BS: Whither now England?

Subject: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 21 May 14 - 08:50 AM

Tomorrow is the European elections and it's entirely possible that the country has lurched so far to the right a xenophobic, mysoginistic and homophobic party could conceivably win these elections. We could, as the UK, be sidelined in Europe by an electorate voting for an ex-public school, ex-stockbroker, ex-tory establishment figure that has convinced the disillusioned people of England that he's some sort of maverick when in fact he's the opposite; the product of empire and a political anachronism. He's received blanket coverage from the media, who love him for his 'straight talking', bumbling, nice-but-dim, boozing, smaggo persona that designed to bridge the gap between the likes of him and the rest of us. He's a PR genius and not without some oratorical ability. He's also a hypocrite of the highest order, a shill for the establishment.

It's also looking like the Scots are finally going to shake of the Westminster Yoke and vote for independence later in the year. Already they are beginning to deny their role in empire, preferring to blame the English for their collusion in the oppression of empire but as anyone who has ever been to Edinburgh know (a city of empire if ever there was one), the Scots were willing and eager partners in empire, leading a renaissance in science, trade and art which established the modern Scottish state and provided the foundations of what will hopefully become a vibrant and progressive Scottish nation in years to come.

Meanwhile, the Welsh are established in devolution and the long, torturous road to lasting peace in the north of Ireland is being worked on and is indeed desired by all but a few on out islands; the long-term outcome remains uncertain but hopefully it will be achieved peacefully. The Cornish are finally given minority status and there is how some measure of devolution might follow with the long-wished for re-establishment of the Stannery.

So where does this leave England? The UKIP effect is already being felt as the ordinary people of the EU are beginning to see us a bunch of racist ignoramuses, small-minded and mean-spirited. As a people the English have totally lost their identity which has become muddled with the worst excesses of Britishness and has been hijacked by nationalists that are inevitably right-wing in outlook.

As a nation the English have lost the sense of themselves. Why is this? Possibly because the ordinary folk of England, as with the folk of all our islands have been under the Norman Yoke for a 1000 years and seem unwilling or unable to shake the parasitic aristocracy off their backs; even the Scots want to keep the ultimate benefit cheats in Buck Pal as their royal masters. These people are nothing to do with the ordinary folk of our islands, yet our politicians still serve them and their new oligarch masters with equal fervour. The church has some culpability here too, growing fat and rich and gobbling up land.

The dominance of the south-east of England has become so complete that when the union breaks up a large part of England will essentially be left to the mercy of the Westminster political/media/business mafia.

So here's what I think. We need to remember who we are. For starters, there are only one people on these islands, and we have divided ourselves culturally. This is fine and it's wonderful of course but we must remember that every person living here is a mongrel, and we are adding more diversity to our character every day. From the first people to cross after the retreat of the glaciers 14,000 years ago via the beaker people, celts, romans, norse, saxons, jutes, Jews, huguenots, Africans, Asians, the Windrush generation, Romanians, Polish and whomever comes next; we are a fantastic amalgamation of all these.

We are better than these right-wing oafs. This is the land of Stonehenge, Avebury, Arbor Low and Castlerigg, of Boudicca, the Battersea Shield and druids, the Lindisfarne gospels and Sutton Hoo. Under our hills Arthur still sleeps and in our woods the wild hunt sounds it horns and from lofty, vaulted ceilings the green man looks down on the ebb and flow of ordinary people still labouring under the heel of the privileged few, although now business has swelled the ranks of the wealthy and powerful. England is the land of Watt Tyler, Winstanley and the diggers, the chartists, luddites and suffragettes (in 1918 40% of men could not vote in the UK, and it was not until 1928 that women got the vote - it's been a long struggle for ordinary people). Shakespeare, Blake, Wilberforce, Darwin, Pankhurst, the Rochdale Pioneers and the Tolpuddle Martyrs all were pioneers that prove that we are a people equal to our brothers and sister nations on these islands in being able to claim to be progressive and humane, at least at the level of the ordinary folk. We need to understand why people hate us, and address it as best we can.

The English can do better than the boorish, tiny-minded tosspots of UKIP and the other right-wing loons. We deserve to take our place in a confederation of the isles as equal partners with all the home nations. We are all one people on these islands and those at the high table have been trying to divide us by religion, economics and the promotion of myopic self-interest for a millennia.

Time to change.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 14 - 09:39 AM

Effin' UKIP arsewipes...

If we stay in Europe, skint UK musicians don't have to pay VAT and import duty charges on musical equipment bargains
purchased from German mail order mega stores...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 21 May 14 - 01:15 PM

It has to said Stu, there are times when I am shaking my head.

Of course, most normal people in England are warm, inviting, non judgemental and kind. We are a very multicultural society and embrace diversity. T'was ever thus.

The snag is, it is the boorish ignorant peasants who shout loudest and are an embarrassment. The simple superstitious ones who think bigotry is respectable and the disgraceful ones who try to show our dubious past in a revisionist light.

But you know what? Fuck 'em. They are the sad minority, up their own arse and think people agree with them when in fact their popularity is due to the celebrity fascination of the self serving media. We even get them on here for crying out loud. Winding themselves up like they were Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse as The Self Righteous Brothers.

Mind you, there is hope at the end of the tunnel. One on here claimed to support UKIP once and has been wriggling out of his claim ever since.

No, I'm not quite as sceptical on these matters. A wake up Euro election will frighten people into not letting loony twats get in next year where it matters, in the real election. Despite the urge to give Cameron a bloody nose, I hope most Scottish people won't vote for another Darian venture for that matter.

The snag is, everybody has to be somewhere. We live amongst bigots, angels, sports teachers and idiots. Their vote is as valid as the next and as in all matters, the vast majority of people are too intelligent to fall for ideology. That's why we have a coalition. Nobody fell for dogma last time.

Politicians from soap boxes are like vicars from pulpits. They pontificate and get all judgemental but intelligent people smile and look the other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 21 May 14 - 01:41 PM

Looking at the disUK from the outside for over 30 years now I can't help feeling that a lot of people, not just UKRAP haven't progressed beyond 1918, let alone 1945 ( or should that perhaps be Waterloo?)
That being said, Front National in France and the various right wing movements in The Netherlands, Germany, Hungary etc. aren't any better. By all accounts the FN, for example, wants to do for modern art what the Nazis tried to do to it in the 1930s

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 14 - 02:54 PM

No-one is interested, but Musket often tries to discredit me by linking me to UKIP who I have NEVER supported.
That is what most of his post was about.

I have always been anti-EU but UKIP will just split the centre/right vote allowing in a pro-EU Labour government and we will never get our referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 May 14 - 03:56 PM

Saw Mr Osborne on BBC Parliament tonight, assuring everyone that should Scotland vote for independence, he would refuse to countenance a monetary union.

Why would the UK government take such action if not as political blackmail?    Surely it would be in everyone's interests to continue the monetary status quo, to facilitate the trade which is certain to still go on after independence is secured?

Mr Osborne does his country no credit by adopting these tactics.



"The snag is, everybody has to be somewhere. We live amongst bigots, angels, sports teachers and idiots. Their vote is as valid as the next and as in all matters, the vast majority of people are too intelligent to fall for ideology."

Three guesses as to who wrote that! The person who's whole life seems to be controlled by infantile "ideology".    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 14 - 06:48 PM

Friday should be fun...but who'll take over the Marr show on Sunday?

Nobody's defined what'll make Scottish nationality, but that simply means the existing rules will apply, it'll depend mostly on where you were born and partly where your parents were born, but at the very least it'll mean Gove is forced to move into Jockland.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Brian May
Date: 21 May 14 - 06:58 PM

Hmmm to vote UKIP or not?

People I've never met might be angry and become abusive . . .

I might be called a racist bigot (again)

What a shame . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 14 - 06:59 PM

You need to get rid of the Bank of England, same as America needs to get rid of its Federal Reserve. The Anglo-American banking system is the cause of most of the woes in western society. Usury will do that.

Also, you need the right to bear arms. Your "excellencies" will continue to crap on you as long as they have nothing to fear.

Oh, and stay out of the European Union. Bad stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 14 - 07:48 PM

Scotland leaves the UK, charges England rent on Scapa Flow and similar places. Elizabeth II has apoplexy, Charles III comes to the throne and invades Scotland. Brandishing his burnished blade he yells, "Remember Flodden and Culloden! Up and at 'em, lads!", turns in his saddle, and finds everyone at the pub -- Scots and English, polishing off pints together.

Meanwhile, the Welsh take back the Marches and require everyone to eat leeks at least once a week -- it's called "Leek-a-Week" -- and because of the speech which Henry V of England gave before Agincourt (or at least Shakespeare says he did) tell the House of Lords that because their blood was "gentled" they, too, want to take their rightful seats.

Knowing better, Cornwall, Ulster, Mann, and the rest simply keep their own counsel.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 14 - 07:51 PM

By the way, the referendum in yesterday's election here in Pocatello, Idaho to repeal the city's ordinance insuring equal opportunity in housing, etc. for the LGBTQ community went down in flames. And trust me, there ain't many places that lean more to the Right than Idaho.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 01:25 AM

Your Idaho experience is a case in point. In the final analysis, pointing at others and despising them is soooo c20. That we see it in developing nations is awful, although it gives our own dinosaurs somewhere to foam at the mouth about.

Interesting that I can think of three people on these threads who have offered support for UKIP but only the ones who are quick to disassociate think I meant them. One of whom thinks everything I say is aimed at him, such is his sense of self importance.

Still, he may well be voting today and that is a sobering thought. Me? I sent my postal vote in last week. As a vote for LibDem is a spoiled paper, the dismal choices of UKIP, Conservative, BNP and myriad little England causes meant Labour were the only choice. Snag is , I'm not sure they are ready to be encouraged just yet.

