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BS: Whither now England?

GUEST,Allan Conn 03 Sep 14 - 11:35 AM
Musket 03 Sep 14 - 11:05 AM
Stu 03 Sep 14 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 03 Sep 14 - 09:04 AM
Musket 03 Sep 14 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Dazbo at work 03 Sep 14 - 07:07 AM
akenaton 03 Sep 14 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 29 Aug 14 - 03:43 PM
Stu 29 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM
akenaton 29 Aug 14 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 01 Jun 14 - 03:23 AM
GUEST,Musket 31 May 14 - 09:02 AM
Stu 30 May 14 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 30 May 14 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 30 May 14 - 08:11 AM
Stu 30 May 14 - 07:53 AM
Musket 30 May 14 - 05:46 AM
akenaton 30 May 14 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,Musket 30 May 14 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 29 May 14 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 29 May 14 - 06:39 PM
Musket 29 May 14 - 12:25 PM
Stu 29 May 14 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 29 May 14 - 09:25 AM
Musket 29 May 14 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 28 May 14 - 12:03 PM
Stu 28 May 14 - 10:49 AM
Musket 28 May 14 - 10:25 AM
Teribus 28 May 14 - 08:48 AM
Stu 27 May 14 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 27 May 14 - 01:07 PM
Stu 27 May 14 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Seaham cemetry 27 May 14 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 27 May 14 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 27 May 14 - 07:55 AM
Stu 27 May 14 - 05:57 AM
Musket 27 May 14 - 05:34 AM
Brian May 27 May 14 - 05:24 AM
Musket 27 May 14 - 05:10 AM
Musket 27 May 14 - 04:52 AM
Jim McLean 27 May 14 - 04:40 AM
Musket 27 May 14 - 04:03 AM
Stu 27 May 14 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 27 May 14 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 27 May 14 - 02:46 AM
Bill D 26 May 14 - 09:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 May 14 - 07:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 May 14 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 26 May 14 - 07:01 PM
akenaton 26 May 14 - 04:53 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 11:35 AM

That is true not everyone thinks it through and some are swayed more by their hearts or fears but that applies to both sides! I know a few people who have said I don't know enough about it so I'm voting No. However I don't think people down south really understand what a grass roots movement there has been behind, particulary, the Yes side. People who have never done so before are attending public meetings, talking politics at social outings, swapping info with each other every day on social media etc. It has gone beyond the normal party poliitical debates etc. People are reading, and listening to the issues and arguments etc. People are involved and yesterday the last day for registration the offices were inundated with people queing to register. So when two women journalists from down south sit on News 24 and say things like "oh I don't hink they've thought about it" and "I don't think they realise for ever is a long time" it says more about their lack of understanding of what is going on in Scotland than it does about the electorate as a whole. I mean even as Labour contnue to tell their own supporters to get on the bus and stay quiet some polls show about almost 30% of Labour voters saying they are going to vote Yes. Whatever the outcome (and they are expecting about 80% turnout or possibly more) there has been a real grass roots movement


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 11:05 AM

Allan. I'm not sure everybody in the yes camp thinks it through in the way you have portrayed.

I'm also not convinced the pros and cons have been presented. As I said, I am convinced there are, quite rightly, a lot of people who will vote no who would happily entertain an independent Scotland but listening to SNP rhetoric, don't think that either a case has been made nor any deliverable advantages laid out.

Out of interest, I think this affair has also shown the shallowness and incompetence of David Cameron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 10:02 AM

I think currency union is not an option for a several reasons. Firstly, it would have to go to a referendum as it would mean English taxpayers potentially footing the bill for Scotland's debt. As Salmond has decided the English taxpayer (including the poor) will foot Scotland's share of the national debt what is there to lose in rUK voters being in favour? We'll get shat on by Westminster or Holyrood either way. I thought Salmond was above this sort of thing, but there you go; he's a politician after all. The elite and establishment don't want it, and my guess is most rUK voters won't either; we've got enough shite to contend with without being lender of last resort to a foreign country.

