BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix

Subject: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:03 AM

Maybe it's just in the US where there is a different kind of racism than anywhere else I've lived, including (barely) post-Colonial West Africa, but the term "People of Color" is beginning to really, really bother me... The calm assumption that white = normal and anything else = something different bugs me. Can we start using People of Paleness to mean anybody who isn't completely sub-Saharan, black African? After all, that's what all the races are, is various degrees of not-as-black-as-original.

This is partly in response to being accused of Not Supporting The Cause at an anti-racist-cops rally for being unwilling to assume all cops are racist, and saying that any assumption that all individual cops in my city are as racist as some cops in Ferguson, is as bigoted as the assumption by some cops in Ferguson that all "people of color" are criminals.

Apparently it's OK for PoC to tar all people who choose to wear blue with the racist brush, but not OK for the cops to tar all PoC with the criminal brush... if you're a PoC and don't wear blue.

I dislike bigotry. I prefer assuming that you don't know what an individual will be like, rather than assuming that they will be like *your* stereotype of what you think *their* group is, when you feel they have a group to which you feel you don't belong.

I am accused of desiring reason in an unreasonable world, but I really only would prefer it from those capable of reason. *Sigh*. I don't try to pray away a hurricane but I will argue with people who say I am "against them" because I don't support *everything* they say.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 02:11 AM

When one is speaking of differing conditions that affect different races, one might legitimately say something on the order of "People of color in that town experience a different reality than those..."

Hmmmmm. I've changed my mind. I can't think of an occasion when 'people of color' is appropriate.

Thanks, Mrrz.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 02:36 AM

The trouble is, all these euphemisms for racial differences fall into disrepute after a while, as being either too explicit or too euphemistic -- as here. "Black" used to be regarded as too crude, so it had to become "colored" [US spelling], as in the NAACP. But then that was thought of as too prissy by the colored/black community themselves, and "black" became the acceptable usage to them, as in the "Black Power" movement, and at present pertains as the generally accepted term of use. Among some, even that became unacceptably evasive, so you got the truculent reaction of naming a black group defiantly calling themselves "Niggaz With Attitude", which predictably distressed some and inspired and stimulated others.

And so the cycle continues: today's acceptable is tomorrow's just-won't-do, as being too extreme one way or the other. I don't see any permanent acceptability of any term in any direction, I fear. All part, either of the "rich tapestry of life", or of the concept of "original sin", depending which way you look at it.

Innit...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM

I might have expressed it differently, Mrrzy, but I am pretty much with you on this. "People of Color" is a fairly irrelevant discernment.
"People of Reason" seems much more important.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:51 AM

I have a colour (sic) -- sort of a pale pinkish tan. It's nothing to be proud of, in my opinion, or to disparage, except with respect to one's susceptibility to carcinoma.

But i'm being disingenuous. My bad.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 11:13 AM

Because there are more colors than black, "people of color" began in the US quite a few years ago *specifically* as a self-chosen designation to make a contrast with "white people." It covers brown, red, and yellow people too (all of which are the terms preferred by the designated groups, though I suspect "yellow" will soon be supplanted by "East Asian."

Why would one think that "people of color" implies that standard "people" are white? It counterbalances "white people," not "people."

What bugs me is that while "people of color" is a recommended usage, "colored people," which you'd think is exactly equivalent and which was the polite and accepted form in my youth, is now rejected as "racist."

Then consider the convoluted history of "Negro" (which is not synonymous with "person of color").

We still have the highly regarded "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People" and the "United Negro College Fund."

Use these terms in other contexts, however, and brace yourself.

Perhaps someone has surveyed what terms the average American of color considers acceptable or insulting. The spokesmen (oops! "spokespersons") we generally seem to hear from are self-promoting media types.

Nobody said things make sense. Did they?

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 11:20 AM

A person of colo(u)r, for real.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 12:10 PM

Interestingly, in Yoruba, the word "oyinbo" includes all non-Africans and the word (which has escaped me for the moment) for "people" also means all non-oyinbo. But of course there is not the same history of oppression there.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 12:24 PM

Nonliterate societies very often call themselves "The People" and everybody else "the others."

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 12:26 PM

Wogs, perhaps, as I've heard in British Isles?

