Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:00 PM

Oh shit.

Do you take this piss out of lilo or braidedbeardedbruce?

Decisions decisions decisions.

The creature seems to have lost the plot even by his dim standards. The one thing you can say about Islam that does toss all believers in the same barrel is that there are no leaders, only sects of their own making under the general faith. They say a little knowledge is dangerous. Fuck me sideways.

It's a bit like saying if you call yourself a Christian you must be one of those mad sods who reckon the earth is only a few thousand years old and was made by a sky pixie or that all greyhounds go to the great Seaham in the sky.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:13 PM

Musket , you just don,t get it. Sweeping statements about entire groups of people are the essence of intolerance and bigotry. If you don,t get it is not my problem. However' you seem to spend a lot of time on this forum railing about those same kind of bigotries. So, which is it,... Some bigotries are ok and some are not?   
guest# made some hugely intolerant remarks, you may be ok with that, I find it toxic!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:52 PM

"In my personal experience, of all communities, Muslims are the among the friendliest people I ever encountered while working as a self-employed tradesman in London."

Well, after I'd moved from my Catholic school in Poplar, not a Muslim face in sight of course, I spent six years at a real rough-house of a senior high school in Walthamstow. Tough times, Thatcher in the ascendancy. The school population was about 40% Muslim (I don't actually believe that there's any such thing as a "Muslim pupil", so I use the term for convenience only). The pupils were the hardest working and the best motivated of any I taught in my career. Their parents were far and away the most likely to show up at parents' evenings and work with us constructively in order to get the best from their children. The area was notorious for racist incidents, nonetheless there was a warmth and openness that exceeded anything I experienced from anyone else I worked with.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:54 PM

Hilo ...# is one of the most decent people on the forum, I agree with his views regarding the use of derogatory terms like "frog"

Don't know why he made the remark about "all conservatives", it is completely out of character and we all have days when things get us down....Anyway you have the guy wrong, don't base your assessment on one post. Sorry to say this on open forum, but could not get you on PM...   OK #?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:07 PM

Well ake , I disagree. It was a hateful remark, very hateful, that kind of ugliness does not spring from nowhere. You may see him differently, but I find his kind of hypocrisy stunning.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:25 PM

I've known # on this forum for many years, always found him dead straight and fair....."The Muskets" on the other hand are "Hatred Incorporated"

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Molon Labe!
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 01:48 AM

Gallic shrug  

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:16 AM

What don't I get lilo? I stated that there are no Muslim this that or other and even the term denotes differing religious creeds under a general banner of a common set of scriptures. Try reading, me old love. Meanwhile, people who follow that path are made to feel alienated by the same scum who accuse them of not integrating.

The warped terrorists using a religion as a shield for their power based aims must be very glad to see nutters such as the Scottish creature doing their work for them, sowing seeds of mistrust, which leads to people feeling alienated.

Perhaps Akenaton might try talking to some socialists. Socialism is about equality and integration. He might learn something. Or at least he might stop embarrassing himself by claiming to be something he terms "socialist."

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:43 AM

Re the idea that the Pakistani community don't integrate due to their belief. The book below on page 39 suggests that of the households where the main income earner is from the non-white community in Scotland (which it says are mainly Pakistani, Indian or Chinese) a full third of them are married to white partners. Yes really religious people tend to marry into their own religion but that would be the same for all religions and not just Pakistani Moslems. If about a third of Pakistanis main earners are married to white people then there must be a fair bit integration going on - and of course you don't need to marry into the white population to integrate into society.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6ck5vAD3no4C&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=scotland+mix+marriage+pakistani&source=bl&ots=-XqbbNl5Vu&si

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:00 AM

It's interesting that a number of people on this forum who have claimed that Muslims do not integrate and pose a threat to Britain are staunch supporters of the Israel regime, who have just banned the book 'Borderlife' from being used in schools there on the grounds that it encourages Assimilation.
Hmmmm!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:59 AM

Allan, my point was that it was the belief, not the ethnicity of the people which was the impediment to real integration; therefore what I was saying was being wrongly construed as racism, by a couple of members earlier on.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 06:35 AM

The main impediment to integration of any ethnic or cultural community in Britain is based of xenophobia (a fear or mistrust of foreigners) - a rose by any other name.
It would help if people didn't blame the communities by claiming their religion.... whatever prevents them from integrating - it would also help if those making such claims withdrew them when they have been proved wrong.
Are you really going to walk away from your incorrect claims and ignore the evidence that Muslims are prepared become part of British society, to and have integrated?
Why am I not surprised!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 08:01 AM

Yeagh but my point was that the book I gave the link too claims people who "actually practice" a religion tend to marry within that religion. It claims that 90% of practicing Church of Scotland people marry other members of the Kirk. Then I imagine a proportion of the remaining 10% will marry other Christians or people who are just nominally Christians. If practicing Moslems tend to marry other Moslems then they are just doing the same as the wider non-Moslem religious communities. They are no different so it makes no sense to single them out. And you don't need to marry a non-Moslem to integrate anyway!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 08:17 AM

