Origins: Barbara Allen

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 15 - 03:18 PM

Richie,
This is from the BL ms which of course Child had a transcript of. If it's in Peter's handwriting then Harvard must have obtained a photo-copy. If it's the original transcription Child commissioned (I forget who did it for him but it's well documented) then it won't be in Peter's hand. The date must be much later, certainly after ABNS was published. Dixon used the ms in his publication for the Percy Society Scottish Ballads so it must predate this, but I'd say c1830-1840. As it comes at the beginning of the ms it may be closer to 1830. I've just had a thought, I haven't got a copy of Dixon's volume, but he might have included Peter's BBA in that.

If you send me a copy I can compare it with Peter's handwriting.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 15 - 03:59 PM

Richie,
I've found a copy of Dixon's 'Traditional Versions of Ancient Ballads'
online, but it does not contain BBA. However, the lengthy and very different versions of the 17 ballads from the BL ms have Peter's signature all over them. No wonder Child chose not to include them.

What would be really interesting is if any of Peter's verses are the earliest appearance of those verses later found in oral tradition. If Dixon didn't print it then it's hard to see how these verses could have got into oral tradition unless they already were part of oral tradition or Peter printed them on a broadside.

I must hastily add there are some great versions of folk songs in there and some of them do look genuine. The earliest extant version of The Herring's Head is in there.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 10 May 15 - 05:59 PM

Hi,

Steve Gardham, Jim Brown and Lighter (Jon)- I've emailed a copy of the MS, had some trouble with it and it ended up being an Adobe PDF. Any comments about Buchan's version are welcome. Many of the traditional elements are there, plus at least one other new story line with Sir James Whiteford.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 15 - 06:32 PM

Peter very often included the names of local personalities and well-heeled families. Patronage was very important to him as he had high aspirations and limited income. But he had Scott's lead to follow in this.

Thanks for the copy. It's definitely the transcription Child commissioned from the BL.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:33 AM

Thanks, Richie. There are a number of minor errors that you will certainly catch later. The interesting ones are as follows:

I can't explain what I read as "Streave" (stz. 1., line 4); it may well be "Shreave," as you have it.

Data in the OED suggests that "Shreave" is a conceivable variant of "shrive," which at least makes sense. (Unfortunately, Buchan's spelling is not recorded in the OED.) I an less than confident, however, that that's what Buchan intended.

"Estollin'" is clearly "extollin'." They wrote their "x's" differently then.

19.2: The word is clearly written "eering." I can't explain it.

20.1: "O see ye not yon nine meal-mills."

35.1: "dane her hame"

It is tempting to see the seemingly inexplicable "streave/ shreave" and the equally mysterious "eering" as evidence of garbled words taken at some point from oral tradition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 15 - 12:15 PM

Comments verse by verse.
1. end of 2nd line is dwallin'. The transcriber originally wrote dwalling but crossed out the g. Question is was he copying exactly what Peter had written or was that his own mistake. Similarly end of the first line, it is obvious the transcribe originally wrote born instead of bound and altered it. The same question applies. It is possibly useful to note that when I jotted down the first line for my own notes I had 'In Scarling town where I was bound'. Mind the gap! Something else worth noting. Do any versions from oral tradition use 'bound'?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 15 - 12:25 PM

2.
It's definitely streave but remember this is a transcription and the transcriber may have misread it. The word should mean 'between'. However, my Chambers Scots Dictionary has 'striven' as an adjective meaning 'at variance, on bad terms; not friendly'

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 11 May 15 - 12:28 PM

If the ms is the work of a copyist, then of course "Shreave/ streave" and "eering" may have resulted from misreading rather than from "tradition."

The simplest rationalization for "Shreave/ streave" might be " 'Tween," but it is hard to imagine a copyist getting that wrong.

I still have no suggestion for "eering."

How bad was Buchan's handwriting generally?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 15 - 12:35 PM

Peter's hand was pretty clear actually, not quite as neat as the transcriber. When you look at the content you wouldn't really think too hard about what he's writing. It would be quite in keeping for him to make the odd word up to keep the mystique going. It's pretty obvious he made up a piece to butter up a few acquaintances.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Brown
Date: 11 May 15 - 12:47 PM

Any chance "streave" could result from the copyist misreading "Atween"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:11 PM

Re. 'bound' in v1 -- wouldn't this most likely mean bound as an apprentice?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:16 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:40 PM

eering
Not much help but my Chambers gives 'eer' as a noun meaning colour or tinge, as iron stain on linen, but an equivalent 'ure' has water stains on iron vessels. I'd guess 'shining' If they're hired out as this is what is implied they're going to be lined up in pristine condition ready for hiring out. BUT it's not beyond Peter to throw in something meaningless.

