History and mythology of WW1

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 03:00 AM

Yes, I understand all that teribums, but the end result is the same regardless of where the 'home for Christmas' rumour started. People signed up under the false impression that there would not be a protracted conflict.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:54 AM

A blend is malt. You are thinking of a single malt.

Bloody hell Terribulus. Even when you try to make people look idiots, it backfires you old fool. 😂😂😂

I'd keep to WW1 if I were you. Your view, repugnant and illogical as it may be, at least cannot be emphatically challenged at every level, other than the certainty you attach to it. You see, there were a few good decisions made to mitigate the bad decisions. There were officers uncomfortable with the theatre of war and tactics employed. Some men did weigh up the situation from a position of knowledge and still sign up.

But your insistence that only the bits that make the inept military leadership look otherwise happen to be true just shows everybody what an arse you are.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:47 PM

"it still resulted in many people volunteering on the false impression that they would not be there long."

The over or home by Christmas line was NOT spread by Government.

Looking at it logically:

1: Between August 1914 and December 1914 1.2 million young men volunteered to join the Army

2: The British Army of the day was at full strength including reserves was roughly 440,000 men

3: For there to be any credibility in the over by Christmas how were the 1.2 million going to be trained? Who was going to train them? Where were they going to be trained? Impossible in that time frame.

4: For there to be any credibility in the over by Christmas how were the 1.2 million going to be clothed and armed? Impossible in that time frame.

5: British Army roughly 440,000 with an additional 1.2 million waiting in the wings (Harry Patch conscripted in October 1916 was not deployed to France until June 1917 - by the time Harry was conscripted the training barracks, the equipment available the supply train was all in place - it wasn't in 1914) was up against a fully mobilised German Army of 4.5 million. Now I know the British might have had a slighly over-inflated opinion of their capabilities but I do not think that that would stretch to them defeating the largest and best trained army in the world inside 5 months whilst being outnumbered 10:1 - Simply impossible that it could ever be over by Christmas.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:25 PM

Midleton is a rare blend NOT a Malt

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 03:38 PM

I presume you refer to that stuff named Midleton. Personally I wouldn't even use it for cooking.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 03:03 PM

"Whiskey I do like the Irish malts"
The only Irish malt I like weighs in at £149
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 02:44 PM

Bottle of Port and some ripe Stilton perhaps?






Only expressing personal preference ........... after half a bottle of Whisky (or Whiskey I do like the Irish malts)

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:20 PM

We'll just chew the fat over the whisky mate.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:09 PM

I missed the s off parts so I will join you in the study with the revolver. Or is it in the dining room with the lead pipe? What is the consensus?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:53 PM

Thank you Triplane. I shall take a gun and bottle of whisky into the study. I may be some time.

Here Dave, are you saying Terribulus is changing what was said and adding a bit?

Are you sure?

You see, I didnt think the old bugger capable. His limit seems to be typing "Ahhh {name of whoever pisses on his bonfire} followed by selective cuts and pastes from that Internet thingy.

Lighter makes an excellent point. However, our resident jingo jangles would point out that anything that fits with their rosy view of the establishment must be verbatim.

Curiously, all the historians they love quoting stress the subjectiveness of their findings before giving their personal view. Point this out and they scoff, presumably on the basis of being confused by people intellectually capable of independent rationalism.

Dave, I've got a rhyme to end your limerick.

💩

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:19 PM

There was a young man from Herts
Who knew his historical part
Of points he had three
Which everyone could see
But all that we smelled was...

Couldn't think of the last bit :-)

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 11:54 AM

Tut Tut Muskie
A limerick is a type of humorous verse of five lines with an AABBA rhyme scheme: the poem's connection with the city is obscure, but the name is generally taken to be a reference to Limerick city or County Limerick,[32][33] sometimes particularly to the Maigue Poets, and may derive from an earlier form of nonsense verse parlour game that traditionally included a refrain that included "Will [or won't] you come (up) to Limerick?"[

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 11:35 AM

"was a deliberate lie"
Unlik your claims about #Tommy Keny, it was not a "deliberate lie"
It was a belief of many that it would be a short war - Kitchener was actually criticised by fellow military and by politicians for his "pessimism" in suggesting otherwise.
What is deliberate is your refusal to even acknowledge the fact that the idea of a short war was one held by government official;s, so if it was 'a myth' it was one encouraged by them in charge to get mn to enlist.
The only people here who tell deliberate lies are you and your mate - still denying your disgusting denigration of war veterans.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 11:26 AM

