BS: Gerry Adams arrest

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 07:07 AM

Also, Musket claims that most volunteers on both sides were church-going folk.
Was that your experience?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:05 AM

I myself have no problem with any race of people, Muslims or otherwise. I also respect the right of anyone to follow their traditions,( including members of the various orders associated with the Protestant traditions in the North of Ireland) as long as they don't force their will onto others.

Those within the unionist community or of the Protestant faith may have issues with my beliefs and aspirations, I accept that.

I have no time for sectarianism, no true Irish republican should use inflammatory language or commit acts against another individual purely on the grounds of faith or culture.

Regarding the Catholic church, many "old school " republicans were church goers, not something I can say about those I know from the 1970's on. I myself attend weddings and funerals in the Catholic church as I do sadly all too often these days in all denominations, but no, I am not a mass goer myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:17 AM

Thank you.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:25 AM

Fuck me gently.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 12:16 PM

You have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 03:03 PM

This issue is more appropriate here than on the Islamic radicalism thread.

I understood that the Republican movement took up an armed struggle against the Crown to unify Ireland, religion playing no part.

LK867 appears to support that.

Do you still maintain it was a religious conflict Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 14 - 07:30 PM

On the election front what we have now is a sectarian electorate in the north once again primed and ready to go. SF will feel the PSNI have been slapped down and the Orange mob made fools of again. In the south we have a society sick to the teeth of the FF/FG/Lab corruption which is grasping like a drowning man for any chance of a change, an alleviation of any sort from the economic nightmare they are enduring. In the midst of never ending austerity and chronic negative equity the parties in government have introduced multi billion euro bailouts for bankers.

They have refused to jail those bankers recently found guilty even as people are jailed for having no TV licences and are having their homes repossessed by the very same banks. Bankers' bonuses continue without shame, paying themselves millions for failure.

On top of property taxes are proposed water charges in a country that hardly goes two days in a row without rain. Yes the time is certainly right for a change in the south of Ireland. It very likely will happen and SF will do extremely well this time out unlike 2007.
Gerry may feel recent events have helped claw back some of the embarrassment he suffered at the hands of Michael MacDowell back then.

But change that sweeps in paedo facilitators, proven British agents and perpetual liars and self-servers is hardly changing anything at all; is it? If SF and FF are what republicanism continually morphs itself into then I'm happy to say to Gerry Adams, I may represent no-one, but you sure as hell no longer represent me!"
I urge everyone in ireland to vote for independent candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:38 PM

it seems silly to pretend that religion had no part in all this , Keith. if that's what you're saying.

the icon of the rebel priest fighting alongside the croppy boys, is a powerful one -like that of Connolly executed in his chair, the hunger strikers, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 May 14 - 09:12 PM

it seems silly to pretend that religion had no part in all this , Keith. if that's what you're saying.

Yes, that's what FW is saying, and its not silly, its idiotic and offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:20 AM

Religion is strong in Ireland, and there is sectarianism a plenty.
The issue of home rule is not at all religious, but is superimposed on a community divided on sectarian lines.

From "The History Of Sinn Fein and Irish Republicanism." on the Sinn Fein site I linked to on the other thread.

"We are dedicated to the reunification of our Country through political representation and through the election of our members by the people, and for the people of this Island regardless of race or creed.

Modern Irish Republicans trace their political origins to the movement of the United Irishmen (and women, lets be politically correct here as women fought in these battles too!)of the 1790's. The United Irishmen took their inspiration from the French Revolution and fought to break the political connection between Ireland and Britain, believing that only an independent Ireland could guarantee equality and prosperity for the Irish people.
Most leading figures of the United Irishmen were Presbyterians and a key part of their programme was unity between Irish people of all religions and none in the cause of liberty."

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:34 AM

well all that is true Keith. many prominent republicans haven't been Catholics - that much is undeniable.

however - the main bone of contention from the Ulster protestants, the one they always mention - is the prominence of the church -written into the Irish constitution - and the consequent loss of civil liberties guaranteed under British rule.

