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BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

GUEST,Rahere 09 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Sep 14 - 12:25 PM
Teribus 09 Sep 14 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,Rahere 09 Sep 14 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 14 - 04:56 AM
Teribus 09 Sep 14 - 04:09 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM
bobad 08 Sep 14 - 01:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 14 - 05:59 AM
mayomick 05 Sep 14 - 06:45 AM
mayomick 05 Sep 14 - 05:47 AM
mayomick 05 Sep 14 - 05:40 AM
Teribus 05 Sep 14 - 02:51 AM
GUEST 04 Sep 14 - 06:49 PM
akenaton 04 Sep 14 - 06:26 PM
mayomick 04 Sep 14 - 05:44 PM
GUEST 04 Sep 14 - 05:31 PM
Greg F. 04 Sep 14 - 02:24 PM
bobad 04 Sep 14 - 01:22 PM
Teribus 04 Sep 14 - 02:50 AM
mayomick 03 Sep 14 - 04:45 PM
mayomick 03 Sep 14 - 03:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 14 - 01:41 PM
Teribus 03 Sep 14 - 08:57 AM
akenaton 03 Sep 14 - 06:39 AM
Teribus 03 Sep 14 - 05:13 AM
mayomick 02 Sep 14 - 06:05 AM
Teribus 02 Sep 14 - 02:08 AM
Greg F. 01 Sep 14 - 09:04 PM
GUEST 01 Sep 14 - 03:34 PM
mayomick 01 Sep 14 - 02:54 PM
mayomick 01 Sep 14 - 01:33 PM
mayomick 01 Sep 14 - 01:32 PM
mayomick 01 Sep 14 - 12:52 PM
robomatic 01 Sep 14 - 11:28 AM
Greg F. 01 Sep 14 - 08:57 AM
Teribus 01 Sep 14 - 08:03 AM
Leadbelly 31 Aug 14 - 03:39 PM
akenaton 31 Aug 14 - 05:32 AM
mayomick 31 Aug 14 - 04:44 AM
Acorn4 30 Aug 14 - 02:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM
bobad 30 Aug 14 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,hw 29 Aug 14 - 11:11 AM
bobad 29 Aug 14 - 09:38 AM
mayomick 29 Aug 14 - 08:02 AM
mayomick 29 Aug 14 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Rahere 29 Aug 14 - 07:32 AM
Leadbelly 29 Aug 14 - 07:11 AM
mayomick 29 Aug 14 - 07:01 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM

Well, if high energy objects are not shrapnel, then they must be unidentified flying objects. Occam's Razor rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 12:25 PM

The report uses the phrase "high energy objects" which struck the plane and caused it to "break apart in mid-air."
As noted by Teribus and others, this is consistent with the explosion of a surface-to-air missile; there are no machine gun bullet penetrations.

Dutch officials have launched a "criminal investigation" and hope to file charges in a Dutch court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 07:54 AM

"Interim report now out: it was hit by shrapnel from outside. It was not hit by machine-gun fire, which some of the Russian apologists here have claimed. There is no explanation for the origin of the shrapnel, but there is little doubt but that it was from the explosion of a surface-to-air missile, as already concluded."

Perhaps now mayomick will re-enter the discussion with some sort of credible explanation for these heavy machine gun bullet holes found by the Russians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 05:11 AM

Interim report now out: it was hit by shrapnel from outside. It was not hit by machine-gun fire, which some of the Russian apologists here have claimed. There is no explanation for the origin of the shrapnel, but there is little doubt but that it was from the explosion of a surface-to-air missile, as already concluded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:56 AM

Blame will not be attributed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:09 AM

Preliminary Interim Report due to be issued to day with Full Report due sometime next year.

This will state what caused the crash.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM

A news story today on the BBC, CTV, etc. But really just more verification of the use of the Buk missile system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 01:31 PM

"New evidence has been found that shows the Buk missile system that was used to shoot down MH17 on the 17th of July came from Russia, and was most likely operated by Russian soldiers. Using videos posted by locals in Russia's Belgorod region back in June it has been possible to identify the Buk missile launcher seen in Ukraine on July 17th as part of a convoy of Buk missile launchers. It has also been possible to identify the Russian brigade the Buk is likely to have belonged to, and who may have operated the Buk missile launcher when it was in Ukraine."

