History and mythology of WW1

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 16 - 05:20 AM

Thanks, ake.

I have said before and am sure to do so again that such posts are a complete nonsense. Everyone knows they are and should treat them as such. I have been called and accused of all sorts of things that are not true. Because it is blatantly obvious that they are not true I have come to realise that they simply do not matter.

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you...

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jan 16 - 05:12 AM

Sorry Dave, 8th Jan 3:29 am

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 16 - 04:54 AM

"Why do you compromise your credibility by associating with them?"
Can't speak for the th others - I know none of "the others"
Why do you associate with a tiny minority of extremist right wingers who consistently lie and distort what others say (and history) in support of a system and an establishment you claim to be opposed to.
It is you and they who are out of step on this forum - have you really not worked out why (sorry, missed out Brucie the Troll )?
As the song says:
"You can tell the man who boozes by the company he chooses"
As Dave has just said - if you agree with these people - why not join in the argument with your own thoughts instead of sniping from afar?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 16 - 04:53 AM

see 8th Jan 3:45 pm

There are no posts on the 8th of January between 3:29PM and 5:02PM. I think you are seeing things, ake. Pretty much like teribums made up "I don't know which Regiment got there first but..."

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 10 Jan 16 - 04:22 AM

"Yet you have no compunction in joining the baying pack in attacking those that do have the expertise. "

But when we did, on the other, now closed, thread, have an actual academic historian with actual expertise (called GUEST, Modette), that person was driven away by abuse such as "where did your degree come from, back of a cornflakes packet". I can't remember now whether the abuse came from Teribus or Keith or Akenaton, I suspect the first of those.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jan 16 - 03:32 AM

No, be buggered if I can find it. There's something about a knobhead but I reckon that was fair comment and accurately aimed.

Keith, quite politely actually, wished this thread to explore the history vs the mythology of WW1. Sadly, I reckon his take was 180 deg from reality judging by his posts, which is not surprising when Tertibulus props up any thought he had with scriptive diarrhoea.

The input from a confused sewer pit of hatred, on the basis of following people around who dismiss his bigotry does little to help. I have not read a single actual contribution to this thread from him. Presumably because he can't weave in his usual views on British citizens of Pakistani origin, gay men, travellers, women or anyone he sees as liberal. (No idea what he means as liberal. I doubt he does. Let's settle for anyone offended by his pollution of a respectable website.)

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 07:11 PM

Hmmm, sadly Akenaton that coming from you, in particular, is not a ringing endorsement.

Question for you. Have you ever added anything of a historical nature to this or any other thread about WW1.

IF I am wrong I will apologise.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 06:33 PM

Dave, you really are a couple of rungs above these people...that is my honest opinion.
You had the grace to agree about the status of the Musket creature who follows me around (see 8th Jan 3:45 pm)

Why do you compromise your credibility by associating with them?
This is my sincere view, they are here to wreck the place they have no real interest in history only in shutting down threads or insulting people who challenge them.
You have a sense of humour and can be one of the stars here...friendly advise.....ditch them.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:22 PM

No idea why, but I'd just like to say;

Fuck off

That feels better

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 08:28 AM

a couple of moron jingoists

this pair of eejits


Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 08:16 AM

"Yet some are compelled to offer their opinions on subjects of which they are ignorant simply to attack those with whom they disagree on the basis of ideology."
If that's the case, these geniuses should be ably to destroy any opposition with one flash of their magnificent intellects - instead, one hides behind hitorians he hasn't read, the othr bullies and blusters, runs away from questions he cannot answer - both of them habitually lie - not thee sign of true genius.
As for you - you just troll from the undergrowth of anonymity.
If you knew enough to know who are the experts, you are perfectly free to join in - instead O Bearded One - you troll.
Let's have your ideas instead of your sycophantic support for a couple of moron jingoists.
Gi' us a break - you are as extremisat right as this pair of eejits.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 08:08 AM

nobody knows everything

Yet some are compelled to offer their opinions on subjects of which they are ignorant simply to attack those with whom they disagree on the basis of ideology.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 07:50 AM