Secondly I bumped into my MP (tory) over the weekend (I'm trying to get him to believe in anthropogenic climate change). I mentioned currency union to him and have never seen him so animated. He was adamant it would never happen, and I'm guessing the main parties but the tories especially will kibosh any attempt at it. He wasn't even a bit against it and he ranted on; I've never heard him be so committal about any other subject, ever. He was nearly foaming at the mouth.

Finally, independence won't be independence with currency union and England controls the currency. Take the plunge and stop pissing about with this half-arsed union of any kind, dump sterling and get on with it.

Scotland has to vote yes. Westminster politics has turned the whole of the UK into an unequal, unjust and frankly pathetic country, clinging to the legs of stateless ubercapitalists and a US government that lost it's last shreds of moral superiority after it's barbaric response to the horror of 9/11.

Imagine if the last vestiges of Empire are swept away by the Scots voting to break up the union on the watch of those ultimate little imperialist tosspots, the tories? We might finally be able to build a far more representative and equitable society. If we don't have the capability to work together to reform the union into a more socially just society, we'll have to do it as separate nations.

C'mon Scotland. Let's 'ave yer!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:04 AM

Post from Dazbo isn't worth commenting on! Musket of course the rest of the UK would have to agree to a currency union. The SNP have simply said it is their favoured option (not their only option) and they would look to negotiate for that. They believe that the current UK gvt's position is simply a campaign tactic. That doesn't mean that the UK gvt would actually agree to it should there be a Yes vote. Yes voters know that is the case - they just feel it hasn't been really considered and is being used as a scare tactic - but it is a scare tactic which isn't working anyway! Even in the wake of the first debate when Darling performed well over said issue and Salmod fluffed his lines most polls still showed a closing of the gap.

As to the idea that the only reason for voting Yes is because they are anti-Cameron is silly and just shows non-comprehension on your part as to how many Scots feel. Many feel that having an independent Scotland is the best way to both take the country forward and build the type of society they want. I think it is clear by now that you don't agree with that, and simply find it hard to comprehend it, but it is what many Scots think all the same. Scottish Labour's stance, and they were even making it last night in the debate whilst sitting on their panel with the leader of the Scottish Consevatives, is that they can produce the kind of society the SNP envisage by winning the UK election. The Best Of Both Worlds as they say. The trouble is they can't guarantee an election win; even if they did they can't guarantee pushing further devolution through Westminster, and of course finally the question - if we are Better Together then why aren't we already Better Together? They've had chances a-plenty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 07:46 AM

I don't know whether independence for Scotland would be good or bad. I'd have to look at the evidence and what would be in place post independence.

Snag is, nobody has supplied it. All the Scots have is promises from politicians who have no right to promise what they cannot deliver, either side of the argument. If the Scots have a mandate to negotiate currency union, the British will have cause for a referendum whether to share or not. I believe that is the position regarding currency sharing. It is the position of all parties re the Euro, and sterling union is no different.

There is a huge difference between being against it for nationalistic reasons and against it because the advantages are not known yet. I cannot believe a majority of people eligible to vote want to risk everything for pure anti Cameron reasons.

The fools on this thread who think that if a Tory Prime Minister wants something, oppose it anyway and give him a bloody nose, are the most reckless dangerous traitors to their country.

Not that I am biased you understand...


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 07:07 AM

good riddence to the miserable, whinging, spoiled brats of Scotland, who have ridden to wealth on the coat tails of the English for 300 years; over represented, over funded, a pernicious influence of every strand of life in England and pandered to by every government. Why is there no heavy industry or deep sea fishing fleets in England? Because they were all shut down to keep Scots in work

Ahhh, I feel better for that :- )


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 06:30 AM

The YES campaign is getting into top gear, the poll results are narrowing very quickly, so are we surprised that the NO campaign have never even considered what happens to the rest of the UK after Scottish independence?

Is it arrogance or fear which keeps Westminster from addressing this possible, or probable, situation.
The removal of WMDs from Scottish soil, could have a huge bearing on Western military strategy. Where will they be moved to and at what cost?
How will it effect the Anglo/American "special relationship?

