BS: Church V State

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:29 AM

And St. Nonna's at Altarnun , Cornwall. Beautiful Woodwork, much of from the 16th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:30 AM

My point was Steve that the existence of the House itself is the issue to me. The fact that for historical reasons 3% of the seats are guaranteed to the Church of England is secondary. A much bigger proportion are guaranteed places for hereditary peers simply given seats for who their parents were. The rest of the seats are non elected placements made into life peers by the gvt of the day and even several of these would qualify for hereditary seats so it is another way to keep the establishment in. I am against the whole edifice so see the inclusion of a few bishops as neither here nor there. Plus other religions may wish for a guaranteed voice in the House (rather than individuals made into life peers) but would they be willing to have gvt interference over their own institution in return like there is over the CofE?? The CofS historically wasn't prepared to allow that and I suspect others wouldn't be either. I'd say enough with the tinkering around the issue, as Labour did, but go with the likes of the Nats who approve of the abolishing of the non-elected chamber completely and they have a policy of not accepting seats should they be offered unlike the other main parties who scramble for places.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:40 AM

Or rather than 3% it is 26 actual seats! The percentage of course varies.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:45 AM

True. You can see a garden is beautiful without thinking there are fairies living at the bottom of it. When Mrs Musket and her friends are in the ringing chamber giving it some ding dong, you can catch me wandering around, admiring the beauty and fascinated by the history.

Many who are blinkered by irrational superstition make the mental leap to assume that lack of delusion might somehow be to reject the part superstition played in shaping our culture. It's just that people did it, not their imaginary friend.

It says more about their insecurity than it does about rational people.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:52 AM

"It's a talking shop."
A talking shop with the power to block legislation and your description of the church fits thousands of other groups in Britain, from cyclists, to womens' institutes, to Freemasons.... only the others don't have the power of a mystical being to frightens people into believing behind it.
Not in any way a believer, but the most atmospherically beautiful place of worship I've ever been in is here and the most spectacular one is here - (if they ever got rid of that god-awful neon cross!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:53 AM

I remember being in Wells cathedral when an elderly American lady said, very loudly to her partner, "Gee, this sure is old. Must be Victorian."

I just kept quiet. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:09 AM

Have to agree with Jim regarding the Italian Chapel on Orkney, that really is a testament to peoples faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:16 AM

Yup - so much to do, so little time! Hereford's something - then it's out on the trail of the Herefordshire Romanesque, the jewel of which is Kilpeck. First time I went I was expecting Rosslyn style hype - instead I found a few cows in a farmyard & had the place to myself for two hours. Then there's Much Marcle and (gulp!) the Templar church at Garway... The nearest we'll be getting this time is Worcester and Tewkesbury on the way down. The Holy Ghost at Crowcombe is a must for bench-end fans, and I just love St. Mary Magdelene's at Barwick trucked away behind Yeovil. Like I say - so much to do, so little time...

Altarnun! Never been, but always wanted to see the famous FIDDLER whose instrument matches the ones found on the Mary Rose. Nice BAGPIPER too. Note double chanter - one of several prototypes of the Cornish bagpipe...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:50 AM

PS : Wells Cathedral:

Jack Blandiver

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:00 AM

I'm going off half-cock here, but one of my favourite church "insides" is Paddy's Wigwam in Liverpool. The circular layout feels very inclusive (not that I particularly wish to be "included", mind!), and the light coming in through the coloured windows on a sunshiny day is stunning. Not quite so taken with the wacky outside though! Salisbury is stunningly beautiful from outside. I didn't respond quite so positively to the inside, but then I love to let my subjectivity completely take me over on such occasions. The bishop is an old but now long-lost friend of ours. In June we saw the most beautiful little chapel we've ever seen, La Madonna Della Rocca near Taormina in Sicily, with its natural cave ceiling. Absolutely nothing to see from the outside, mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:09 AM

If it's windows you want Steve try the little church in Eyeries on the Beara peninsula in West Cork. Mainly secular and utterly brilliant. Very pretty village and the view from the back window of Causkeys Bar is fantastic.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:32 AM

I love the Wigwam, it excites the modernist in me whilst managing to be quite timeless too. Maybe because it was conceived in the same year I was?? I feel a similar empathy with the wholly secular Civic Centre in Newcastle.