Bellingcat


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:59 AM

Drawers cellular!
Not many of us would remember those Mick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:45 AM

sorry re my last comment. I must have seen an old comment from Keith about my gullibility and got my drawers cellular in a twist. Keith must still think he's in jankers. Teribus,ffs tell him it's ok .


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 05:47 AM

Yes, I have acknowledged that , Keith . Where have you been for the last week btw ? I thought I'd put you on jankers


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 05:40 AM

Teribus , the Ukrainian government says the missile was launched by "Russian professionals and coordinated from Russia" .Would it in your opinion be reasonable to assume that whoever shot MH17 down would have known by the plane's close proximity to the Russian border and by its height and trajectory , that it would be flying over Russian airspace within a minute or so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 02:51 AM

"In April, the International Civil Aviation Organization warned governments that there was a risk to commercial passenger flights over Ukraine"

Care to name the other parts of the world such warnings are posted for? These tend to be "Cover-your-ass" announcements.

"On 14 June, an Air Force Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft was shot down on approach to Luhansk International Airport; all 49 people on board died.[48] After that incident, on 29 June, Russian news agencies reported that insurgents had gained access to a Buk missile system after having taken control of a Ukrainian air defence base (possibly the former location of the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment [156 zrp] of the Ukrainian Air Force).[49][50][51] On the same day, the Donetsk People's Republic claimed possession of such a system in a since-deleted tweet. .........wiki"

"On approach to" indicates low altitude so MANPADS system probably used

"Russian news agencies reported" - and we all know these to be totally reliable, free from any government influence and totally unbiased - and the band played believe it if you can.

Immediately the "Separatist" claim came in relating to the capture of such systems from the the Ukrainian armed forces the Ministry of Defence in Kiev issued a statement that all their systems were accounted for. A date for when the Tweet about the "captured" BUK systems was deleted would indicate that it was deleted so that the Russians and the "Separatists" could claim that they did not have any system capable of shooting down the airliner. Bit pointless really as the BUK Launcher was spotted on no less than three occasions in the vicinity of where the missile was launched, the launch plume that brought down the airliner was spotted and the jubilant reports of the "confirmed kill" were recorded and those speaking were identified as being a rebel separatist commander located in the area from which the missile had been fired and a serving Military Intelligence Officer in the Russian Army.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 06:49 PM

Ah, so you ARE Mr Spook - I claim my £5.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 06:26 PM

"But don't jump the gun just because you have an agenda."

:0)....That's funny,    Who were the first to "jump the gun", yes that's right, the Ukranian puppet government and its string pullers in the US,UK, and most other NATO countries.

I remember MR Kerry, Hillary the Hawk, Mr Hague and latterly Mr Obama, "jumping the gun" quite spectacularly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 05:44 PM

Ok thanks for that guest. We all knew who did it from the word go, but let's not jump to conclusions nods as good as a wink
Bobad : 1984 wasn't set in Russia , you know?
Teribus
In April, the International Civil Aviation Organization warned governments that there was a risk to commercial passenger flights over Ukraine
On 14 June, an Air Force Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft was shot down on approach to Luhansk International Airport; all 49 people on board died.[48] After that incident, on 29 June, Russian news agencies reported that insurgents had gained access to a Buk missile systemafter having taken control of a Ukrainian air defence base (possibly the former location of the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment [156 zrp] of the Ukrainian Air Force).[49][50][51] On the same day, the Donetsk People's Republic claimed possession of such a system in a since-deleted tweet. .........wiki

According to NBC News: "Pro-Moscow rebels were said to have used a similar system to shoot down a Ukrainian Antonov AN-26 aircraft on Monday." The crash occured four days later, on Thursday .