President Obama has already said he is against independence for Scotland.....what do mudcatters think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 03:43 PM

well said, stu -from first post to last. anyone else feel scared by this increased security alert? (the government not the threat) by pictures on the tv of watchful and heavily armed police and by cameron telling us this stuff from behind a us president-style lectern with 2 union jacks behind (not to mention a rare tv appearance by the menacing theresa may) i fear the scottish result has already been decided by the establishment - just don't know what they have decided, except don't expect any change re: trident. as you say stu - surely we are better than this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM

You gotta go for it. England is truly fucked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 03:35 AM

Latest polls of voters intentions show large swings to the YES for independence campaign.

Personal canvassing all over Argyll, shows momentum in favour of independence, especially amongst traditional Labour voters and women.
The women's vote appears to have swung dramatically, some polls showing 51% in favour of self rule.

The Scottish saltire is beginning to appear on many houses and gardens, and I'm beginning to believe we can do it, against all the odds.
The lack of representation in Westminster, and the attacks on the Health Service appear to be the clinchers now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 03:23 AM

It isn't just Scotland who can overspend and have projects take longer than expected. For instance £6billion overspend and 26 year delay in defence projects by MOD!! Plus it has nothing to do with independence anyway.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/10/mod-criticised-6bn-overspend-projects


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 May 14 - 09:02 AM

Way to go! Scotland is more than capable of sorting its own affairs.

They just started the Edinburgh trams in err record time!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 14 - 09:50 AM

I like Sturgeon, and by all accounts she might actually be the real deal: a politician who genuinely cares. Salmond I care for much less, he was too close to Murdoch and Trump to retain any integrity for me, despite subsequent events. That's the Westminster way, and it's no good.

The Scots should really vote with their hearts, but then take the consequences either way and shoulder that responsibility. The union is over in a sense anyway now. Economists on both side will pitch figures to prop up their bids, but these are snake oil salesmen and should be ignored.

I'm looking forward to powers being devolved to English regional assemblies that reflect the character and strengths of the ordinary people they would represent. There's a way forward, right there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 May 14 - 08:58 AM

Musket however inept you think the Yes campaign is - it is obviously doing something right. The polls still vary a bit with the No sides lead varying from poll to poll - but all have showed a real narrowing of the margin over the last 6 months or so. There is a real groundswell of people getting interested in the issues frome both sides not just on social media but in packed meetings throughout the length and breadth of the country. Of course the various issues and scenarios are being discussed and taken into consideration. It is absurd to suggest they aren't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 May 14 - 08:11 AM

Well it wasn't implied in the intention. Had Salmond had a majority last parliament then the referendum would have happened last parliament. That is pretty plain. That doesn't mean that I am suggesting that he or any other Scottish politician is any less egotistical than anyone else and I've never suggested that.

In fact I think Salmond's ego is about as big as they come. He is a formidable operator but let's say his manner and general smug expressions etc do put a lot of people off. Whether he is actually any more trustworthy than anyone else is up for debate but the facts are that he was by far the most popular and trusted (ie by the populace) politician in Scotland - though I think Sturgeon has kind of taken on that mantle now. They are miles ahead of anyone else though! However like many very popular politicians he is very divisive - she less so. More popular than others but really despised by those who don't like/trust him. A bit like Thatcher at her peak in that respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:53 AM

"I'm intrigued as to where I suggested that."

You didn't say it specifically, but it was implied in your comment regarding Salmond. Which you know of course. There's little point in discussing these fallacies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 14 - 05:46 AM

Got you weighed up though. Not difficult. So have all the respectable members of Mudcat.

Back in your hole worm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:45 AM

Some hopes Allan.....Ian has tunnel vision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:04 AM

Must be one disappointment after another.

Regarding Scottish politicians. I may or may not think them similar or otherwise to any other politician but this I do know.

SNP politicians and others in the yes camp certainly have a dim view of the intelligence of Scottish people. They are asking people to make a fundamental decision to commit to independence and hope the promises made can then and only then be negotiated.

Their assumption that Westminster government will do anything other than act solely in the interest of The UK is rather pitiful. Do they honestly think people will vote without answers to currency, defence, EU membership or NATO?

If he wins the vote and loses the negotiations he'd better have a Darian MkII up his sleeve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 May 14 - 06:41 PM

"What do you expect, objective opinion?"

Funnily enough.......maybe I'm naieve but yes I do expect that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 May 14 - 06:39 PM

"I'm intrigued as to why you believe Scottish politicians are any less vulnerable to mistakes and egotism than any others?"