If you've ever been to one of those local dialect meetings where they're all reading out their bits of obscure poetry, they absolutely delight in using the most obscure dialect words to baffle the offcumders.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:21 PM

Hi,

TY Steve for the excellent job editing- and also to those who contributed the edits and comments about some of the words found in the copy of Buchan's MS from the Harvard Library. I've removed posts that deal solely with edits (since I've made them- see transcription above) to make the thread shorter.

I think the last word of first line is 'born' which possibly was edited by the Child transcriber, but it could be 'bound.' I've added a few footnotes below. Any and all corrections are welcome. And TY,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:22 PM

Steve, would Buchan really invent words out whole cloth, particularly a pointless synonym for "between" like "shreave"?

Wouldn't it be as if I were to flegate a made-up word into this sentence? Even if a meaning could be crofitized by the context, it would be a very strange thing to do.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:35 PM

Jon,
Peter was a very strange person. To write all that stuff and then claim it came from oral tradition. You said yourself a compreaffable posting ago 'evidence of garbled words taken from oral tradition'. He was quite craftible with his compositions and recompositions.

Worth reading Walker's bio of PB. I think it's online somewhere. And this was from one of his biggest apologists. Not a happy man generally. He had delusions of grandeur and wanted to be the next Walter Scott.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:45 PM

> wanted to be the next Walter Scott.

And who wouldn't?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:53 PM

Even Walter didn't have it all his own way. Apart from his regrets over what he did to the ballads he nearly had to give up Abbotsford at one point.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 15 - 04:54 PM

Eering!
What's the one place we should have looked first? Child of course!
It is an archaic word for ploughing and occurs in the blackletter broadside version of The Elfin Knight v12 'For thou must eare it with thy horn' and I'm pretty certain that's where Peter will have found it. He had access to early broadsides and frequently used them in his own concoctions. He was taking a leaf out of Dalrymple's book and what he did with Edward.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 11 May 15 - 06:08 PM

When I did a quick scan of Buchans B.A. yesterday three names jumped out at me:---
[1] Whiteford.
[2] Morton]
[3] Ayr.

The Whitefords were an old Ayrshire family. Until the time of Burns their home was the estate of Ballochmyle near Mauchline.      Burns"s song "The Bonnie Lass O Ballochmyle" was composed in honour of a daughter of the Alexander family, the successor owners of Ballochmyle.

The beautiful Miss Morton was one of the ",Belles of Mauchline", celebrated by Burns in his poem of that name.---"There"s Beauty And Fortune To Get Wi Miss Morton".

Ayr is of course the county town of Ayrshire, the home to all the people mentioned above.

It may be pure coincidence but it certainly caught my attention.

Many references are made to the rural folk of Scotland having a knowledge of the works of Burns in a very short time after the publication and being a small country I am sure Buchan would not be behindhand with his knowledge of these works.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 11 May 15 - 06:24 PM

It never occurred to me to check the OED for "ear." Obviously I'm slipping.

It isn't even obsolete regionally. The OED affords a transitive example from Wiltshire in 2004!

Note to the editors: next time include "eer" as a 19th century spelling variant.

> Buchan would not be behindhand with his knowledge of these works.

No, he almost surely would not.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 15 - 06:31 PM

Great stuff, Gutcher!

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:24 AM

Hi,

I'd like to give some final thoughts to a specific variant of Child B, the English broadside of which several variants were mentioned in earlier posts of this thread. It begins:


    In [usually "London"] town, there I was born,

with a second line:

    That's where I got my learning,

or

    [In Scotland was my] dwelling
also
    [there was a fair maid] dwelling.

The second stanza invariably begins:

    I courted her for [seven long years or some period of time]

A note or letter may be sent to Barbra and delivered by his servant or man and she may write back to him before she goes to see him.

Some versions from the British Isles, for example, Granger's 1906, "Barbara Hellen" and Kidson's 1891, "Barbara Allen" (Wardhill), both have Scotland in the first two lines. The Wardhill version begins:

    In Reading town, there I was born,
    In Scotland was my dwelling;
    O, there I courted a pretty fair maid,
    Her name was Barbara Allen.
   
    I courted her for months and years,
    Thinking that I should gain her;
    And I oft times vowed and did declare
    No other man should have her. [Wardhill, 1891]


Sam Harmon's version (North Carolina then Tennessee, supplied by his daughter and also his wife) is very old and may be dated back through family lines to Virginia in the late 1600s:

1. Away down South where I came from
Is where I got my learning.
I fell in love with a pretty little miss,
And her name is Barbery Ellen.

