BS: Conspiracy theories

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 11:21 AM

I tend to believe fishmongers on matters of plaice for that matter, but watch out Keith; just because it says Andrews Liver Salts on the sides of buses doesn't mean they stop at every shit house.

Usually, people alter their perspective in the light of fresh evidence, not a plea from a government fed up of military leaders being seen to be not fit for purpose when they prefer them to be infallible.

Like I said, the timing seemed rather conveniently around the time the forces could now be sued for failing to too look after their employees in the same way as any other employer. We can't have their historical reputation being dragged out in every claim now can we? Far better that they weren't incompetent, arrogant, indifferent, callous butchers after all....

In any event, helps us focus on Johnny Foreigner as the only culprits....

ZZZZZ

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 09:02 AM

It is true that I believe historians even over you Musket on matters of History.
I doubt there is really a dark conspiracy going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 06:22 AM

I doubt historians need to collude and plan whilst ever there are thick cunts willing to believe bollocks eh Keith?




Read faster than that please, dear reader, I can't see this post lasting too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:10 AM

""The Sci-Fi Writers' War74336017They predicted and possibly inspired the conflict in the Ukraine, and now they're fighting it.""


Berezin: War 2010: The Ukrainian Front and War 2011: Against NATO.  

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 04:54 AM

Are all British Historians colluding in a plot to suppress the truth about WW1?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 09:09 PM

NASA is claimed to be hiding the truth... a conspiracy among "those who know 'the truth'", I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 08:30 PM

I fail to see it as a conspiracy. Theory: one of many I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 08:16 PM

Didn't take long for a new conspiracy theory to develop- actually, several

Comet is really alien contact

Makes one wonder...

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 09:51 PM

If you want to see his privates, I know where they are
I know where they are, I know where they are
If you want to see his privates, I know where they are
Hanging on the old barbed wire.

(Sorry, couldn't help it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:52 PM

And that was me. Just call me Nicholas.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,...underpant elastic from fence...
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:50 PM

God knows how that happened, but don't delete as you'll ruin the moment...


What's a " true atheist" when it's at 'ome?

There are no agnostics. There are lily-livered fence-sitters who need a bit of insurance and there are people who don't give a damn. I despise the former and applaud the latter. The former do not deserve to be legitimised by the term "agnostic." The latter don't mind whether you call them agnostic or even Mickey Mouse. That's healthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:49 PM

Should we call the "tighty-white" 911 line for you Mr. Shaw? Or, would you prefer we send over some rusty wire cutters, to lower your sorry ass down?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw dangling only by underpants e
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:40 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:51 PM

Did you ever learn to think, never mind text?

You see, you work on the basis we are all superstitious but some decide not to be. Whilst some of us were fortunate enough to be brought up without being abused. We weren't forced to believe in nonsense from the outset.

No such thing as an atheist. Just different levels of imagination.

Keep praying though. You never know eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:39 PM

well, musket, the intelligent reply coming from you.....even the jibe, as I have never bothered to learn how to text !.
mind you, shimrods post did make me laugh, especially as I was reading a science mag article today....by an atheist [!}, that there aren't really any true atheists !......catching up with the bible ! , though of course an evolutionary spin was given as the explanation

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:22 AM

I'd advise starting with a keypad Nokia, "smart" phone may be a bit advanced....

On a serious level, the scare stories were genuine concerns in that they had to be looked at and investigated. Don't forget, this was a time, only fifteen years ago, where superstition mean't people thought mobile phones in general use, as opposed to faulty, could interfere with hospital equipment, light petrol vapour on the forecourt.

Using their cue from research looking over twenty years of children living in houses under electricity pylons, The Dept of Health accepted a report from Kings that said no evidence supports an issue regarding the phones themselves.

However, a couple of points to ponder;

Hospitals have somewhat reluctantly freed up mobile use, with ongoing concerns over peace and quiet for others. No different from trains but could be 24/7 annoyance! Bear in mind that clinical staff have carried bleepers for years and hospitals with tall buildings have made good money out of hosting mobile masts on their roof.

Before looking at random sparking (loose battery normally) don't forget many people get a shock when touching a car they just got out of. I'd ban nylon clothing before getting around to phones...

Mobile phones affecting children's' development? They certainly stifle social interaction and the need to get out and physically play, a key ingredient in any animal's development. The use rather than the technology methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:13 AM

It was not exactly a health scare, pete. The way I heard it is that it could cure excess religiosity. Even die-hard religious fundamentalists have woken up after a days texting to find that they had mysteriously turned into atheists! Just a rumour mind - but if I were you, I'd go easy on smartphone use!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:02 PM

wasn't there supposed to be some health scare from excessive mobile use , or did that get remedied. for better or [probably] worse, though, seems to be firmly entrenched in the culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 04:52 PM

I share your pain, Shimrod. I would not have appreciated that situation at all. My point is just that if you don't understand what is being said, however loud and obnoxious it may be, you won't remember it. And the content is likely to be even more annoying than the volume.