I'm intrigued as to where I suggested that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 29 May 14 - 12:25 PM

Yeah but Allan. I do have a dog in this race. What do you expect, objective opinion?

You don't ask for much, do you...

Stu

The wheel of charity was a phrase from the time. The welfare state replaced that. It remains the same though. Those who contribute expect a say in the level of taxation and what it is spent on.

Your observations echo some of my own to be fair. The problem with capitalism working though is that the boundaries of the state are no boundary for global concerns. You could quite easily say that a company who manages to trade here and pay no tax because they channel their funds to another country are morally sound if that lower tax country uses what tax they get for their social programme. We don't say that though because the state is the limit of socialism whereas the planet is the limit of capitalism.

For regulation to work, you need an international level playing field and this is where this thread came in.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 29 May 14 - 11:34 AM

Allan: I'm impressed by your faith in the motives of politicians, but think that Salmond et al are way too smart to miss a trick like that; he's been quoted as saying so himself. I'm intrigued as to why you believe Scottish politicians are any less vulnerable to mistakes and egotism than any others?


Musket: Since Smith wrote that around 300 years ago, capitalism has plenty of time to prove itself as an economic system. Setting aside the issues I have with Smith's premise, we now know that the system is deeply flawed. It is incapable of meaningful self-regualtion, relies on unlimited growth despite limited resources, and is exploitative; in fact, to work it needs to exploit both labour and resource.

Of course this means it has to eschew any social responsibilities it has, despite needing a functioning society to sell to. This is what we're seeing now as it becomes obvious that the current system is unequal and unsustainable in the long term. I think capitalism can work if it is subject to regulation to enable it's excesses to be curbed; it can't continue to operate outside the social structure.

Also, I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't want "the wheel of charity" dragging them down is not a very nice person. I'm glad I don't know them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 May 14 - 09:25 AM

Come on Musket that is a gross distortion of my post. In fact I don't think it could be more distorted if you tried. Bannockburn and Bravheart were only mentioned because I was saying that the argument is 'not' based on history (ie I was disputing that there is any Braveheart effect) and that the referendum is 'not' taking place on the anniversary of Bannockburn as Stu had suggested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 29 May 14 - 08:23 AM

Ah well, Stu. Left leaning and compassionate are not mutually attached in my book. Compassionate socialism is a leftish idea and if you look to the right, then Adam Smith reckoned that capitalism needs a thriving economy of well heeled people, without the "wheel of charity" dragging them down. (In other words, not having to give alms as opposed to not wanting to.)

I see your point, but despite everything, I reckon left leaning is old hat. When I was in my twenties, you tended to lean towards Labour in a fit of social justice. To today's younger people, Labour and Conservative are the same, centrist philosophies. Both have their extreme cranks, both have a welfare state to safeguard, albeit disingenuously.

(I have to say Allan, a lot of Bannockburn and Braveheart in your last post. I would assume the argument for independence should have moved to pragmatism rather than misty eyed believing your own tourist twaddle?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 May 14 - 12:03 PM

Stu I don't think an expression of an opinion is unwelcome but when statements are given as fact then of course they are there to be challenged. The simple fact is that the debate is largely not about history despite what some youtubers etc would lead you to believe. We all know that these forums are awash with trolls and eejits whatever subject is being discussed. It doesn't give a true persepctive of what the debate is really like.

One doesn't have to be in Scotland to follow the debate as of course technology gives everyone access to all the media if they wish to.

As to the year of the referendum Salmond said prior to the election that it would be in the second half of the term so there was always going to be a pretty good chance it would be in 2014. Had the Nats had a majority in their first term of gvt then we would have had it several years back. The idea that it has all been planned to coincide with Bannockburn doesn't wash with me at all. After all if it was to coincide with the anniversary then why have it late in the year way after said anniversary. And yes there are celebrations planned for said anniversary but do you think many people are that interested? Non-Scots seem to think the Scots are far more wrapped up in their history than most people here actually are! Another daft one is the idea that the rise in the SNP came about because of Braveheart! I know you haven't said that but it is often trotted out and is absolute nonsense. The fortunes of the SNP took a bit of a nosedive in the decade after the said film came out and as far as westminster goes they have never got anywhere close to their 1970s heyday since.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 14 - 10:49 AM

The left leaning quote was mine. Not sure about the rest. True about the left-leaning thing though. We're a compassionate nation at heart.