"Essentially they did. It was an expression of strained optimism, not propaganda."
Not entirely - the idea of 'a short war did appear on official documents such as the one on agriculture, cited above, and it became part of Horatio Bottomley's 'easie-peasie pantomime' shows, as shown in the first Paxman programme.
If it was wishful thinking, it was not discouraged by the recruiters.
From a Wiki entry on the economics of the war
"All of the powers in 1914 expected a short war; none had made any economic preparations for a long war, such as stockpiling food or critical raw materials. The longer the war went on, the more the advantages went to the Allies, with their larger, deeper, more versatile economies and better access to global supplies. As Broadberry and Harrison conclude, once stalemate set in late in 1914:"   
Wiki again:
"Over by Christmas
When the war began both sides believed, and publicly stated, that the war would end soon."
Ambivalence rules OK, it would appear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:42 AM

Thanks, Lighter. Sensible reply. I do not have enough knowledge to comment on whether it is right or wrong so am more than happy to accept your view. What I would say though was that whether it was 'strained optimism' or propaganda it still resulted in many people volunteering on the false impression that they would not be there long.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:26 AM

> or did everyone make it up?

Essentially they did. It was an expression of strained optimism, not propaganda.

And it was partly based on the expectation - made vivid by the Second Balkan War of 1913, which had resulted in 160,000 casualties - that a general war would soon become unendurable for both sides.

The war in the Balkans, widely reported in the papers, had lasted less than six weeks.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:01 AM

But that still does not answer why 'it will be over by Christmas' was such a popular expression. It must have come from somewhere or did everyone make it up?

As to which version Joe's words is correct, I suggest you listen to the clip, in his own voice, and tell us where he said I don't know which Regiment got there first but as you report.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:41 AM

As to which version is correct the IWM's or The Long, long, trail's

There was a reason I left the Joseph Armstrong © IWM at the end of the cut-n-paste.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:39 AM

It may well have been one of the most popular sayings of the time Gnome - that is not the point. What Jom the infallible said was that "It'll all be over by Christmas" was a deliberate lie told to those volunteering by the government, at one point he told us all that it was a Government "promise" although exactly how he could have ever come up with that I have no idea.

As to which version is correct the IWM's or The Long, long

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:09 AM

Missed a bit
"What a confused, bitter and hate-filled little anglophobe you are Jom."
Anglophobe - it isn't me defending the decimation of British youth - or perhaps you only count the upper echelons of British society as being worthy of the description 'British'
And again - 'tisn't me who described British industry as "crap" and was glad to see the back of it, leaving Britain totally reliant of foreign imports.
You, like your late mate Thatcher, have a strange concept of the meaning of 'Britishness'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 08:29 AM

h Jom so you cannot find any direct quote from me stating that - "No Tommy Kenny from Liverpool ever enlisted in WW1" - why not just admit it Jom?"
Why did you claim o soldier of they name came from Liverpool and continue to question his war service?
Yor defencre of this disgusting bloodbath of a war has reached gutter - level between you - hit and run accusations of racism, attacks on veterans reputations 'liars', 'gullible' 'rumour mongers, made up history - and at total refusal to respond to both your behaviour and your crass re-writing of history.
You are fine examples of the jingoist field of historical research, as your bullying is a fine example of the behaviour that has put your rightist Tory Party in the spoltlight.
Answer the ***** points - both of you
Jim Carroll


,

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:57 AM

Wonder why you, or the person who edited the text in the link you provided, left out the bit in bold there Gnome?

I left out nothing, teribums. I C&P'd directly from the transcript. I have also listened to the clip and the bit you put in, in bold, does not exist. The transcript is identical to what Joe Armstrong actually says. Now why would the IWM, or you, put words into the mouth of an old soldier?

I am still puzzled as to why 'It will be over by Christmas' was one of the most popular sayings of 1914 (source Imperial War Museum site) when you say there was no such view at the time. Who is right? You or the Imperial War Museum?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:30 AM

Ah Jom so you cannot find any direct quote from me stating that - "No Tommy Kenny from Liverpool ever enlisted in WW1" - why not just admit it Jom?

And this one is a deliberate lie of yours:

"in your spiteful diatribe was an attempt to pass doubt on Tommy's war service, including claiming that no soldier of that name appeared in military records"

Go back and examine the exchanges and you will find that I found not only one soldier of that name I found SIX of them.

What a confused, bitter and hate-filled little anglophobe you are Jom.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:27 AM

Nor would the far-away German artillerists have cared whether the buttons were shined or not.