"Unlike you I defer to those who know what they're talking about."
Then you will remain ignorant - nobody knows everything
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 07:21 AM

That sounds very much like I know sweet FA and am not prepared to learn. The likes of Teribus & Keith are only forwarding one side of the discussion (such as it is). To many it is a very blinkered view, making excuses for the carnage of WW1.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 07:07 AM

witjhout even trying to put forward an argument of your own

Unlike you I defer to those who know what they're talking about.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 06:39 AM

"Yet you have no compunction in joining the baying pack in attacking those that do have the expertise. "
Any you have no compunction in trolling thread after thread witjhout even trying to put forward an argument of your own Brucie (your literary skills betray you).
There has been very little expertise here - though some of us are willing to learn
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:47 AM

Yet you have no compunction in joining the baying pack in attacking those that do have the expertise.

If either you, imbecilic gusset, or ake have that expertise then, yes, guilty as charged. But I have never attacked anyone for their expertise, only their attitudes, and coming out with such moronic invention only shows you for the sad stalker you are.

I suppose I should be flattered that you take the time and trouble to follow me round various threads, sniping from the sidelines, but it does you no favours.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:37 AM

Still..   17 million dead eh? Some bugger somewhere didn't lead troops well. Someone sonewhere was incompetent and callous.

Seems to me that the likes of Terribulus have become victims of legislated nostalgia. That there Douglas Coupland hits the nail bang on the head.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 08:03 PM

"they do fulfil all the criteria."
As do you.
I am aware who he was referring to - just astounded that someone who behaves as he does should accuse anybody of being either a bully or a coward.
He constantly sneers down at people and does a runner when his pronouncements are challenged - which is often.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:07 PM

Who gave Keith the key for the asylum

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:55 PM

I have always readily admitted that I do not know much about history silly gusset

Yet you have no compunction in joining the baying pack in attacking those that do have the expertise. Not that we mind though, we are entertained by the spectacle of you being made fools.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:09 PM

I have always readily admitted that I do not know much about history silly gusset. I do know people though and I am not sure I would even class you as one of the same race.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 05:46 PM

Bloody hell. One in every village? Bloody commune of them (the same idiot really) on here.

Of course the problem is, with their sanitising of military incompetence and blunder, they are making a mockery of the millions who died.

"We who are following this thread". I'm sure if you look hard enough, you can find some wanking material on the internet instead.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 05:02 PM

It just makes you look a complete knobhead.

You and the pack are so caught up in your circle jerk that you don't recognize that we who are following this thread know who the real knobheads here are. All you combined have not one iota of the knowledge and expertise on this subject that Teribus does. You really come off as a gang of prats offering little of substance but a lot of opinion, mostly based on a long discredited, failed ideology. Do keep it up though, we enjoy laughing at you.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket of the team variety it appears
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 03:29 PM

He LOOKS like a knob head too????
😳😳😳😳

What's all this about the "team?"

Hang on, I'll find out.

Ring Ring

"Hi Alex, I've got a question"

"Sorry, I'm driving."

"You were driving before when others tried asking you a question."

"I know. I've got to get to Seaham and back before it gets light"

"What! again?"

🐶🔨👻

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:58 PM

Ake, I think that most people are aware that you follow teribums round like a lapdog yapping with glee whenever you think he has done something good. You may think it puts you in good stead. It doesn't. It just makes you look a complete knobhead.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:48 PM

Jim, I think most people are aware that Mr T is referring to "Team Musket" and their followers......they do fulfil all the criteria.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:57 PM

"I tend to dislike hypocrites almost as I dislike bullies and cowards."
Self hatred - surely not!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:50 PM

No mirrors in your sheltered accommodation I take it?

No idea about saluting. I recall being saluted by a sailor or three when we went up to a "taceval" at Lossiemouth. Hated it, having to acknowledge it when my mind was elsewhere. At least at Locking no bugger bothered.