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 05:31 PM

As things stand, there is no news blackout, just careful work being done - the preliminary Dutch findings are due in a couple of weeks. Of course, that doesn't suit Russia, they were peeing on the results by saying a decent read could have produced a resulty in under three days. That presumes two things: firstly, that there's no need to interpret the results, that raw data is all that's needed, and secondly, that the data was trustworthy in the first place. Given that it had been in the hands of the people suspected of causing the problem in the first place, they almost certainly had to read not just the top write, but the layers under that, to prove the data was contiguous. If it wasn't, then the layers below had to be read, and that takes time.
When you write data to any magnetic record, you leave a field which the next reader can follow. But when you write over it, even erasing it, you don't get rid of it perfectly, you leave sidebands which the data can be reread from. Remove the top signal, you get a weak layer on top - the previous write is still readable, if done slowly and carefully. The third, even harder - but doable. That, I think, is what took the time, the careful check and recheck, and then the interpretation. The full report won't be there until 2017, and that's scientists for you, dotting the "i"s long after the boat has sailed.
What that report says, I have absolutely no idea of. But don't jump the gun just because you have an agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 02:24 PM

More to the point: To understand BooBad, read Orwell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 01:22 PM

To understand Putin read Orwell: Ukraine, Russia and the Big Lie


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 02:50 AM

Now then mayomick care to take a look at the differences in both instances?

Over Eastern Ukraine:
1: No IATA restrictions in force
2: Not suspected that a civilian airliner flying as high as they do would be under threat of attack
3: Not suspected that the "separatists" had the capability to shoot down aircraft at the high flown by civilian airliners {Civilian air traffic routinely flies over Syria, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan - and they have done for decades}
4: The warning mentioned was not made to the world at large but to the Ukrainian Government after the rebels shot down the first Ukrainian military transport aircraft.

Over the Persian Gulf:
1: The warning not to take off was issued by the US whose forces were already involved in action in the area over which the airliner was about to fly
2: The warning was given as weapons systems fully capable of shooting down an aircraft flying an extensive envelope in terms of altitude and speed were engaged and likely to be used {A fully automatic and autonomous USN AEGIS system}
3: The Iranians deliberately ignored a specific warning before the event.

Do you always compare apples to oranges, or do you only do this this when it suits your purposes in order to deflect mayomick?


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 04:45 PM

'We warned you – do not fly in 'our sky'........ The after-crash "triumphant war cry " of Strelkov  – dubbed 'Igor the Terrible' – on Twitter , as reported in the Mail
"The Iranians were advised not to let the aircraft take off on it's flight from Bandar Abbas to Dubai - They ignored that advice". .........Teribus the Terrible , 28 July


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 03:09 PM

I've been re-reading the Daily Mail article of 18 July, Teribus. It really couldn't have been a mistake if the Mail and other Western media reports at the time were accurate . Pentagon experts said that "it was impossible to imagine that the missile could not have been fired without Russian support ". Rear Adm. John Kirby said: 'It strains credulity to think that it could be used by separatists without at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance.'A former commander of Russian Air Force Special Operations Command, a Colonel-General, went further stated in an interview that "the separatists did not have the expertise to operate the BUK launchers, that only Russian personnel could do so."



After shooting the civilian aircraft down with a BUK missile , the terrorist commander , Igor Bezler, who is also a Russian military intelligence officer and commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic " reported back" to a Russian military intelligence officer gleefully bragging about his success . A Ukrainian intelligence officer said it was likely that " the 'direct performers of the terrorist attack' would also have been killed to avoid any witnesses.". And the stupid Russian news agency RIA Novosti reported the crash at 16.13 Moscow time, several minutes before the crash actually happened - at 16.20.I bet the head of RIA Novosti and the production crew got quickly dispatched after their blunder was exposed by the Daily Mail.Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 01:41 PM

What news blackout?
The press has nothing to chew at this time; pieces and victims are still being sought, and the investigation report always is slow in coming out, sometimes after several months. Reports at this time would only be repetition.

Hundreds of specialists would be able to operate the three-part Buk system; it has been in use for over 30 years.