(lets face it - how many of these Yanks who are always bigging it up about being an Irish republican would like to live in a country where within living memory everything from abortions, contraception and Monty python have been banned?)

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:55 AM

Jean McConville was someone who crossed the sectarian divide.
A Protestant girl who married a Catholic boy.
A brave and hard thing to do. Probably shunned by her old community and clearly never really accepted by her adopted community.
Even her bewildered and terrified little orphans had no friend who cared when she was taken from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:07 AM

OK Al.
You accept that the Republican armed struggle was not religiously motivated, but a political struggle for a United Ireland free of British rule.
Religion played no part in it.

The British Army and RUC fought to maintain the status of NI as a part of UK until a majority against was achieved.
No religion in that either.

The Loyalists fought, as you say, against a religion being imposed on them.
Anti religious then.

It was not in any sense a holy war such as we are seeing being fought in Syria and in Iraq now.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:13 AM

well I dunno that I agree.

the Taliban have similar designs - they want to restrict personal freedoms. for religious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:23 AM

And when you have finished fucking me gently, roll me over and start again.

In Islamic threads of various descriptions, Keith has promoted the idea of religion rather than the more temporal aspects of sectarianism. With Northern Ireland he says the exact opposite.

After all, they are all Christians and in Keith's little world, Christians can't be associated with murder and terrorism. Only Muslims are into that sort of thing eh?

So.... We add religious bigotry to his homophobia. (Not difficult, see his awful posts on Israel.) All we need is racism and misogyny and we have a full house! (Until his club allow women to become Bishops and his continued support for his club, I take misogyny as read.

Looks like that nasty MEP pipped you to the post to fight for Newark Keith.

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:31 AM

Homophobia.
UKIP.
You have to lie about me because you can not challenge anything I actually say.

The Taleban are not in Iraq and Syria.
Sunni and Shia Jihadists (holy warriors) from many countries fight each other for being infidels.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:50 AM

"Do you still maintain it was a religious conflict Jim?"
Of course it was a religious conflict - there has never been any question of this - the Protestant majority was deliberately set against the Catholic minority - the British made sure that this was written into the 1922 treaty
The original aim was to Make Ulster a protestant province of nine counties. but realising that doing so would give Catholics a majority, so they removed three of them, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan.
The six counties were not randomly chosen, they were deliberately selected so that they would remain loyal to The Crown - a "good neighbour".
This led to a Protestant led administration deliberately created to be so by The Treaty.
Who the hell do you think you're telling what is what in Ireland - part of my own family were burned out of Derry and were forced to flee to The South.
The stated aim of the new leadership was to create a Protestant State; minimum property clauses in the voting system restricted the political rights of the poorest in the north, and, throughout the depression, there was pressure put on employers only to employ Protestants
There was deliberately instigated unrest between the two communities - rioting and burning of houses - inter-religious warfare.
This was the situation in 1935.

"Despite the display of solidarity between Protestant and Catholic workers during the hard times of unemployment and the hunger marches of 1932, religious tension still existed in the community. The scarcity of jobs and consistently high levels of unemployment made for severe frictions in North¬ern Ireland society. For the Unionist Party lead¬ership it was vital to keep the loyalty of the Protestant working classes, and Orange speeches fanned sectarian flames. Protestant employers were exhorted to take on only Protestant workers. In July 1933 the Fermanagh Times reported a speech by Basil Brooke, later to become Prime Minister in Northern Ireland, appealing to Loyalists 'wherever possible to employ good Protestant lads and lassies.' In the Londonderry Sentinel in March 1934 he said:
I recommend those people who are Loyalists not to employ Roman Catholics, 99% of whom are disloyal . . . If you don't act properly now, before we know where we are we shall find ourselves in the minority instead of the majority.
The Ulster Protestant League was formed in 1931 with one of its objectives being 'to safeguard the employment of Protestants.' It was a sectarian organisation whose virulently anti-Catholic platform frequently led to violence. In November 1933, a Catholic publican was shot dead in York Street, Belfast, the first sectarian murder since 1922. Sectarian disputes escalated through 1934 to a crescendo in the summer of 1935. A big Ulster Protestant League rally on 18 June was followed by two weeks of disorders, and led the Minister of Home Affairs to ban all parades in the city. But this would have prohibited the annual Orange parades, and the outraged Orange Order put pressure on the Government to relent. They gave in, the ban was lifted, and the parades went ahead.
Predictably, bloody scenes ensued. Shooting be¬gan in the York Street area. The Catholics claimed that the Orangemen broke out of the march and attacked Catholic homes. The Orangemen claimed that Catholics fired into the parade. Who fired the first shots is impossible to determine now, but Belfast was in an uproar, and within days serious rioting had spread from York Street and had broken out all over the city, in the Short Strand, in Sandy Row and Peter's Hill. Catholics in the shipyards were expelled from their jobs, and Catholic girls were expelled from the York Street and Crumlin Road linen mills.
The RUC could not control the situation, and British troops were called in to try to restore order. They erected metal barricades as a sort of peace line along the ends of the Catholic streets around York Street, as they were to do in 1969. Whilst trying to control a Loyalist crowd in the Docks, they shot and killed two Protestants.
The fighting continued for three weeks, although some of the barricades were not taken down for months. Eleven people were killed and nearly 600 injured. There were 133 cases of arson and 367 of malicious damage."
   
