam's own lawyer.
I doubt there will be any charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:09 AM

Adams'

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:12 AM

The McConville murder in my opinion was cruel. Hard to imagine the hardship placed on the McConville children particularly the oldest siblings in terms of comforting, reassuring and caring for the younger children before the intervention of social services which saw the family divided. This situation was exacerbated by the secret burial of Jean McConville's remains.


Since Gerry Adams turned up at Antrim PSNI station, by appointment, Sinn Fein have continuously voiced their disgust and opposition to what they define as political policing. This has included threats of withdrawing their support for policing. This would suggest Sinn Fein not only see themselves as being above the law but being above due process despite them pledging their support to the PSNI time and time again, and calling on the wider public to follow their lead.

A question many are asking is how Sinn Fein can expect people to have confidence in policing when they refer to it having a dark-side? When concerns have been raised about the conduct of the PSNI Sinn Fein have released statements saying the PSNI are only doing their job. In all their statements calling for people to support the PSNI I don't remember one single statement Sinn Fein made saying the PSNI has a dark side, well until now.

The fact is these 'politically motivated' assertions by Sinn Fein are only made in cases that involve Sinn Fein members or supporters. If you cast your mind back to when he was released after the 'politically motivated' Stormontgate allegations Denis Donaldson said, "It was political policing and political charges and the fact that we were acquitted today proves that." Shortly after that Donaldson was exposed as an informer for the British security services, and had been for 20 years.

But the politically motivated allegations aren't just limited to Denis Donaldson or Sinn Fein. When Gerry Kelly went land rover surfing and wasn't charged Unionists said it was a politically motivated decision. When Sinn Fein's Padraig Wilson was arrested it was political and when former Derry Sinn Fein Mayor Kevin Campbell's home was raided Sinn Fein demanded an apology because surprise surprise that was political policing too.

And on the subject of Kevin Campbell, I doubt Mr Campbell has been reprimanded for his comment involving Boston College researcher Anthony McIntyre, when he accused the Boston Tapes project of being a 'touting programme'. I would actually question the appropriateness of the language used by this civic leader and former first citizen of Derry.

Sinn Fein held a rally in support of Gerry Adams on Saturday which included the unveiling of a mural in his honour.

My first thought was "aww come on, all this for a three day detention." I for one would question Sinn Fein's lack of consistency, hypocrisy and absence, outside of reactionary lip-service, in the following cases:

Martin Corey was held in prison for almost four years with no charge. Where is their protest over his release conditions which effectively make him a mute internal exile?

Where was Sinn Fein's public opposition when Gerry McGeough was taken from his wife and four young children in one of the most blatant acts of political policing? It was said that McGeough's standing in opposition to Sinn Fein electorally was damaging to them and this was cited by some as the political motivation for his arrest.

Where was the Sinn Fein opposition to the brutal searching of republican prisoner Thomas McWilliams before being taken for medical treatment having suffered a heart attack? Or indeed after undergoing surgery, and despite being under prison guard supervision 24/7 Thomas McWilliams was still brutally and forcibly strip searched on his return to Maghaberry, yet Sinn Fein have remained silent.

Where is Sinn Fein's opposition to the continued use of lengthy pre-trial detention known as remand and draconian bail conditions? After all in cases were people get bail, these are not convicted prisoners, as in the case of Gerry Adams, these people are innocent until proven otherwise.

What I would further question is, now that Gerry Adams has been released will Sinn Fein revert back to their old policy of supporting the police or will they amend their policies in accordance with their current stance?

And finally, in light of all this, is the dark side of the force answerable to the District Policing Partnerships which Sinn Fein chair?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:13 AM

"The QC in charge of the prosecution service used to be Adam's own lawyer."
Corruption in the British Justice system in Ireland - nothing new there.
Te rope is still firmly over the tree as far as the same old, same old are concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:19 AM

Keith, you said
"The QC in charge of the prosecution service used to be Adam's own lawyer.
I doubt there will be any charges. "

You are correct that Northern Ireland's director of public prosecutions, Barra McGrory QC, is a former solicitor for Adams and he has already said publicly that he delegate a decision on the file to his deputy so no, he won't have any role in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:36 AM

Or influence?

