BS: American Pie

Subject: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 May 14 - 02:49 AM

Elsewhere, I made a comment about the phrase "American as apple pie" which of course has been baked pretty much everywhere for probably as long as man has been gathering fruit, grinding grain and cooking stuff on a fire.

I know however, at least according to a plethora of US TV series, that America really does do a lot of great sounding pie. What are the best classic truly American pies? Describe your favourite and offer a recipe if you have one.

Personal anecdotes are very welcome, after all - as famously noted by Proust - food is one of the things that evokes some of the most potent memories for us.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 14 - 04:59 AM

Pecan

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Amergin
Date: 02 May 14 - 05:01 AM

Huckleberry. It brings back lovely childhood memories of summers in North Idaho....

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 14 - 05:21 AM

Out of interest, I have rarely come across savoury pies in the US, either when I have visited or in popular culture. I know you have them, as I did come across some, but any idea why they are not as popular as here in the UK?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 May 14 - 07:35 AM

What is huckleberry pie? Never heard of it, I've no idea what it's like. Never heard of a huckleberry either for that matter, what are they like?

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:04 AM

Huckleberry

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Jeri
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:22 AM

"Huckleberry" at Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:22 AM

gnu - that link took one to Huckleberry Hound! However, I goggled Wiki Huckleberry separately, and found that it is a species related to what we call the blueberry., I think we have blueberry pies here sometimes. Tho we don't have that very characteristic American dish, pumpkin pie too often. Largely because we don't have many pumpkins; and those we do have, our Fairy Godmothers turn into coaches for us so that we shall go to the ball...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: pdq
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:26 AM

By the late 1800s, it was common for a US kitchen to have a pie safe.

Some were fine factory craft by most were either local-made or homemade.

They often had vents of sheet tin and the builder used a nail to hand-punch the vent holes.

I think you will find that most of the pies were meat pies, which enabled a very small amount of beef or mutton to feed a whole family.

My pie safe is used to hold CDs now and stands nearly 6' tall.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Jeri
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:29 AM

There's Shoo-Fly pie, which, despite its name, doesn't seem to have any flies in it. Just sugar. And molasses, and more sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:49 AM

Do you have mince pies, which are a popular Xmas dish here? I don't recall ever coming across them in the States. The mince referred to is not meat [mince here usually means what you call ground meat], but a mixture of dried fruits and spices; altho I believe the pies did originally have a small amount of minced meat also.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:52 AM

~M~

pdq... "I think you will find that most of the pies were meat pies, which enabled a very small amount of beef or mutton to feed a whole family."

>;-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: pdq
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:54 AM

I have always heard them called 'mince meat pies' and yes, they have a reasonable amount of finely hand-diced beef.

Pretty heavy food, usually reserved for the Holidays.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 14 - 12:01 PM

Am I right in thinking that when we in the States have meat pies we tend to call them 'pot pies' and 'shepherd pies'? Other than mince meat pies, which my family didn't normally make.

My family *was* big on(sweet)pies and cobblers.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 14 - 12:20 PM

Over here, a "shepherd's pie" is not really a pie at all, i.e with a pastry crust, but an oven-baked layer of minced lamb covered with mashed potato. A similar dish with minced beef is called a "cottage pie". Seems another of those 'divided by a common language' occasions.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 14 - 12:26 PM

Here in Canada, savoury pies are often found in the groceries, and at markets. In Quebec, and often in bakeries across the country, Tourtiere is a favorite meat pie- pork, beef, onion, spices. Many recipes on the net.

I will post recipes for 1-2 of the family favorites later, but here is a simple tourtiere- every family seems to have a variation.

1 lb. lean pork, ground
1/2 lb. lean beef, ground
One medium onion, chopped
Garlic cloves (1-2 if good quality, more if the vegetable type)
1 cup water
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1/2 teaspoon sage
1/2 teaspoon thyme
1/8 teaspoon ground cloves (some like nutmeg)
1/2 teaspoon black pepper (use white if black pepper upsets you)
Pastry for double crust pie, about 9 inch.