2. I courted her for seven years,
And I asked her if she would marry.
With a bowed down head and a sweet little smile,
She never made no answer. [Sam Harmon pre 1928]

Carl Sandburg's version published in 1927 was collected by Robert Gordon:

1 In London City where I once did dwell,
there's where I got my learning,
I fell in love with a pretty young girl,
her name was Barbra Allen.

2 I courted her six months or more.
Was about to gain her favor;
'Oh wait! oh wait, oh wait!' she said.
'Some young man's gained my favor.'

Edith Fowke collected this version from LaRena Clark in Ontario:

1. In London city where I was born,
There was a fair maid dwelling,
And she had every youthful grace;
Her name was Barb'ra Allen.

2. "I courted her for four long years;
She swore she would not have me.
Then straightway home as I could go,
And like unto a-dying."

Geneva Anderson's F. Version titled "Hard-hearted Barbery Allen" was collected from Mrs. Flora Havens of Binfield, Blount County, Tennessee before 1931:

1. Away low down in London town,
In which three maids were dwelling.
There was but one I call my own,
And that was Barbery Allen.

2. I courted her for seven long years
She said she would not have me,
Poor Willie went home and took sick
And there he lay a-dying."

This country style version was collected from Melvin Winkle in Missouri by Max Hunter in 1969:

1. In London city where I once did dwell
That's where I got my learnin'
I fell in love with a pretty young girl
And her name was Barbra Allen.

2. I courted her fer seven long years
She said, she would not have me,
Straight away home as I could go
And I likened unto dyin'.

If anyone knows any additional versions of this variant type of Child B please post them. I have these additional versions in my collection: Davis C,D,E,I,T,X,Z; Parler C, and Morris C. Comments are welcome. Could this predate the broadside of circa 1690?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST,Gutcher
Date: 12 May 15 - 07:28 AM

I have been wracking my brain to come up with a place local to the Mauchline area that would equate with the "Scarlingtown" given.
Roughly six miles away, a mere hop step and jump to folk who thought nothing of walking fifty miles in a day, we have the Clachan/Estate of Skerrington. Near enough in distance and sound to qualify as a contender.

Verse 34 as given could be compared to the last verse of a ballad collected in Dumfrieshire by Burns :---

For it"s I hae castles and I hae toors
I hae barns and I hae boors
And aa that is mine it shall be thine
For the rownin it in thy apron.

The full ballad can be found as no. 3 on the disc MTDL613 entitled there as "Oor Young Lady".

I am not sure that this ballad appeared in print in the lifetime of Buchan. [O.Y.L.]

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 12 May 15 - 08:53 AM

Hi,

TY Gutcher. Chappell postulated that the original town was Carlisle. Several of the plot lines in Buchan's version are unique; The flirtation with Miss Morton which causes the riff between the lovers; the alternate proposal to Babie by Sir James; and Captain Green's suicide (last stanza). Much has been added.

Curiously, the name Sir James is also found in a version by Almeda Riddle, of Heber Springs, Arkansas:

VERSE 2: Twas all in the merry month of May
Green buds all a swellin';
When young Sir James, on a death bed lay
With love for Barbra Allen.

I've always felt that the lover's name should be John (Sir John, Johnny) or Jimmy (Jemmy) not Willie (William).

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 15 - 09:30 AM

Hello Ritchie
The last Whiteford Of Ballochmyle was a Sir John. If there be any connection with the verses in Buchan his informant must have had a very detailed knowledge of Ayrshire.


The army had a base in Ayr I will see if there is any mention of a Captain Green. If he committed suicide it may have received a mentioned in the papers at the time

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST,Gutcher
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:10 AM

To the East of Skerrington lies the castle of Louden in the parish of the same name and indeed without referring to a map Skerrington may lie on the extreme Western edge of the same parish.

Could Skerrington and Louden have figured in a much older version of B.A. with Buchan or someone having added references from the time of Burns?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:09 PM

I'm sorry but I feel the conjecture here is getting way out of hand in more than one way. It is extremely unlikely that any of these pieces predate 1690 or come anywhere near it. Richie, please present what evidence you have for this theory and then we can discuss it.

Buchan probably read about some incident in a newspaper and decided a few of the facts fitted in with the version of BA he was concocting.
Scarling town surely just derives from 'Scarlet town'!

By all means look for a Captain Green but don't bank on the suicide part.