Point well made Allan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM

Well, it must be very hard to be a rich loving poor hating racist homophobe and expect people to listen to songs about it!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 10:36 AM

The book Borderlife is approved for use in Israeli schools. It is just not part of the set curriculum. The removal of the book from the curriculum met with outrage from the general population. Hence, it is available in schools. Also, please note; A Book called The Trumpet In The Wadi IS on the curriculum and deals very directly with the question of assimilation.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 11:47 AM

Hi Allan, the difference is that according to the Islamic Q&A sit which I linked to inter faith marriage is actively discouraged and those Muslim men who wish to marry a female of another faith must insist on some very strict rules including the insistence that all children are brought up to be Muslims.
As far as female Muslims are concerned, it appears that they are forbidden to marry outwith the faith.
If these conditions are not adhered to, the man or woman is no longer considered a Muslim.
The Muslim community obviously adhere much more strongly to faith teaching than do our population. Nominally Christian.
Inter-marriage seems to me to be a very important part of social integration.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 11:51 AM

Thank you very much Desi for your valuable contribution to the discussion, I hope it has been noted.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 12:55 PM

"including the insistence that all children are brought up to be Muslims."
As was the case in the Catholic Church until comparatively recently.
"Interfaith marriage in Judaism (also called mixed marriage or intermarriage) was historically looked upon with very strong disfavour by Jewish leaders, and it remains a controversial issue amongst them today. In the Talmud, interfaith marriage is completely prohibited, although the definition of interfaith is not so simply expressed.[1]"
Hinduism
" 'varnaashrama' the marriage must happen among two individuals of same 'varna' ."
Zoroastrianism
"The majority of traditional Zoroastrians and Parsis in India openly disapprove and discourage interfaith marriages."
Christianity
"Interfaith marriage in Christianity
Some churches may forbid interfaith marriage, drawing from 2 Corinthians 6:14, and in some cases Deuteronomy 7:3, "
And you continue to ignore the evidence that Muslims are well adjusted and full integrated in British Society - which suggests an agenda on your part.
Have you ever considered that any reluctance on the part of Muslims to integrate into our society might have something to do with people like you?

NBC News

"The book Borderlife is approved for use in Israeli schools"        
Israel Bans Teaching of 'Borderlife' Novel With Jewish-Arab Love Story
by PAUL GOLDMAN
"TEL AVIV, Israel — Israel's education ministry has banned high schools from teaching about a that depicts a love story between an Israeli woman and a Palestinian man, reportedly because it would encourage "hatred" and assimilation.
Teachers had nominated "Gader Haya" — "Borderlife" — by Israeli Dorit Rabinyan to become part of the country's high school curriculum.
The rejection has caused controversy in Israel, where Rabinyan described the decision as an "unbelievable scandal."
In a statement, the ministry told NBC News that the book was not approved because it was "full of layers of hidden narratives, with criticism of the liberal-left part of the Israeli political spectrum, [and] wrapped in a romantic story of an impossible love.
"The professional team came to the conclusion that young adolescent may have difficulty to go in depth into these layers."
Meanwhile, education official Dalia Fenig said on Army Radio Thursday that "at this time of tensions in Israel choosing this book can fuel hatred."
Liberal Israeli daily Haaretz quoted a letter by Fenig as saying the book shouldn't be included because teens could not grasp the "significance of assimilation."
"Adolescent youth tend to romanticize and don't have, in many cases, the systematic point of view that includes considerations about preserving the identity of the nation and the significance of assimilation," Fenig was quoted as writing in the letter."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 01:40 PM

"The Muslim community obviously adhere much more strongly to faith teaching than do our population. Nominally Christian."

Last I heard, the Muslims in this country were as much a part of our population as everyone else.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 01:42 PM

"And you continue to ignore the evidence that Muslims are well adjusted and full integrated in British Society - which suggests an agenda on your part."
.,,.
What 'evidence' then, Jim? If you have it, cite it rather than simply assert its existence as being somehow self-evident. & then balance it against other such evidence as that there are those among them who consider it an act of faith on their parts cut our soldiers to pieces with machetes in the public streets -- the 'evidence' for which is that, notoriously, they did.

"Evidence" can notoriously be a slippery 'cuts both ways' concept. So let's have yours demonstrated, please, rather than merely asserted.

(& to pre-empt amother dreary argument we've had before, forget the dreaded R-word. Let me reiterate that Islam is NOT a race -- there is no racial or ethnic congruence between a Saudi, a Malay, a N Nigerian... -- but a belief system. Belief systems are not exempt from questioning or criticism, as ethnic origins might be held to be; especially when they can lead to such consequences as rubricated above.)

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 01:59 PM

OK. A previous girlfriend was a Muslim, I knew her parents well and they were disappointed when it never took off, as were we.

Many of our colleagues are in what they call mixed faith marriages and partnerships. There is no difference between any people really. If you cut across the Christian beliefs, they are just about the same. Yes, many people are slightly more in tune with an Islamic faith, mainly for family reasons, but once my Granddad died in 1948, my parents never went to chapel again. I see and indeed know of many similarities.