Anyhow, it's good old Tezza finally rocked up to this discussion as it's all rather drab without someone more rightwing than a point in space fifty miles to the right of Nogood Farage's right bollock.

So how about it Mr. T. What now for England?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 28 May 14 - 10:25 AM

Terribulus, can you please say whose comments you are replying to? You did for my comments at the beginning but it reads as if I said things I most certainly didn't a bit further down.

That said, some of what you said is utter bollocks yet strangely, your laughter at the idea of us being a left leaning country echoed my own smile when I read it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 14 - 08:48 AM

"They love his beer and fags approach but which one followed up Nick Robinson's hard questioning ? They concentrated on the hard time he got, not the lack of answers."

Rather imagine Musket that you are not that much shorter in the tooth than I am, which makes me marvel at your lack of realisation that "lack of answers" is a professional politicians stock in trade.

"We are a trading nation. A stockbroker by the name of Nigel Farage even said so.

50% of our trade is with our European partners. The common market is a bit of a success story."


If 50% of our trade is with our European partners that also means that 50% of it is not, and as the way they "fudge" trade figures the European 50% includes goods sent through Rotterdam to the rest of the world - which means that in real terms and in actual fact Britain does more trade with the rest of the world than she does with Europe - that has been the case now for over 18 months.

And yes I quite agree "The common market WAS a bit of a success story." - but we left the realms of The Common Market trading partnership that we actually voted to join along way behind in the wake of the drive for European Federalism - which nobody voted for.

"Scotland, after independence will be forced to address the issue of Europe and remove herself."

The reality that Scotland will face should Scotland vote Yes in September will be that come the 24th March 2016 Scotland will no longer be a member of the EU.

" England is a naturally left-leaning country that had had enough of Labour's fiscal ineptitude at the last general election and let the tories in, who have gone on to decimate our social structures, alienate a whole start of society with lies and have attempted to redefine us as a nation of corporate slaves."

WAAAAAAA F**kin' hilarious - if anything was decimated after the 2010 election and the Coalition Government came to power it is solely because of Labour's eternal and totally predictable fiscal ineptitude (Not one single Labour Government since 1945 has left office leaving the country in a better economic shape than they found it in)

"I haven't managed to find much about losing the stock market, losing 50% of export markets, losing multinational companies who provide jobs here as a gateway to Euro markets, employee rights, NHS..."

Last year FTSE rose what was it 15 to 18%. Income from investment was about 10% - so it performed very well, not quite as well as the DOW but good enough. London is one of world's biggest financial hubs it was before the Common Market/EEC/EU and will remain so afterwards. As for export markets I have dealt with that little "glass-half-empty" view up above. No multinational companies will flee, because it is simply easier and more profitable to do business in the UK than it is say in France, Germany, Spain or Italy. By the way Germany's best customer in the EU is??? - Britain.

"But at least, Musket, UKIP were only fourth in Scotland while the SNP won the Scottish election by topping the polls ... not bad for a government in its 7th year."

Voter turn out in Scotland for the EU elections was what? 32% and the SNP got about 30% of that. With just about 100 days to go to the referendum the percentage turn out should have been greater and the SNP vote should have been massive - If that translates to the Referendum the NO vote will win by a Kerry Mile.

"He then refused to rule out the idea that UKIP may work with the French National Front."

Shock and horror two vastly different parties with a shared political objective (i.e. Getting their respective country's out of the EU) MAY work together in the EU Parliament to further that goal - About as unusual as a story about a dog biting a man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 03:37 PM

No, I'm suggesting the decision to hold the date during the "Year of Homecoming" is not a coincidence. Even Salmond has said he wanted the referendum in 2014

"but surely you are wise enough to know that that doesn't actually mirror the real world"

I'm not wise at all, in fact I'm pretty stupid. The only Scots apart from friends that I have discussed this with (oh, and the abusive bloke who owns the grocers halfway down The Royal Mile in Edinburgh who, last September called me and my wife "stupid", "ConDems" and subjected us to a 5 minute tirade about us down south), is the people on forums. Now, I understand that having a load of shouty gobshites representing your country on public forums is not pleasant (for the purposes of this discussion I'm English so can say I'm more than used to it), but it's happening. How I am supposed to know who are the chosen voices for the people?