I agree with Charmion. I've never see anyone without color -- they'd be invisible.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 12:41 PM

I was in a university chapter of the NAACP in Kansas in 1964-65 and watched/listened to the 'colored'/black/Negro...etc. members argue intensely among themselves about what they ought to be called.

I stayed out of it.

The debate included complaints that "African American" was too long and didn't really cover all 'people of that general color', and that 'Black' wasn't really accurate, and that 'Negro' was loaded and and too easy to mispronounce...etc. What they called each other was... 'interesting'.

The appropriateness of any term is dependent on who is using it in what context and with what intent.... but too many want to pin down one term or another as THE one, and can't be bothered to analyze context.

I agree that People of Color is awkward and stilted for most situations, but I have seen times when it exactly covered the situation.

I 'tend' to favor Black & White for informal use when only the two ethnic groups are involved, but African American for formal occasions... and sometimes I just avoid using a term...

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 12:45 PM

I "never"use this term, nor any term or word when refering to groups of people that I understand would have a negative connotation. And, yes, I frequently call people to task when they use similar words or terms.

In my community, the term would be considered offensive, and it is rarely heard.


Amazingly, it was not until a few years ago that I camevto know that the word Eskimo is considered offensive to some of the nortnern peoples. I was very embarassed when I used it, and was advised of this-I thanked the person for letting me know. (I really don't know how that one escaped me).

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 12:59 PM

So are the words "squaw" and "papoose."

"Chink Peak" out here has been re-named "Chinese Peak" even though the Chinese guy who used to own it and who is buried on it called it "Chink Peak" (there's a pavilion in a local park named for him). The land ended up in the hands of USFS and they changed the name.

As a chap said to once, "Please don't call be a 'Native American.' Anyone born here is that. Call me an Indian or better, a Potawatomi. Better yet, call me Don, because that's my name."

Has anyone ever heard if there's been a flap over Conrad's novel, "The Nigger of the Narcissus"?

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:05 PM

a self-chosen designation to make a contrast with "white people."

I suspect that as long as the dominant (racist?) white culture persists in imposing on these people a status as an (inferior?) group apart that persons of color will want to make that contrast.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:08 PM

I am reminded by a post above of the well-meaning American journalist who said to the visiting President of the Republic of South Africa, "As an African American, Mr Mandela, what do you think of...?"

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:34 PM

I recall that in my birth community, where no blacks resided, folks commonly calledc young devious kids pikininis or buggers. I dont believe there was offense intended - but things have changed and people now know better. There was also a word for brazil nuts, using the "n" word that is no longer used. Local lobster fishermen used to call their smooth black steel trap haulers the "n" head- thankfully, the term is never heard any more.

Below are some local First Nations terms, which may differ from those used in the USA.
Canadian terms 

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:41 PM

"Why would one think that "people of color" implies that standard "people" are white? It counterbalances "white people," not "people."

Because it marks everybody-who-isn't-white as being in one category, and whites in the other, unmarked one; the impression is People are white, people *of color* are need to be specified because they aren't, quite, people.

I'm wouldn't start calling myself Native American, though I probably have more Cherokee than some of my fellow-citizens have African...

Oddly enough, as a kid, I wasn't American, I was European, as in, the Europeans among us tonight are from the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:44 PM

A better idea how about just people. I don't classify my fishing friends as black or asian or anything else. They don't classify me as white. I call them my fishing buddies as they do me.. People is a great term

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:50 PM

I worked with this man Donald Nam-Ki-K'am Wewenis in 1970, at the plant referred to in the obit., though I never heard his tribal name. He and a fellow Kickapoo, Virgil, used to use "Indian humor" to tease other workers, twisting prejudicial remarks into appeasing funny stories. Don & Virgil were so good at this that they won over folks who had stereotypes embedded in their language & thoughts. They were also excellent workers & the best fork-lift drivers in 7 counties.

I wish I could tell the world, using their examples, what ethnic differences were really all about.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 02:30 PM

Is a white South African citizen of the U. S. an African American?

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 02:33 PM

You mean a white   South African citizen of the U. S? *grin*... I suppose so.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 02:36 PM

It all depends on what you mean by "is."