Combine ingredients in a sauce pan. Cook at medium heat until the mixture boils. Mix well, and simmer until meat is done (5-10 minutes).
Spoon into pie crust and cover with crust (a few slits).
Bake in 425F (225C) oven for 20 minutes. Cover top loosely with aluminum to prevent too much browning. Remove foil and bake for 20 minutes (or until nicely golden brown).
Cool for a few minutes before slicing.

Best if served immediately, but left-over pie may be put in fridge and then warmed for later use.

Some people make a sauce which is used to cover the pastry when it is served.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: pdq
Date: 02 May 14 - 12:30 PM

Never heard of 'shepherd's pie', but I recall having wonderful 'chicken pot pie'.

Odd that the beef equvalent was just a 'meat pie'.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Ed T
Date: 02 May 14 - 02:47 PM

Mock cherry pie 

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 14 - 02:53 PM

Wikipedia has a lengthy list of savoury pies. I count nine or ten on the list that I've had in the U.S., mostly in "ethnic" celebrations or restaurants. On the list, the ones I see most commonly are calzone, empanada, knish, pasty, pirozhki (various spellings & ethnicities), quiche, samosa, and spanakopita. The only all-American savoury pie that I know of is the pot pie - usually chicken, turkey, or beef stew inside a pie crust. Home-made pot pies are really good, and you can buy really bad frozen pot pies really cheap.

I've had both Polish and Russian pirozhkis. There's a White Russian community in Fresno (California) that makes "beerocks" (I think the name is a variant of pirogi) - they're like dinner rolls with spiced meat baked inside. If you're ever in Fresno, try the beerocks and the Armenian and Basque food.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 14 - 03:07 PM

Shepherd's Pie is widely available in Canada. Some branded (M+M), Compliments), some made in-store. Home-made is better, since it can be layered casserole style to make a truly tasty main course.

We used to make it many years ago in New Mexico, often an in-camp dish in iron pan.
Just a mixture of ground beef (lamb is better), green peas and/or corn, slivered carrot, some crushed garlic, perhaps a touch of A-1 Sauce in the mix, with a topping of mashed potatoes (to which we often added diced chives). Some smashed Garlic in the mix or that garlic in the little glass bottle.
Bottom crust, bake in oven or covered on stove top. We used a rectangular pan.

Some of the better recipes at allrecipes.com, but easy to make with what is on hand.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 14 - 04:54 PM

There is a traditional Quebec savoury pie called cipaille the name derived from the English sea-pie.

Cipaille

There is also a traditional Quebec sweet pie called tarte au sucre. It is a concoction of sugar and maple syrup cream and butter - what's not to like.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 14 - 05:00 PM

cow pie

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 14 - 05:31 PM

Gee, I'm getting hungry. The trouble with almost all of these pies, is that my cardiologist doesn't like them...

I'm a fan of shepherd's pie. I'm surprised that some Americans here hadn't heard of it. I thought it was quite common here.



-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 14 - 07:18 PM

Shepherd's Pie, the warmed left-over, is good too. Dinner one night, then the left-over for lunch the following day. careful with the heat, don't dry it out.
We had one last week. Joe, I thought it was known everywhere in U. S. and Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:49 PM

No matter the contents (savory, meat, fruit) the foundation is found in a light, flakey crust.

Handed Down for generations:

Half as much shortening as flour (lard preferred)
Half as much water as shortening.
A pinch of salt and a pinch of BP with flour.

Blend flour and shortning until mixture is "pea size"
Add water...mix as little as possible...let rest in fridge for an hour before rolling.

Sincerel,
Gargoyle

Yes Joe. Beer Rocks, kraut runze, tavrern burgers, kraut burgers. (ground beef, onion, cabbage, in a soft dinner-roll ) built one legend of my family.

Try 250 to 1000 mg of VitC (dissolved ascorbic acid) added to your next batch of bread dough. Creats a finer texture.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 03 May 14 - 01:16 AM

Shoo-fly pie is called that because it's so good that keeping the flies from it at a picnic is a major battle.