Notice how I say that Scotland risks shallow fools putting the idea of giving the present UK government a bloody nose above what's best for the country? Nice to see my point being made. Still , Alex Salmond has done more than any predecessor for respecting equality of others , introduced gay marriage etc etc, so nice to see who will vote for this liberal socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 14 - 01:42 AM

I am glad that I was wrong to assume that you linked me in any way to UKIP.
Why do you not just name people instead of using innuendo?
Is it because they can refute your claim and make you look silly?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 22 May 14 - 01:58 AM

An election is a formal decision-making process by which a population chooses an individual to hold public office. So do you support a representative democracy or not ?

You can always stamp your feet or take your ball and go home.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 02:56 AM

"Nobody's defined what'll make Scottish nationality"

That isn't true Guest. The Scottish gvt have given their proposed definition in chapter 7 of their white paper.

Some people will automatically qualify as Scottish citizens. For instance British Citizens who are habitually resident in Scotland including those with dual or multiple nationalities; and Scottish born British Citizens currently living outside of Scotland.

Others will be able to apply for citizenship. For instance through descent from a parent or grand-parent; those who have a demonstrable link to Scotland; or migrants on qualifyiing visas.

Of course the exact rules wouldn't be laid down unless it actually happened. It isn't for one party to dictate what would be - it would be for the Scottish Parliament to agree it as a whole. But it is simply wrong to suggest no-one has defined it or addressed the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:26 AM

No Keith, I just said you rushed to a conclusion.

If the dunce hat fits, off you go to the corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:42 AM

"This is the land of Stonehenge, Avebury, Arbor Low and Castlerigg, of Boudicca, the Battersea Shield and druids, the Lindisfarne gospels and Sutton Hoo."

Unfortunately, it will soon be the land of housing estates - as far as the eye can see. We're told that there's a shortage of houses (that's probably partly true) but I suspect that all the main political parties are pushing for build, build, build on every square inch because, at present, their 'masters' - the developers and speculators can't satisfy their insatiable, planet-consuming greed fast enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:43 AM

I have finally made up my mind. I used to think that it was necessary to vote Labour to keep the conservatives out, but more and more tehy have become patsies of the neoliberals and joined the rush to the right for fear of UKIP racism. What has finally nailed Labour's coffin for me is the failure wholly to condemn TTIP (US readers think TPP).

As you go out to vote today remember the most important issue today for the survival of our species. If Big Oil can deny global warming, our children drown. If it fracks, the land is poisoned. If Big Pharma can sue governments who try to save bees - remember if the bees die out so do we. Some say Frankenfoods are safe - but Thalidomide passed its safety tests and the UK government denied BSE, and Edwina Currie was run out of government for admitting the truth about salmonella. If big pharma and agribiz can take campaigns against government safety measures to secret tribunals made up of corporate lawyers, tribunals from which there is no right of appeal, we are not safe from being poisoned by our environment. TTIP must stop now.

The measure of Labour on this is that 3 days ago I emailed the official Kent Labour group to ask them to clarify whether they condemned TTIP in toto or not (it is a matter of record that they want an exemption for the NHS over compulsory tendering - aka privatisation) and they have not bothered to get back to me. I have finally made up my mind. Labour are no longer fit to be regarded as an opposition. They are just another bunch of neoliberal scum participating in the race to the bottom.

I'm off out to vote Green. Enough is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:49 AM

" Surely it would be in everyone's interests to continue the monetary status quo, to facilitate the trade which is certain to still go on after independence is secured?"

Scotland won't be truly independent without its own currency. By hanging on to the pound she will still be at the mercy to the Bank of England which will inevitably lead to cries of victimisation and foul play (perhaps justified) but even were it totally above board it will lead to resentment and continuing, festering hatred of the English.

It'll be tough, but Scotland needs to get shot of sterling to be truly independent.


"Also, you need the right to bear arms. Your "excellencies" will continue to crap on you as long as they have nothing to fear."

On dear. Did you not read my original post? You won't get anything done with guns, and we don't want them (in fact, we want less). Elizabeth Fry didn't need them, neither did Winstanley or Turing. The Rochdale Pioneers weren't tooled up. Time for you to read some English social history.

Anyhow, all the guns in the US don't stop the government spying on every move of their own people, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it. Guns are there to comfort cowed, powerless, deluded and frightened people (some of whom who inevitably, end up slaughtering innocents). And farmers.

Nope, despite the excesses of our ruling classes ordinary English folk can organise themselves and effect profound social change. The dominance of UKIP and the rightward shift of all mainstream parties is of concern because the answer to our problems isn't a blanket 33% income tax, total privatisation of the NHS and the further demonisation of minorities, who are no more than scapegoats for government incompetence.

We can do better. We can be progressive and I firmly believe we are, as a people of the home nations (including England) naturally compassionate, humane and care deeply about protecting the vulnerable in our society.

We need to shake off the shackles of this monarchist/oligarchical political climate and move towards a to more forward-thinking, long-term and socially compassionate economic system that sees people as living beings, not just numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:55 AM

I wrote to all of the local candidates (apart from the Greens)in today's elections asking why there was virtually no mention, in their election literature, of the most pressing problem of the 21st Century - the environment. I have not received a single reply (presumably they regard environmentalists as nutcases?).

Anyway, I suspect that the real reason why they didn't reply is because the ideologies of their parties are, essentially, 19th Century ones - now all deeply corrupted by neo-liberalism (the Tories, of course, didn't need much corrupting!) and they have no answers. If we have to wait until the 23rd Century for a truly 21st Century political ideology (one that puts the environment first) to emerge - it will be far too late!

I'm hoping that UKIP is just a 'flash-in-the-pan' - does anyone remember the SDP?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 14 - 04:31 AM

Correct on all points, Stu.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:04 AM

@Allan Conn
Which is pretty much what I said, I think.
But that's typical of Scotland, wanting to wag the English dog: we may well stick with our definition, but instead of being born in the UK, it's born in RUk. It may be legally difficult to withdraw nationality from someone already holding it, unless they opt for a different one, and forcing joint nationality on others born in Scotland may be equally objectionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:06 AM

"festering hatred of the English" For there to be a continued festering hatred there would need to be an existing one! There isn't. Not for the vast bulk of Scots anyway. There are exceptions of course....every country has its bigots.

As to the currency union obviously it would assist trade but yes, would still have a big downside. The current supposed housing bubble with talk of rising rates and the drawing back of Help To Buy is an example of what would remain post independence within a sterling zone. Outside small enclaves there is no housing bubble in Scotland. As is so with much of England too.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:19 AM

The housing bubble is something to do with The South East and London.

A friend in North Notts bought a new house in 2003 and paid £310,000 for it. He sold it last month, having spent some money converting an integral garage into a second living room and building a new garage etc, all investment.... For £190,000.

You know, even the ones who see conservative governments as protecting your personal investments wonder what the hell is going on. Let alone those with none.

We are getting the rental generation now, who will never be able to afford to buy a property, or will hover in negative equity for years should they try. How you square that with the government's drive to have old people sell their home to pay for residential care is beyond me. The government will be picking that particular tab up once that generation needs 24/7 care.

I didn't write to any candidates. All candidates feel all voters fit into one particular pigeon hole or other. Something that global communication, education and awareness has given us is a far more sophisticated younger generation or two. Social stereotypes and division don't interest them. Social class is a two way street of have versus have not. Branding at birth, politically and socially is anathema to them.

Interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:27 AM

What I replied to was the statement saying that no-one has defined what would be Scottish nationality! As I said it has been defined in the white paper as to who would automatically qualify as Scottish citizens. No-one would be forced to be Scottish citizens but everyone British residing in Scotland would qualify - and no-one in the Yes camp is talking about withdrawing anyone else's nationality. The UK currently accepts dual nationality as will Scotland. English born people in Scotland could be Scottish and UK citizens. No barriers from the proposition by the SNP anyway.

What is the alternative option? Tell people living in Scotland who weren't born here that they won't qualify for citizenship automatically and they will have to apply for it??? My wife was born and brought up in Norfolk but has lived here for over quarter of a century bringing up two Scottish kids. It would be absurd if she would not automatically qualify for citizenship. I can see that many people living in Scotland would object to having to apply - but can't see why anyone looking into it would object to the proposition in the white paper that anyone British living here would qualify automatically. It is completely inclusive.

If there was a Yes vote then for many people born in Scotland it will affect their nationality depending on what the rUK decides! If Scots on the whole want to remain UK citizens then the only way to ensure that is for them to vote No. It is democracy. We are quite capable of making our beds though.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:37 AM

Your absolutely right Musket. In Scotland when purchasing the lenders will accept transcripts of Home Reports without the purchaser paying for a valuation. If not done within the past 3 months the valuer needs to refresh it. I see lots of them from over a year or more ago which are being refreshed with no increase in value and in some cases still dropping in value. You wouldn't think it was past the wit of politicians to say right "Help To Buy" is ending in London and certain other post-codes etc. It already is different. maximum £600K in England but only £400K in Scotland.

Or indeed limit it based on someone's personal income. I mean if you are making £150K between the two of you - do you really need a gvt supported scheme? But a couple on £25K combined!!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 22 May 14 - 07:54 AM

"English born people in Scotland could be Scottish and UK citizens."

Hmmm. Surely that would mean they weren't English then . . . or would it be more like being awarded a badge of Scottishness? I'd check the buggers voting history if I were you.


"For there to be a continued festering hatred there would need to be an existing one!"

Then it's time for Scots to recognise that 'the English' are not to blame for the state of this union any more than they are, they were equal partners in empire and they don't have exclusivity on progressive politics or the promotion of a humane and equal society. Appalling all these generalisations, aren't they?

Kings, Queens, Dukes, Earls, Lairds, Barons, politicians, Clan Cheifs business etc etc are responsible for repressing the ordinary folk of these islands for centuries, and we can kick the ball back and fore across Hadrian's Wall until we're all dead and buried and a thing won't change.