And word games (what we're playing here, no matter how significant they may seem to many) quickly become a waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST,Fl!p Breskin
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 02:47 PM

I've been preferring the term Global Majority...

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:32 PM

I fall within three of the categories referred to above:

Although my line of descent on both sides of the family is
from one and another (and another and another, counting back generation by generation) part of Germany . . .

I am native American, inasmuch as I was born and raised
in Minnesota.
and
I am African American, in the sense that EVERY American is
descended from African forebears, going back to about the
time of "Lucy" and before.
and
I'm a person of color--that is, sort of a mottled pinkish
color.

But none of those categorizations means a diddly-damn about
who I REALLY am.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 04:41 PM

You're native American, but are you Native American?

Both? You may be African American, but are you African American?

> But none of those categorizations means a diddly-damn about
who I REALLY am.

Maybe to you. But ask some Native Americans and African Americans what they think of one of the "others" appropriating their name.

BTW, is "Washington Redskins" really racist?

Depends on which Native Americans you ask.

The better question is, how many were angered by the name until they heard they were supposed to be?

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:23 PM

In an Anthropology class at the University of Washington some years ago, I was told that "Race" is a sort of cobbled up concept that doesn't really mean a helluva lot.

I'm a person of color if you regard a sort of a sallow, pinky-beige skin "color." My ancestors came from the Northern climes—my father's grandfather came from Scotland and my mother's parents came from Sweden. My skin (inherited from my forbearers) is light, to enable me to absorb as much vitamin D as possible as a result of relatively weak sunlight and long winters.

A person whose ancestors grew up in equatorial climes have dark skin (high melanin content) in order to shield them from ultraviolet rays and a possibility of vitamin D overdose.

Being a person "of color" (a meaningless expression) gives an indication of where most of one's ancestors come from. It is (sorry, pete 7*s) an evolutionary adaptation to the environment one's ancestors lived in.

Same with size and shape of noses. In a cold, dry climate, one needs fairly extensive nasal passages to moisten air before inhaling it into the lungs. In warmer, wetter climates, much less so. Hence, the size and shape of noses.

The epicanthic fold (so-called "slant eyes" of Asians) evolved (there's that word again!) to sheild the eyes from glare off ice and snow. Asians and "Eskimos"—and their descendants, including American "Indians," evolved in the northern climates of Asia (Siberia and such). "Native" Americans crossed from Asia on the ice to what is now Alaska and spread south to populate North and South America. You often see a bit of epicanthic fold in the eyes of Scandinavians. The epicanthic fold has almost disappeared from the eyes of Native Americans, particularly those who have lived for a long time in southern climes.

And if we go back far enough, all our ancestors came from Africa.

Or so I was informed in Anthropology classes….

Don Firth

P. S. Some years ago I worked with a young woman of African-American descent named Rosetta. She was one of the most truly beautiful women I have ever seen—along with being highly intelligent. We often took our coffee breaks together.

What did I call her? "Rosetta." I often wonder where she is now. (Sigh….)

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:33 PM

""Race" is a sort of cobbled up concept that doesn't really mean a helluva lot."

It sure seems to have some type of meaning in some countries, from a social, economic, and legal perspective, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:37 PM

And now I am being told that you can't even BE racist against whites by definition, if you're an American black... haven't we heard this somewhere before?

(Once all the Germans were warlike, and mean / But that couldn't happen again / We taught them a lesson in 1918, and they've hardly bothered us since then...)

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:55 PM

> And now I am being told that you can't even BE racist against whites by definition.

Brings back memories. I heard that back in Black Panther days, around 1969.

The argument was that racism is irrational. So if you hate people of a particular race irrationally, you're a racist.

But if you're black and hate whites, that's perfectly rational. And you're not a racist.

Instead, you're a reasonable, reasoning human being. Since whites hate blacks irrationally, whites are obviously unreasonable and unreasoning. So they're more primitive than reasonable people, who should hate whites for their irrational hatred.

Once again, Humpty wins.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:38 PM

Why don't they listen to themselves? They sound like racist jackasses.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:37 PM

I use the term, "People of the Global Majority" when referring to people of color these days. It's accurate!!!