"If you actually follow the referendum debate within Scotland itself"

I don't live there, and follow it as best I can from here (England). This is another comment often directed at posters with the audacity to challenge or question any aspect of independence: "You're not in Scotland and are ill-informed". On the other hand . . . there is an element of truth in this statement. Down in the south we are kept ignorant of the subtleties of the debate, although any expression of opinion is unwelcome and largely irrelevant (at least to the Scots).

I'm wondering if there will ever be a partnership of equals on this island when there is any degree of superiority felt by one section of the population over the others. Or perhaps that's always happened, and in my naive and idealogical airy-fairy world the idea we could actually play to our strengths as a single people and finally all get the say we deserve.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 01:07 PM

If you actually follow the referendum debate within Scotland itself then there is very little blaming the English etc. In fact the SNP generally go out of their way not to go down that line and they probably know the media would jump on them immediately. Yes there are all kinds of idiots posting on websites etc (from both sides from within scotland and elsewhere) but surely you are wise enough to know that that doesn't actually mirror the real world? Trolls etc give people the completely wrong impression.

And of course the vote is not being held on the actual anniversary of Bannockburn. It is in the same year yes. The timescale has been down to the SNP first obtaining the mandate in an election; then seeing through the Scotland Bill first which prior to the election the SNP said would be the case; then the agreement had to be reached with Westminster first then the referendum bill itself needed to be passed through Holyrood and given assent which only happened in the Autumn of 2013. Are you suggesting that they should then have rushed everything through prior to Christmas without a reasonable time for debate, campaigning etc just so that it didn't happen to fall on the same year as the anniversary?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 10:07 AM

"You statement is a clear generalisation that they "ie the Scots" are now denying their role in empire and blaming the English. I'd say that is a statement which as well as being sweeping isn't particularly correct and neither was it necessary."

I agree it was sweeping, and that was my mistake so sincere apologies. However, from south of the border it often seems all Scotland's ills are blamed on "the English", and this is a very common generalisation, certainly on the discussions and comments sections on the internet. You might not like it, but that's how it is. The whole debate has been set up to exploit this nationalistic thread.

"The independence debate is about the here and now and serious commentators and the leading figures etc don't particularly argue about historical issues"

Even Salmond thinks 2014 is a good year to hold the referendums it's the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn, and there's only one conclusion you can draw from that. You can't divorce history from modern politics, but you can learn from it and accept the harsh truths and face up to them. You personally might have done this, but there are many who haven't, and they tend to gravitate towards nationalism.

Like I say, I'm all for Scottish independence. If we're not mature enough to stick together (for most of the history of human occupation of this island we were one people with no nations to encumber us), then I hope the Scots can show the way to a more progressive and caring society; the one many of us have strived for over the centuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Seaham cemetry
Date: 27 May 14 - 08:25 AM

I am a serving military doctor (although soon hope to be an NHS consultant if an interview last week goes to plan) who is presently based on a short term attachment at RAF Lossiemouth, in Scotland.

The base has a future with Typhoons and Tornados being deployed and lots of investment to make that a long term investment. The MoD however are hesitant to commit. It amazes me how many jobs locally, from Peterhead to Elgin are on the back of just even this airbase.

People like me spend so much time in military attachments and so much in NHS attachments. The grumbling at the university deaneries is that attempts to clarify how this would all work under an independent Scotland have been met with "don't worry, it'll all get sorted"

Scottish medical schools are concerned and Edinburgh University, possibly one of the most emminent schools of them all, is not attracting top students at the rate they were, losing out to a n other universities in England.

England won't be much help for their training as juniors either, because if the real parties jump on the UKIP bandwagon, junior doctors will be giving the service delivery that immigrant doctors plug the gap with now.