The system was purchased by Syria ($1 billion contract), Venezuela and Ajerbaijan among others, and was demonstrated in shows in Indonesia, Malaysia and Chile as well as Russia. The Buk M2E series can engage 24 targets at one time.

See www.army-technology for a good article on its capabilities;" Buk-M2E air defense missile system, Russia."


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 08:57 AM

The investigation will take time.

The crash site, the wreckage and the remains were heavily compromised as "rebels" dashed in and poured and trampled over it for days before anyone else was allowed near it.

Wait and see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 06:39 AM

If this is the case Teribus, why the news blackout?

The Kiev "govt", Cameron, Holland, Obama, uncle Tom Cobbley and all, were lightning fast in pinning blame on the Russians, before the plane had stopped burning.

Stop pressurising the "bear" or he will bite......I doubt if Mr Putin can be bought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 05:13 AM

Would you agree with the point I made here the day after the crash?


"They say that the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work . If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support - the missiles are guided by a radar station . The rebels couldn't have used BUKs without Russian back-up . If the Russians were involved they would have known that it wasn't a military aircraft."


In short no I would not. But dealing with what you say point by point:

1: "the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work"

Not if you have been previously trained on Russian/Soviet weapons systems as all conscripts attached to Air Defence Regiments kitted out with the BUK weapons system would have been.{Remember this piece of kit has been in service with Warsaw Pact/Soviet/Russian Forces since 1979}

2: "If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support"

Not without the bounds of possibility that the Russians sent "specialists" across the border to operate those systems under "local" control.

3: "the missiles are guided by a radar station"

As normally deployed yes, but all tactical missile weapons systems are fully capable of being operated under "local" control in the event that if anything happens to their main command and control systems the weapons system can provide a reduced operating capability. Had the Russians provided a full system then that would have been easily detected by third parties.

"what of the mistakenly-shot-down-by-rebels explanation offered by Keith and others?"

Oh I am convinced entirely that the airliner WAS shot down by mistake, the Rebels thought that the aircraft they heard but could not see was a Ukrainian military transport aircraft similar to the one they had shot down previously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:05 AM

Teribus Would you agree with the point I made here the day after the crash?


"They say that the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work . If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support - the missiles are guided by a radar station . The rebels couldn't have used BUKs without Russian back-up . If the Russians were involved they would have known that it wasn't a military aircraaft."

There have been several denials of the claim about the "separatist" commander and the Russian Miltary Intelligence Officer . But if you accept that the bragging conversation did take place,
what of the mistakenly-shot-down-by-rebels explanation offered by Keith and others?


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 02:08 AM

"Any recorded conversation between a bragging separatist Commander and a Russian Military Intelligence Officer ,which is said to have taken place within twenty minutes of the plane hitting the ground ,of course need to be investigated." - mayomick

Oh mayomick don't be so coy, both the "separatist" commander and the Russian Miltary Intelligence Officer have been identified, they have names, there have been no denials that the conversation took place, no claims that it was "constructed" by some other party, so there is no "said to have taken place" about it. By the way mayomick as the conversation did take place can you offer any reason why a "Separatist" Commander in Eastern Ukraine should be reporting back to a serving Russian Military Intelligence Officer? Anything possibly to do with "borrowed" Russian military hardware being used? After all that is most certainly how they managed to take over the Crimea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 09:04 PM

the ability to push around, 'bully', his weaker neighbors,

You mean like the U S of A has consistently done since the late 19th Century?


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 03:34 PM

Well, Newport is already in nigh-on lockdown: Putin was careless in bringing this to a head so shortly before a NATO Ministerial, as his policy has now moved from head item on the agenda, to become objective no 1 of the construction of an emergency intervention force. The game of weasel words has ended: he pulled the tail of the tiger once to often and the claws are coming out. The debate as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is not my concern, I simply describe the facts: Putin's bluster about not messing with a nuclear power worked both ways, and it took us straight back to 1974, with the exception that Russia no longer has the buffer states to drain financially.
Of course, Putin's not the man who's paying the bill, but his oligarchs, which may have consequences for him.
There may be no end of bluster from all sides, but unless you are at the table it's just so much hot air. I at least have worked with those doing the planning and they are not warmongers: but sometimes nipping a small problem in the bud preemptss a larger one, the least worst option.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 02:54 PM

Robomatic agrees with the one clearly illogical point that the Russian president made. i.e that war is "unntinkable". Putin is thinking about war,otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned war.So are Western politicians and military planners..