I have heard the terms, "Melanin-Challenged" and "Melanin-Deprived."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:41 PM

"People of the Global Majority" 

China and/or India?

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: mg
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:59 PM

I don't think all our ancestors came from Africa. Not sure how the Neanderthals developed but it was northern and people in most of Africa do not have their genes, or so I am told. I think I would have a pretty high Neanderthal gene pool... Irish from western Ireland and Basques are said to have the highest..last I heard. But I would think Siberians etc. would be very high, Laplanders etc...who knows. Everyone get tested.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:02 PM

It's a phrase used with specific connotations in specific situations. All the jibber jabber about what things used to be like in My Day or in Days of Yore and in My Country or in That Country I Once Went To, along with all manner of the It's Not Fair and It's Not Logical is unhelpful.

"Person of Color" means "non-White", in a place and in a discussion where "White" is believed to mean something reasonably consistent.

The alternative to "Person of Color" vs. "White" would be "non-White" vs. "White." I think the latter is the one that would truly imply, as Mrrzy said (of the former), white = normal.

The proposed alternatives of either distinguishing people more finely or not distinguishing them at all are not helpful because the distinction between precisely TWO groups is the intention of phrase when and where it is being used.

Perhaps there is another alternative -though I don't see why "we" would be the ones to prescribe it here - but it would have to retain the useful aspects of the current term.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:20 PM

Whilst it is laudible to be able to get into a position where colour makes no difference, out there in the real world discrimination does happen, and it's felt more keenly on the receiving end than those of us who haven't had a back-catalogue of it can truly appreciate. Yet at the same time some people from these communities have become excessively sensitive, seeing racial oppression in any form of criticism, whether it is there or not. Too much political correctness confuses the matter further: and that is what much of this argument is about. It reminds me of the way the Noddy books have been rewritten with Goblins as the baddies. Maybe that's the solution here, to use a term which is utterly unrepresentative of any group identification and therefore without baggage.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:31 PM

Here's a real life example of the phrase "of color".

A few months ago, a social worker wrote a column in my newspaper about prostitution in our town. His last sentence was the sad comment that the typical new prostitute is a 13-year-old girl of color.

When you submit such a column, you are allowed a certain number of words, and your writing must be succinct and have an impact.

She might be African-American, Central American, Asian or a mix of those or a mix of those with white. He's got a word limit, so he said she's 'of color'.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:38 PM

With a little ingenuity, almost any designation can be "shown" to be misleading, patronizing, inaccurate, and therefore "offensive."

That's language for ya. There are bigger things to worry about, like how people are actually treated, regardless of what they're called.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:47 PM

According to everything I've read, the African genesis Homo Erectus spread out over the world and predates the appearance of Neanderthal man by many tens of thousands of years. Neanderthal developed from Homo Erectus and is an offspring thereof.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:22 PM

All of us Americans are mutts and our ancestors married all kinds of people. Anyone using any slurs in our country is probably insulting themselves if they looked back to their own history.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 11:12 PM

Our ancestors DID originate in Africa... here is a general outline

A time-lapse video map(in German, but easy to follow by color

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 11:52 PM

She might be African-American, Central American, Asian or a mix of those or a mix of those with white. He's got a word limit, so he said she's 'of color'.

leeneia, that may be true in that case (I haven't seen the article), but generally someone says that because they are talking about a range of "non-White" people. "Person of Color" is not a term of happenstance or convenience, it is a deliberate usage.

The implication, especially in a social worker's discourse, is that White people in that society are less disadvantaged. You can debate the fine points of whether that is true or not, but that's the distinction that's being made, and it's precisely when someone would want to use the term "person of color." The only other thing they could say that would have those exact same connotations is "non-White"—which because of its negation doesn't sound as good.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:19 AM

The terms "people of color," "person of color," etc., have a rich history:

From The American Gazetteer by Jedediah Morse (Boston: S. Hall [et al.], 1797):

In 1786 the numbers were 16,167 whites; 838 free people of color, and 62,115 negroes.
...
The small provision farms called Conacos, fall generally to the lot of the poorer colonists, or most commonly people of color, or freed people.
...
Before the late revolution, there were in these parishes about 42,000 white people, 44,000 free people of color, and 600,000 slaves.