A year earlier, the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland had summed up the situation there perfectly:

"I have always said that I am an Orangeman first and a member of this parliament afterwards... The Hon Member must remember that in the South they have boasted of a Catholic State...
All I boast is that we are a Protestant Parliament and Protestant State."   

Rioting and disturbances were a permanent feature of life in the Six Counties and those riots were fed by religion and based on the religious divide and the discrepancy of living standards of the two communities - the 1960/70s were a natural continuum of all this.
This didn't mean that the people of different communities didn't get on - they do anywhere i the world and whoever is in charge.
The Six County State was deliberately set up on religious grounds and those differences were deliberately used to maintain it - by Britain and by the Northern Ireland Parliament.
The National situation of Ireland had been summed up perfectly by Connolly decades earlier "There is no real difference between being exploited by an English or an Irish landlord".
What part of all this do you have problems in understanding?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:31 AM

No Keith. I just give context to your statements.

The kids throwing Molotov cocktails at each other during the marching season. That's not because they were told the other lot worship wrongly then?

"The Taliban ( taleban ( sic)) are not in Iraq.."

Where did you read that then? Do Saudi backers care what peasants call themselves so long as Wahhibism is promoted?

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:39 AM

False context because untrue.
Was I wrong about Taleban not being in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:53 AM

I ask again Keith - What part of all this do you have problems in understanding?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:56 AM

As you are one of the main "thread drift" culprits - what the **** has the Taleban got to do with Gerry Adams' arrest - and why do you feel you can use any thread you choose to promote your Islamophobia?
Thake your argument to the relevant thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:57 AM

"I have no time for sectarianism, no true Irish republican should use inflammatory language or commit acts against another individual purely on the grounds of faith or culture."

But they did!...........And still do, whatever blinkered Keith may think.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:57 AM

He can't even spell it, never mind understand it...

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:59 AM

Taliban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban‎







The Taliban (Pashto: طالبان‎ ṭālibān "students"), alternative spelling Taleban, is an Islamic fundamentalist political movement in Afghanistan. It spread ...

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:11 AM

Take your Taleban to the appropriate thread and stop (deliberately, it would appear) trying to sabotage a discussion on what is happening in Ireland
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:13 AM

Just edited that in Keith?

One of my lectures starts with advising students to remove all traces of Wikipedia from their devices.

It is not a translation that requires a new word. As you put, the Pashto aligns to a definitive roman script.

Find a teacher to go through your posts before making a TC of yourself.

TC




For the benefit of anyone still reading this shit, Keith A Hole of Hertford is a pedant for such things so comes put fighting when his own lack of intelligence is highlighted.