In broad daylight no German infantry would have cared either.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:22 AM

What point are you trying to make Teribus?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:10 AM

2123 ACPL. J. ARMSTRONG. L.N.LAN.R

The IWM copy:

One day we were in reserve trenches and an officer thought he'd give us a bit of exercise. To get to this here village where he was taking us, we had to go over a plateau. I don't know which Regiment got there first but we, my regiment, were right on the top of this plateau – which was probably about 200 yards across – when all hell let loose. The Germans had retired to positions that they'd held in 1870 during the French war, and they had all their artillery on this position so they knew the range to an inch.

Before we set off, the officer made us clean our buttons – you know, brass buttons – we had to clean them. So in that sunshine we must have been a beautiful target, mustn't we? They were laughing and singing and joking, all the lot of them. And in the twinkle of an eye, I was the only one left alive out of 400. I was the only one left alive out of 400. Dead and dying all round me. I dived into a shell hole and stopped there for an hour and a half… – Joseph Armstrong © IWM

Wonder why you, or the person who edited the text in the link you provided, left out the bit in bold there Gnome?

The date of the incident would be around the time of the Battle of the Aisnes late summer 1914 because Joe Armstrong was taken prisoner in October 1914 and spent the remainder of the War as a POW.

Reading the story critically (No doubt at all that this happened) but:

1: This just wasn't done on the whim of one officer - Joe mentions that there was more than one Regiment involved.

2: Franco-Prussian War - Prussian positions on the Aisnes? - Their attacks were all well to the east, during the Franco-Prussian War the Prussians honoured the neutrality of Belgium.

3: Range can be deduced from maps and invariably nearly always is - The best and most accurate maps of the UK are the Ordnance Survey Maps - the purpose for them being made was for use by the artillery (Ordnance) so that they knew ranges.

4: So opening months of the First World War - the button cleaning? Possibly to kill time and occupy the attention of raw troops before a possible engagement - According to Joe's own story of the engagement in which he was captured they had got over button cleaning by October.

What Junior Officers ordered at Regimental level in 1914 in no way at all reflects how the Army was led - nice try but no cigar Gnome.

Strange that he didn't mention summary executions or special squads of military police - doubly so seeing as how he was within his Regiment a Military Policeman.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:34 PM

Don't rush him Muskie
What he does now is give it a little time, then come back without a response as if nothing had happened
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:16 PM

I await with bated breath.

That reminds me of a limerick.

With bated breath the dean undressed
The vicars wife to lie on
He thought it crude to do it nude
So he kept the old school tie on

So... Can't wait for them to start on WW2. Or will we have to go through The Spanish Civil War first? That'll be fun. Soldiers in pursuit of being socialist. Lots of opportunity for Terribulus's fascinating logic there.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 12:54 PM

"Now where and when did I ever say that Jom?"
You have gone throught the motions of calling Tommy Kenny a liar and saying that all soldiers are potential liars and gullible Urban Legend spreaders including the last surviving veteran, Harry Patch - and included in your spiteful diatribe was an attempt to pass doubt on Tommy's war service, including claiming that no soldier of that name appeared in military records - of course, you never for a minute claimed he never served - my arse, you didn't!!
Your and Keith's efforts to defend this ****** bloodbath have dredged every sewer possible - your mate's latest stunt is to drag it even deeper into the shit with accusations of racism - Kith - of all people!!
"I am all ears tell us all who it was in Great Britain that promised anybody a "short war" "
I am all agog to hear you come up with some answers to the questions you have persistently been asked and some of the deliberate lies you have told.
Many soldiers went into the war having been told it would be short - the fact that this was officially believed is obvious in a document explaining why British plans for an supplying food were inadequate.
It doesn't matter that no official statement was made - that was one of the beliefs held by those who voluntarily enlisted
"Both France and Britain had made hardly any serious preparations for maintaining food supplies in the event of a long war.1 Both nations had planned for a very short war and mistakenly believed that stocks held by the military, together with some requisitioning of supplies, would be sufficient to carry them through."
FOOD SUPPLIES DURING WW1
Now how about climbing up out of your sewers - both of you - and answering some questions - an apology for the lies is, I suppose, out of the question!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:53 AM

What is even funnier is how they all go quiet while they peruse any new links to see what bits they can use to win points. Keeps them occupied and away from here for an hour or two I suppose ;-)

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

Won't wash Dave. Joe Armstrong is neither alive, eminent or singing to the MOD hymn sheet.