Does anyone doubt Adams was IRA and high ranking?
Or believe he knew nothing about this woman's abduction, torture and murder on his patch.
Could he have at least told her orphans where she was?
(IRA told them she had left them for an English soldier.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:00 AM

I thought we were trying to draw a line under the years 1968=-2010.
Murder - OK if its a long time ago
Pinch a girl's bottom on ToTP - now that's another matter

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:12 AM

Adams was running the cages in the Kesh as far back as 1972. He was steel fenced all his life by his cronies, still is.

When you arrived at the camp, you were debriefed by more senior prisoners, Adams had set a security unit up, Freddie Scappaticci was one of them. When you arrived you were brought to the shower hut and questioned, often beaten.

Art McAlinden was the OC OF cage five at that time, a young boy called Paddy Joe Crawford arrived in, he was about 20 years old, he was an orphan, a nice lad, but very immature. Apparently he admitted that he gave information to his interrogators and that sealed his fate.

That night he was found hanging in a hut in Cage 5. Evidence was concocted to suggest he had committed suicide; the RUC's investigation was perfunctory, to say the least, and just 12 days after his murder an inquest jury decided he had "died by his own act".

That has always stuck in me, I would dearly like to see that case investigated. like the McConville case unless you get someone to publicly stand up and give evidence and provide proof, such cases go nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:22 AM

If Keith thinks, with no grounds whatsoever, that a QC can't be trusted to disengage, he has no understanding of how the law works.





Sorry. I just posted another thread under the bleeding obvious category.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:53 AM

Nobody knows what Adams was involved in or what he was responsible for.
It is thirty years since those events and the old guard of the NI police could have arrested him at any time for his activities between then and now for any of his activities - they didn't.
As they say on QI nobody knows.
There have been no arrests over the Bloody Sunday massacre even though the full facts of those events have now been revealed to the full
Keith's - and every bigot's attitude is "if it doesn't produce the result I want it must be bent".
What hope the peace process when you have to deal with this garbage?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 06:41 AM

No-one knows if Adams was IRA?
He was part of an IRA delegation in secret talks with the government in the 70s.
Consider Guest LK867's reports, and the risk he runs making them.
The eldest McConville said "The dogs in the street know."

Abduction, interrogation under torture, execution, secret burial.
It is inconceivable that senior ranks of the Belfast Brigade were not aware of the operation.
They would have ordered it and been kept informed of the progress.

Sinn Fein state that it is right to continue to investigate the crime.
They support it, until it starts to get anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 07:23 AM

So waht do we have - condemned if he is charged - condemned if he isn't charged - lose-lose as far as you and your Billy-Boy friends are concerned.
Why the fuck did Madge invite this scum to Windsor in the first place
You Christians do get me sometimes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 07:47 AM

I don't have to guess about Adams role within the army, I know it. I can't understand how the media has allowed him to get away with publicly lying about it and other matters.

Take these examples,

He told the family of Jean McConville, that he was in jail when she was abducted – but he had been out of the Kesh for over ten months !

He publicly claimed that a vivid prison memory was singing a Monty Python song, Always Look on the Bright Side of Life, with other inmates, after being brutally beaten by prison officers. The song was not written until a year after his release !

He spoke of supporting Aine, his niece, when she told him she had been abused by her father, Liam, his brother. He told her, "Our Liam can't cope with life and I am trying to get him to meet you, but you know he is a man under stress and has become reclusive" when in fact Liam was running a youth project in Beechmount, five minutes walk from Gerry Adams's home and the Sinn Fein Press Centre !


If Gerry Adams is charged it will be based on evidence from his own pen and his own actions (secret IRA talks with the British) and not anything coming from the memoirs of deceased IRA personnel.