Let's remember we are dealing with a man who manufactured ballads from bits and pieces from here there and everywhere. Like Scott he tried to include real people's names contemporary to his time and members of families who were likely to buy his books. (In this case it was never published mainly because by then (1830s) his contemporaries and publishers had got wise to him.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Brown
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:44 PM

>Verse 34 as given could be compared to the last verse of a ballad collected in Dumfrieshire by Burns

Also to verse 5 of "Young Bekie" (Child 53C):

Or gin a virgin woud borrow me,
I woud wed her wi a ring;
I'd gi her ha's, I'd gie her bowers,
The bonny towrs o Linne.

(That was certainly available in print by the time of Buchan's MS, in Jamieson's Popular Ballads and Songs, 1806.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 May 15 - 01:50 PM

Thanks for that contribution, Jim, and indeed to all who are contributing here. Echoing Richie's thanks, there are few of us around who have any depth of knowledge of the ballads, and a lively, reasoned discussion like this is always welcome. I ought to add that many of my contributions are my own opinions, often presented without absolute proof, but I have done much of the spadework and I devour any literature that at all relates to the ballads, including manuscripts when I can get at them. My opinions on PB in particular are based on reading all available literature about him and all of his extant output. I am very grateful to Richie for following up this particular production as it is typical of PB's work. Anyone wishing to delve further into this matter would do well to start with reading through all of Child's headnotes as they pertain to all of the collectors, particularly in the first 2 vols of ESPB. In the later volumes he suddenly stops giving opinions on the veracity of the ballads caused I think by having his knuckles rapped by the publishers. Who would want to buy a book full of forgeries?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 12 May 15 - 02:53 PM

Hi,

Steve- I believe that, in general, many of the older ballads arrived in the US and Canada (Newfoundland, Nova Scotia) earlier than they can be documented. Phillips Barry, fond of exaggerating, said "This ballad [The Elfin Knight] seems to have been brought over early and to exist in purely traditional form." He gives a date of c. 1650 with no documentation other than the ballad text itself. Other ballads he says, "Came over with the first settlers." Despite some outlandish statements and claims (he says, for example, Barbara Villiers was the original BA) Barry, a Harvard scholar, is recognized as a leading ballad authority.

I agree that 1690 is a stretch especially for Barbra Allen. When you have a large number of immigrants from the British Isles in the Virginia colony by 1700 (one source gives 100,000 total) you will have the ESPB sung in the colony.

The Hicks family (Samuel Hicks b. circa 1695 in Goochland, VA) left the James River by 1760 for North Carolina and when David Hicks reached Beech Mountain the family remained isolated in the mountains. We can assume that many of their ballad are old and were brought from Virginia.

As far as Barbara Allen in the US there's very little documentation, including the claims of it being popular during the Colonial Period.

I figure Barbara Allen was becoming known in the British Isles during the mid-1600s and that it is predated by Child 74, which I would date as the late 1500s (documented c. 1611).

Assuming the ballad was brought over to the US by the late 1600s seems possible but can't be documented, at least for now. I believe Sam Harmon's Barbara Allen to be one of the older versions, whatever the date. It was known in their family to be the "old version".

Gutcher- As unlikely as it may be (since some of the references are created or have been changed through the folk process), by searching for "real people and places" you might uncover something valuable.

TY all- I've almost finished going through the BA versions I have. So I'll look at a couple more specific versions and try to draw some conclusions.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 12 May 15 - 03:23 PM

> He gives a date of c. 1650 with no documentation other than the ballad text itself.

Harvard or not, a major procedural faux pas if he had no external evidence. And if he had, why not give it?

> Assuming the ballad was brought over to the US by the late 1600s seems possible but can't be documented,

Certainly possible, maybe even likely, but beyond that we can't say. Nor do we know how many singers of it there might have been or how widely it was known. The more singers, the more quickly (by 18th C. standards) it may have spread. The fewer, the less quickly.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:18 PM

Rather paradoxically I am quite suspicious of academic assertions from earlier periods. They often had deadlines to meet and pressure from above as well as internal politics. There are as you might expect some exceptions to this like David C Fowler who openly make their assertions backed up by plenty of examples and evidence. I am not an academic and came to my conclusions re Peter Buchan by looking closely at the actual ballads themselves, before reading widely round the subject. It was only after this I came back and looked minutely through Child's extremely disparaging comments in his headnotes.