From A History of Methodism in Alabama by Anson West (Nashville: Anson West, 1803), page 598:

In the list of the appointments of the Tennessee Conference made November, 1831, and made then for the next year, is found the following:

"Thomas M. King, Missionary to the people of color in Madison and Limestone Counties, North Alabama.
Gilbert D. Taylor, Missionary to the people of color in Franklin and Lawrence Counties, North Alabama."

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: PHJim
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:24 AM

"> And now I am being told that you can't even BE racist against whites by definition.

Brings back memories. I heard that back in Black Panther days, around 1969.

The argument was that racism is irrational. So if you hate people of a particular race irrationally, you're a racist.

But if you're black and hate whites, that's perfectly rational. And you're not a racist.

Instead, you're a reasonable, reasoning human being. Since whites hate blacks irrationally, whites are obviously unreasonable and unreasoning. So they're more primitive than reasonable people, who should hate whites for their irrational hatred.

Once again, Humpty wins."

*********************************************************************
What does this mean? Who told you that you can't be racist against whites?
Why is it perfectly rational for blacks to hate whites and irrational for whites to hate blacks? Please explain this. It makes no sense to me.
Who makes these statements? And how do they justify them? Without further explanation, they just sound like nonsense.
The paragraph before "Once again, Humpty wins," makes the basic assumption that ALL whites hate blacks, therefore blacks are justified hating whites. This is ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:09 AM

The term 'person of color' could be useful in a complicated Where's Waldo poster.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:18 AM

It does seem to me that the term "racism" must imply that the racist is part of the part of the community that has the prevalence of power or approbation.

But the issue is complex. When does the refusal to be prejudiced morph into a foolish refusal to learn from experience?

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:25 AM

Slightly off topic, but this article links slavery to many if todays inequalities. Black certainly is linked to slavery in many former colonial locations. An interesting read.


Where slavery thrived, inequality rules today 

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Airymouse
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 08:34 AM

I offer no solution, but I am irked by "African American". Chris Stringer (Lone Survivor, for example) has established that all humans came from Africa, so if you are American, you are automatically African American. It's just a question of what route your ancestors took to get here.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

IMHO, any designation for any of us other than 'human' is stupid, unnecessary and divisive. As several other people have noted above, my own skin color is light tan...nobody is actually white (albinos are pinkish).

Here in New Mexico, everyone who is not of Latino descent (which is also very complicated) is called an Anglo, regardless of skin tone or ethnicity.

I remember some discussion several years ago about Mr. Obama not actually being 'African-American', even though one parent was African and the other American, because he hadn't gone through 'the African-American Experience'.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 09:45 AM

PHJim, I wasn't making that reasoning up. As I say, it was bandied about in the US 40 years ago by self-styled Black revolutionaries who were frequently in the news. The Black Panthers were the most visible and vocal of these groups. (Their most eloquent leader, convicted rapist Eldridge Cleaver, later became a Mormon and a conservative Republican businessman.)

Fortunately, almost nobody bought the argument that it's impossible for a black person to be a "racist." But it was indeed being made and apparently still is.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 09:57 AM

By the way, "Humpty wins" refers to celebrity egg Humpty Dumpty in "Through the Looking Glass," who said, "When *I* use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more, nor less."

This remark, made by a lunatic in Looking-Glass Land, seems to sum up the intentions of people who give familiar words new meanings just to support their own political programs.

Then they insist that their new definitions are the only "real" and "rational" ones. You can't argue with such people, because they're not interested in your point of view. Not at all.

Humpty Dumpty's offhand comment has become a famous reference in politics and sociology.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 11:50 AM

We are all literally people of some kind of color, but "people of color" was an early code for the racists who consider anything but white as a savage sub class of inferior tribes that are separate from white people. Today's code is "urban", "welfare families", "cultural" etc..


If you tell a child at age 5 and up that THOSE PEOPLE over there are; lazy, dangerous, kill their own kind, godless, poor on purpose, stupid, etc. , you have then given that child the foundation of racism in a future context in which all later learned characteristics of race are compared and contrasted in a biased poisoned mind set.

In other words, teach your children well.
If it takes a decade or more to unlearn foundational early learning, there will be many years of needless suffering on all sides.