Why are SF complaining about the arrest of Adams? Gerry has said for years now that anyone with information pertaining to the murder of Jean Mc Conville should bring that information to the PSNI even anonymously,then he complained at last nights press conference about police referring to information from witnesses "R" "S" and "B" . Maybe just maybe someone has taken him at his word.

Martin Mc Guinness stood on the steps of Stormont with Peter Robinson and head of the PSNI and announced that anyone who had information on those republicans who planted bombs or shot PSNI officers were to bring that information to the PSNI because these republicans were traitors . So if this is what they said then why are they now complaining?

I wish they would make their minds up. Sinn Fein's Kevin Campbell (a former mayor of Derry City and close friend of Adams) made a comment on Twitter referring to the Boston tapes as a "Touting Programme". As Derry's former first citizen, exactly what advice does Mr Campbell have for people who may be in possession of information pertaining to the circumstances surrounding the death of Jean McConville or other IRA activity carried out prior to the Good Friday Agreement?


In my opinion, they were in such a race to respectability that they discarded all and sundry around them and joined the opposition. "Come into my Empire said the spider to the fly"

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 08:30 AM

Jim, I am not part of your mad sectarian divide, and probably will never understand it.

Presumably "Billy-Boy friends" is a term of sectarian abuse.
You show your prejudice against the Unionist community.
You would never use an equivalent term against Nationalist people.
You are part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 09:06 AM

"You show your prejudice against the Unionist community."
No - it refers to the hard line bigots within Ulster - those who will be aggressively demonstrating their )superiority) in a couple of months time and those whose demonstrations you have described as "harmless days out" (or similar)
Your last support for this was to blame three days of rioting on "children"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 09:08 AM

Correction
Your last outing was your support for the Unionist Flag riots over Christmas
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 10:04 AM

I think you are a sectarian bigot Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 10:16 AM

I have no religion - my "bigotry" is aimed only at religious bigots like yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 11:15 AM

You come across as very anti the Unionist people, but I will say no more except on the issue under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 14 - 11:31 AM

okay - we've sorted out that you two don't reckon too much of each other.

now - do you have an opinion on this matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 11:53 AM

You've had my opinion Al - wake up at the back there
This arrest has been a political stunt to influence in the forthcoming elections
It has been suggested from inside the PSNI that the instigators are a cabal made up of the old guard RUC - which makes sense
Pay attention boy!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 12:42 PM

Interesting that Adams press conference was held in the aptly named "Balmoral Hotel" owned by none other than P O Neill !

Elections local government and European occur this month, they always brought a certain tension over there between the D.U.P. and Ulster Unionists, these days it is between the T.U.V. and the D.U.P.

The S.D.L.P. and Sinn Fein used to cut hell out of eachother. It was a battle of Republicanism verse Nationalism. Republicanism is the product of the 18th century, modernity and Enlightenment whereas the nation is an invention of the 19th century. It is the democratic element which distinguishes Republicanism from Nationalism. Republicanism is based on the "people" (demos), nationalism on the "nation" (ethnos). Republicanism is based on "citizenship" whereas nationalism on "nationality". If dissent is central to democracy it logically has to be central to republicanism. However the same cannot be automatically said of nationalism. If nationalism is not necessary democratic, dissent will not be necessarily part of it.

Today a fag paper could not separate the so called political and ideological differences between Sinn Fein and the SDLP. The T.U.V. are growing in strength as a more militant unionist voice. The D.U.P. are becoming the Ulster Unionist Party.

The GFA/BA is a Berlin style wall around any future attempts at a united Ireland, the people spoke, 71% wanted it so we have to accept that.

The Labour Party cuddled up to every party and wet nursed them during their term in office, this current coalition government doesn't give a toss.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 01:35 PM

The family say they may bring a civil action against Adams.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 14 - 02:17 AM

A civil action is probably the family's best bet at targeting Gerry Adams as in a civil case "the balance of probability" is the deciding factor as opposed to the "beyond reasonable doubt" required in a criminal action. In a civil action the onus on making their case falls to both parties in a criminal case it is entirely up to the prosecution to make theirs.