You only have to look back at the ridiculous assertions of the likes of Kittredge and Gummere, both Child's pupils, re communal creation, later thrown out by another pupil, Louise Pound, and others. More recently David Buchan's use of Anna Gordon's ballads to present his discredited theory that her ballads demonstrate the presence of oral formulaic theory in 18thc Scotland. It is easy to see now that this is ridiculous when we can study all of her versions side by side in Emily Lyle's excellent book.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Brown
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:30 PM

>Ayr is of course the county town of Ayrshire…

It could just be chance, and it's certainly not enough to build much on, but I can't help noticing how most of the early evidence for Barbara Allan in Scotland points to the south-west. First there is Ramsay's "Sir John Graeme in the west country", which in Scottish terms would mean Ayrshire or thereabouts. Then there is Child C, apparently the earliest Scottish text known to have been recorded from a singer or reciter, collected by Motherwell in Kilbirnie, Ayrshire. And C.K. Sharpe's mention that the peasantry in Annandale sang it, most likely remembering this from his early years in Hoddam Castle, so in the 1780s or 1790s – that's Dumfriesshire, not Ayrshire, but it's still south-west Scotland and a neighbouring county. On the other hand, apparently no early traces in the north-east: it's not in Anna Brown's manuscripts, or in Jamieson, Kinloch, or any of the other north-eastern collectors – with the exception of Buchan, and we now find that his version locates the story in Ayr and introduces Ayrshire family names. (On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence of Barbara Allan in north-east Scottish tradition in the 20th century, and it must have got there somehow…)

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:40 PM

Good points, Jim.

A serious difficulty is drawing valid conclusions from quite limited evidence.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Brown
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:46 PM

> If anyone knows any additional versions of this variant type of Child B please post them.

If you're interested in British Isles versions, there are, for example:

Jessie Murray, recorded at the Edinburgh People's Festival Ceilidh, 1951 (my transcription from the CD "1951 People's Festival Ceilidh", Rounder CD 1786):

1. In Scotland I was born and bred,
In Scotland I was dwelling;
I fell in love with a pretty fair maid,
And her name was Barbara Allen.

2. I courted her for seven long year,
Till I could court no longer;
I fell sick and very sick,
And I sent for Barbara Allen.

3. Barbrie Allen she was set for
To the house where she was dwelling,
And as she drew the curtain back,
"Young man, I think you're dying."

4. "Dying, dear, what do you mean?
One kiss from you will cure me."
"One kiss from me you never shall have,
Though you're dying, dying, dying."

5. He turned his face back to the wa'
And his back tae Barbara Allen:
"Adieu, adieu, my kind friends a',
But be kind to Barbara Allen."

6. "O mother dear, you'll make my bed,
And make it long and narrow;
Since my true lover has died for me,
I will die for him tomorrow."


Lucy Stewart, recorded by Kenneth Goldstein in Aberdeenshire about 1960 (my transcription from the Smithsonian Folkways CD "Lucy Stewart: Traditional Singer from Aberdeenshire, Vol. 1, Child Ballads", FW03519 / FG 3519):

1. In London town where I was born
A young man there was dwelling, O;
He courted a fair young maid,
Whose name was Barbary Allen, O,
Whose name was Barbary Allen, O.

2. He courted her for seven lang years
Till couldnae court her langer, O;
Till he fell sick and very ill,
And he sent for Barbary Allen, O,
He sent for Barbary Allen, O.

3. It's slowly she put on her clothes,
And slowly she came walking, O;
And when she came to his bedside,
"Young man," she says, "you're dying, O,
Young man," she says, "you're dying, O."

4. "O dying, O, I canna be;
One kiss from you would cure me, O."
"One kiss from me you shall not get,
Young man, though you are dying, O,
Young man, though you are dying, O."

5. "O it's look you up at my bed heid,
And see fit you see hinging, O:
A guinea-gold watch and a silver chain,
Gie that tae Barbary Allen, O,
Gie that tae Babie Allen, O,

6. "O look you doun at my bedside,
And see fit you see sitting, O:
A china basin full o tears
That I shed for Barbary Allen, O,
That I shed for Barbary Allen, O."

7. O she hadnae been a mile out o toun
Till she heard the dead bells tolling, O;
And every toll it seemed to say:
"Hard-herted Barbary Allen, O,
Hard-herted Barbary Allen, O."

8. "O mother dear, make me my bed,
And make it long and narrow, O;
My sweetheart died for me today,
But I'll die for him tomorrow, O,
I'll die for him tomorrow, O."


Jimmy Stewart, recorded by Jean Ritchie, Forfar, Angus (Bronson 84.56). Begins:

1. (In) London I was bred and born,
(In) Scotland was my dwellin, O,
I fell in love with a nice young girl
And her name was Barbru Allan, O,
And her name was Barbru Allan, O.

2. I courted her for seven long years;
I could nae court her langer, O,
But I fell sick and very ill
And I sent for Barbru Allan, O,
And I sent for Barbru Allan, O.