Two years and one month ago, I was riding one of the Metro busses to a remote suburb. It was a 2.5 hour ride. About 45 minutes from the end, a young woman, who was talking on her phone, got on. She spoke in a loud monotone, and was describing, in great detail, the work she had just finished, which was cleaning an office building. She interrupted herself at regular intervals to read the name of each street that we crossed.

I don't treasure that memory, but it sticks with me, because I understood what she was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 02:59 AM

Yes, yes. But these days, you don't need yellow pages to find a carpenter. Just google map one near your location.

What was that song again?

"If I were a carpenter
I'd screw you to the bed"

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:46 PM

""What archeology has confirmed the bible pete?""

I can confirm it. I was recently in a Motel near Boston and there were two versions in the writing table drawer in the room that I rented. So, there it is-first hand evidence that the Bible exists.And, to confirm, I saw it before I relaxed to an evening drink, not after.

After the drink, I wondered, why do Motel Bibles not have yellow pages? But, I digress.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:27 PM

Err.. What archeology has confirmed the bible pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:12 PM

"if people are going to talk into their cell phones, I prefer that it is in a language that I do not understand."

You wouldn't say that if you'd sat on the 86 bus, from Chorlton to Manchester Piccadilly, the other day listening to some bloke bellowing, at the top of his voice, into his phone, in some obscure sub-continental language! He never knew how close he came to having to have that phone surgically extracted from his rectum! But I'm not prejudiced, I'd happily shove a phone up an Englishman's arse if he's as noisy and as ill-mannered as that bloke!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 05:38 PM

if people are going to talk into their cell phones, I prefer that it is in a language that I do not understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM

""If the Kennedy assassination doesn't interest you, and you've got a few extra years on your hands, you might want to look into the debate over who wrote William Shakespeare's plays.""




Shakespeare 

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:06 PM

"Busses can be kind of dicey. I'd rather have a Christian sit next to me than a drunk or crackhead with a knife, ..."

My experience is that you're more likely to be driven mad by idiots shouting into their mobile phones ... in English or Polish or Croatian or Latvian or Hausa or Somalian or Arabic or Urdu or Bengali or Thai or Korean or Mandarin. Then there's oafs, playing hip-hop (or whatever grotesque noise is fashionable these days) through 'leaky' headphones. I think we are in need of a third 'quiet' deck on buses ...

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 01:33 PM

Busses can be kind of dicey. I'd rather have a Christian sit next to me than a drunk or crackhead with a knife, which, as I understand it, has gotten popular in the UK these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 01:21 PM

I wonder who these doctors of religion are, from whom rob takes such assurance to bolster his unbelief in even the person of Christ . I can certainly cite many whose relevant qualifications apply, who vouch for his historicity. but to be fair, it should be the data/ evidence, not the numbers and authority arguments that count.......or I should be doing the same as the evolutionists , in arguing from that angle.
an argument from silence is hardly conclusive, and that argument assumes that political, secular commentators will make much mention of religious issues. however, reference to Jesus and/or his followers are not so far removed, and are close enough to be challenged at the time. there are more than rob concedes...
pliny the younger, writing to emperor Trajan
the Syrian,mara ben-serapion [british museum]
tacitus
Suetonius in -the life of Claudius.
josephus...there is an incidental ref beside the contested ref.
the Talmud contains hostile ref [ which makes it all the more valuable !]
most of the foregoing if not all, may not be written in Jesus' lifetime here, but might well be closer to the time than many other events and persons that are accepted as historical.....as, for those, there are no philosophical filtering considerations.

there have been many claims that details in the bible were wrong, but then archaeology has confirmed them. it is now known that quirinius held relevant office on two occasions, and so lukes setting seems to be confirmed. wait long enough, and chances are other details will be too.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

I'd shout to the others near her to budge up because Jesus sought the company of prostitutes, or however the story goes...

By the way, don't go blowing the myth too quickly. I get a laugh around Easter time in the folk clubs, doing my "Jesus on a rubber cross" routine.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:30 AM

The other day a lady on the bus asked me I "knew Jesus". When I told her that I had no religious convictions and was, in fact, an agnostic (I'll think about believing when you produce some evidence)she went off to sit elsewhere on the bus. That could be, of course, because I had just farted (although can't recall doing so) but probably because she didn't want to sit next to an 'atheist'. So much for Christian tolerance! God (sic) knows what she would have done if I had been aware of then, and had told her about, Rob Naylor's piece above!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:29 AM

Blessed be the cheesemakers!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 09:35 AM

What a friend we have in Cheeses,
Christ Almighty what a pal . . .