Against Adam's idiotic claims of "innocence" over the matter you have the testimony "evidence" given on tape and in interviews by two people who were former members of the Belfast "Unknowns" Price and Hughes who quite openly admitted that their motivation for giving the interviews was revenge on Adams for what they saw as the "sell out" of the GFA, both state quite clearly that Gerry Adams was their "Officer Commanding" and that it would have been impossible for the abduction, torture and execution of Mrs Jean McConville to have taken place without the express order or sanction of Adams in his capacity as "officer commanding". Unfortunately both these "witnesses" are dead.

Also drawing deliberate attention to Adams involvement are two "live" witnesses Rogers and Gilmour who in light of Adams voluntarily handing himself in to the PSNI for questioning have refused to make statements or give evidence, in a civil action, their silence now compared to what they stated earlier will be what will condemn Adams.   If you remember correctly the same thing happened with the McCarthy murder and the Quinn murder, shed loads of people "know" but no-one is talking – such are the joys of living in communities controlled by thugs and gangsters (Any claim that the Republican or Nationalist paramilitaries ever had any mandate from the people of Ireland to act as they did was blown clear out of the water by the GFA and in the results of the referendum in the Republic that followed it).

Those who were responsible for the death of Jean McConville both dead and alive will be tried for it and they will the found guilty – the chief witnesses against them will be Mrs McConville's own children who witnessed her abduction, they can positively identify those responsible, it does not have to prove that it was those people who unlawfully killed their mother, only that they were part of the trail of events that led to her death and as such accessories before the fact.

Christmas is correct, as things stand for Gerry Adams now it is a "lose-lose" situation no matter what happens the ghost of Jean McConville will hound him until the day he dies, as a politician he is finished. The murder of Mrs Jean McConville was described as crime against humanity, one of a number perpetrated by Adams and the men and women under his command ("Bloody Friday was the worst).

Irrespective of what Adams claims and no matter how hard he protests his innocence Adams has a proven track record as a liar and as Guest LK867 says everyone knows that Adams was a prominent figure in the PIRA and a commander in Belfast at the relevant time, it doesn't have to be proven to the population at large. Behind his back the whispers will always be that he was the murderer of Jean McConville an innocent widowed mother of ten children and the shielder and protector of a child molester – that will be Gerry Adam's legacy.

I have always stated that this day would dawn for Gerry Adams I have waited for it for near enough 42 years – now the law should take its course be it criminal or civil it matters not one jot to me the only thing that matters is that the family of Mrs Jean McConville obtain some form of closure.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 14 - 02:29 AM

Oh dear - now they've moved in the military our kids don't have a chance of seeing peace in their lifetimes, let alone in ours.
Vengeance if mine sayeth Terrytoon.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 14 - 04:23 AM

Teflon Adams walks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 06 May 14 - 04:29 AM

To a republican like myself who has long since stopped buying into the SF line and indeed the notion that for Ireland, republicanism is the Holy Grail and the only true way forward, events over the Adams arrest last week were fascinating.

Republicanism has become a catch-all, tired and much abused political 'philosophy' which all manner of carpetbaggers can legitimately claim as their own. Worse still physical force republicanism it seems to me always ends up in the same stable at the end of the political race, namely the runners up enclosure; usually led there by scoundrels of the highest order after good men have been executed, slaughtered and betrayed. It was with this in mind that I watched events unfold over the four days Gerry Adams spent in the custody suite in Antrim.

Big Bobby Storey was wheeled out to put the wind up the establishment and I'm sure they didn't need a TV to hear him in England he roared that loud. How dare they arrest the leader of Irish republicanism? How embarrassing! It became evident that something would have to give. It was a question of was the old RUC still calling the shots or would the English establishment rally to the aide of their new decommissioned, neutered and quarantined 'republican' partners in Ireland?