England needs at least 12,500 more immigrants to fill the gap with lack of home grown doctors. Scotland is doing itself no favours ith the few that there are. Many medical students are on visas and will return to other countries when they get their degrees and foundation training.

the only time I have heard Farage mention The NHS, he has had a cigarette in his hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 08:08 AM

Musket I am not sure what my opinion on the West Lothian Question is supposed to be but as Jim pointed out already independence for Scotland would end the issue at a single stroke. I favour independence and the SNP actually don't vote on English only matters as a point of principle. You should really be asking the unionist party and unionist supporters about the West Lothian Question!

As to the bureacracy thing the point I was making was that some layers will be removed. For instance we currently have SMPs and MPs where in an independent Scotland the MPs would no longer exist! That is the most obvious example. As would the Scottish Office etc!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 07:55 AM

"It's also looking like the Scots are finally going to shake of the Westminster Yoke and vote for independence later in the year. Already they are beginning to deny their role in empire, preferring to blame the English for their collusion in the oppression of empire"

Sorry Stu but you don't say some Scots think this or that way. You statement is a clear generalisation that they "ie the Scots" are now denying their role in empire and blaming the English. I'd say that is a statement which as well as being sweeping isn't particularly correct and neither was it necessary. If you didn't mean it to read that way then fair dos.

I know there are exceptions and daft statements can be found on youtube etc by individuals but most Scots know very well the Scottish involvement in empire etc, in fact some revel in it, but that is history. As for me playing the victim then sorry not so. If folk make what appear to be sweeping statements about one's nation then of course one has the right to reply! And to tell you the truth I'd do the same if the statement had been aimed at the English.

The independence debate is about the here and now and serious commentators and the leading figures etc don't particularly argue about historical issues. It is about what is best for the country now and in the future. I'd say that is especially true on the Yes side as if anything it is the No camp who have occassionally brought up history (ie First World War etc)


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:57 AM

"Folks are fed up with politicians following their own agenda and blatantly, arrogantly, ignoring the wishes of a big chunk of the electorate."

Which oddly enough, is what UKIP are doing. They're hardly trend buckers or some radical organisation from outside of the political establishment. Farage has run for Westminster 5 times and is an ex-stockbroker. His gift lies in oratory, not honesty. He's got about as much in common with ordinary folk as we have with him - nowt.

Of course, the reaction of the other parties is as predictable as ever; if this was a protest vote then the message hasn't got through. But then, it's led by one of their own so perhaps it's not so much of a genuine threat after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:34 AM

Sanity being one...


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Brian May
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:24 AM

Ho, ho, ho

Having just revisited, you (collectively) aren't half predictable!

The UKIP vote is simply that 'we racist bigot band of brothers here on St Crispin's day', number in the millions. Folks are fed up with politicians following their own agenda and blatantly, arrogantly, ignoring the wishes of a big chunk of the electorate.

We (all) live in interesting times.

There are one or two paradigms being challenged in European politics just at the moment . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:10 AM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:52 AM

Yes Jim, and read my first line. I wasn't assuming the yes vote will prevail. The EU elections (and council elections south of the border) are sinking in. People are waking up to the reality of consequences of going somewhere they haven't been before, and the implications of this.

Salmond's lack of answers to pertinent questions and assurances he is in no position to give may work for The Morningside Lunching Ladies Association, may even work for old men who wear tweeds and the occasional tartan, but real people worried about real job security?

Waking up to change isn't the fun it is cracked up to be, as many people seem to be saying. "I gave a protest vote, didn't think the bugger would be elected" seems to be the pub talk where I live. Howsabout your neck of the woods?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:40 AM

Akenaton, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "Interesting Jim, never thought an admirer of McDairmid would be have any truck with faux liberalism or political correctness."
Living in a stable does not make me a horse and I opposed apartheid in South Africa while living in Scotland. I don't think one can judge the mood of Scottish people by living in one part of it. I watch the Scottish news and read all the Scottish rags every day and correspond regularly with political groups so I think I have a fair knowledge.
My politics in a nutshell: Scottish Independence first.