We should all be equals. Once the Scots go, the chance of us as a people uniting to stop these parasitic poltroons will be gone, so we need another way. Scotland should lead this way, but recognise they are no more the chosen ones of these islands than anyone else; suggesting the Scots have sole access to the moral high ground hints at deeply flawed mindset: all the British people should know this by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 10:14 AM

Excepting though Stu no-one on here has suggested that the English are solely to blame for the state of the union, or that only Scots have sole access to the moral high ground etc etc. So don't quite know why you're throwing that at me.

As to the they can't be English thing - well people will define themselves as they wish. If a recent poll is to be believed then nearly 30% of English born people living in Scotland support Scottish independence and I'd imagine a good chunk of those would be happy to accept Scottish citizenship. Whether they'd still see themselves as English people with Scottish citizenship or not is surely up to the individual?

People will define as they want though not how others think they should define themselves. Also it depends how the question is asked. For instance in the latest census 62% of people in Scotland said they were only Scottish; 18% said they were Scottish and British; 2% said they were Scottish and some other mixture; and only 8% said they were British. In various polls the sense of Britishness was higher because an extra category was used resulting in less people saying they were only Scottish. People could say they were "more Scottish than British" but couldn't do so in the census. It seems many Scots are happy to say they are British too but many of those are not willing to give it equal status with their main Scottish identity. So multiple identities are quite complicated.

I know some English born people living in Scotland who call themselves Scottish - I know some who say British - and I know others who say English. It is up to them!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:02 PM

My sister has spent nearly her entire life in Scotland. She arrived at eighteen to attend Uni, qualified as a doctor and has devoted her whole working life to her patients in a hospital in Dundee. She has two daughters born in Scotland. Our father was a Scot. I wonder if she will have to apply for Citizenship? And what will happen to her pension? She's actually quite worried, as she loves it up there and wouldn't want to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:13 PM

Eliza. Mrs Musket is a fellow of The Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh and we attend lots of social bun fights. The main topic these days is on two levels.

Carrying on Academy of Royal Colleges guidelines and recognition of Scottish medical school right of entry to GMC registration and vice versa.

NHS pension where you have worked on both countries.

Mrs Musket was advised years ago to buy her years in Scotland to ensure the English scheme honoured her " house jobs " time. That was before idealistic nationalism became mainstream respectable.

Interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:19 PM

That's interesting Musket.But sis has never worked in England, so she wonders what will happen to her NHS pension. She was widowed at 36 so has no husband's income to help her out in her retirement, which is imminent. (She's miles younger than me!) I daren't ask who she votes for, as she's a bit fierce and would tell me to mind my own business!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 04:28 PM

If you work in one country, I assume there is no problem in essence as it is unfunded. In other words, the government promise a pension in return for giving them money whilst you work.

So long as the Scottish government can afford it, she should have no problem.

So long as they can afford it. ...

The public sector in Scotland is unsustainable.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 22 May 14 - 05:33 PM

Well Stu, there's nothing like a balanced post, and that, is nothing like, a balanced post.
Scotland, or any other country for that matter can use whatever currency they want.
They can use Monopoly money if they want. Why do you think it is possible for all theses local currencies to pop up, everywhere?
No matter how much we deny it, UKIP is saying what the electorate want to hear. Maybe not what the folk community wants to hear, but then the folk community is almost 100% left wing. The main parties are running scared, because other parties, dare to say what they do not.
I hold no brief for any party, but I can detect hypocrisy when I see it, and that's what the stench shows, around the corridors of Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 14 - 05:46 PM

Come on now, which one of you posted this in Piccadilly Tube Station? You were obviously just hanging around...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 14 - 05:58 PM

The mainstream political parties may need to get better but UKIP aren't the answer.

People may vote for them because they are different but unfortunately they see differences in groups of people too.

Frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:08 PM

Richard Bridge has decided to vote green , that is about as interesting as Steve Davis playing Snooker, go for it Richard Bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:58 PM

If you could play snooker as well as Steve Davis, bighead, I might listen to your views about who can play guitar which you TOLD me is not your primary instrument. A little respect for others might serve you well.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:11 AM

"I wonder if she will have to apply for Citizenship? And what will happen to her pension?"

She won't need to apply for citizenship Eliza. As I have aleady pointed out in the thread all British citizens habitually resident in Scotland will automatically qualify for Scottish citizenship! That has always been the stance of the SNP and it is stated in part 7 of the Scottish gvt's white paper on independence. Of course that is their proposal and they may not be the gvt in a future independent Scotland. However the idea that any of the other parties (Labour, Tories or Lib Dems) would seek to deny your sister citizenship is pretty far fetched.

The Scottish gvt has also published papers saying they will protect existing pension rights! Of course Musket is correct. As long as pensions can be afforded - but that applies to the UK itself as much as Scotland - however the Scottish gvt seems to be ringfencing pensions. Some argue that Scotland could possibly even afford to have improve pensions as just now according to some stats Scottish women get £11K less in their lifetime than women elsewhere in the UK and men £10K less. This though is due to lower life expectancy rates which I take it an independent Scottish gvt would seek to improve rather than use as a means to try and afford better pensions.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:30 AM

Another point Eliza. You say she has never worked in England so wonder what will happen to her NHS pension? In truth though it is an NHS Scotland Pension Scheme that she will be in. The NHS is not one single UK wide institution and never has been. The Scottish and the Northern Irish National Health Services run their own pension schemes seperate from the scheme run by the NHS in England and Wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:52 AM

That's reassuring, thank you Allen. She really loves Scotland and would never consider coming south now.
Won't it be interesting to see how everyone voted yesterday? I've spoken to several friends in the village and they say they intended to vote UKIP but changed their minds at the last minute and voted Green!!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:12 AM

UKIP make large gains all over England, despite a huge propaganda campaign by the media, to smear the party as racist and homophobic.

An example. Mr Jon Snow anchor man of Channel 4 news, when interviewing Mr Farage on his stance on Europe, made the following snide smear.   "Mr Farage, I hesitate to use the word "black" in front of you, but wouldn't you accept that you are a bit of a black sheep in the European Parliament?"

I don't agree with all of UKIPS policies, but these results provide a well deserved slap on the face to the people who think their ideology should apply to and be adopted by, everyone in the UK..... who accept no alternative views and discount whole swathes of what used to be known as the silent majority.

Congratulations to a brave man who spoke his mind against the combined power of the media, and found his ideas reflected in a large part of UK society.    Well done England, and I hope the Scottish people will continue the revolution against cant and idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:16 AM

Latest paper released by the Westminster government:

SCOTS can expect to remain ­British citizens if they vote for independence, the UK Government has conceded.


In its latest analysis of the consequences of independence, focusing on borders and citizenship, it says it is likely that Scots would be able to hold dual Scottish and British nationality.

The next generation of Scots would also be British, the paper suggests, as children inherit citizenship under present UK rules.

Their children would not be British, as British citizens outside the UK cannot pass on their citizenship more than one generation.

As British citizens, Scots would keep their existing passports and continue to qualify for UK consular help abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:17 AM

"So don't quite know why you're throwing that at me."

Please don't take anything personally, I'm not throwing anything at individuals, just trying to stimulate discussion. Also, I'm in the Yes camp.

There is, deny it or not, much pejorative talk about 'the english' in this debate (not here perhaps, but go check out the comments sections on many of the major newspapers sites). This idea that there is some separation of us as a people beyond our regional cultures is simply wrong. There is a distancing (necessary to a degree, I understand) that has become something more; look south to see how that ends up.

"No matter how much we deny it, UKIP is saying what the electorate want to hear."

Given that the media have given Farage a campaigning platform on every bulletin this is hardly surprising. You could put a used bog roll up for election and it'd poll high with that amount of airtime. It's easy to scapegoat certain parts of the population in times of austerity. The fact UKIP hate anyone not british, women and homosexuals makes their job easier as we seem to be undergoing some sort of social regression as a society.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:35 AM

Ask people if they want mass immigration and they will say no.

Ask people if they want doctors and nurses when they need them and they will say yes.

UKIP aren't a success story for far right thugs, they are a failure story for complacent incompetent present politicians.

If people actually thought, and serious commentators are providing the information to form a view, that UKIP in Brussels is a positive contribution to our influence and dealings with partners, or that their ideas as opposed to thought out policies would increase or even sustain growth, or even worse, that a gang of stockbrokers, bankrupted disgraced ex Tory politicians and racist thugs give a tuppenny toss about the poor and vulnerable in society....

It is interesting that the majority of people voting for them would suffer most under them.

To date, they have and will not have a single council. BNP put up many of the same candidates and got some council seats a few years ago. Most didn't run the course as you can't represent your ward from a prison cell. Their backgrounds get analysed by the media and the love in with Farage won't last forever.

The media only set you up in order to kick you back down.

If the voters want the smell of smoke again in public places, people being told their marriages are illegal, import tariffs on what they buy, export tariffs on what they sell and kicking out of NATO, carry on following the racist buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:44 AM

Come on Stu you can look on the internet in discussion groups and on youtube etc on any subject and there are trolls and idiots throwing insults at each other. I'm talking about reality amongst the population as a whole. Amongst Scots in general there is not the festering hatred that you suggest - and the debate is not based on that.

The second comment that you're replying to was not my comment just in case anyone thinks it was. I have no truck with UKIP and the Daily Mail in Scotland has even been trying to liken Salmond to Farage over the past week or so. Which of course is ludicrous. There is no comparison between the inclusive welcoming (ie to incomers) nationalism of the SNP and the xenophobic rants of some UKIP candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:51 AM

I do wonder if there is a bigger picture here. The right are making gains across Europe, and the rise of austerity has coincided with the increasing inequality within our societies. I'm not sure I know a soul who believes that our politicians are anything but people in it for themselves, to accommodate big business and maintain the status quo. Thing is, Farage is a variation of the status quo, a sort of sub-species of right-winger and not a challenge to it at all; they want a blanket 33% tax rate, a policy that would plunge a fair number of their supporters into the poverty they fear.

We need to remember our own radical social history, give prominence to those who worked for the common good of all the people on our islands and beyond, and the English need to invoke the spirit of these people and embrace our natural desire to build a fair society. We are not the politicians, oligarchs and aristocracy of that rule without accountability and without compassion.