When it comes to windows... there's a little old church in York - All Saints on North Street - which has The Pricke of Conscience window c. 1410. Just there - to wander in off the street and have it all to yourself...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:10 AM

"The translator is a commentator, and every commentator also adds something of himself towards the deepening of the matter, its explanation and emphasis. " ~~ Chaim Nachman Bialik

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:51 AM

"Paddy's Wigwam in Liverpool."
Lost my 'cherry' in the Crypt there just after it opened (hope that doesn't offend too many people).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:51 AM

"Paddy's Wigwam in Liverpool."
Lost my 'cherry' in the Crypt there just after it opened (hope that doesn't offend too many people).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,6.24
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:20 AM

That's unfortunate Jim C.Our Priest took me for a dirty weekend at Walsingham.Least I got a bit of an holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:22 AM

The crypt is an altogether different proposition from the main building I gather, though (as yet) I've never actually been in...

I lost mine in the wee Norman Church of Our Lady in Seaton Delaval.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:51 AM

6.24 it sound like you got a bit more than a holiday!!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:53 AM

Have to say I find the Cathedral a remarkably ugly building
Much prefer Lutyens' original design , bit then again, I always was a traditionalist.
Seem to remember the crypt being totally devoid of the garishness of the main building, but then again, I was a little preoccupied!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:19 AM

Compared to the monstrosity of the Anglican Cathedral it's a wee jewel. One of Liverpool's REAL three graces in my opinion - the other two being the Stanley Dock warehouse (a haunt of Dylan's by the look of it...) and the Tate & Lyle sugar silo...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:31 AM

There's a nice model of the Lutyens' design in the new Museum of Liverpool which is worth a look if ever you're passing...

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/conservation/departments/models/lutyens/

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:38 AM

"Compared to the monstrosity of the Anglican Cathedral"
Don't mind the Anglican Cathedral - straight out of H.P. Lovecraft - and it still isn't finished after 130 years!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:50 AM

If we're talking cathedrals Durham tops the list for me. Stunning way to frighten the masses.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:16 AM

The New World doesn't have the age of churches and cathedrals you're discussing, but it does have some beautiful structures. One U.S. architect, in particular, has a style that he has adapted for various locations to pull the out-of-doors into the building.

Fay Jones was from Arkansas and has built chapels around the US.

In New York City there are churches built at the time of U.S. founding fathers but one that I always enjoy visiting is small in scale but important in American history, mostly because of who is buried in the churchyard. Trinity Church has been on the site, in three different versions, since 1697. The current (third) church was completed in 1846.

This atheist is perfectly happy enjoying the history, art, and architecture of these structures.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:26 AM

"The New World doesn't have the age of churches and cathedrals you're discussing . . ."

I disagree with that statement. The Mayan temples attest to structures being built for religious reasons. Whether the religion passes anyone's litmus test is another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:59 AM

Durham Cathedral's a place close to my heart, but here's a tale.... After the Battle of Neville's Cross (1346) the building was used as POW camp for Scottish soldiers who proceeded to trash the place - burning whatever they could find to keep warm, smashing the heads of statues to heat them in the embers as pass round to keep their hands warm. The evidence of this is there for all to see; not the usual reformation vandalism we're used to weeping over.

Folklore records the prosonors left Prior Castel's famous clock untouched because it bears a prominent thistle. A canny Cathedral guide will point it was more likely because they needed it to know what time it was; a cannier one will tell you it was because the clock wasn't put there for another sixty years or more...

Folklore also records that whilst the prisoners' excrement was carried off and dumped into the Wear by a special team of medieval honey diggers, their urine pooled beneath the foundations of the solid bedrock of the Dunholme where it lay peaceably for over 600 years until the summer of 1976 when it was kicked off by the heat, necessitating the cathedral be closed until the problem could be sorted.

Folklore also records that I went into Durham Cathedral one day and engaged Christopher Lee in a conversation covering much of the above without recognising him....

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:18 PM

You were doing well until that lat bit. Jack, but everyone knows that Dracula could not have gone in a church :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:48 PM

Nor even Lord Summerisle himself! But on this occasion he was in his Templar garb filming Ivanhoe for the BBC, c. 1997:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514cIcOOz2L.jpg

I even made him chuckle with my quote from Sir Walter Scott: Grey towers of Durham, yet well I love thy mixed and massive piles....

Which you'll find engraved on Prebends Bridge by The View, no doubt in memory of the sufferings of the Scottish POWs after The Battle of Neville's Cross.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:48 PM

In contrast to the Mersey Funnel, light, airy, undated and modern inside, the Anglican cathedral is over-large, morose, gloomy and charmless. At least, that was my response to it. I love the sunken garden alongside, however, a haven of peace in a big city, even if not exactly cheerful.

An interesting throwaway remark from Raggytash: If we're talking cathedrals Durham tops the list for me. Stunning way to frighten the masses.