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 01:33 PM

The Russians haven't claimed that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian jets , btw Teribus. They have produced evidence to show that military jets were in close proximity at the time and asked for an explanation . None has been forthcoming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 01:32 PM

the Russians haven't claimed that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian jets , btw Teribus. They have produced evidence to show that military jets were in close proximity at the time and asked for an explanation . None has been forthcoming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 12:52 PM

Yes , and Teribus , perhaps you would care to explain exactly how long ago it was you stopped beating your wife !I can't explain how the atrocity happened and I'm not going to make it all up on the basis of anti-American prejudice . Really if you have any evidence to show that the rebels shot down the plane ,produce it.


Any recorded conversation between a bragging separatist Commander and a Russian Military Intelligence Officer ,which is said to have taken place within twenty minutes of the plane hitting the ground ,of course need to be investigated.The Western media reported a Ukraine intelligence source at the time saying the jet had been brought down not by rebels but by Russian forces on the border. That needs to be thoroughly examined as - as do all claims made by Ukraine's intelligence services.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 11:28 AM

I heard President Putin, say, "We don't want war, war would be unthinkable, but we must show the Western powers that we will not be pushed around"
I'm not surprised Putin said that, but Putin's idea of "not be pushed around" is the ability to push around, 'bully', his weaker neighbors, such as Georgia, Ukraine, and if he continues to get away with fomenting war in lands that share his boundries, the Baltic States.
I agree that war is unthinkable, but Russia is endangering European, thus world stability by playing master of the flea circus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 08:57 AM

Why dobn't YOU explain it for us, T-Bird?


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 08:03 AM

Mayomick perhaps you can tell me exactly how long the Russians and their "Russian Separatists" had sole access to bits of wreckage to put whatever holes they liked into it?

Care to explain how a Ukrainian aircraft shot the civilian airliner down without anyone except the Russians noticing it? Ukrainian Air Force bases and sorties from those bases would have been noted - the launch of the SAM that shot the plane down certainly was, as was the recorded conversation between a Separatist Commander and a Russian Military Intelligence Officer - Now why no similar recording of a fighter pilot talking to his director? I mean none at all - take-off; climb out; vector to target - absolutely nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Leadbelly
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 03:39 PM

akenaton,

thanks for your comment!


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 05:32 AM

The whole "crisis", has its roots in EU and NATO expansion into the Russian sphere of influence.
On TV today, I heard President Putin, say, "We don't want war, war would be unthinkable, but we must show the Western powers that we will not be pushed around"

Seems to me that there are parallels with the Cuban missile crisis here......lessons should have been learned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 04:44 AM

"The people don't want war"
Most people on the planet don't want war between nuclear-armed powers, but as can be seen on this thread, many people seem to be looking for any excuse - or "mistake" as one poster put it- to confront Russia.If you seriously wanted to avoid war you'd be questioning or challenging your own governments' version of what took place on July 17 instead of instantly believing whatever the media instantly tells you was "beyond doubt". World leaders are said to have sleepwalked into war in 1914, nowadays they're wide awake avidly watching Fox News .


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 02:10 PM

Apparently Putin has said that negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon - it knocks all the pieces over then flaps about pretending it's won.

Whatever you make of him at least he'd got a sense of humour!


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM

And what can the U. S. or NATO do? Sanctions have a limited effect.

The next step is military threats and action, and the EU and U. S. aren't going to go that far. The people don't want war. The Ukraine itself can do little.