We are better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 May 14 - 05:03 AM

It's the same old, old, old story, isn't it? If you want power, wait for one of those periods of economic instability and austerity, that capitalism produces at regular intervals, and then blame foreigners, outsiders and the poor and all of the ignorant, selfish, xenophobic nerds and gits will fall over themselves to vote for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 06:41 AM

As we see, put the idea into some peoples' heads that sections of society aren't equal and they will believe any bullshit you can throw at them that there are reasons to "deal" with them.

You can even trawl threads here to see it. Luckily, the ones here are little people of no consequence, but a vote is still a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 14 - 07:51 AM

What kind of a person sees others as "little people of no consequence?"

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 08:06 AM

Any reason for reacting Keith?

This is a serious thread. Let's not pollute it with the tripe that informs your fixation with me. I'd be flattered if you happened to be a person of consequence.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 23 May 14 - 08:13 AM

How about a federation? Separate governmanet and independence (whatever that means - all economies are inter-dependent nowadays)for Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland,with their own parliaments etc - but all represented at a Federal British Islands Forum, to replace the UK Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: redhorse
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:28 PM

It's my understanding that British pensioners resident in another country don't get their state pension increased with inflation. Previously it was just those resident in non-EU countries that got heir pensions frozen, but I'm sure I read that the current government extended it to all countries.I think the argument (spin?) was that those not living in uk are not affected by uk inflation. Can anyone confirm this?

So this would presumably affect the not insignificant number of British pensioners who have retired to Scotland, if the split happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:29 AM

According to the press, British politics has now got a fourth party. Was this a knee jerk protest vote or did the British public frock to a party prepared to address issues where other parties fear to tread ?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:43 AM

They certainly didn't "frock" to UKIP. That particular set of people don't like cross dressing poofters ! (My iPad makes those autocorrect mistakes too. I sympathise.)

Everybody at a very base personal level has fear and mistrust of others and likes to blame others for perceived predicaments. The likes of Farage play on this, as did the rise of fascism 80 or 90 years ago across Europe.

The UK resisted it then, including denouncing Mosely, so it is rather sad that with education, social mobility and opportunity, society has still failed a hell of a lot of people. Farage isn't the answer but the dismal intelligence of those who voted for him tells us a lot about the failures of present politicians and the lack of alternatives.

If most of their voters are one off protest, they are playing a dangerous game.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:14 AM

We were accosted by two very rude ladies in Norwich last weekend. They were anti-UKIP and positively shouted at us not to vote for Farage's Party as it was terribly racist. They stuffed their leaflets into our reluctant hands, and one lady put her face right up to my husband's and bellowed, "Don't vote UKIP! They'll make things difficult for people like you!" (Meaning I suppose that as he's black, he'd better watch out.) He drew himself up and replied firmly, "I will vote for who I like, thank you!" I was quite proud of him. Not a very pleasant encounter.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:35 AM

"Everybody at a very base personal level has fear and mistrust of others and likes to blame others for perceived predicaments"

You've got it wrong there old boy. Mr Farage does not blame the immigrants, I have heard him saying that he cant blame anyone from leaving a bankrupt, basket case of an economy, to come to a country where they can earn and send money back to their families.
That is simply self interest and self preservation.

Mr Farage blames a series of UK governments, for following a media, and short sighted economic agenda, which caused all the social and cultural predicaments.

Remember how UKIP was demonised by "liberals"? Their agenda has been scrutinised and found to be flawed......Surprised?

You want a capitalist economy, you must be prepared to exploit everything and everybody......but you must be sure you have the infrastructure to carry it off.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:51 AM

"So this would presumably affect the not insignificant number of British pensioners who have retired to Scotland, if the split happens."

Don't know how many times things have to be repeated in the same thread. Re the Scottish gvt's White Paper any British citizen habitually resident in Scotland would automatically qualify as a Scottish citizen and re said white paper plus their paper on pensions existing pension rights will be protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 May 14 - 04:22 AM

"Mr Farage does not blame the immigrants ..."

Questionable! Nevertheless, I strongly suspect that most of his supporters "blame the immigrants".

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 05:26 AM

He certainly doesn't blame German immigrants even if he does Romanian ones. You see xenophobia is fear of all foreigners. Racism is distinguishing which to hate.

Eliza's unfortunate experiences show that any ideology can fall into the hands of those who would serve their country best by changing their odious approach.

Of course, the newspapers who built the monster up now have the opportunity to knock him back down again. Now he has a few councillors, their lack of coherent direction and policies can be scrutinised by those who put their faith in them.

I shudder to think what would crawl from under a stone if any of their nonsensical claims had substance. Who'd have thought a stockbroker would advocate losing the London Stock Exchange? If he gains enough MEPs, the Frankfurt stock exchange will have to put in planning permission for their larger premises...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 14 - 09:06 AM

Shim, what motivates the electorate is hardly the fault of Mr Farage or his party, he has set out his argument against membership of the EU very well and also his opposition to unregulated immigration from EU countries.....This is not racism, and to infer that it is , is lazy and crass.

I remember the electorate voting en masse for a "liberal" Labour leader, who shamed us all by assisting the US in a war which cost many lives and left Iraq in a worse state than before.
We were never told of Mr Blair's intentions, the details of his deal with Bush have never been published. Don't talk to me about political manipulation!

We may not agree with Mr Farage, but he has been straight with the electorate and they seem to be responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 14 - 10:24 AM

"This is not racism"

If it's not racism, it's certainly xenophobia. Unless you've been on the moon for the past week then you'd have seen our heard his interview during which the interviewer drew Farage's utterly unreasonable attitude to (amongst other things) people not speaking in English in trains and labelling all Romanians as antisocial.


"We may not agree with Mr Farage, but he has been straight with the electorate and they seem to be responding."

Where does this myth that Farage is "straight with the electorate" come from? Are people watching the same news reports? The man is the worst kind of hypocrite, and it's those voting for him he's laughing at as he takes their tax money for not representing our best interests in the European parliament. He's old establishment and not of the ilk of most of the people voting for him.

Furthermore, given the blanket coverage the BBC has given Farage (notice he's pretty much the ONLY person from the party to ever appear in the media, apart from one airing of the execrable Neil Hamilton on Question Time). The turd has been truly polished, and with our licence fee.


"There is no comparison between the inclusive welcoming (i.e. to incomers) nationalism of the SNP and the xenophobic rants of some UKIP candidates."

Yes, but no-one in these islands has the monopoly of being welcoming to incomers. England has always welcomed people to her shores and part of the strength of English society is its multicultural and diverse nature. It's reflected in our art, sport, music, literature and pretty much everything else. Heck, even our most popular dish is an Asian fusion concoction.

The problem is the Tories have imposed austerity in a way that means they can accomplish their idealogical aims of destroying the NHS and whipping up fear about johnny foreigner coming over here nicking our jobs.

Like I keep saying, we can do better than this.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 10:48 AM

We certainly can Shimrod. But as you see, gullible impressionable fools have a vote, and that is still the best political system there is.

I would have thought that education and general intelligence would mean most people could see through the media coconut shy that makes Farage seem respectable.

Not one single reviewer, not a single journalist nor commentator has given UKIP policies and ideas credence. Their only credibility is from those taken in by irresponsible claims of a better tomorrow by blaming others for our situation.

No wonder his power base is Essex. Sophistication city....

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:04 PM

If you live in the EU, Switzerland and selected other countries your UK pension increases by the same amount as it does the UK. We get the GBP10 Xmas bonus as well.

AS for intelligence and education- if the Daily Wail, Sun, Mirror et al tell them white is black then Jack and Jill Average will believe it, more so if they can blame someone else for telling them otherwise. Independant thought, analysis and deduction are too much like hard work for them. Remember the NotW anti-paedophilia campaigh which resulted in a flash mob attacking a paediatrician......

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:11 PM

Not one single reviewer, not a single journalist nor commentator has given UKIP policies and ideas credence

Crap. They're entirely a media creation, and the publishers and broadcasters responsible have blood on their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 14 - 05:15 PM

Shouldn't it be "Wither now, England" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan conn
Date: 24 May 14 - 07:58 PM

Again stu i never said Scots had a monopoly on being welcoming. I compared the policies of the snp against ukip. I drew no comparison between Scotland and England and have no desire to.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 May 14 - 04:03 AM

They do have blood on their hands Jack. But they also haven't given his ideas and wishes any credence.

The media are clever, don't ever forget that. They love his beer and fags approach but which one followed up Nick Robinson's hard questioning ? They concentrated on the hard time he got, not the lack of answers.

As I said, not a single tabloid journalist has examined what UKIP represent. There again, in the last general election , Farage famously claimed he hadn't read his own manifesto.

The media built up an image. They haven't given policies any scrutiny because that would shatter said image. I have genuinely looked for what they would do if they ran a council. I am still none the wiser.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 14 - 05:45 AM

To say the media "assisted" Mr Farage and his party is ridiculous.
Every news and media outlet including the Mail, did their worst to smear Mr Farage and to stop discussion of his policies.

The crux of the problem is of course our membership of the EU and Mr Farage is Quite correct in stating that most of our social and economic problems spring from that.

The Open Door immigration policy will never be re-negotiated, Mrs Merkel has made that perfectly clear, we don't have the funds available to provide the infrastructure required to care for a huge number of economic migrants.
The whole mad scheme was dreamt up as a means of "making the UK more competitive in the Global market place"

So much for the brilliance of political thought.
We should never have joined and must get out as quickly as we can.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Guest,Over the bar
Date: 25 May 14 - 06:44 AM

Strong showing by the Sinn Fein in north and south,KKK, GET ON YOUR BIKE.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 25 May 14 - 07:22 AM

We are a trading nation. A stockbroker by the name of Nigel Farage even said so.

50% of our trade is with our European partners. The common market is a bit of a success story. Farage would risk that in order to isolate us for no given reason. I was in Norway recently and one problem they have is the need to abide by many EU directives whilst not being able to influence or veto them in order to achieve free trade.