When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn.
Some people never learn.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:10 PM

My beautiful answer to Who told me blacks can't be racist against whites has vanished into the ether... so I will attempt to recapture some of that there here: It was first an individual at, but then quite a few of my fellow-citizens on the Facebook thing about, the anti-racist cops / solidarity with Ferguson rally we'd all attended, and at which I had minded the apparent racism with which the organizers were asking us to treat individual police officers we might encounter. I *do* support stopping racist practices and individuals, but I do *not* think that treating all cops as racist pigs is the appropriate approach.

A long discussion of racism followed where I held my stance that for people who call themselves black here to treat whites as an indifferentiated mass of negatively-charged membership was just as racist as what they were complaining the cops were doing to them.

It was repeatedly explained to me that I didn't understand, because I was white and had therefore always been immune to discrimination and was also inherently racist, "how racism worked."

However, I finally and, of course, devilishly, quoted the I Have A Dream speech and said that *my* understanding was that everybody should be judged, not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character, and haven't heard anything back..

(The rest is rant which I didn't put on Facebook.) So hah, run rings round you logically. Never mind my Cherokee ancestry, Holocaust-survivor mother and the killed-by-moslem-terrorists-for-being-thought-a-christian father... sure, immune to prejudice, that's us whities.

En plus, the soi-disant blacks in the conversation are all mixed-race with at least European, African and American (native) ancestry with probably some Asian thrown in, but they don't like to talk about that either... while I at least lived for decades in West Africa where blacks are actually black. And that didn't matter to me, then, when I was a kid. I had to come to the States for college to find out that I wasn't supposed to think of (American) blacks as *people* (like women aren't people either, they are always women, but that is really another thread). Yet the luxury of having a washer-dryer in your house as a standard keeps me living here, but I fight the fight agaist the lack of reason... and fight... and fight... well, argue, argue, argue. I *am* still a pacifist.
Shutting up now,

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:33 PM

Perhaps you already have your answer on the ground, Mrrzy. It may be that the communities concerned aren't prepared to yield their oppressed minority status, the question being why: are they still oppressed, or are they using it to gain advantage? Here in the UK, they are still oppressed: a policeman is on a murder charge for not giving someone with a very similar profile to Michael Brown the opportunity to surrender. As an outsider, it looks very much as though the use of force by the Police is disproportionate, and therefore justifies the oppressed status. Now, it is equally true that the US Police as a whole are heavy-handed, raising the question whether the entire country is an oppressed minority. And that, my friends, is why I have no intention whatsoever of going there: in the UK, we would never accept that level of imposition by the public authority. Indeed, we are starting to get concerned because our Border Agency is being supplemented by FBI, whose norms are not our norms.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:48 PM

Its times like this I really wish Azizi hadn't been driven from this forum by the yahoos.

She was the only voice of a Person of Color crying out in the wilderness.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 09:30 PM

Anybody can visit the States, it's living here that is a pain. I do not discourage tourists, even nonpink ones. We are a great place to visit, and the tourists don't have that look...

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:33 AM

Thank you GUEST, Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:33 PM for your comment which identifies institutionalized (systemic) racism as the reason for the need for collective terms such as "People of Color".

And thanks to Greg F. for the shout out and for his comment of 24 Aug 14 - 01:05 PM that succiently basically makes that same point.

For what it's worth, I agree with and want to thank a very few additional persons on this thread for their comments. However, I won't list them in case I fail to mention someone whose comments I agree with.

Rather then me attempting to explain in my own words why there is a need for the term "People of Color", here's that Wikipedia page in full (with only one of its references:

"Person of color (plural: people of color, persons of color) is a term used primarily in the United States to describe any person who is not white. The term is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups, emphasizing common experiences of racism. People of color was introduced as a preferable replacement to both non-white and minority, which are also inclusive, because it frames the subject positively; non-white defines people in terms of what they are not (white), and minority frequently carries a subordinate connotation.[1] Style guides for writing from American Heritage,[2] the Stanford Graduate School of Business,[3] Mount Holyoke College,[4] recommend the term over these alternatives. It may also be used with other collective categories of people such as students of color, men of color and women of color. Person of color typically refers to individuals of non-European heritage.
History.