In case anyone wonders what he is on about by the way. Military police were known as either red caps or red tops. Unfortunately he has only heard of the former so reckoned I'd made it up. (Interestingly The Monocled Mutineer used both names.)

Fool

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 11:25 AM

Very pleased to hear that no such invitation will ever be forthcoming - I tend to dislike hypocrites almost as I dislike bullies and cowards.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 11:25 AM

"Any examples of employers saying to their fully trained and experienced employees who the employer must have relied upon to do whatever it was they did in order to generate profit "
Stop making things up - what I wrote was:
" a threat of dismissal by employers" - no "fully trained, no "immediate dismissal"
Again, Covered by Paxman's programme 1.
This touches on it - Paxman was more definite of it being a compulsory condition of permanent employment.
The Government encouraged the "realease" of men in order that they should enlist - coupled with the white feathers and the emotional blackmail -it was virtually impossible not to join.
POSTERS
Jim Carroll
"The British had about 5.5 million men of military age, with another 500,000 reaching 18 each year.[4] The initial call for 100,000 volunteers was far exceeded, almost half a million men enlisted in two months (see the graph). Naturally thereafter there were fewer, though volunteering was still ardently promoted by the most effective recruiting poster ever drawn (pictured above), newspaper reports of German barbarities that were supported later by eminent historians,[5] pressure from employers who promised to keep jobs open, some Poor Law Guardians who refused to support fit military-aged men, and orations by politicians and public figures. They built on Kipling's questions, " What stands if Freedom fall? Who dies if England live?".

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 11:14 AM

If I had any regard for you Teritowelling I might even have invited you to share of my collection of single malt whisky and Whiskey, numbering at least 49 different single malts. But I can't see that ever happening.

I do have the odd bottle of blends that kind but unknowing people have given me. Have I ever bought a blend, not for at least 40 years.

I would think that everyone on here who has commented so far understands the difference between a blend, a single malt and single cask.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 11:00 AM

"Waffling on about officer lectures that you have no idea of"

Attended them at University; BRNC Dartmouth; RMA Sandhurst; RUSI; IISS. Not surprisingly I found them fascinating - which obviously shows in the exchanges on this subject - Now for someone who claims to have served albeit for less than a dog-watch tell everybody about those REDTOPS again.

On the other thing:

Blended whisky v Single malt whisky

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:57 AM

And Midleton Single Malt is still a single malt, not that anyone could expect an apology from Teribus.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:44 AM

Err. It was Pilot Officer actually Terribulus. I know you wish matters to be accurate. I did get Queen's Commission after basic training but this was, or at least used to be, suspended until after a period of role training, in my case at Locking. My "character on discharge certainly gave rank, even though I never really saw myself as anything other than an officer cadet. The spit and polish was boring, drill a pain in the arse and the only bits I really enjoyed were cross country and when they put us a CS chamber and made us change gas mask cartridges. No sinus problems for months after that fucker.

It really pisses you off doesn't it? Waffling on about officer lectures that you have no idea of and then finding at least one person here, maybe others, were the sort whose uniform you'd have to salute. Don't worry, I thought it old fashioned bollocks. I was there for the engineering not the handlebar moustache.

A blend of malts is still a blend, you old fool.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:42 AM

Any further word on where Joe Armstrong said "I don't know which Regiment got there first but" by any chance?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:36 AM

...and all three are far better than talking about WW1.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:35 AM

Any examples of employers saying to their fully trained and experienced employees who the employer must have relied upon to do whatever it was they did in order to generate profit - "Join up now, leave my employment immediately or I will sack you" - I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:34 AM

Blended is a blend of malt and grain whiskeys

Blended malt is a blend of malt whiskeys from different distilleries

Single malt is the produce of a single distillery

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:16 AM

"there is none."
There are numerous soldiers accounts of why they joined up, but of course, they're all liars.
I reckong Paxman dedicated at least ten minutes to Bottomly's 'show' and threats of being sacked were included in that.
The various inducements listed, emotional blackmail and White Feathers particularly, are still available on line in the form of posters from the time.
None so blind... as the saying goes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:09 AM

GUEST Colin springs up next.