What pays for UKIP voters benefits

The trick isn't to fetter Europe, but to make it fit for purpose. The conservatives run scared of nationalistic buffoons and try to emulate them whilst Labour roll with the punches in Brussels. I'm not sure our political parties help themselves here as both parties accidentally or otherwise allow idiots to blame the bits that prop up our economy for the bits that don't work.

At least Scotland realises the importance of remaining in Europe, and both sides of the debate agree on that much at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 14 - 08:28 AM

"The trick isn't to fetter Europe, but to make it fit for purpose."

Don't you realise that we are no longer in a position to dictate to the EU? Germany and France have made it quite clear that there will be no re-negotiation.

We have become a hindrance, while they search for markets and influence in Eastern Europe. we are simply a parking ground for economic migrants, we are effectively being used by the EU, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Scotland, after independence will be forced to address the issue of Europe and remove herself. Unlike the UK, we are in a relatively strong position regarding trade, "Scottish" being a very strong brand in various fields.

To be a truly independent nation we must not surrender sovereignty to the Brussles.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 25 May 14 - 11:27 AM

"Given that the media have given Farage a campaigning platform on every bulletin this is hardly surprising. You could put a used bog roll up for election and it'd poll high with that amount of airtime."

The coverage he gets, is because he is news, unlike the other boring old farts, who are scared to say anything, that is not, right on message!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 14 - 11:48 AM

Well, you'll find out tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 May 14 - 03:52 AM

akenaton, I agree with everything you say. We must get out of Europe and not after a possible referendum in 2017, but immediately! Just look at the results coming in. Farage has risen to first position in the list. Why will the government not listen and act? This is a democracy after all, and if the majority want out then get us out!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:02 AM

It looks as if the French want out as well, judging by this morning's News.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:46 AM

Do you have a link, Eliza?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:48 AM

The media has spoken.

I always look for positives and hopefully this Europe wide dissatisfaction with how The EU has been managed will result in two things.

1. A complete overview of the structures, including the will of the people when it comes to widening the zone.

2. The people actually taking an interest. The opportunities to oppose expansion were ignored by constituents, media and Westminster politicians. The EU has been seen as something to do with measuring bananas.

With 50% of our actual trade and the huge numbers of multinational companies providing jobs here due to our membership, the only danger is that this could be compromised.

I heard Farage say that it is only the common market that Europe needs. I can't disagree but would point out that many of the policies he opposes are there to create a level playing field for said common market.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 05:06 AM

"The media has spoken"

No it hasn't. The media is thoroughly pissed off, listen to any of today's interviews. The bastards are crying their eyes out, their ideology, which you follow slavishly, has been proved a mirage and their smear tactics ineffective.....take the hint Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 05:19 AM

What I will say, as a supporter of Scottish Independence, is that Alex will have to start giving some serious thought to our position regarding the EU.

I have said for years that Scotland is a socially conservative country, and many here are appalled by the acceptance of EU laws and regulations on social and economic issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:51 AM

"To be a truly independent nation we must not surrender sovereignty to the Brussles."

Or the Bank of England.


"I have said for years that Scotland is a socially conservative country"

Blimey. England is a naturally left-leaning country that had had enough of Labour's fiscal ineptitude at the last general election and let the tories in, who have gone on to decimate our social structures, alienate a whole start of society with lies and have attempted to redefine us as a nation of corporate slaves. Even the Scots, the great democratic hope for these islands elected a UKIP candidate.

The results of the local and EU elections are interesting, as it seems the slaves have had enough. In the local elections, the right was divided and labour romped home, and the fact in both elections labour did well in London only goes to reinforce the claim we are being ruled by the same elite that has oppressed us for centuries. It's going to be hard to blame the ordinary working people of the capital for the woes of any of the regions when they have so comprehensively rejected the right-wing parties. Good on 'em, they are as much under the Westminster cosh as the rest of us (and they have Boris to endure too).

It's also no coincidence that in the most multicultural area of the country, the working folk have rejected the xenophobia of the middle-aged white men and women of UKIP. Out in the shires the overwhelmingly white populace has been cowed by the likes of Farage and his public-funded media campaign (thanks British media!), and have swallowed his nasty establishment bile wholeheartedly; thank the maker there are enough of us with a conscience to provide an adequate counter to these myopic, intolerant 'old school' brits.

If anyone looking on wants to know how Britain ended up with an empire, the likes of Farage built it on the backs of the working people for the aristocracy. These are the tosspots you should direct your anger at. They hate everybody BUT the establishment, which they worship.

So we wake this morning with less relevance in Europe than ever before. In some ways it's deserved, as a people we are becoming split and reverting to nationalism and all the baggage that brings with it. It's a shame we don't feel as strong together as we actually are.

But then, perhaps it has ever been thus. They hate the idea of communities coming together, becoming active and steering their own course for the common good. I have more hope for England after these results. However the media spin the xenophobe's victory, there are enough of us left who care about our society to ensure we don't let these misogynistic, homophobic, anti-intellectual, anti-art, pro-corporate, mean-minded people take this country over without a fight.

The spirit of the Diggers and the Tolpudlle Martyrs isn't driven from the land yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:18 AM

You know, it isn't fair to say UKIP have no policies other than immigration.

I'm not sure those who voted for them want;

A 33% flat tax rate on everything you earn.

Fox hunting legalised.

Reducing the sentencing criteria for cruelty to animals.

Opting out of Human Rights.

Bars and restaurants allowing smoking.

Married gay couples being told their marriage is now illegal.

I haven't managed to find much about losing the stock market, losing 50% of export markets, losing multinational companies who provide jobs here as a gateway to Euro markets, employee rights, NHS...

Of course, regarding immigration, leaving Europe may prevent hitherto legitimate immigration from EU countries but illegal immigrants? Err.. It just means they land on our shores rather than Italy and Spain. Euro cooperation on borders wouldn't apply. The French holding camp at their end of the tunnel? Gone.

Be careful what you wish for. Akenaton is licking his chops over this, and if he's happy, just remember that earlier today he called gay families a mad social experiment on an Adjacent thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:40 AM

UKIP's policy in Scotland is to end devolution and any aspiration for independence. The three unionist parties untitled to ensure the Liberal seat would NOT go to SNP. Remember, the government of an Independent Scotland will not necessarily be the SNP so a referendum on the EU could be on the cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 01:55 PM

How did UKIP do in Scotland Jim? What does this tell you about September's referendum?

I'll tell you what, it isn't half interesting for the chattering classes but what happens when people forget to return to less extreme options now they have given real politicians a bloody nose? It isn't just ignorance and stupidity that has flocked to UKIP.

Real people with real concerns are either wanting proper politicians to sit up and listen to their fears or they actually agree with far right thugs.

I don't know how many are in each camp. Does anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:26 PM

The protest part of the vote had nothing to do with "left" "right" politics; and everything to do with "liberal" cant, and if left unchecked, its inevitable destruction of society.


As I have said, we were headed for an Orwellian world, where freedom of speech and thought on social issues was proscribed.
The media had become too powerful, any pretence of democracy abandoned, any dissent demonised. The gang we see on these pages trying to silence discussion by smear and insult are a wonderful example of "liberalism" in action, thankfully admin is brave and strong enough to ensure we keep these pages free. People in the real world had thought it was impossible to speak against the power of the media, till Mr Farage showed them it could be done.

But this is about issues of sovereignty and society.......if we dare to attack the system, we will be NOT be tolerated.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:31 PM

Musket, as I said the three unionist parties voted tactically to ensure the UKIP member won. When his address was read out at the declaration, the public laughed as he gave his address as London! The whole UKIP setup in Scotland was laughable with infighting and slagging matches so I am waiting to see their candidate unravelling. UKIP's share of the Scottish vote was just over 10% and only narrowly beat the Green Party who had no great media support. UKIP was never off the TV in Scotland unlike the SNP and Greens. Some people have spoken in favour of UKIP as is their democratic right with a little help from their Labour, Tory and Liberal friends .. but it will be regretted. Their message is pure poison but Scotland no doubt has its share of poisonous, xenophobic louts. But at least, Musket, UKIP were only fourth in Scotland while the SNP won the Scottish election by topping the polls ... not bad for a government in its 7th year.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:41 PM

So in other words, UKIP won.

Regarding the post above yours, I might point out that in his Orwellian world, he would fit in nicely. After all, he calls gay families a mad social experiment and puts the word marriage in parentheses when the couple are the same gender.

If he was educated and intelligent he'd be dangerous. In the meantime, he sees shouting down bigotry and intolerance as er.. Intolerant?

Back in your hole worm. You are even embarrassing Scottish nationalists, and that takes some doing, listening to SNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 03:37 PM

Musket, I think he embarrasses most decent people although I suggest "embarrassing" is a rather mild description of the effect he has one me, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:35 PM

Remains to be seen, I presume , how ukip fare in a general election, if all the policies musket describes are presented then. The opinion of the common market is another matter, that has been expressed by ukips success now.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:53 PM

Interesting Jim, never thought an admirer of McDairmid would be have any truck with faux liberalism or political correctness.
Always a rebel in my eyes, but you are the expert.

Perhaps if you actually lived in the Scotland, you might have a better idea of the nature of its people.
Perhaps you are one of the "metropolitan elite"?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:01 PM

Jim I believe that the hilarity over his address had nothing to do with where he lived but to do with the controversy over him supposedly registering the wrong address with the electoral commission which some are saying if true could result in a hefty fine.

he car crashed on Radio Scotland today. Saying that there were hundreds of crazy EU rules, many new ones being put in place every month, which he would work to repeal. However when pressed by the interviewer he was unable to give even one specific example. Using the now stock UKIP excuse "oh I'm tired". He then refused to rule out the idea that UKIP may work with the French National Front.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:32 PM

There's nothing inconsistent between left views on economic matters and socially "conservative' views on others. Which I would take is the point akenaten is making. I express no views as to whether he is right about Scotland in that respect. But my impression is that it's a pretty common combination in many places and among many people.