My favorites are in the citrus-custard category: Lemon Meringue and Key Lime.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 03 May 14 - 01:20 AM

Gargoyle, you're saying 4:2:1 flour:lard:water? I've always heard 3:2:1.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 May 14 - 01:24 AM

Your "shepherd's pie" in US & Canada -- is that the same as ours, with a baked mashed potato topping rather than a pie-crust, or a different sort -- a pie-crust covered dish?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 01:55 AM

And the similar but not identical cottage pie.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 May 14 - 02:51 AM

Michaelr - my Nan taught me "half fat to flour" and the fat should be equal parts butter and lard. With *just enough* cold water to bind without being sticky. That's how I've always made shortcrust pastry (though I use vegetable fat instead of lard now.)

Flakey and puff usually need extra fat however (puff is 1:1)

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: JennieG
Date: 03 May 14 - 03:11 AM

Thanks, Q, I have printed out that recipe and will try it this coming winter! Would regular brown gravy be the sauce served, or would you get more creative?

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: sciencegeek
Date: 03 May 14 - 06:29 AM

dang.. my first attempt to post gone... like a good pie.

if you look for pies in the US, they are generally sweet pies & found in the bakery sections.

fillings: cream, custard, fruit and berries thickened with tapioca or cornstarch

crusts: pastry dough or cookie/graham cracker crumbs on bottom
top crust either full top or woven strips of pastry dough. crumb bottoms don't get tops except for whipped meringue.

we just polished off a blackberry pie... the Amish family down the hill from us just re-opened their Saturday bake shop for the season... there goes the diet.

I happen to enjoy a nice savory pie... but it's rare to find one other than Shepard's pie when eating out. Pot pies were easy to freeze and became a standard frozen food item, along with the so called TV dinners and fish sticks.

I think that the need to prepare the pastry dough is main reason for the demise of savory pies... it was easier to prepare a casserole for dinner... and you could reheat a frozen pie for dessert. In spite of all the cook shows and books/magazines... the number of Americans who can actually cook from scratch has been falling for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: gnu
Date: 03 May 14 - 02:10 PM

"the number of Americans who can actually cook from scratch has been falling for decades." Yeah. Hard to find the time when working two jobs at less than a living wage from BOTH.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 May 14 - 02:25 PM

When I die and get to heaven (assuming I've been a good girl) waiting for me will be a huge plate of buttered crumpets, and an enormous steak and kidney pie made with 8oz plain flour, 4oz of fat - equal amounts of butter and lard, and filled with more lambs' kidneys than steak (which have been cooked separately first, thickened with Bisto and added to a blind-baked base, upon which is placed the raw pastry top, cooked for 30 minutes on a medium oven) Now as this is heaven, St Peter will know just how to prepare these things for me. And as it's heaven, I will be slim and delightfully attractive no matter how many crumpets or pies I tuck into.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 May 14 - 03:09 PM

PUMPKIN PIE

1 28-0z pumpkin, ED Smith preferred
1 cup Demerara sugar (or "brown" if Demerara not on hand)
1 cup white sugar
2 tablespoons molasses
1/2 + teaspoon pure vanilla extract
1/4 teaspoon powdered cloves
1/2 teaspoon allspice
3 teaspoon cinnamon
1 teaspoon ginger
1/4 teaspoon cardamom
1 teaspoon salt 4 eggs, slightly beaten
2 cups 2% milk, scalded (remove scum)

Mix in order given.

Makes two pies. Bake in shells 15 minutes at 425F and 1 hour at 325F.

Decorate with pecan halves if desired.

We ladle on eggnog or hard sauce when serving.

We make at Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 May 14 - 03:38 PM

Any more? Or is it time to drive the Chevy to the levee?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 14 - 03:57 PM

No, the levee was dry, Mike...

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 May 14 - 04:16 PM

So "bye-bye"...