I have been poking fun at Teribus and his weird mates throughout this thread on the basis they are trying to defend the indefensible. His balls and bullshit reckoning I don't know my own life and career just takes it out of any sense of reality.

As none of them have been posting about the real war, it isn't distasteful to the memory of the fallen to poke fun at them.

Boom Boom Boom Boom 🐴 Boom Boom Boom Boom 🐮💩 Boom Boom

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:07 AM

Well if previous comments by the people who actually took part are anything to go by Joe Armstrong was obviously lying.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:58 AM

Some interesting looking podcasts here. Not listened to them as I am sure there are those better qualified to comment on them than me. What I did notice was the opening comment "One of the most popular sayings of 1914 was that the war would be 'over by Christmas'." I am puzzled why this was one of the most popular sayings if no one believed it. Any ideas?

It was also with interest that I saw this example of good leadership -

Joe Armstrong, of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, witnessed first-hand how organised the Germans were.

We were in reserve trenches and an officer thought he'd give us a bit of exercise. To get to this here village where he was taking us, we had to go over a plateau. And we, my regiment, were right on the top of this plateau – which was probably about 200 yards across – when all hell let loose. The Germans had retired to positions that they'd held in 1870, and they had all their artillery on this position so they knew the range to an inch. Before we set off, the officer made us clean our buttons – actually, you know, brass buttons – we had to clean them. So in that sunshine we must have been a beautiful target, mustn't we? They were laughing and singing and joking, all the lot of them. And in the twinkle of an eye, I was the only one left alive out of 400. I was the only one left alive out of 400. Dead and dying all round me.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:42 AM

About 60% of Terribulus's brain cells ended up on that soggy biscuit by that reckoning.

Just noticed the bit about Locking, that's RAF Locking near Weston Super Mare by the way, the home of Air reconnaissance and telecommunications up to well beyond my short but sweet posting, not the "closed down radio school."

If you insist on bullshit and bollocks to score saddo points where others in here have personal experience, what fucking chance do you have when trying to convince an ever increasingly laughing audience of your twaddle over warfare?

By the way. By WW1, the objective was not to kill the enemy. This was Kitchener's own directive. He stated that the objective was to gain ground by all means. In The Boer War, he and others decreed that Zulus were to be wiped out but "European" Boers were to be contained, hence the concentration camps.

To say the objective is to kill is to show your complete and utter ignorance and stain the very military service you seem to be defending, fool.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM

Believe me Jom I am all ears tell us all who it was in Great Britain that promised anybody a "short war" - or is this a re-run of your "made up" claim reinforcing the myth about "being home by Christmas"?

Kitchener was made Secretary of State for War on the 5th August 1914 when he warned in all seriousness that the war would last three to four years, would be industrial in scale, would involve the whole of the population and would necessitate Great Britain raising the first citizens army the country had ever had - Oh and GUEST Dave in 1914 Great Britain did include Ireland.

Sir Edward Grey's best remembered remark at the outbreak of the First World War: "The lamps are going out all over Europe. We shall not see them lit again in our life-time."

So the Secretary of State for War and the Foreign Secretary most certainly DID NOT believe for one nano-second that it would be a quick war.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:15 AM

You are correct Terribulus. I was pre commission technically speaking, but gained rank at the outset of engineering college training at Locking, so other ranks did have to salute my twathat. Passing out was at Cranwell prior to that. The only night I or many others ever spent there.

Officer cadets / trainees / recruits were also billeted at Swinderby by the way. I know that not because of reading history or Wikipedia as you must have but looking at the photo outside Gibson block at Swinderby that is on the wall of my study. My lads still think it funny that their old man once considered a military career. Thinking back, it is a waste of your life. Glad I saw the light when I did, even if my reasoning was more on the academic argument than getting a thrill out of killing people. I've been proud to be labelled as a pacifist ever since.

I suppose you are so used to telling little fibs to reiterate your false premise that you think others lie too. Sad fucker.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:59 AM

"GUEST - 06 Jan 16 - 08:49 AM - Hello Raggy still sticking to anonymous contributions to snipe. But there again, I have never said that "No Tommy Kenny from Liverpool ever enlisted in WW1" did I? - Jom will not come up with anything to substantiate that claim of his - his track record in this respect is very poor. All I have ever contended is that Jim Carroll when interviewing Tommy Kenny did not bother to check what I would call key details in order that anything said could be verified.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:49 AM

"Well I suppose we managed to waste quite a lot of German human lives by, er, killing them..."