Good to see the Green Party now ahead of the LibDems, in spite of virtually no media attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:41 PM

I note that this thread is more "Whither Scotland" now.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 14 - 09:27 PM

"whither" is only a political/social term.

No matter what Scotland does... or even Wales, for that matter.... they will still be right there next door, and people will still shop, visit, sing, ... and complain about each other as before. All that independence can do is add some nationalistic 'pride' and a layer of complex bureaucracy to the current situation.
I guess I see why the idea is being pursued, but all I see for the US is needing to appoint one more ambassador & staff an embassy.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 02:46 AM

"All that independence can do is add some nationalistic 'pride' and a layer of complex bureaucracy to the current situation."

Couldn't it be argued that independence would actually get rid of a layer of bureaucracy for Scotland?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 02:52 AM

"I note that this thread is more "Whither Scotland" now."

Though Scotland was at the heart of it from the very first post with the claim that Scots deny their part in empire and prefer to blame the English!! It seems some folk find it hard to talk about England without having a wee go at Scots in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 03:46 AM

That wasn't a 'go' at the Scots - this sense of victimhood is tiring as it's trotted out endlessly. If you bottle it on the currency, we can expect it in perpetuity. The distancing from empire by many nationalist Scots, who wish to appear more like the Irish who suffered under the hands of the British Empire is plain wrong: it's nationalism re-writing history. There is of course a fair amount for Scots to despise the English for, but once again they were willing beneficiaries of empire and it's a mistake to duck the responsibility for it. The English know this at least (and are reminded often enough).

Part of the problem for the English are the feelings of confusion and guilt that are felt by so many people regarding our role in Empire. That is one of the reasons English nationalism remains in the hands of right-wing boors whom still think we should be 'great' again. Of course, the real strength of the Empire were the ordinary folk whose backs were broken building and maintaining it, not the political, business and aristocratic classes making the decisions and running the show.

My original premise was what is needed is a bit of brutal honesty from us all, for the sake or the ordinary working folk of our islands. We need to remember people like us started unions and co-operatives, organised ourselves to fight the injustices the ruling classes imposed upon us and often died or were deported for our efforts.

The blood of these islands knows no borders. We are all one people and our cultures are all different sides of the same whole, supplemented by the arrival of new people bringing their own unique cultures to add to the mix; it is this strength and love of diversity frightens the establishment and it's why they're happy to have Farage out there, he's one of them through and through but manages to pull of this 'blokey' act that appeals especially to white males of a certain age.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:03 AM

Allan... I respect your approach to this, even if my own feelings don't coincide with yours on the Westlothian question, as it used to be called, and still may revert to..

However, removing a level of bureaucracy????

Since when did any government remove bureaucracy? For starters, they develop bureaucratic systems for the removal process and from that point on, Parkinson's Law takes over.

If you think of the UK structures that an independent Scotland would wish to set up for themselves, I genuinely reckon it would take a penny in the pound tax rise to cover them. (Shekel in the Groat or whatever..)

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:40 AM

Akenaton, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "Interesting Jim, never thought an admirer of McDairmid would be have any truck with faux liberalism or political correctness."
Living in a stable does not make me a horse and I opposed apartheid in South Africa while living in Scotland. I don't think one can judge the mood of Scottish people by living in one part of it. I watch the Scottish news and read all the Scottish rags every day and correspond regularly with political groups so I think I have a fair knowledge.
My politics in a nutshell: Scottish Independence first.

Back to the thread, Stu makes many good points but when the English voter looks for an alternative to Tory, Labour or Liberal they see UKIP and vote accordingly for some of the reasons Stu points out. Where is the vision for a new, fresh England? Getting out of the EU and blaming immigrants for the lack of housing or job opportunities? And by the way Musket, the West Lothian question, Trident and the House of Lords all disappear with Independence. Maybe if there was an English party which advocated and believed in these policies, UKIP might disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:52 AM

Yes Jim, and read my first line. I wasn't assuming the yes vote will prevail. The EU elections (and council elections south of the border) are sinking in. People are waking up to the reality of consequences of going somewhere they haven't been before, and the implications of this.

Salmond's lack of answers to pertinent questions and assurances he is in no position to give may work for The Morningside Lunching Ladies Association, may even work for old men who wear tweeds and the occasional tartan, but real people worried about real job security?

Waking up to change isn't the fun it is cracked up to be, as many people seem to be saying. "I gave a protest vote, didn't think the bugger would be elected" seems to be the pub talk where I live. Howsabout your neck of the woods?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:10 AM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Brian May
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:24 AM

Ho, ho, ho

Having just revisited, you (collectively) aren't half predictable!

The UKIP vote is simply that 'we racist bigot band of brothers here on St Crispin's day', number in the millions. Folks are fed up with politicians following their own agenda and blatantly, arrogantly, ignoring the wishes of a big chunk of the electorate.

We (all) live in interesting times.

There are one or two paradigms being challenged in European politics just at the moment . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:34 AM

Sanity being one...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:57 AM

"Folks are fed up with politicians following their own agenda and blatantly, arrogantly, ignoring the wishes of a big chunk of the electorate."

Which oddly enough, is what UKIP are doing. They're hardly trend buckers or some radical organisation from outside of the political establishment. Farage has run for Westminster 5 times and is an ex-stockbroker. His gift lies in oratory, not honesty. He's got about as much in common with ordinary folk as we have with him - nowt.

Of course, the reaction of the other parties is as predictable as ever; if this was a protest vote then the message hasn't got through. But then, it's led by one of their own so perhaps it's not so much of a genuine threat after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 07:55 AM

"It's also looking like the Scots are finally going to shake of the Westminster Yoke and vote for independence later in the year. Already they are beginning to deny their role in empire, preferring to blame the English for their collusion in the oppression of empire"

Sorry Stu but you don't say some Scots think this or that way. You statement is a clear generalisation that they "ie the Scots" are now denying their role in empire and blaming the English. I'd say that is a statement which as well as being sweeping isn't particularly correct and neither was it necessary. If you didn't mean it to read that way then fair dos.

I know there are exceptions and daft statements can be found on youtube etc by individuals but most Scots know very well the Scottish involvement in empire etc, in fact some revel in it, but that is history. As for me playing the victim then sorry not so. If folk make what appear to be sweeping statements about one's nation then of course one has the right to reply! And to tell you the truth I'd do the same if the statement had been aimed at the English.

The independence debate is about the here and now and serious commentators and the leading figures etc don't particularly argue about historical issues. It is about what is best for the country now and in the future. I'd say that is especially true on the Yes side as if anything it is the No camp who have occassionally brought up history (ie First World War etc)

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 08:08 AM

Musket I am not sure what my opinion on the West Lothian Question is supposed to be but as Jim pointed out already independence for Scotland would end the issue at a single stroke. I favour independence and the SNP actually don't vote on English only matters as a point of principle. You should really be asking the unionist party and unionist supporters about the West Lothian Question!

As to the bureacracy thing the point I was making was that some layers will be removed. For instance we currently have SMPs and MPs where in an independent Scotland the MPs would no longer exist! That is the most obvious example. As would the Scottish Office etc!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Seaham cemetry
Date: 27 May 14 - 08:25 AM

I am a serving military doctor (although soon hope to be an NHS consultant if an interview last week goes to plan) who is presently based on a short term attachment at RAF Lossiemouth, in Scotland.

The base has a future with Typhoons and Tornados being deployed and lots of investment to make that a long term investment. The MoD however are hesitant to commit. It amazes me how many jobs locally, from Peterhead to Elgin are on the back of just even this airbase.

People like me spend so much time in military attachments and so much in NHS attachments. The grumbling at the university deaneries is that attempts to clarify how this would all work under an independent Scotland have been met with "don't worry, it'll all get sorted"

Scottish medical schools are concerned and Edinburgh University, possibly one of the most emminent schools of them all, is not attracting top students at the rate they were, losing out to a n other universities in England.

England won't be much help for their training as juniors either, because if the real parties jump on the UKIP bandwagon, junior doctors will be giving the service delivery that immigrant doctors plug the gap with now.

England needs at least 12,500 more immigrants to fill the gap with lack of home grown doctors. Scotland is doing itself no favours ith the few that there are. Many medical students are on visas and will return to other countries when they get their degrees and foundation training.

the only time I have heard Farage mention The NHS, he has had a cigarette in his hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 10:07 AM

"You statement is a clear generalisation that they "ie the Scots" are now denying their role in empire and blaming the English. I'd say that is a statement which as well as being sweeping isn't particularly correct and neither was it necessary."

I agree it was sweeping, and that was my mistake so sincere apologies. However, from south of the border it often seems all Scotland's ills are blamed on "the English", and this is a very common generalisation, certainly on the discussions and comments sections on the internet. You might not like it, but that's how it is. The whole debate has been set up to exploit this nationalistic thread.

"The independence debate is about the here and now and serious commentators and the leading figures etc don't particularly argue about historical issues"

Even Salmond thinks 2014 is a good year to hold the referendums it's the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn, and there's only one conclusion you can draw from that. You can't divorce history from modern politics, but you can learn from it and accept the harsh truths and face up to them. You personally might have done this, but there are many who haven't, and they tend to gravitate towards nationalism.

Like I say, I'm all for Scottish independence. If we're not mature enough to stick together (for most of the history of human occupation of this island we were one people with no nations to encumber us), then I hope the Scots can show the way to a more progressive and caring society; the one many of us have strived for over the centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 01:07 PM

If you actually follow the referendum debate within Scotland itself then there is very little blaming the English etc. In fact the SNP generally go out of their way not to go down that line and they probably know the media would jump on them immediately. Yes there are all kinds of idiots posting on websites etc (from both sides from within scotland and elsewhere) but surely you are wise enough to know that that doesn't actually mirror the real world? Trolls etc give people the completely wrong impression.