Agent Orange was a conspiracy theory at one time. We all know that was bullshit, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM

A perspective on one, so called, cheese product.

No cheese, cheese products 

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:39 AM

Perhaps now isn't the time to point out my Mr Hubbard comparison wasn't as random as most of my uttering.



WD40? Certainly tastes better than Monteray Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:34 AM

Musket.... :-)

L. Ron Hubbard is a great example of how a complete (and verifiably false, even allowing for the litigous nature of Scientology) mythology can be built of the most insubstantial foundations!

Me, I'm waiting for Ragnarok!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:28 AM

"You tell me what they use spray on cheese for"

Beats me, (I never used it, never saw it). But, consider the multi uses for WD40.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:11 AM

Rob. You'll be telling me next that Middke Earth doesn't exist. Yet if you go into a branch of Games Worshop, they'll probably give you a postcode to put in your satnav. Granted, they don't know much about girlfriends or social skills but Middle Earth? Historians the lot of 'em.

So I take it that even the bit about a bloke called Jesus who didn't like the corruption of the locals who did well under the Romans isn't built on known facts?

Wow.

Even rational people tend to accept the myth was built on documentary evidence of a bloke existing who got cult status after his death, a bit like Ron Hubbard.

So if a Christian tries to tell me anything, I can put my hand up to their face and and say "you lied to me as a child, you twat."

How interesting.....

Oy TC Keith! Any more fairy stories about WW1, Palestine or public health epidemiology you want to retract?!


Ed. You tell me what they use spray on cheese for. I'm as curious as the next fine diner.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM

""Does Walmart sell spray on cheese perchance?""

I am curious as to what you have a desire to spray it on?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 05:20 AM

MusketThere appears to be recorded proof of a political agitator who the local chiefs wanted keeping quiet and the Romans obliged, and this would appear to be the bloke the Jesus myth was built on.

There's actually virtually no recorded proof that the biblical Jesus ever existed. Josephus was at best recounting stories about Jesus that were then circulating (and nobody denies that by AD 90, when Josephus was writing, such stories were circulating) and at worst is a later insertion. Other than that there's a mention in Tacitus, but he is only mentioning something that he has heard...ie, that the current sect called Christians believe that such a person existed and was condemend to death by Pilate. No evidence as such for a historical person.

There are *no* contemporary sources at all which mention Jesus' existence during his supposed lifetime...which is pretty incredible when you consider that the gospels mention him being followed by "innumerable" hordes of people, that his fame was known far and wide, and that he was a thorn in the side of both the Jewish and Roman establishments. Someone like Philo-Judaeus, who was in Jerusalem at the time when Jesus was supposed to be having such an impact on everyone, is totally silent about him, though his writings mention other people of the period who had far less impact than the gospels attribute to Jesus.

Timings and contradictions in the Gospels themselves are rife.Matthew says Jesus was born when Herod was King of Judea. Luke says he was born when Quirinius was Governor of Syria. He could not have been born during a joint period of administration of these two rulers because Herod died in the year 4 B.C and Quirinius didn't become Governor of Syria until ten years later. Any census conducted under Quirinius' rule would have to have occurred at least 10 years after Herod could have arranged for the killing of boy children!

As for Censuses: Roman censuses did NOT require people to return to the towns of their birth, but were enumerated in the towns where they lived and worked. So if Joseph and Mary were living in Nazareth, that's where they would have been assessed for the census, with no need at all to travel to Bethlehem. We also know from surviving Roman documents that the census conducted in 6 AD (10 years after Herod died) was for Judea only, and did not include Galilee.

Neither is there any other extant record that Herod (who died before this census that *didn't* require people to travel away from home) had a large number of boy children slaughtered...something that other writers of the period would surely have remarked on, it being a fairly major thing to occur.

We can go all the way through the gospels like this, finding large amounts of information that is there for effect/ propaganda purposes, but that does not stack up with what we know to be historically or legally accurate (eg Jesus' supposed quotation about the status of a wife divorcing her husband...made at a time when wives *had* no right to initiate a divorce). Or the whole ludicrous legality of the trial, betrayal and execution which mixes up Jewish and Roman legal processes in a way which is almost inconceivable could have really occurred.

The simple truth is that the four Gospels are historically worthless. They abound in contradictions. There is very little in them that can be depended upon as true, while there is much in them that we certainly know to be false, and that other than the Gospels, there is virtually no evidence for the historical existence of this person.

The Talmud has 2 mentions of a "Jeshua": There are to a Jeshua bar Pandira, stoned to death and then hung on a tree at some unspecified date, and to a Jeshua ben Stada, stoned to death and hung on a tree at Lydda sometime between 100AD and 130AD. Niether of these could be the "Jesus" of the gospels.

The only real contemporary evidence for the existence of a historical prophet or "holy" person of the period is the mention in various of the Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls of someone called "The Teacher".