Back to the thread, Stu makes many good points but when the English voter looks for an alternative to Tory, Labour or Liberal they see UKIP and vote accordingly for some of the reasons Stu points out. Where is the vision for a new, fresh England? Getting out of the EU and blaming immigrants for the lack of housing or job opportunities? And by the way Musket, the West Lothian question, Trident and the House of Lords all disappear with Independence. Maybe if there was an English party which advocated and believed in these policies, UKIP might disappear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:03 AM

Allan... I respect your approach to this, even if my own feelings don't coincide with yours on the Westlothian question, as it used to be called, and still may revert to..

However, removing a level of bureaucracy????

Since when did any government remove bureaucracy? For starters, they develop bureaucratic systems for the removal process and from that point on, Parkinson's Law takes over.

If you think of the UK structures that an independent Scotland would wish to set up for themselves, I genuinely reckon it would take a penny in the pound tax rise to cover them. (Shekel in the Groat or whatever..)


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 03:46 AM

That wasn't a 'go' at the Scots - this sense of victimhood is tiring as it's trotted out endlessly. If you bottle it on the currency, we can expect it in perpetuity. The distancing from empire by many nationalist Scots, who wish to appear more like the Irish who suffered under the hands of the British Empire is plain wrong: it's nationalism re-writing history. There is of course a fair amount for Scots to despise the English for, but once again they were willing beneficiaries of empire and it's a mistake to duck the responsibility for it. The English know this at least (and are reminded often enough).

Part of the problem for the English are the feelings of confusion and guilt that are felt by so many people regarding our role in Empire. That is one of the reasons English nationalism remains in the hands of right-wing boors whom still think we should be 'great' again. Of course, the real strength of the Empire were the ordinary folk whose backs were broken building and maintaining it, not the political, business and aristocratic classes making the decisions and running the show.

My original premise was what is needed is a bit of brutal honesty from us all, for the sake or the ordinary working folk of our islands. We need to remember people like us started unions and co-operatives, organised ourselves to fight the injustices the ruling classes imposed upon us and often died or were deported for our efforts.

The blood of these islands knows no borders. We are all one people and our cultures are all different sides of the same whole, supplemented by the arrival of new people bringing their own unique cultures to add to the mix; it is this strength and love of diversity frightens the establishment and it's why they're happy to have Farage out there, he's one of them through and through but manages to pull of this 'blokey' act that appeals especially to white males of a certain age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 02:52 AM

"I note that this thread is more "Whither Scotland" now."

Though Scotland was at the heart of it from the very first post with the claim that Scots deny their part in empire and prefer to blame the English!! It seems some folk find it hard to talk about England without having a wee go at Scots in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 02:46 AM

"All that independence can do is add some nationalistic 'pride' and a layer of complex bureaucracy to the current situation."

Couldn't it be argued that independence would actually get rid of a layer of bureaucracy for Scotland?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 14 - 09:27 PM

"whither" is only a political/social term.

No matter what Scotland does... or even Wales, for that matter.... they will still be right there next door, and people will still shop, visit, sing, ... and complain about each other as before. All that independence can do is add some nationalistic 'pride' and a layer of complex bureaucracy to the current situation.
I guess I see why the idea is being pursued, but all I see for the US is needing to appoint one more ambassador & staff an embassy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:41 PM

I note that this thread is more "Whither Scotland" now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:32 PM

There's nothing inconsistent between left views on economic matters and socially "conservative' views on others. Which I would take is the point akenaten is making. I express no views as to whether he is right about Scotland in that respect. But my impression is that it's a pretty common combination in many places and among many people.

Good to see the Green Party now ahead of the LibDems, in spite of virtually no media attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:01 PM

Jim I believe that the hilarity over his address had nothing to do with where he lived but to do with the controversy over him supposedly registering the wrong address with the electoral commission which some are saying if true could result in a hefty fine.

he car crashed on Radio Scotland today. Saying that there were hundreds of crazy EU rules, many new ones being put in place every month, which he would work to repeal. However when pressed by the interviewer he was unable to give even one specific example. Using the now stock UKIP excuse "oh I'm tired". He then refused to rule out the idea that UKIP may work with the French National Front.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:53 PM

Interesting Jim, never thought an admirer of McDairmid would be have any truck with faux liberalism or political correctness.
Always a rebel in my eyes, but you are the expert.

Perhaps if you actually lived in the Scotland, you might have a better idea of the nature of its people.
Perhaps you are one of the "metropolitan elite"?


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