And of course the vote is not being held on the actual anniversary of Bannockburn. It is in the same year yes. The timescale has been down to the SNP first obtaining the mandate in an election; then seeing through the Scotland Bill first which prior to the election the SNP said would be the case; then the agreement had to be reached with Westminster first then the referendum bill itself needed to be passed through Holyrood and given assent which only happened in the Autumn of 2013. Are you suggesting that they should then have rushed everything through prior to Christmas without a reasonable time for debate, campaigning etc just so that it didn't happen to fall on the same year as the anniversary?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 03:37 PM

No, I'm suggesting the decision to hold the date during the "Year of Homecoming" is not a coincidence. Even Salmond has said he wanted the referendum in 2014

"but surely you are wise enough to know that that doesn't actually mirror the real world"

I'm not wise at all, in fact I'm pretty stupid. The only Scots apart from friends that I have discussed this with (oh, and the abusive bloke who owns the grocers halfway down The Royal Mile in Edinburgh who, last September called me and my wife "stupid", "ConDems" and subjected us to a 5 minute tirade about us down south), is the people on forums. Now, I understand that having a load of shouty gobshites representing your country on public forums is not pleasant (for the purposes of this discussion I'm English so can say I'm more than used to it), but it's happening. How I am supposed to know who are the chosen voices for the people?

"If you actually follow the referendum debate within Scotland itself"

I don't live there, and follow it as best I can from here (England). This is another comment often directed at posters with the audacity to challenge or question any aspect of independence: "You're not in Scotland and are ill-informed". On the other hand . . . there is an element of truth in this statement. Down in the south we are kept ignorant of the subtleties of the debate, although any expression of opinion is unwelcome and largely irrelevant (at least to the Scots).

I'm wondering if there will ever be a partnership of equals on this island when there is any degree of superiority felt by one section of the population over the others. Or perhaps that's always happened, and in my naive and idealogical airy-fairy world the idea we could actually play to our strengths as a single people and finally all get the say we deserve.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 14 - 08:48 AM

"They love his beer and fags approach but which one followed up Nick Robinson's hard questioning ? They concentrated on the hard time he got, not the lack of answers."

Rather imagine Musket that you are not that much shorter in the tooth than I am, which makes me marvel at your lack of realisation that "lack of answers" is a professional politicians stock in trade.

"We are a trading nation. A stockbroker by the name of Nigel Farage even said so.

50% of our trade is with our European partners. The common market is a bit of a success story."

If 50% of our trade is with our European partners that also means that 50% of it is not, and as the way they "fudge" trade figures the European 50% includes goods sent through Rotterdam to the rest of the world - which means that in real terms and in actual fact Britain does more trade with the rest of the world than she does with Europe - that has been the case now for over 18 months.

And yes I quite agree "The common market WAS a bit of a success story." - but we left the realms of The Common Market trading partnership that we actually voted to join along way behind in the wake of the drive for European Federalism - which nobody voted for.

"Scotland, after independence will be forced to address the issue of Europe and remove herself."

The reality that Scotland will face should Scotland vote Yes in September will be that come the 24th March 2016 Scotland will no longer be a member of the EU.

" England is a naturally left-leaning country that had had enough of Labour's fiscal ineptitude at the last general election and let the tories in, who have gone on to decimate our social structures, alienate a whole start of society with lies and have attempted to redefine us as a nation of corporate slaves."

WAAAAAAA F**kin' hilarious - if anything was decimated after the 2010 election and the Coalition Government came to power it is solely because of Labour's eternal and totally predictable fiscal ineptitude (Not one single Labour Government since 1945 has left office leaving the country in a better economic shape than they found it in)

"I haven't managed to find much about losing the stock market, losing 50% of export markets, losing multinational companies who provide jobs here as a gateway to Euro markets, employee rights, NHS..."

Last year FTSE rose what was it 15 to 18%. Income from investment was about 10% - so it performed very well, not quite as well as the DOW but good enough. London is one of world's biggest financial hubs it was before the Common Market/EEC/EU and will remain so afterwards. As for export markets I have dealt with that little "glass-half-empty" view up above. No multinational companies will flee, because it is simply easier and more profitable to do business in the UK than it is say in France, Germany, Spain or Italy. By the way Germany's best customer in the EU is??? - Britain.

"But at least, Musket, UKIP were only fourth in Scotland while the SNP won the Scottish election by topping the polls ... not bad for a government in its 7th year."

Voter turn out in Scotland for the EU elections was what? 32% and the SNP got about 30% of that. With just about 100 days to go to the referendum the percentage turn out should have been greater and the SNP vote should have been massive - If that translates to the Referendum the NO vote will win by a Kerry Mile.

"He then refused to rule out the idea that UKIP may work with the French National Front."

Shock and horror two vastly different parties with a shared political objective (i.e. Getting their respective country's out of the EU) MAY work together in the EU Parliament to further that goal - About as unusual as a story about a dog biting a man.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 28 May 14 - 10:25 AM

Terribulus, can you please say whose comments you are replying to? You did for my comments at the beginning but it reads as if I said things I most certainly didn't a bit further down.

That said, some of what you said is utter bollocks yet strangely, your laughter at the idea of us being a left leaning country echoed my own smile when I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 14 - 10:49 AM

The left leaning quote was mine. Not sure about the rest. True about the left-leaning thing though. We're a compassionate nation at heart.

Anyhow, it's good old Tezza finally rocked up to this discussion as it's all rather drab without someone more rightwing than a point in space fifty miles to the right of Nogood Farage's right bollock.

So how about it Mr. T. What now for England?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 May 14 - 12:03 PM

Stu I don't think an expression of an opinion is unwelcome but when statements are given as fact then of course they are there to be challenged. The simple fact is that the debate is largely not about history despite what some youtubers etc would lead you to believe. We all know that these forums are awash with trolls and eejits whatever subject is being discussed. It doesn't give a true persepctive of what the debate is really like.

One doesn't have to be in Scotland to follow the debate as of course technology gives everyone access to all the media if they wish to.

As to the year of the referendum Salmond said prior to the election that it would be in the second half of the term so there was always going to be a pretty good chance it would be in 2014. Had the Nats had a majority in their first term of gvt then we would have had it several years back. The idea that it has all been planned to coincide with Bannockburn doesn't wash with me at all. After all if it was to coincide with the anniversary then why have it late in the year way after said anniversary. And yes there are celebrations planned for said anniversary but do you think many people are that interested? Non-Scots seem to think the Scots are far more wrapped up in their history than most people here actually are! Another daft one is the idea that the rise in the SNP came about because of Braveheart! I know you haven't said that but it is often trotted out and is absolute nonsense. The fortunes of the SNP took a bit of a nosedive in the decade after the said film came out and as far as westminster goes they have never got anywhere close to their 1970s heyday since.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 29 May 14 - 08:23 AM

Ah well, Stu. Left leaning and compassionate are not mutually attached in my book. Compassionate socialism is a leftish idea and if you look to the right, then Adam Smith reckoned that capitalism needs a thriving economy of well heeled people, without the "wheel of charity" dragging them down. (In other words, not having to give alms as opposed to not wanting to.)

I see your point, but despite everything, I reckon left leaning is old hat. When I was in my twenties, you tended to lean towards Labour in a fit of social justice. To today's younger people, Labour and Conservative are the same, centrist philosophies. Both have their extreme cranks, both have a welfare state to safeguard, albeit disingenuously.

(I have to say Allan, a lot of Bannockburn and Braveheart in your last post. I would assume the argument for independence should have moved to pragmatism rather than misty eyed believing your own tourist twaddle?)

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 May 14 - 09:25 AM

Come on Musket that is a gross distortion of my post. In fact I don't think it could be more distorted if you tried. Bannockburn and Bravheart were only mentioned because I was saying that the argument is 'not' based on history (ie I was disputing that there is any Braveheart effect) and that the referendum is 'not' taking place on the anniversary of Bannockburn as Stu had suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 29 May 14 - 11:34 AM

Allan: I'm impressed by your faith in the motives of politicians, but think that Salmond et al are way too smart to miss a trick like that; he's been quoted as saying so himself. I'm intrigued as to why you believe Scottish politicians are any less vulnerable to mistakes and egotism than any others?


Musket: Since Smith wrote that around 300 years ago, capitalism has plenty of time to prove itself as an economic system. Setting aside the issues I have with Smith's premise, we now know that the system is deeply flawed. It is incapable of meaningful self-regualtion, relies on unlimited growth despite limited resources, and is exploitative; in fact, to work it needs to exploit both labour and resource.

Of course this means it has to eschew any social responsibilities it has, despite needing a functioning society to sell to. This is what we're seeing now as it becomes obvious that the current system is unequal and unsustainable in the long term. I think capitalism can work if it is subject to regulation to enable it's excesses to be curbed; it can't continue to operate outside the social structure.

Also, I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't want "the wheel of charity" dragging them down is not a very nice person. I'm glad I don't know them.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 29 May 14 - 12:25 PM

Yeah but Allan. I do have a dog in this race. What do you expect, objective opinion?

You don't ask for much, do you...

Stu

The wheel of charity was a phrase from the time. The welfare state replaced that. It remains the same though. Those who contribute expect a say in the level of taxation and what it is spent on.

Your observations echo some of my own to be fair. The problem with capitalism working though is that the boundaries of the state are no boundary for global concerns. You could quite easily say that a company who manages to trade here and pay no tax because they channel their funds to another country are morally sound if that lower tax country uses what tax they get for their social programme. We don't say that though because the state is the limit of socialism whereas the planet is the limit of capitalism.

For regulation to work, you need an international level playing field and this is where this thread came in.......

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 May 14 - 06:39 PM

"I'm intrigued as to why you believe Scottish politicians are any less vulnerable to mistakes and egotism than any others?"

I'm intrigued as to where I suggested that.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 May 14 - 06:41 PM

"What do you expect, objective opinion?"

Funnily enough.......maybe I'm naieve but yes I do expect that.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:04 AM

Must be one disappointment after another.

Regarding Scottish politicians. I may or may not think them similar or otherwise to any other politician but this I do know.