For the meaning of TC, see the permanent abuse thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:19 AM

Taleban | Define Taleban at Dictionary.com



dictionary.reference.com/browse/taleban‎







Taliban, Taleban or Talibaan —n. (in Afghanistan) a fundamentalist Islamic army: in 1996 it defeated the ruling mujaheddin factions and seized control of the

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:29 AM

the bit I can't understand Jim is why you are SO very pissed off.

you obviously have great and intimate understanding of this problem can you not share your insight with Keith in a calmer way.

do you go through life itself like this? bubbling with rage.

try maynards wine gums. I find chewing a couple of these - the green ones in particular can restore one to a sunny disposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:30 AM

Come on. I corrected your spelling and you didn't like it. In fact you did it again.

I can spend a few wasted hours on the internet and find alternatives to TC if you want.

But it adds up to the same.

Just like when you reckoned Islamist purely means some terror idea, whilst the OED specifically says as the first interpretation, "of Islam." Then you said there is no Christian equivalent to the terror bit. A teeny weeny little bit bigoted view if I may say so?

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:31 AM

Whine gums?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:43 AM

"the bit I can't understand Jim is why you are SO very pissed off."
What's not to understand Al?
I put my points on Ireland calmly
My objection is that this thread has now been steered into a dialogue on Islam and spelling
I'm not angry - I object to an individual who constantly attempts to manipulate discussion using this forum as he sees fit
If I went through life angry I really wouldn't have managed to rack up the body of field work in traditional music that I have.
I just get pissed off with arseholes who deliberately set out to spoil things for others
What's your problem with that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:44 AM

you say tallee-ban, and I say tallyban
you say ulster, I say the six counties

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:49 AM

well you know he's going to say something. you must know by now that you won't agree...

you two, never get these deja vu feelings?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:03 AM

A 56 year old man (Alex Murphy) has just been arrested within past half hour in Belfast for abduction and murder of Jean McConville.He served a sentence for the murder of the two corporals.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:31 AM

This recent debate about Adams finds itself straying somewhat of course. The struggle from a republican angle is about achieving unity of this island. Loyalists wanted to secure that unity with Britain, you know the rest. On the republican side, groups such as the I.N.L.A. were sectarian, The U.F.F. and L.V.F. focused their campaign on Catholic civilians and were no better.

I make no excuse I speak as a republican, and as a republican I learned to live with history the need to draw the correct strategic conclusion from our political history is essential. We find ourselves at a challenging political and economic conjuncture.

Republicanism's critique of the UK state's occupation of the Six Counties remains valid as does our solution of national democracy and the establishment of the Republic envisaged in the 1916 Proclamation.

However the revolution has been halted. For those of us who remain committed to the view that republicanism, for all its current flaws, still holds the key to changing Ireland for the better our task is how to remake that happen. I feel Sinn Fein has failed us and the armed struggle is over.


Republicanism is emerging from a long, dark tunnel. For anyone with even a basic understanding of Irish history there is a sense of deja vu in the current situation.

Following the most sustained period of armed resistance to British state occupation republicanism finds itself not on the verge of victory but deeply divided and politically marginalised. The UK state's strategy of inviting republicans into Government but leaving republicanism on the outside has succeeded in destroying what was once the major threat to state power on these islands.


A standard reading of Ireland's political history is essentially the story of a series of indigenous uprisings against occupation stretching back 800 years. More pertinently for republicans since the United Irishmen's rebellion of 1798 Irish history is a series of revolutionary republican episodes ending in military and political defeats.

Throughout this history these defeats are followed by a period of reorganisation and re-commitment to advance towards the republic. In other words each generation seeks to advance an age old struggle for self government and the establishment of the Republic.

This teleological view of political history, the idea that history is advancing to a specific end point (for republicans the establishment of the Republic), is as common as it is problematic.
According to this interpretation of militant Irish republicanism our history is a unity of successive revolutionary ruptures ending in political representation. In other words our weakness lies in replicating the very structures of representation (and exclusion) that exist in the state structures. This is one explanation for why republicanism has historically been led by leaderships which turn towards constitutional nationalism.

The revolutionary praxis being used by republicans contained an error. This error, the belief that minor changes by the state signified progress towards the Republic, coupled with the view that victory was somehow inevitable has proved fatal for successive generations of republicans. There is nothing inevitable in political struggle.