Bronson also gives two stanzas (84.94) from Kidson, from Northallerton, Yorkshire:

In Scotland I was born and bred,
O, there it was my dwelling;
I courted there a pretty maid,
O, her name was Barbara Allen.

I courted her in summer time,
I courted her in winter;
For six long years I courted her,
A-thinking I should win her.

and another (84.12) from Cecil Sharp's MSS, recorded 1906 from Jim and Francis Gray, Enmore, (Somerset),which begins:

In Scotland I was born and bred,
In Scotland I was dwelling,
When I young man on his death-bed lay
For the sake of barb'rous Ellen.

This one includes the legacies: gold watch with gold ring and gold chains, basin of blood.

(There may be more examples in Bronson. I've just have the one-volume abridged version.)

I've also come across a version described as being collected from the Brazil family of Gloucester in the 1960s at http://www.springthyme.co.uk/brazil/BarbaryAllen.html . Opening stanza:

In Scotland I was born and bred,
In Scotland was my dwelling;
Till I fell a-courting a pretty maid,
Her name was Barbary Allen.

No stanza about courting for years but there is one where he leaves his cows to her, and also the more normal legacies: gold watch and chain, basin of blood.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:08 PM

Jim,
I think there is something in what you say about the geographical distribution even with the limited evidence. The North East was heavily scoured and had it been there it would have been included. This fact may have had some bearing on why Peter set his version in Ayr.

I'm really looking forward to any findings you have, Richie. You've really grabbed the bull by the horns. Throughout the English-speaking world you couldn't have chosen a more difficult subject, the most collected ballad, in constant print for over 3 centuries.

If you wanted to prove the existence of ballads in America in oral tradition since the 17th century it would have been much easier with a pretty obscure ballad. Certainly it can easily be done with the 18th century. Bramble Briar exists in much fuller and earlier versions in America than anywhere else.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 12 May 15 - 09:36 PM

Hi,

I've been stuck in Arkansas: "Love my maw, love my paw, Love them girls from Arkansaw" with Randolph, Parler (by the way her Ozark collection is awesome - around 30 versions with recordings), Max Hunter and the Wolf (Wolf Collection). Some gems include Parler, version T recorded from Pete Martin of Lincoln, Ark. on November 12, 1950:

She slowly, slowly fixed her hair,
And slowly she approached him,
And all she said when she got there,
Was, "You're in a low condition."

Later he has:

They grew so high, they grew so tall,
They couldn't grow any higher,
They tangled and twisted in a lovelessly knot
That beautiful rose and the briar.

Not sure what a "lovelessly knot" is.

Lighter- Barry has his detractors (see Jim Carroll's post) but he was an important collector in New England and a leading researcher.

Jim Brown- TYVM for the versions. These appear to be a parallel to Child B, the 1690 broadside and they are not found in print, as far as I know. Let's not forget this African-American version published in 1888 which begins:

BOB-REE ALLIN

In London town, whar I was raised,
Dar war a youth a-dwellin',
He fell in love wid a putty fair maid,
Her name 't war Bob-ree Allin.

He co'ted her for seben long years;
She said she would not marry;
Poor Willie went home and war takin' sick,
And ve'y likely died.

He den sen' out his waitin' boy
Wid a note for Bob-ree Allin.
So close, ah, she read, so slow, ah, she walk;
"Go tell him I'm a-comin'."

Steve- There is a lot of bull- no doubt!!!

There is an established Irish tradition (which is also found elsewhere - possibly originating from Ireland) that uses at least one gift stanza (usually gold watch and chain) as well as the "basin of blood" stanza (which extends also to a "tears shed" stanza). Child C has elements as the Buchan version with extended gift stanzas. Jim pointed out Greig's "Bawbie Allan" version, which is, of course, similar to the version MacColl's mother knew.

I'll post some ideas and would welcome some traditional Irish versions. I know more about the US versions from Irish ancestry (see the two versions I posted in this thread) than Irish versions.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Brown
Date: 13 May 15 - 02:52 AM

Sorry, Richie. I've just noriced that the CD notes to "1951 Edinburgh People's Festival Ceilidh" include a transcription of what Jessie Murray sings. I should have looked before posting my own transcription. It's basically the same as mine but with more attention to how she pronounces words ("dwellin" etc., for example, and a few more Scots forms like "coorted"). There may also be a transcription in the CD notes to Lucy Stewart's ballads, but I just have that one on MP3.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Brown
Date: 13 May 15 - 04:47 AM

>A serious difficulty is drawing valid conclusions from quite limited evidence.