The best that can be said for all the tout scandals and paedo facilitation that has gone on and the endless lies coming out of SF this decade or more is that the police were trumped by the British political establishment and a wee loyalist mob were totally clueless for the world to see live on Sky News.

Then we had the press conference after Gerry's release. For his part Adams wasn't as smooth as he obviously thought he was yesterday. Perhaps in his haste to make political capital he hadn't given himself, at 65 years of age, sufficient time to get over 33 interviews at the hands of his new best friends.

Had he done so he would not I'm as certain as is possible with a chronic liar, have allowed himself to look so inconsiderate and self-obsessed. 

He tells us he was sitting in his cell thinking about Bobby Sands anniversary (which took place yesterday) and that the food was terrible in the Antrim interrogation suite, but not terrible enough after day two that he didn't fold and get it into him.

No white-house chef, how awfully awful. It was an insight into the man's personality and probably lets us see how much genuine empathy he had with Bobby Sands and his family back in 1981.

Or indeed for his sister when her shop in Dundalk had its locks changed on her in a panic by Adams crew to show their trustworthiness to their new found friends and establishment masters. A sociopathic display if an example is required for psychology students globally.  
In all of this the McConville family whose mother was dragged screaming from her home and murdered in 1972 awaited the outcome of events.

What emerged over the four days surprised and shocked many. Not only did the family know some of those who abducted their mum personally, they have had to suffer this knowledge in silence for decades without any help whatsoever.

This beggars belief when we consider Martin McGuinnes on the steps of Stormont with the PSNI head honcho calling people engaged in physical force republicanism 'traitors to Ireland' and for people to give any information they have to the police. At the time many felt it was a case of 'careful what you wish for'.


SF is now in the precarious position of having to decide if it will support the McConville family in their quest for closure.

IRA volunteers involved in the incident in 1972 may be worried that indeed the SF leadership will do so. There is a precedent for Gerry Adams placing his career before all else. Indeed there are several. The 1981 hunger-strikes when votes became the name of the game and more recently when his brother and dead daddy had to be dispensed with for the greater good of the SF leaders political survival.

Surely SF must assure the family they are under no threat in this new dispensation of total support for the PSNI? The only people to emerge from the last four days with any integrity were the McConville family. How can anyone fail to feel a heartfelt sympathy for them? Let down by the political establishment from the very top live on Sky News no less.


On the election front what we have now is a sectarian electorate in the north once again primed and ready to go. SF will feel the PSNI have been slapped down and the Orange mob made fools of again. In the south we have a society sick to the teeth of the FF/FG/Lab corruption which is grasping like a drowning man for any chance of a change, an alleviation of any sort from the economic nightmare they are enduring. In the midst of never ending austerity and chronic negative equity the parties in government have introduced multi billion euro bailouts for bankers.

They have refused to jail those bankers recently found guilty even as people are jailed for having no TV licences and are having their homes repossessed by the very same banks. Bankers' bonuses continue without shame, paying themselves millions for failure.

On top of property taxes are proposed water charges in a country that hardly goes two days in a row without rain. Yes the time is certainly right for a change in the south of Ireland. It very likely will happen and SF will do extremely well this time out unlike 2007. 
Gerry may feel recent events have helped claw back some of the embarrassment he suffered at the hands of Michael MacDowell back then.

But change that sweeps in paedo facilitators, proven British agents and perpetual liars and self-servers is hardly changing anything at all; is it? If SF and FF are what republicanism continually morphs itself into then I'm happy to say to Gerry Adams, I may represent no-one, but you sure as hell no longer represent me!

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 06:29 AM

LK867, Jim believes that your struggle was a religious not a political one.
Would you be prepared to give your view on the "islamic radicalism" thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 14 - 07:04 AM

Howe dare you bring this to another thread and distort what I have said you devious little shit
I saidin the case of Ireland the two were inseparable because of the manner in which religion has been used in Ireland to divide the population "dic#vide and conquor were the exact words I have used
You really are as fanatical as the Muslim extremists you target
Jim Carroll