We can see the result of this thinking all around us today. We are repeatedly told that some subtle reforms by the state at the behest of the representational group are in fact political progress and another step towards the Republic. In other words it is argued that state reforms for certain sections of the community are transformational when in actual fact they leave untouched the structural problems of British occupation.

Rather than advancing to the Republic such forms of political representation only make it easier for the state to incorporate these groups in a way which allows state power to continue unabated.


This also serves a crucial ideological role for the state. As the republican struggle is explained not in revolutionary terms but in terms of some ongoing negotiation for equality by one section of the community. The state is no longer the cause of conflict but now is seen as the remedy. Indeed many Nationalist politicians now seek to describe the IRA's campaign in terms that make it sound like it was the military wing of the Civil Rights movement.

Of course such a non analysis of the state ignores the fact that state apparatus are not politically (or class) neutral. Rather than an advance to the Republic this signifies an acceptance of the British Ideology.

The recent Haass talks offer a perfect example of how this works. While the participants return to their communities, puff out their chest and point to the never ending negotiations as proof of their relevance in fact the opposite is true. What was most striking about this charade was how weak and irrelevant the political parties looked. They represent not state power or a challenge to (or analysis of) state power.

There was no discussion of UK state occupation or any of the abuses of power, or denial of Irish rights, which flow from it. Significantly, this was because the parties themselves (not the state) had drawn the parameters so narrow. Their inability to not only solve Ireland's political problems but even to be able to think in those terms has been exposed again. They are destined to never ending talks about the symptoms not the cause of the problem.
The problems in working class communities is not that the local councillor, MLA, MP, TD etc is useless (although they may be) or that they represent parties which are useless (although they may be). Rather the problems in our communities are structural and related to the occupation.


The task for republicans in 2014 is to devise new strategies for advancing the struggle. So what do republicans do? They can state clearly never again to use arms in pursuit of their goals. Without in anyway acquiescing in the partition principle and by refusing to become co-opted into the British administrative system that manages the North, they can acknowledge that the Irish people have spoken.

While perhaps sympathetic to the spirit of what is being argued here it goes too far. The idea that republicans (or socialists or working class people) should cede to the state a monopoly on the right to the legitimate use of force is unreasonable.
In other words it deals with the issue of violence on the (liberal) state's terms. In order to understand the continued use of political violence by republicans we must assess this violence in republican terms. That is to say we must ask whether it is doing anything to resolve the problem identified by republicanism, namely, to remove UK state occupation and establish democratic relations in Ireland.


A key quality found in revolutionaries is their ability to live in the present and the future not in the past. In other words revolutionaries are prepared to give up (at least potentially) their future for the future of others. They strive in the present to alter the future but also contained within the revolutionary dynamic is the ability to alter our collective understanding of the past. Revolutions must be self referential. They must stand and fall on their own actions and rationality.

Or put slightly differently the decision to follow a particular course of action will be judged on whether this can be justified by an objective analysis of the conditions at the time. Political violence in 2014 cannot be justified because James Connolly thought it was the correct tactic in 1916. Arguing that killing a cop in 2014 is a correct tactic because the IRA thought it was a correct tactic in 1974 will not lead to revolution but rather indicates a form of monomania.



Both representational forms and military forms of republicanism up until now have replicated top down structure. Such anti democratic political forms create the same forms of exclusion as we find in state structures (ie sexism, exclusion of minorities, silencing of dissent, leadership elitism etc etc).

The days of political parties (or armies) telling the people what is best for them are over. For revolutionary groups to advance in the twenty first century they must be on the side of the people not engaging in vanguardism, eltisim or representational politics.

For republicans this must mean a multi-centred approach to struggle which prioritises strategies which place the people (particularly working class people) at the centre of our work. We must be clear the struggle is not about creating a new political party, or new political elite, rather it is about shifting power away from the state and to the people as envisaged in the Proclamation.

To paraphrase Greek theorist Nicos Poulantzas, the Republic will be established democratically or it will not be established at all.