Absolutely. And indeed there's not much evidence in the south-west either – Motherwell's manuscript just has a single text (compared with multiple versions of "Jamie Douglas", "Hind Horn", and "Mary Hamilton", and two of "Tam Lin", to name but a few), and the Crawfurd Collection only has one mention in a list of song titles (according to Emily Lyle, who edited the collection, probably a list of songs known to Mary McQueen, the greatest contributor of songs to the collection, a servant in Lochwinnoch, Renfrewshire, not far from Kilbirnie, from a traveller family, who later married a weaver, and emigrated to Canada in 1828). It doesn't add up to much evidence of popularity. As for Sharpe, he may have heard it sung in Annandale with the ships and similar stanzas, but he doesn't say anything about how much it was sung there (if indeed he had any way of knowing) -- and he doesn't include it in "A Ballad Book".

By the way, I'm in no position to take sides in the Peter Buchan debate, and gladly bow to Steve's knowledge of Buchan's working practice, but I just wonder is it possible that the stanzas in Buchan's text with Captain Green, Peg Morton, etc., rather than being his invention, come from some sort of ironic local parody that he had got hold of and clumsily pasted together with bits of one or more traditional versions he had collected?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:44 PM

With PB anything's possible, Jim. He sourced material from a wide range of places, including stories/translations from Scandinavia and the continent. He had a very extensive library as did most of his contemporary collectors, but had to sell it off when he bit off more than he could chew. He would have had copies of the earlier versions, those on broadsides, and the Scots anthologised version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 15 May 15 - 11:19 AM

It's curious that the Scottish versions (Ramsay 1740 and Percy 1765 as well as subsequent print versions such as the Deming broadside; Boston 1829) has the name John Graeme (Graham):

IT was in and about the Martinmas time,
When the green leaves were a falling,
That Sir John Graeme in the west country
Fell in love with Barbara Allan.

while the c. 1844 Forget-Me-Not Songster has Sir James Graham and also has the seven ships stanza (Buchan, Child C-tho not defined). Is it possible that the version from Annadale that Sharpe mentioned with seven ships is, in fact Buchan's version? Could Sharpe have seen the MS through Buchan or Motherwell? Buchan's MS also has a Sir James (but it's Sir James Whiteford).

What puzzles me is how the editor of the Forget-Me-Not Songster got the seven ships stanza in the US in 1844. Does this mean there is an unknown print version from the British Isles resembling the Songster version? Or that it was a traditional version captured in print from an unknown source?

The only other puzzling this is Percy's English" version Child Bd, which has the ending stanza,

Farewell, she sayd, ye virgins all,
And shun the fault I fell in:
Henceforth take warning by the fall
Of cruel Barbara Allen.

which has entered tradition- either through print (Percy) or because Percy took it from tradition and it existed in tradition and has survived and appears in a dozen or so version collected since then.

Comments?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 12:11 PM

"With PB anything's possible"
One wonders why the Peter Buchan controversy remains controversial with such incontrovertible evidence - sounds like someone's made up their mind on this one.
Seem to remember similar discussions on whether or not 'the folk' made their own songs or whether they were made for them by a mysterious school of anonymous poet because they were "too busy earning a living"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 15 - 03:09 PM

Sharpe and many others had access to PB's later (BL) manuscript as it was passed around from pillar to post. He was trying to sell it but nobody would buy it. It has lots of material in it but mostly made up of items copied from ABNS, stall copies, local pieces and his own poetry. Just as PB had access to other mss at the time and lots of PB's pieces were entered in Motherwell's Ms.

Jim, if you haven't studied the material I don't know how you can possibly snipe like this.

Richie, some of your puzzles are impossible to answer. Many printed versions did not survive, just as many oral versions did not survive. The best way of reaching any conclusions is to compare as many versions as possible which is what you are doing. I'll have another look at the FMNS version but it is mostly made up of bits from other ballads anyway. As you said yourself it had little if any influence.
It could easily have been put together with bits from more than one version as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 03:29 PM

"Jim, if you haven't studied the material I don't know how you can possibly snipe like this."
I've read enough on Buchan - recently added the Walker book to this to know that ot remins a controversy.
Yoy are entitled to your view as I am to mine - but IT REMAINS A CONTROVERSY and until that ceases to be the case, it is somewhat disingenupus to make definitive statements.
Are you suggesting that you have access to material others don't - if not, why is it still a controversy?
Sorry Steve- it really isn't my intention to snipe, but if people make definitive statements on things that are unknown (and possibly unknowable) then we cease to look for the answers - as with your 90 percent + of all folk songs.....
We really have been there and done that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 15 - 03:55 PM

Yes, Jim, I am saying I have access to other material which I have gone to great lengths to procure. I have read closely both sets of manuscripts and compared their contents with many other collections. If you have Walker then you will know he admits many of Peter's faults and he is Peter's greatest apologist. The only question on the table is to what extent did he interfere with the material. I'm afraid I come out very much on Child's side, having studied ALL of the extant material closely.