So Putin will eventually get his corridor to Crimea and perhaps a lot more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 10:00 AM

Re. "invasion"

"The more you hype it, the more you diagnose the severity of the illness, the more you're obligated, either morally, politically or practically, to find a cure," said Aaron David Miller, a foreign policy expert and scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars

"And there's a certain reality here. There's a tendency on the part of this administration to allow its rhetoric to exceed its capacity to deliver," Miller said "We're not going to be able blunt or stop Putin's objectives in eastern Ukraine any more than we could stop the aggrandizement of Crimea."

Elliott Abrams, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, said officials avoid using the word for the same reason the U.S. wouldn't call Egypt's military ouster of former president Mohammed Morsi a coup or why some mass slaughters aren't referred to as genocide.

"Some words have both legal and emotional effects. And in the case of invasion, it's emotional and political," Abrams said.

"I think they don't want to use the word invasion because it makes harder the next question: And what are you going to do about it?"

source: CBC Canada


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 11:11 AM

the sky is falling, the sky is falling, a big chunk just landed in the Gulf of Tonkin


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 09:38 AM

"Russian troops are involved in "direct military operations" inside Ukraine, NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Friday. "Despite Moscow's hollow denials, it is now clear that Russian troops and equipment have illegally crossed the border into eastern and south-eastern Ukraine," he said in a statement. "This is not an isolated action, but part of a dangerous pattern over many months to destabilize Ukraine as a sovereign nation."

NATO Chief Rasmussen: Russian Troops Are Fighting Inside Ukraine


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 08:02 AM

Yes Rahere it's getting complicated - history up for grabs again but this time as farce : Victoria Nuland stumbles into an Alan Furst novel I'm sure most pre-ww2 statesmen would have been able to find Roumania on the map


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:32 AM

I hope the anonymous guest who referred to the people of East Ukraine region being "swine" can access this facebook link:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=418015264938957


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:32 AM

The Russians completed its takeover of Ukraine in 1921 and has never really departed since - the idea of independence when it still had the Russian Black Sea Fleet on its territory is a nonsense.
That is half the problem: where should that fleet go if Ukraine is no longer an option. The first response in this was the Russian incursion into South Ossetia in Georgia in 2008, in response to the French placing Salome Zourabishvili (someone I've worked with in the past, I should declare - her former secretary is a faily friend) as Georgia Foreign Minister in 2005. Part of the rationale of that was to warn Georgia not to get too chummy with the West, as the land occupied is about 5k, from the Oligarchs favourite summer holiday beaches at Sochi, where the Winter Olympics happened. Part of my thinking there was to observe what happened to the Olympic Village, as retasking for the Fleet?
The second option for the Russians was Rostov, on the Don. It has the disadvantage of being on the wrong side of the Kursk Straight into the Sea of Kharkov, adding a third bottleneck to the exit for the Fleet (Istanbul/Dardanelles and Gibraltar being the others).
The third was to move the fleet out into the Med, operating from a port in Syria - whence their support for Assad.

Then, finally, the other concern. This is that Romania is now part of Europe, is protected by the Treaty of Lisbon self-defence commitment, and now has a major US base on its land. That is an even bigger threat to Russia than the outdated missiles in Turkey during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1963, and possibly rules out the Syria option, as having both Turkey and Romania between them and their Fleet is not conducive to happy thoughts about stability of the supply line in the heads of its military High Command. That being said, it is also predicated in the concept of Russia as a quasi-Imperial hegemonic power, which is what this is really about.

So, to claim that this is an invasion of a fully autonomous nation is a bit much, on a pragmatic realpolitik basis. On the other hand, the iron grip on the balls of a Nation which has the theoretical right to self-determination is even more offensive. Perhaps Ukraine should ally itself with Georgia to ensure that if Russia attacks one, it has to deal with the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Leadbelly
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:11 AM

How long is the "sound of silence" concerning the downing of the Malaysian flight going on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:01 AM

even Obama hasn't called it an invasion, Bobad .The evidence certainly points to a Russian incursion , but so long as Western media continues its silence about the downing of the Malaysian flight , its reporting and analysis on the Ukraine crisis lacks credibility - q.v. Keith's referencing of Russian media reports in his previous comment


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