Only through the exercise of Irish national democracy can the re-unification of the nation occur and the establishment of the Republic envisaged in 1916 become a political reality.

While the UK state continues to bolster its repressive apparatus through increased role of MI5, mistreatment of political prisoners, ever more intrusive and draconian legislation etc etc it has also altered its strategy as the political terrain has shifted over the last 20 years. The struggle has moved from the (predominantly) military field to being (predominantly) an ideological battle. This requires republicans to rethink all that has went before. 


We must also seek common cause with others in struggle. Historically solidarity for republicans has meant a one way process of people responding to demands of the movement. For republicans to broaden our struggle (and build our political strength) we must engage other groups and individuals who are out there struggling for societal change. That means developing channels of mutual solidarity which recognise that people are motivated to political activism for different reasons.

The struggle against racism, or gombeenism, or banksters, or drugs is also the struggle for self determination. Of course we know that but our task is to convince those people motivated primarily through these individual campaigns, rather than the national question, that republicanism is with them. To succeed we must develop a participatory strategy. This means building unity-in-struggle with non-republicans. Yes, there are people out there that are not republicans and they are not the enemy.


Republicanism's opposition to UK state occupation and the struggle for re-unification remain central to the like of myself. But it can no longer be the single front of struggle. The point here is that republicans do not have the political (or military) strength for a full frontal assault on the UK (or 26 County) state.

In order to build political strength throughout the island (and the focus must broaden out to the whole island) we need to develop alliances which will allow us to positively create space for an alternative to be built. Of course, we must also be realistic about what such an intervention can achieve. We cannot, as Louis Althusser pointed out, 'put bourgeois society in parenthesis in order to create the future in its midst'. However what we can do with such a positive, inclusive strategic development, is open up new vistas for republicans to begin work (with others) on building the new society envisaged in the 1916 Proclamation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:39 AM

"Take your Taleban to the appropriate thread and stop (deliberately, it would appear) trying to sabotage a discussion on what is happening in Ireland
Jim Carroll
.,,.

Tu quoque re Israel, eh Jim? [3 May, 0323].

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:49 AM

That's about the clearest and most articulate statement of the situation in Ireland as it is at present I've read in a long time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:53 AM

Yes Jim, and not a mention of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:54 AM

Jim Slaven wrote a good essay. It can be accessed at

http://thepensivequill.am/2014/01/on-rethinking-republicanism.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:18 AM

"Yes Jim, and not a mention of religion."
Stop superifialising the issue to score points Keith and address what has just been put in front of you.
It covers most of the points that interest me.
"Tu quoque re Israel, eh Jim?"
Sorry Mike - my Secondary Modern education didn't get me that far.
I don't recall anybody introducing Israel into this topic other than to make a comparison on how political stunt-pulling, such as the arrest of Adams, can inflame, and even sabotage a delicate situation - seems a perfectly valid and up-to-the-minute comparison to make - unless you happen to be a supporter of those who would set out to deliberately sabotage peace negotiations, of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:29 AM

"Tu quoque" [literally "thou also"] =, colloquially, "same to you".

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:33 AM

But it could be equally well argued that some parallels or equivalents or comparisons could be drawn from the Afghan situation, Jim. I can't see how you can consider yourself justified in accusing mentions of Taliban of irrelevance, when it was you who dragged Israel by the ears into the discussion. Sauce for the goose, mate, sauce for the...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: selby
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:37 AM

First of all GUEST,LK 867 thank you for broadening my understanding.
I am stuck now, as I understand it the republican movement was republican no matter what your status or religion, you believed in Ireland.If my understanding is correct I am wondering why? when? where? how? it became a conflict between religions.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:41 AM

"I can't see how you can consider yourself justified in accusing mentions of Taliban of irrelevance"
Because they have o relevance to this discussion whatever and there has never been any attempt to make them relevant.
Attempts to deliberately wreck peace efforts certainly do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:59 AM

I suppose the priests had the job of burying a lot of rebels and comforting their families. Pearse and Devalera were very committed Catholics.

it seems to me sf could achieve Irish unity in about ten minutes by making it an English party political matter. only the tories want to cosy up to the unionists.