'We really have been there and done that'. Yes we did, Jim, and you really didn't come out of that well.

Look at the date on the Walker book. Are you really saying a book published at that time has any bearing on whether there is still a controversy or not? I suggest you look at the last page of Fowler as well. After all you are the one who said I ought to read it, and I'm still in your debt for that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 04:36 PM

No Steve - one of the questions is what he did that no other anthologist/collector did in the 19th century, when authenticity was not an issue and we really have no great idea what traditional singers were and were not giving
I've said this often enough, but any slight knowledge we have dtes back only a far as the end of the 19th century, and that is little enough in the general scope of things "a hill of beans", in fact
I've become a little tired of definitive statements on unknowables.
If Buchan is no longer a "controversy" why aren't we all aware of that fact, or do we have to become members of something?
As I said before (and will say again) the same applies to definitive statements on print/oral origins.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:32 PM

Here we go, Jim
Couple of relevant questions for you.

What is your opinion on the Buchan version of Barbara Allen above?

Who is currently stating that Peter Buchan didn't heavily doctor the ballads he published in ABNS and indeed those in both of his manuscripts?

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 15 - 04:16 AM

Steve - I have never at any time suggested that Buchan didn't doctor songs - as did virtually all of his contemporaries.
I see no evidence that he was doing anything that his contemporaries weren't - the 'ethics' of what they were doing was not an issue - yet you single him out as 'dishonest' - that to me appears unfair.
You say you have information that solves the Buchan 'enigma' - if you produce it, it will no longer be the enigma that it is at present.
We really did get off on the wrong foot in all this.
Questioning your "ninety percent plus" claim on the print/oral origins of our folksongs, instead of producing proof of your definitive statements, you accused me of being a naive romantic
When I pressed my case, instead of producing proof, you gave me character references - how many people agreed with you and respected your theory (which is what it is).
When I pinned you down by asking you to show how you could prove oral texts hadn't existed before printed ones, you were unable to and you patted me the head with "I will have to watch what I say in future" or some such dismissiveness.
One of my main interests in folksongs is in the important role that had within the communities that gave us them to us.
To that end, we've spent over 40 years talking to singers from communities where the singing traditions were still alive or, at least, within the living memories of the people we talked to, and getting their slant on the subject - a much neglected part of collecting.
The conclusion we reached over that time was that rural working man and woman was an instinctive song-maker, well capable of having made our folksongs without the aid of a bunch of hacks whose overall output was, on the whole unsingable
We found that Irish communities made hundreds of local songs, some of which we recorded, but many, many more we missed because they had been forgotten and were only told about.
You shrugged this off as 'old people scribbling poetry in their retirement', or ' the English agricultural worker was far too busy feeding his family to make songs', or 'there is no comparison between what happened in rural England and Ireland'   
We actually spent time with a singer who had his father's traditional songs printed and sold them around the fairs and markets of rural Ireland in the '40s and described the process of his having done so - he told us it was common practice among Travellers - I see no reason not to belive that this has always happened and that this is how our folk songs and ballads songs got into the hands of the hacks.
I see no reason why most of our folk repertoire didn't originate in the communities and were plundered and adapted to be sold.
The fact is, I don't know, nor does anybody, and to suggest that anyone has definitive answers is to prevent the subject being discussed.      
We really have done the work Steve, we are not the naive romantics you once suggested.
We may well have things arse-about-face with our concl;usions, but they are conclusions arrived at by a lot of hard work and I won't be fobbed off by non-existent definitives that nobody has the right to claim - none of us have definitive answers to these questings - Buchan, song origins..... and if anybody claims they have they will cease being discussed
Sorry about the rant - breakfast awaits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 May 15 - 10:02 AM

No problem, Jim
Hope you enjoyed your breakfast.

I don't really want once again to take over Richie's thread with our differences so if you want to discuss the origins further we must start another thread.

However, the veracity of PB's ballads is very relevant to this thread. Of course they were all at it. The only difference is to what extent each of then went with this literary interference and what claims they made for the material. Motherwell, Jamieson and Scott admitted their interference and regretted it, although they would have done well to have been more specific as to what they contributed. However there is plenty of evidence in the ballads themselves to demonstrate that PB went way over the top and claimed unequivocally that every word came from oral tradition. What is more he never showed any regret for his actions. Once again I repeat, if you want some evidence I suggest you look closely at the ballad above and what Jim B has to say about it. There plenty of other even worse examples if you are interested.