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: JennieG
Date: 03 May 14 - 05:39 PM

We don't get canned pumpkin here in Oz, unless one can find it at a shop selling foods imported from the US at great expense. However I have found that you can make your own: cut pumpkin into chunks, leaving the skin on, and roast it in the oven with no oil, butter or seasoning. When it's cooked, scrape the flesh into a food processor or blender and purée until smooth. It can be frozen - I freeze it in self-seal bags one cup at a time, because a lot of recipes seem to call for a cup of puréed pumpkin. Pumpkin cakes and muffins are a favourite in this household, and one of these days I may even push the boat out and make a pie.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:44 PM

We treat winter squash (we like Kabocha especially) by cutting and roasting, Jennie, but we have found that by cutting in half, putting the seeds out for the birds, and microwaving the halves or quarters, we get it cooked without the use of the oven.
(The seeds are used in recipes too).

There are several types of pumpkin. A sweeter, less fibrous type is best; ED Smith and several other canned pumpkins use this type. Look in your seed catalogues for these sweet, creamy types.
The typical "Halloween" type is more fibrous and has a stronger odor; they make poorly flavored pies with poor texture.

The good ones are generally smaller, and have names like "small sugar pumpkin" and "New England Pie pumpkin." "Autumn Gold" and "Baby Pam" are good, and there are others.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,.Gargoyle
Date: 03 May 14 - 08:19 PM

Dear Mr. Michael R

The ratio is by weight ... not volume.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Best wishes in your baking...goose berry might give you a thrill.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: JennieG
Date: 04 May 14 - 02:19 AM

Q, it depends on the weather! When it's as cold as today (and today is really, really cold) any excuse to turn on the oven is seized on eagerly. We don't have all the same types of pumpkin here as you do but Jap pumpkins (which are apparently also knows as Kabocha in Japan, and Kent pumpkins here) work well.

Now I shall turn on the oven right now and bake something.......anything!

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:55 AM

Same here, Jennie. The temperature has dropped alarmingly for May, and we don't want to buy any more oil, so it's jumpers and thick socks in the house. But when I turn on the oven the expression on our cats' faces is priceless. "About bloody time!" And if it's a casserole or a slow-cooked pie, the kitchen gets toasty warm, and the cats (they're Siamese) get longer and longer in their beds until they're so relaxed they look like long, thin pieces of string!

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: gnu
Date: 04 May 14 - 07:29 AM

A can of ED Smith's pumpkin pie mix costs more than a pie at the grocery. And they are good pies.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:11 PM

So bye-bye, Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levy
But the levy was dry.

Now go get high all you potheads.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:11 PM

Kabocha (a Japanese winter squash), as I mentioned, is sold in stores here and is a good one that we often use in a thick soup, but it is not a pumpkin.

Store pumpkin pies are too flat for my taste. A can of ED Smith pumpkin is cheaper here than a store pie, and the 28 oz. size makes two.

Another store pie that seldom is worth eating is lemon chiffon, which is heavenly if made with fresh lemons and covered with proper chiffon. The store versions all seem to be imitation lemon and fake chiffon.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:17 PM

Sorry, I really meant meringue, not chiffon. Old age got me, cane by my side.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 04 May 14 - 05:25 PM

At half time at the match, I have a balti pie (washed down with a drink of Bovril.)

You can't beat a belly full of balti. ( Vin Garbutt reckons Belly Full of Balti sang Mary's Boy Child.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 May 14 - 08:14 PM

Balti? Baltimore?

Bovril? Sounds un-American!

Subject: RE: BS: American Pie
From: Janie
Date: 04 May 14 - 11:37 PM

Although canned pumpkin is common, here in the USA, nothing better than a pumpkin pie made with fresh pie (sugar) pumpkins!

I've lived in the South for nearly 30 years now, and sweet potato pie is more traditional in these parts than pumpkin.
Taste is similar, but not identical. Texture is very different, whether one uses canned or fresh sweet potatoes or pumpkin. (would be very rare, though, for some one to use canned sweet potatoes to make a pie than for folks to use canned pumpkin. Pie pumpkins are only carried very briefly in major grocery chains for Thanksgiving. Rarely for Christmas. Co-ops and whole food groceries will carry pie pumpkins throughout the pumpkin season. Some things never get left behind in terms of what we are raised on. I will always much prefer pumpkin to sweet potato pie.