English people are pissed off with their kids being used as canon fodder for questionable causes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:29 AM

Jim: Don't mean to flog this particular slight drift to death; but surely some comparisons could be made between Taliban & some of the Cat & Prod terrorist organisations who have played so prominent a part in the events under discussion. In particular, is not Adams' formal membership or otherwise of {P}IRA one of the significant issues being canvassed? So mention of similar movements elsewhere could perhaps have as much relevance as of comparable forms of political intransigence in other places?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:46 AM

Don't agree Mike - but that was not the point Keith and Musket were trying to make anyway.
It was a dialogue on what is happening in Afghanistan which degenerated into a spelling bee.
I really wouldn't have been too bothered if Keith hasn't persistently used 'thread drift' as an attempt to control arguments in the past.
Anyway - let's get back to watching him try to score points before we get accused of "thread drift" shall we.   
"I am wondering why? when? where? how? it became a conflict between religions."
It's pretty well covered here: 07 May 14 - 03:50 AM
Most of it dates back to the time Henry VIII was trying to get his leg over.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:50 AM

I am considering voting Sinn Fein in national elections, I have changed my mind about voting for SF in up coming COUNCIL ELECTION, the reason is that they had a town councillor, who did not vote against several IMO important local issues, but proved himself to be the same thing as all the other parties. The arrest of Gerry Adams does not affect my voting intentions, one way or the other as far as iam concerned it is a red herring

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:51 AM

I think a lot of people are considering voting Sinn Feín, which seems to have been what all this is about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:32 AM

It is interesting that MtheGM likens the IRA to the Taliban. The only other person I ever heard make this comparison was is a firebrand Protestant Ulsterman called Norman Baxter who went out to take on the Taliban.

It was also Baxter who urged the PSNI to launch this investigation into the Sinn Fein leader's alleged role in the 1972 abduction and killing of Jean McConville, He appears to have been the first figure of any note – certainly the first with a media presence and extensive police connections – to call publicly for action to subpoena video tapes held by Boston College, Massachusetts, in which two ex-IRA members claim that Adams, as a senior IRA commander in Belfast, and had ordered the killing of Mrs. McConville. I recall he once roared " This poor woman may have heard herself condemned from the lips of demon of death himself". He urged Mrs. McConville's family to try instead, or as well, to bring civil proceedings – where the standard of proof is less daunting than in a criminal case which they are currently considering.

Baxter, a well known outspoken former Detective Chief Superintendent in the RUC used to preach from the pulpit that the British were bending over backwards to appease these no good pro-peace process republicans and that as a result IRA victims would end up being denied justice. The fact that 71% of the people of Ireland wanted the Good Friday Agreement went over his head.

Baxter said the Royal Ulster Constabulary, once the world's most effective anti-terrorist force who got the job. He was very outspoken about the new 50 -50 recruitment of the PSNI and shared government Assembly. He took his redundancy as he couldn't take any more of it and signed up with a private firm of security consultants "New Century", founded and led by Belfast-born Tim Collins, a commander in the Royal Irish Rangers who became a star of the British tabloid press in 2003 for a stirring speech he is said to have delivered to troops in Kuwait on the eve of their advance into Iraq.
(The only record comes from an embedded Daily Mail reporter who claims that she took verbatim notes of the desert oration.)

Baxter brought a contingent of his followers with him, former RUC officers, as well as ex Ulster Defence Regiment soldiers with experience in covert operations in the North. More than half of them came home as soon as the Taliban shot one of their men dead.


The level of hatred – it is not too strong a word – of Baxter and many of his former colleagues at the new status of individuals in the North of Ireland who hold office is unconcealed, he said . "Sinn Fein and the IRA have a record of human rights abuse that would equal some Nazi units in the Second World War, and yet they currently wear the duplicitous clothes of human rights defenders with such ease."

The pursuit of Adams and others must be seen by Baxter and his colleagues as unfinished business. As I said, I am no lover of Sinn Fein, but maybe there is something in what they say about "old hands pulling new strings".