SNP politicians and others in the yes camp certainly have a dim view of the intelligence of Scottish people. They are asking people to make a fundamental decision to commit to independence and hope the promises made can then and only then be negotiated.

Their assumption that Westminster government will do anything other than act solely in the interest of The UK is rather pitiful. Do they honestly think people will vote without answers to currency, defence, EU membership or NATO?

If he wins the vote and loses the negotiations he'd better have a Darian MkII up his sleeve.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:45 AM

Some hopes Allan.....Ian has tunnel vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 14 - 05:46 AM

Got you weighed up though. Not difficult. So have all the respectable members of Mudcat.

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:53 AM

"I'm intrigued as to where I suggested that."

You didn't say it specifically, but it was implied in your comment regarding Salmond. Which you know of course. There's little point in discussing these fallacies.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 May 14 - 08:11 AM

Well it wasn't implied in the intention. Had Salmond had a majority last parliament then the referendum would have happened last parliament. That is pretty plain. That doesn't mean that I am suggesting that he or any other Scottish politician is any less egotistical than anyone else and I've never suggested that.

In fact I think Salmond's ego is about as big as they come. He is a formidable operator but let's say his manner and general smug expressions etc do put a lot of people off. Whether he is actually any more trustworthy than anyone else is up for debate but the facts are that he was by far the most popular and trusted (ie by the populace) politician in Scotland - though I think Sturgeon has kind of taken on that mantle now. They are miles ahead of anyone else though! However like many very popular politicians he is very divisive - she less so. More popular than others but really despised by those who don't like/trust him. A bit like Thatcher at her peak in that respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 May 14 - 08:58 AM

Musket however inept you think the Yes campaign is - it is obviously doing something right. The polls still vary a bit with the No sides lead varying from poll to poll - but all have showed a real narrowing of the margin over the last 6 months or so. There is a real groundswell of people getting interested in the issues frome both sides not just on social media but in packed meetings throughout the length and breadth of the country. Of course the various issues and scenarios are being discussed and taken into consideration. It is absurd to suggest they aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 14 - 09:50 AM

I like Sturgeon, and by all accounts she might actually be the real deal: a politician who genuinely cares. Salmond I care for much less, he was too close to Murdoch and Trump to retain any integrity for me, despite subsequent events. That's the Westminster way, and it's no good.

The Scots should really vote with their hearts, but then take the consequences either way and shoulder that responsibility. The union is over in a sense anyway now. Economists on both side will pitch figures to prop up their bids, but these are snake oil salesmen and should be ignored.

I'm looking forward to powers being devolved to English regional assemblies that reflect the character and strengths of the ordinary people they would represent. There's a way forward, right there.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 May 14 - 09:02 AM

Way to go! Scotland is more than capable of sorting its own affairs.

They just started the Edinburgh trams in err record time!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 03:23 AM

It isn't just Scotland who can overspend and have projects take longer than expected. For instance £6billion overspend and 26 year delay in defence projects by MOD!! Plus it has nothing to do with independence anyway.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/10/mod-criticised-6bn-overspend-projects

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 03:35 AM

Latest polls of voters intentions show large swings to the YES for independence campaign.

Personal canvassing all over Argyll, shows momentum in favour of independence, especially amongst traditional Labour voters and women.
The women's vote appears to have swung dramatically, some polls showing 51% in favour of self rule.

The Scottish saltire is beginning to appear on many houses and gardens, and I'm beginning to believe we can do it, against all the odds.
The lack of representation in Westminster, and the attacks on the Health Service appear to be the clinchers now.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM

You gotta go for it. England is truly fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 03:43 PM

well said, stu -from first post to last. anyone else feel scared by this increased security alert? (the government not the threat) by pictures on the tv of watchful and heavily armed police and by cameron telling us this stuff from behind a us president-style lectern with 2 union jacks behind (not to mention a rare tv appearance by the menacing theresa may) i fear the scottish result has already been decided by the establishment - just don't know what they have decided, except don't expect any change re: trident. as you say stu - surely we are better than this?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 06:30 AM

The YES campaign is getting into top gear, the poll results are narrowing very quickly, so are we surprised that the NO campaign have never even considered what happens to the rest of the UK after Scottish independence?

Is it arrogance or fear which keeps Westminster from addressing this possible, or probable, situation.
The removal of WMDs from Scottish soil, could have a huge bearing on Western military strategy. Where will they be moved to and at what cost?
How will it effect the Anglo/American "special relationship?

President Obama has already said he is against independence for Scotland.....what do mudcatters think?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 07:07 AM

good riddence to the miserable, whinging, spoiled brats of Scotland, who have ridden to wealth on the coat tails of the English for 300 years; over represented, over funded, a pernicious influence of every strand of life in England and pandered to by every government. Why is there no heavy industry or deep sea fishing fleets in England? Because they were all shut down to keep Scots in work

Ahhh, I feel better for that :- )

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 07:46 AM

I don't know whether independence for Scotland would be good or bad. I'd have to look at the evidence and what would be in place post independence.

Snag is, nobody has supplied it. All the Scots have is promises from politicians who have no right to promise what they cannot deliver, either side of the argument. If the Scots have a mandate to negotiate currency union, the British will have cause for a referendum whether to share or not. I believe that is the position regarding currency sharing. It is the position of all parties re the Euro, and sterling union is no different.

There is a huge difference between being against it for nationalistic reasons and against it because the advantages are not known yet. I cannot believe a majority of people eligible to vote want to risk everything for pure anti Cameron reasons.

The fools on this thread who think that if a Tory Prime Minister wants something, oppose it anyway and give him a bloody nose, are the most reckless dangerous traitors to their country.

Not that I am biased you understand...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:04 AM

Post from Dazbo isn't worth commenting on! Musket of course the rest of the UK would have to agree to a currency union. The SNP have simply said it is their favoured option (not their only option) and they would look to negotiate for that. They believe that the current UK gvt's position is simply a campaign tactic. That doesn't mean that the UK gvt would actually agree to it should there be a Yes vote. Yes voters know that is the case - they just feel it hasn't been really considered and is being used as a scare tactic - but it is a scare tactic which isn't working anyway! Even in the wake of the first debate when Darling performed well over said issue and Salmod fluffed his lines most polls still showed a closing of the gap.

As to the idea that the only reason for voting Yes is because they are anti-Cameron is silly and just shows non-comprehension on your part as to how many Scots feel. Many feel that having an independent Scotland is the best way to both take the country forward and build the type of society they want. I think it is clear by now that you don't agree with that, and simply find it hard to comprehend it, but it is what many Scots think all the same. Scottish Labour's stance, and they were even making it last night in the debate whilst sitting on their panel with the leader of the Scottish Consevatives, is that they can produce the kind of society the SNP envisage by winning the UK election. The Best Of Both Worlds as they say. The trouble is they can't guarantee an election win; even if they did they can't guarantee pushing further devolution through Westminster, and of course finally the question - if we are Better Together then why aren't we already Better Together? They've had chances a-plenty.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 10:02 AM

I think currency union is not an option for a several reasons. Firstly, it would have to go to a referendum as it would mean English taxpayers potentially footing the bill for Scotland's debt. As Salmond has decided the English taxpayer (including the poor) will foot Scotland's share of the national debt what is there to lose in rUK voters being in favour? We'll get shat on by Westminster or Holyrood either way. I thought Salmond was above this sort of thing, but there you go; he's a politician after all. The elite and establishment don't want it, and my guess is most rUK voters won't either; we've got enough shite to contend with without being lender of last resort to a foreign country.

Secondly I bumped into my MP (tory) over the weekend (I'm trying to get him to believe in anthropogenic climate change). I mentioned currency union to him and have never seen him so animated. He was adamant it would never happen, and I'm guessing the main parties but the tories especially will kibosh any attempt at it. He wasn't even a bit against it and he ranted on; I've never heard him be so committal about any other subject, ever. He was nearly foaming at the mouth.

Finally, independence won't be independence with currency union and England controls the currency. Take the plunge and stop pissing about with this half-arsed union of any kind, dump sterling and get on with it.

Scotland has to vote yes. Westminster politics has turned the whole of the UK into an unequal, unjust and frankly pathetic country, clinging to the legs of stateless ubercapitalists and a US government that lost it's last shreds of moral superiority after it's barbaric response to the horror of 9/11.

Imagine if the last vestiges of Empire are swept away by the Scots voting to break up the union on the watch of those ultimate little imperialist tosspots, the tories? We might finally be able to build a far more representative and equitable society. If we don't have the capability to work together to reform the union into a more socially just society, we'll have to do it as separate nations.

C'mon Scotland. Let's 'ave yer!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 11:05 AM

Allan. I'm not sure everybody in the yes camp thinks it through in the way you have portrayed.

I'm also not convinced the pros and cons have been presented. As I said, I am convinced there are, quite rightly, a lot of people who will vote no who would happily entertain an independent Scotland but listening to SNP rhetoric, don't think that either a case has been made nor any deliverable advantages laid out.

Out of interest, I think this affair has also shown the shallowness and incompetence of David Cameron.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 11:35 AM

That is true not everyone thinks it through and some are swayed more by their hearts or fears but that applies to both sides! I know a few people who have said I don't know enough about it so I'm voting No. However I don't think people down south really understand what a grass roots movement there has been behind, particulary, the Yes side. People who have never done so before are attending public meetings, talking politics at social outings, swapping info with each other every day on social media etc. It has gone beyond the normal party poliitical debates etc. People are reading, and listening to the issues and arguments etc. People are involved and yesterday the last day for registration the offices were inundated with people queing to register. So when two women journalists from down south sit on News 24 and say things like "oh I don't hink they've thought about it" and "I don't think they realise for ever is a long time" it says more about their lack of understanding of what is going on in Scotland than it does about the electorate as a whole. I mean even as Labour contnue to tell their own supporters to get on the bus and stay quiet some polls show about almost 30% of Labour voters saying they are going to vote Yes. Whatever the outcome (and they are expecting about 80% turnout or possibly more) there has been a real grass roots movement