Any evidence - the only way such a "promise" or "inducement" could have been made would have left some trace of it's existence - there is none.

As Lighter says between August 1914 and December 1914 1.2 million men volunteered which means that as they left their homes, work, offices, colleges, universities to go down to the recruitment centres - they had already decided to join the army - they did not need any promise or inducement.

But there again Colin that sort of reasoning relies on commonsense and logic.

Listen to Margaret MacMillan on Von Moltke the Elder who in 1890 stated that while wars between nation states and their governments always had a distinct objective and could be controlled by governments what he saw as wars of the people once started could not be controlled and would last until they had run their course - anything up to seven years in length - his other prediction came horribly true - "Woe betide whoever starts a European conflict" - The German Kaiser was the person who pressed for got his European War to set Germany on it's path to greatness as the dominant power in Europe with an instantly acquired foreign Empire carved from the åpossessions of France and Belgium.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM

A single Malt

Or more to the point a single malt from Midleton

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM

"Men went to recruiting offices because they were eager to enlist. "
Yes they were - for a whole bunch of reasons - adventure, the uniform, regular meals, a job, emotional blackmail, a threat of dismissal by employers, per pressure, the idea that it would be an easy ride....and a landslide of propaganda which had little to do with reality.
Horatio Bottomley, English financier, journalist, editor, newspaper proprietor, swindler, and Member of Parliament, was one of the main recruiters in the early days - he became a millionaire from persuading young men to go to their deaths on the basis that the war would be quick and easy - he was later jailed for issuing frauduleny 'Victory Bonds' - so countless young man were sent to their deaths by a crook.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:10 AM

That is not evidence to support the statement. That is supposition on your part Lighter.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:03 AM

Men went to recruiting offices because they were eager to enlist.

By the time they were there, any empty promise of a quick victory would have made little difference to the vast majority of them.

They wanted to fight.

Besides, the idea of a war "over by Christmas" was already in circulation. Hearing it again from some recruiting sergeant would mean nothing.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 05:36 AM

Certainly NOT an impression given by the Government of the day OR AT ANY RECRUITING OFFICE. Any evidence for the highlighted part of that statement?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:44 AM

Two things there, teribums.

1. As I said earlier it does not matter where it came from. The point is that some people believed it and

2. You say you believe that it was well down the priority list. Do you have any evidence of that?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:31 AM

"Certainly NOT an impression given by the Government of the day or at any recruiting office"
An impression deliberately given by those getting the men to sign on the dotted line, such as and an impression accepted by those issuing documents on agriculture, but most importantly, one that was accepted by those joining up - which brings us back to the nonsense that they did so because the believed in the war - some may have done, but that doesn't stop it from having been the family quabble over political power and territory that it really was.
More unqualified pronouncements - do you believe this stuff you spout without backing evidence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:03 AM

"People signed up under the false impression that there would not be a protracted conflict."

Certainly NOT an impression given by the Government of the day or at any recruiting office. And the duration of the conflict I believe came way down the priorities of those men who volunteered and what they believed to be important at the time.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:02 AM

It was self evident but I suppose I must point it out.

The logistical situation Terribulus refers to merely indicates two things;

1. It was irresponsible and wrong to suck men in on the understanding it might be over by Xmas.

2. In making the claim and not correcting themselves they were either lying to attract recruits or inept enough to believe they might achieve such an aim.

So we have the wonderful spectacle of Terribulus pointing out the military top brass either lulled men in to join up under false pretence or they believed they could pull something off that even an armchair fool such as Terribully knows to be impossible.

At no time did anybody set out to scotch the rumour or belief it would be over by Xmas. Indeed, even the eminent alive modern Gove approved historians all agree with Mudcat contributors 😆