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:29 AM

Does Walmart sell spray on cheese perchance?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:21 PM

Though it might not have been clear, I was making a joke. We do that sometimes when we need a break from being self-righteous. Not often, though. Just to be clear, all of it was a joke. Right down to the Bud.

The part about the gun rack in my truck would have been a joke if I'd actually said it, but I didn't, so it wasn't, and I must have been serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM

As you were. Thanks for that. I did mean Asda. The other one got in my mind because I am picking up some dry cleaning from them later today...

I think it is Sainsburys who deliver our groceries. I call at a Tesco just off the motorway if we need anything in the meantime.

All these different named supermarkets selling the same make of baked beans.. It's a conspiracy I tell you....

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM

Walmart doesn't own Morrisons. An ex-Walmart manager is on the Morrison's team. Walmart owns Asda.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM

Come on pete, quote my whole sentence eh? I said "as in the novel." There appears to be recorded proof of a political agitator who the local chiefs wanted keeping quiet and the Romans obliged, and this would appear to be the bloke the Jesus myth was built on.

The "as in the novel" covers the things that can't really happen, mainly because they were borrowed from earlier mythology in the first place. You can't be the son of anybody other than a man and a woman, with sex taking place, up till about 40 years ago. You can't turn water into wine. You can't tell a dead man to come back to life if he actually was dead. You can say your Dad is a God, only Chris Waddle's kids can say that with conviction. You can't be crucified and come back to life. The Romans didn't fuck about when it came to executions, they were quite good at it.

So.. You can't have Stim's passover plot described as a conspiracy either. Conspiracies in novels have to be in the novel itself, otherwise they are at best commentary and at worst plagiarism.

Stim.. When I said "coming from" did you think I meant geographically? Ok, gave me a chuckle.

(Bud? Tried it once. I'll give it a miss if you don't mind. I like beer though if you have any. Walmart own Morrisons over here. I am sure we can get real food, although I hear they do sell processed corn snacks for poor people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:35 PM

You made little mental links as to where I'm coming from, eh? Glad you figured it out. Next time you're in the neighborhood, drop by. We can head over to Walmart and get some Cheez Wiz. I'll make Nachos. And don't worry, I've got plenty of Bud in the fridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:50 PM

"....as if Jesus actually existed......" says musket.
somehow, I reckon, there must be many more historians that accept his existence, even if not so many accept the details and claims of the bible narrative and testimony.
reference is made to him in secular early sources, or to the church that bears his name. josephus reference to him is often claimed as a later Christian revision/addition, but apart from his works being not the only witness, the references being there, strongly suggest there must have been a Jesus , even were his claims false.
but, if the claims are true, it is doubtful that our philosophically committed skeptics will countenance such a prospect, and if they can convince themselves ,and others, that he did not even exist, they can comfort themselves the more.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:30 PM

thankyou bill, for an intelligent answer to my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 09:32 AM

No. Wanking feels better if you stay in bed.

Mind you, when someone posts aiming at me and can't spell "summarises" I make little mental links as to where they are coming from eh?

This passover plot. How can it be a conspiracy? For that, it has to be a theory regarding how something happened. Based on a book of fairy stories, "happened" is a product of imagination in the first place. It can only be a conspiracy if it is contained in the story. You make it read as if Jesus actually existed, as described in the novel.

Like I said, far better conspiracies laid down as part of the plot in Harry Potter and (I assume) Knobenders and Corrie.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 09:07 AM

That Passover Plot guest was me. You're just making excuses for slacking, Musket. The Passover Plot, if there was one, affected the whole direction of Western Civilization(if there was one).

When you bring up Chairman Mao's Little Red Book, you didn't bother to mention the Communist Conspiracy, more slacking. Do you even bother to get up in the morning?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:48 AM

According to the Canadian journalist, Naomi Klein, in her new book 'This Changes Everything' (2014)about the politics of climate change:

In 2013 in the US alone, the oil and gas industry spent just under $400,000 A DAY (!) lobbying Congress and government officials and doled out a record $73,000,000 in federal campaign and political donations in the 2012 election cycle.

In Canada, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers spoke with government officials 536 times between 2008 and 2012 whilst TransCanada, another fossil fuel corporation spoke 279 times. By contrast The Climate Action Network spoke only 6 times.

Klein suggests that, in the UK, "it has become increasingly difficult to discern where the oil and gas industry ends and the British government begins". She also tells us that at least 50 employees of fossil fuel companies have been placed within government, to work on energy issues in the last 4 years. They are provided free of charge and work for secondments of up to 2 years. In the first year of David Cameron's government, energy industry representatives met with officials from the Department of Energy and Climate Change roughly 11 times more frequently than with green groups.

I don't know about you, but that all sounds like a (non-theoretical) conspiracy to me - and one which, sadly, is a matter of public record. Why do we let them get away with it?