Spot on Steve - that unfortunately is what happens in wartime the enemy try to kill you and you try to kill them.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:49 AM

About 60% of all WW1 records were destroyed during WW2. The fact you did not find Jim Carroll's Tommy Kenny therefore means SFA.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:44 AM

"No Tommy Kenny from Liverpool ever enlisted in WW1"

Now where and when did I ever say that Jom?

I know that you did not check.

I did and found six men with that name who did. I looked at their service records and found the Corps and Regiments they served in.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:45 AM

"Amazing what you hear in the galley eh Jom?"
Amazing that you still put up these statements without a shred of proof and expect us to believe them - sort of like No Tommy Kenny from Liverpool ever enlisted in WW1
That's what I call amazing.
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:28 AM

"It is racist to ascribe characteristics to a population,"
Don't you even dare suggest I am a raciat - not with your track record on all male Pakistanins.
I have never suggested it an "inadequacy" in the British people - on the contrary, I have outlined the massive propaganda campaign, the liase told, the social conditions, the promise of a short war, and eventually, when all this ran out of steam, the eventual enforced enlistment under threat of imprisonment and death for refusal
You have responded to none of this - instead of this, you thrash around making claims of "racism" - a trait deeply ingrained in yo#r own character - anybody who claims that 'all male Pakistanis are culturally implanted to rape children' is a downright racist.   
Nor have you responded to the fact that Germany tyranny was no worse than that encountered at home (from a leadership headed by the same family)
Despite having the role of historians explaind to you, you ignore those fats and continue to hide behind them as if they are gogs or priests.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:38 AM

We were far less wasteful of human lives, eh? Well I suppose we managed to waste quite a lot of German human lives by, er, killing them...

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:33 AM

Keep thinking it through fool. You have just determined all by your clever little self that trench warfare isn't ideal. You've just got to make that mental leap how to ask why the leaders who led well led men perpetuated the flawed technique.

Mind you, please keep posting. You might wish to wear a red nose whilst doing so.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:20 AM

Yep GUEST "The number of dead bodies hasn't altered." neither has the fact that there are far fewer of ours than there are of theirs - so if dead bodies is your metric whose army was better led? Don't know about you but I would say ours, as we were far less wasteful of human life than they were.

Odd thing about trench warfare clueless GUEST there is no scope to manoeuvre and all attacks have to be frontal assaults again we addressed the problems that reality threw up and we came up with equipment and tactics to overcome those problems - nobody else did - now would that be another indicator of how poorly led we were GUEST?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:56 AM

mmm. I wonder how they discussed the pros and cons of "sending waves of men over the top" at Sandhurst prior to 1929?

Hang on, let's ask the umpire.

Ring Ring

Hello Alex!

Sorry, can't talk right now, I'm driving a van down to Seaham.

Ok. Catch you later.


Seems we can't tell whether Teribus has scored a point or not. Still, we can always fall back on reality if in doubt.

Yep. The number of dead bodies hasn't altered.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:37 AM

The military took him on, obviously. Keegan couldn't get lecture time in real universities at the time due to his radical pro military distortion of history.

Sky Murdochvision used to wheel him out for a controversy slot whenever conflict meant lots of dead bodies for the reporters to enthuse over wearing blue flack jackets.

I suppose the problem for those seeking to rehabilitate failure and contempt is that unlike Roman or even Tudor history, the evidence of attitudes and social intercourse of a hundred years ago is widely available for any normal person to weigh up for themselves rather than take it on the chin from academics keen to be part of the establishment.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:07 AM

Funnily enough, I was in The RAF for a few months before realising the engineering qualifications weren't quite so recognised in industry as I was led to believe. I was allowed to resign without cost and within a few months signed an apprenticeship with NCB.

So err.. Cranwell is the only one I can tick off your box Terribulus. But at least I did have a military commission, not that I even bothered putting it on my CV. Mind you, we spent time at Cranwell but were billeted down the road at Swinderby, and latterly miles away at Locking. Spanner monkeys mixing with potential aircrew? That'll never do, what?

Tell us about your commission and the lectures you attended eh? I especially enjoyed the ones about men reluctant to drop darts from biplanes through sense of chivalry and fair play whilst below them, waves of men were being unchivalry-less sent over the top to their calculated and approved deaths.

Nutter.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 04:52 AM

So does that mean that you HAVE sat in on lectures in all those places, or are you simply privy to their lecture notes? Just asking...

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 04:11 AM

Keegan also supported the Vietnam war, the bombing of Kosovo, and the invasion of Iraq. So there is a pattern.