Although the term citizens of color was used by Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1963, and other uses date to as early as 1793, people of color did not gain prominence for many years.[7][8] Influenced by radical theorists like Frantz Fanon, racial justice activists in the U.S. began to use the term people of color in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By the late 1980s and early 1990s, it was in wide circulation.[9] Both anti-racist activists and academics sought to move understandings of race beyond the black-white binary then prevalent.[10]

Political significance
According to Stephen Saris, in the United States there are two big racial divides. "First, there is the black-white kind, which is basically anti-black". The second racial divide is the one "between whites and everyone else" with whites being "narrowly construed" and everyone else being called "people of color".[11] Because the term people of color includes vastly different people with only the common distinction of not being white, it draws attention to the fundamental role of racialization in the United States. It acts as "a recognition that certain people are racialized" and serves to emphasize "the importance of coalition" by "making connections between the ways different 'people of color' are racialized."[12] As Joseph Truman explains, the term people of color is attractive because it unites disparate racial and ethnic groups into a larger collective in solidarity with one another.[13]

Furthermore, the term persons of color has been embraced and used to replace the term minority because the term minority could, but not necessarily according to proper context, imply inferiority and disfranchisement.[14] In addition, people of color constitute the majority population in certain U.S. cities, in most countries, and in the world as a whole."

References

1.Jump up ^ Christine Clark, Teja Arboleda (1999). Teacher's Guide for in the Shadow of Race: Growing Up As a Multiethnic, Multicultural, and "Multiracial" American. Routledge. p. 17. "The term People of Color emerged in reaction to the terms "non-White" and "minority." … The term people of color attempts to counter the condescension implied in the other two.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color [retrieved on August 26, 2014)
-snip-
Italics were added by me to highlight those sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 03:04 AM

Also, I want to make a friendly correction to Greg F.'s comment that I was "driven from this forum by the yahoos".

After five years of very active posting on Mudcat, in January 2010 I voluntarily chose to stop actively posting here for reasons/concerns that I shared in a comment in the Multicultural Competence thread.

However, as members clicking on my name can notice, the only year that I completely stopped posting on Mudcat was 2010 after that Jan. comment.

Here's a link to that comment if anyone wants to read it.
   
http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2803849

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM

Azizi, people of color as a phrase does define people by what they are not - white - by calling everybody who isn't white colored as if white weren't a color but all other people have one. That is exactly why I am against it. If we are going to divide people by skin color and put one color in category 1, people (nothing specified about color so assumed to be white), and everybody else in another, people of some kind of color, then I really really think we should call African blacks people, and everybody else should be lumped under People of Paleness. They were first, everybody else has lost melanin somewhere.

I really think that it is a very bad idea to perpetuate the fallacy that white is default and everybody else is marked. I use those terms linguistically, like "horse" has default gender, assumed to be male, "stallion" is marked for maleness, and "mare" is marked for femaleness. "Horse" should not be the equivalent for "white" but for "human" or "person" is my argument.

I *do* understand that white is (becoming?) the default in the US and that makes no sense at all, white should only be the default in Europe, where it actually IS the default. There should be no stereotypical color for Americans, we're all mongrels and should embrace that. And I find it horribly racist, and think that the use of terms like people of color makes it more true. Sapir Whorf and all.

It's time for white people like me to realize that they are NOT the default value for humanity, and have no right to lump all others into a category by skin color that excludes them. Only African blacks have an actual, rational, biological reason to do that.

And I am so very glad that rumors of your departure were premature!

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 12:39 PM

The term in the press most frequently used now is "non-white."

In the news today, it is reported that for the first
time this year, in the U. S., the majority of public school students are non-white.

In 2011, the number of white students had decreased to 52%, Hispanics 24%, leaving blacks at 24%.(National Center for Educational Statistics, April, 2014.

(these figures vary regionally; significantly for the West, Black is 5% and Hispanic 41%, white 405, Asian + Pacific islanders 9%).

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Aug 14 - 10:58 PM

Post I was composing when Mudcat crashed...

If you want a glimpse into the complex problem of 'color as identity', read thru this

high-yellow as a cultural determinant

and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_yellow

Because of my activities in the 1960s, I saw many, many examples of this and other types of social class being determined by color... from both sides of the spectrum.