A great cathedral has to strike a somewhat delicate balance between grandeur way beyond human scale (let's call it Godly magnificence) and not frightening people half to death via shock and awe. I've been in a good number of churches in ultra-Catholic Italy, large and small, and it often seems to me that the major earthly edifices of Catholicism are indeed frequently designed to terrify. Quite often, the internal architecture is crude and somewhat brutal, and the statuary and other iconography is chunky, unsubtle, dark and, well, looming and scary. Down in the crypt of the Duomo in Naples a large urn under a dedicated altar contains the bones, sticking proudly out of its top, of St Gennaro, martyred in the third century in La Solfatara crater at Pozzuoli. Well I really didn't need to see that! :-)

The non-Catholic cathedrals of Britain often strike that delicate balance a bit more successfully. You can be big and chunky, like St David's and Hereford Cathedrals and Bath Abbey, but still feel welcoming. ;-) if you're ever in Truro, the cathedral, all a bit of a derivative hotchpotch, can still surprise and, sort of, delight.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:52 PM

Though I suppose they weren't always non-Catholic...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 02:26 AM

The admiration of old churches runs well with me. At last, this debate is getting interesting.

I also love the ruined piles that old 'Enry gave us. A literal church v state situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:20 AM

Steve, I can assure you it was not a throw away line, it was a considered remark, and as for the great cathedrals, abbey, friaries of the UK a good majority were "stolen" from the catholic faith who originally built them.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:51 AM

"from the catholic faith who originally built them."
The great cathedrals and friaries were built by the sweated labour of artisan peasants, not by any particular faith - that is what makes them so interesting - they are monuments to humanity, not to any particular God.
We've been lucky enough to be able to visit some of the beautiful temples built by heathens such as the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians, equally beautiful and spectacularly skillful and equally dripping with the blood of those who actually carried the hods.
Still never come down from our visits to Abu Simbal and Philae - never made the ones in South America.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:55 AM

Point taken Jim, but shall we say they were originally dedicated to the catholic faith and were subsequently "stolen" by the protestant faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:53 AM

Norwich Cathedral is a particular favourite of mine; York Minster likewise, though for me its generally about the details - the medieval minutiae so beloved of the Pre-Reformation Catholic Church and so readily promoted / dismissed as pagan by their latter-day Anglican custodians without a wider understanding of the essentially dualist theology of the time. Here's a one from the Norwich Cloister, though fully integral to the Passion sequence, viewed out of context it's easy to see why such notions might take hold, but we mustn't forget where we are, much less when...      

Norwich Cathedral, East Walk Cloister Boss

Ribaldry abounds too - in keeping with the clerical fascination for such things, didactic or otherwise, as in the songs collected in the celebrated Carmina Burana ms. One might, therefore, ponder the symbolic purpose of this delightful little scene from York Minster in which a monkey buggers a boar with what appears to be a piece of narwhale tusk:

Column Capital, North Choir Aisle, York Minster

Sadly, Christianity just doesn't seem to have the same sense of humour or humanity anymore!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:58 AM

"Point taken Jim"
Thanks Raggy
One of the first (and best) songs we recorded from Travellers was one made by Wexford Traveller, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors - a statement of pride covering their abilities historically;
The first two verses are:

We are the Travelling people like the Picts and Beaker Folk,
The men in Whitehall think we're parasites, but 'Tinker' is the name.

All the jobs in the world we have done
From making Pharaoh's coffins, to building Birmingham

Heady stuff
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:04 AM

On one of the Misericords in Manchester Cathedral is a depiction of rabbits roasting a hunter!

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-manchester-cathedral-misericord-the-hunter-hunted-34985579.html

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:26 AM

The great cathedrals and friaries were built by the sweated labour of artisan peasants, not by any particular faith

I would think the sweated labour was of the architects, master masons, carpenters & labourers of a very particular faith and directed to the very particular purpose of the Church / State situation they were working for. There are hints of other influences - the 12th century Galilee Chapel of Durham Cathedral has very definite Islamic touches - but the dedication is most assuredly Catholic. Even the artisan peasants who did the grafting would have known only too well which side of their daily bread was buttered.

I'm inclined to agree with Raggytash when he says Stunning way to frighten the masses.. Even now we might look at Durham Cathedral (from as far away as ten miles as I recall from North Durham!) and shudder at its absolute dominance of the landscape. On the country boundary signs it says Country Durham - Land of the Prince Bishops - church & state in one chilling absolute authority dedicated utterly, and ruthlessly, to the upholding of the power structures that were integral to The One True Faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:42 AM

The lake district churches and chapels always amaze me. From the magnificence of Cartmel Priory right to tiny church of St Olaf in Wasdale. I am never sure which I like best. Usually depends which I am in at the time :-)

One a bit nearer home for me (about 40 minutes drive - about 5 minutes past the Station, Raggy) is St Leonards in Chapel-le-Dale. A beautiful little church with a stunning view of Ingleborough from the front porch. It also now contains a memorial to the many men women and children who lost their lives building the Settle to Carlisle railway and were buried in unmarked graves at St Leonards. Very poignant.

Anyone know why it would be listed in a Cumbria tourist site? As far as I know it has always been in Yorkshire but with, I think, a Lancaster postcode!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:51 AM

While I was thinking I also remembered visiting a few churches looking for the work of Robert (Mouseman) Thompson
but I can only remember finding them at Hubberholme. Must return to that search one day :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:09 AM

We are the Travelling people like the Picts and Beaker Folk,
The men in Whitehall think we're parasites, but 'Tinker' is the name.

All the jobs in the world we have done
From making Pharaoh's coffins, to building Birmingham

That's a very Kiplingesque reading of history, Jim - almost plagiarism! Heady maybe, but historically wayward too; both The Picts and The Beaker Folk were very much the unitary authorities of their time. In the case of the latter their dominion extended throughout most of the British Isles and was powerful enough to marshal the forces that built Silbury Hill or else drag the blue stones from Preseli Mountains to Salisbury Plain.

Slave labour? That's too simple a reading. Even your pal Ewan MacColl celebrated such municipal engineering projects as a source of proletarian pride, as he did here in his song abut the building of Blyth Power Station:

Blyth Power Station Record Breaker Part 1 (from 1.30)

As for Pharaoh's coffins - the techniques of their construction might baffle the most eminent of archaeologists today so I don't think we're talking itinerant labour here somehow...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:19 AM

"Heady maybe, but historically wayward too"
Not bad for a semi-literate Traveller though
These songs, folk or otherwise, are seldom, if ever, historically correct - one of the verses says:

"We taught the Emperor Nero how to play the pipes,
Way back in the days of Rome"

All very tongue-in-cheek and expected to be taken this way - ah well

As far as I'm concerned, it's streets ahead of the Imperialist hymns were were taught in school about civilising the savages
Give us a break Blandy!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:24 AM

Sorry, Raggytash, I took your remark as absolutely io the button and didn't mean to sound critical of it. Clumsy sod, Shaw...

I have a special affection for Tintern Abbey, not least because the day we visited it had lovely light. In addition, the occasion was the very first time I got a senior citizen's concession for anything - even though the nice lady on the desk knew that my 60th wasn't until the next day. It felt like winning the lottery (though it saved me just 50p)! The day also managed to largely erase the memory of having Wordsworth's tedious poem shoved down my throat for 'O' Level English Lit!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:47 AM

Not bad for a semi-literate Traveller though

There's a lot of wisdom in those lyrics, Jim - a clear agenda and an obvious awareness of both history & Kipling. So - semi-literate? Hmmm.... unless they've been watching a lot of TV.

I wonder, do any Travellers of your acquaintance still claim lineage to Ancient Egypt? I remember hearing from one young Traveller how their teacher, taking such things a tad too literally, once bought them packs (at some considerable expense on an already stained budget) on Ancient Egypt to better instruct them on their true - er - heritage. That was only about 20 years ago...

Kilping's an obvious imperialist, but despite his conservatism & patronising folksiness (The Land is a classic example of his vision of cultural continuity under feudalism despite many taking it to be some sort of socialist morality tale...) I think he's well aware of who the true savages are, however so mawkish his vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:49 AM

Has anyone been to St Mary's Church in Wreay up in Cumbria. I recently read a book about Sara Losh who designed and oversaw the building of the church there between 1840 and 1842. It is supposed to be a brilliant designed using pine cones as one of her designs together with many other symbols instead of the usual religious icons.

It's on my list to visit this summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:02 AM

Heard about it, but never been. There's some nice pics here:

The Pinecone : a Visit to St Mary's Church, Wreay in Cumbria

The rounded apse and doorway show an awareness of the Romanesque, of which Kilpeck near Hereford is a classic example:

Church of St Mary and St David, Kilpeck

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:11 AM

I well remember traveling down to Chepstow by bus. I saw some old ruins and asked the Missus what they were. She said "Tintern Abbey", to which I replied "Well, if it'int an abbey it's some sort of church..."

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:29 AM

Fountains Abbey is one of my favourite places. The last time I was thereBBC were filming a documentary, Gregorian chant was wafting round the ruins, magical. Lovely music in a beautiful setting!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:43 AM

Rubbish Dave, Everyone knows Tintern Abbey is in County Wexford.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:49 AM

tin't an abbey in Wexford at all. 'tis an abbey in Wales though...