........

What I wish for is a world where people thought like a woman I knew who worked for awhile as a Head Start field representative who visited homes to help with enrolling children.

She was in the offices one day when someone asked her: "You did an interview with Mrs. 'X' the other day. Is she black?"

Barbara stopped a moment, wrinkled her forehead, thinking... and finally replied, "Oh yes, she is." She simply put racial characteristics lower on her list of important concerns. It's not that she wasn't aware... she just thought about it only when it was relevant. I have tried to emulate that attitude, but it doesn't come automatically like it did to Barbara.... partly because many "people of color" of various hues & shades make their ethnic identity the major aspect of how they present themselves. That is their right & privilege, but it does make it harder (for me) to relate to them as neutrally as possible.

There was a friend of mine who I knew first in high school, then in college and in the political area as a candidate for State Senate in Kansas. He was a tall, quite handsome fellow by any standards, but obviously a 'medium-dark' guy who, in 1960 Kansas would be called 'black'.... but we had never ever discussed race in all the years I knew him.
When I made a trip to Mississippi on a voter registration campaign, the local paper had a small story about it. Andy came up to me and said, "Hey Bill, I see you went to Mississippi. Better you than me- I wouldn't have lasted 2 days down there. I would have whistled at some white girl, and it would have all been over!"
We kinda laughed... but it stuck with me as a prime example of how some people must daily 'think' about what image and class they with to identify with.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:32 AM

However, since my ealier posting, the UK has had a bucketload of shit hit the fan.
Because the local authorities in Rotherham, a medium-sized town west of Sheffield, were afraid of being accused of racism, a culture of active child abuse by members of the Muslim community involving an estimated 1400 children became entrenched, and continues. The failure of the community to police itself is being seen with the uttermost gravity, not least because of the concern that if they prioritise their group identity in the face of child abuse, what will they do when faced with jehadism? True, the wider Muslim community is starting to talk about exporting peace to the Middle East, and that far outweighs the local concern, but none the less all that it takes for a bomber to succeed is for one small group to camouflage him.

But that is beyond our pragmatic reach: we must do what we can to improve things on the ground and then we might make another few steps closer towards the wider goal of being able to say we are a global community. But while we have petty chauvinistic nationalism, and communities afraid to integrate, and dictatorships, it's not likely.

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 10:42 AM

Another story. which I posted in Jan. 2001, regarding how the races view each other:

....I was talking to a friend in Kansas about the situation, and wondering how men could be so mean etc., to allow an entire race to be subjugated...so HE told me about his grandfather......seems the old man was a farmer in Oklahoma, and had black field hands working for him, and had a reputation of being 'too' good to them, giving them decent pay and extra consideration. So...when the civil rights noise started, some neighbors were talking to Mac's grandfather about how to deal with 'uppity' blacks who had the temerity to want to vote and ride in the front of the bus, etc.

"I suppose you are all for givin' 'em equal rights and such", one of the guys said sarcastically to the old man.

"Nope", he replied, "I think we should keep things just like they are."

"Well!", said the questioner, "I thought you were a liberal do-gooder...so you agree with the rest of us, huh? I'm glad to hear you don't want the damn N*****S getting too uppity, and........."

At this the old man stopped him..."No, you don't understand. It ain't like I don't think they've been treated unfairly, I just don't want to change things."

"Well, why not?"

"It's simple," said the old man," If somebody had stood on my neck for 300 years, and then stepped back and said,"OK, you can get up now", I know what'd be the first thing I'd do when I got up!"

...it is a rare man who sees that view of the issue...and to this day, it makes me wonder how close to the truth he was.....

Subject: RE: BS: The term People of Color - Let's Nix
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:56 PM

I am reminded of the famous painting "High Yaller" by Reginald Marsh, whose publication in LIFE magazine brought the idea to the nation's attention.

In Caribbean countries, lighter skin color is afforded higher status.
In Mexico, a Spaniard may do business with another Mexican with pronounced Indian admixture but would never invite him into their home.

Digression- Skin-lighteners are used across Central Africa (I think Richard Bridge started a thread on this a while ago).