Michael. No Muslim used a machete on a soldier any more than any axe weilding maniac invoking God is a Christian, and the forensic hospitals are full of them. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

Another of you half truths Jim, the book is allowed in schools., just part of the set curriculum and for older students.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 02:55 PM

"Another of you half truths Jim, the book is allowed in schools., "
You have the news item - what exactly have I edited out?
I read it first in the Irish Times- that is how I understand it.
I leave "half truths" to those who clame "every historian on the basis of a few quotrdf from less han half a dozen "historians" You right wingers can neither handle the truth or tell it.
Even if you are correct - it is a case of an extremist regime adopting the Fahrenheit 451 approach to literature in order to preserve a culturally 'pure' state - say it is not.
From Israeli newspaper Arutz Sheva
"Novel banned from Israeli schools out of assimilation fear
Education Ministry disqualifies novel depicting Arab-Jewish love story for fear it threatens adolescents' 'Jewish identity.'
Israel's Education Ministry has disqualified a novel which depicts a romance between an Israeli woman and a Palestinian man from use in high schools across the country, Haaretz reported Wednesday.
orit Rabinyan's "Gader Haya" (known in English as "Borderlife") was rejected because of the need to maintain "the identity and heritage of students in every sector" and the belief that "intimate relations between Jews and non-Jews threatens the separate identity."

Concern that "young people of adolescent age don't have the systemic view that includes considerations involving maintaing the identity of people and the significance of assimilation" was also cited as a reason for the novel's disqualification.

According to Haaretz, the book was rejected in spite of the fact the official responsible for teaching literature in secular state schools, in addition to a committee of academics, recommended adding the book to the advanced class' syllabus at the request of several teachers.
However, two senior Education Ministry officials, Eliraz Kraus, who is in charge of "society and humanity" studies, and Dalia Fenig, the acting chair of the pedagogic secretariat, both opposed the move.
"Many parents in the public education system will be strongly opposed to their son/daughter studying [this] novel, and they will see it as an attack on the contract of trust between parents and the educational system," Fenig explained.
"It should be remembered the choice of what creative work to teach is the teacher's and not the students'," she added.
"Intimate relations and certainly the open option of institutionalization via marriage and raising a family - even if this does not happen in the story - between Jews and non-Jews is seen among many communities in society as a threat to the separate identity."
"
"What 'evidence' then, Jim?"
Personal experience over 20 years backed up by newspaper reports of surveys saying exactly how they have fitted into living in Britain
What's your evidence Mike - the fact that they offend your dress sense maybe??
" Let me reiterate that Islam is NOT a race"
Nobody has ever said irt was - you said this once before in support of Keith's attack on "all male Pakistanis" - which was blatant racism in the extreme
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:15 PM

I gave you my 'evidence', Jim, that the integration was not so profound as your 'personal experience' might suggest, in 7.7 & the murder of Rigby. What other 'evidence' would you like to balance your precious 'personal experience' & 'surveys', [to which all questioned gave absolutely honest responses, of course!] for crying out loud!
.,,.
"used knives and a cleaver to stab and hack him to death" - Wikipedia.

Ooh dear: a cleaver not a machete; & ½·wit Muskititz thinks that makes a difference; & I'm the one who should be 'embarrassed'.

Christ Almighty!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:27 PM

I too have had positive relationships with many individual Muslims: fellow-students, colleagues.... So what? I remember once agreeing with a Muslim colleague at Peckham Manor School when he asked if I didn't think that European social life was far too dependent on the consumption of alcohol: indeed I think it is, often with lamentable results: much crime & violence that occurs is undeniably alcohol-fuelled indeed, and I think it something of which our society should be aware - & ashamed. Much Islamic crime, OTOH, is faith-fuelled –– which is where we came in.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:35 PM

Slow-burn: still mulling incredulously.

Jim, do you really think your 'personal experience' constitutes 'evidence' in any possible meaningful sense of the word? — "evidence' in the sense of something that might convince the enquiring or the dubious?

Oh, come on. Please!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:57 PM

Hilo, whist I agree that the post at 02:54pm on January 8th was intemperate and over the top, its worth noting that the thread title uses the word Conservative with a capital C. Thats not a description of a general philosophy, its the name of a particular political grouping (in the UK). And there are people whose life chances have been damaged quite severely by the said political grouping, and therefore there will on occasion be intemperate responses, and understandably so. I don't know whether the poster is such a person, but it may explain the response a bit.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:19 PM

"whose life chances have been damaged quite severely by the said political grouping"
.,,.
An interesting assertion, to be sure. Can you give some examples to justify it please, Dave? -- bearing in mind that all legislation by any grouping in power will benefit a certain demographic, which can only ever be done to the detriment of others with converse interests. That surely is what 'realpolitik' means?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:27 PM

Of course, the important thing about the proscription of marriage between faiths, is that it highlights the idiocy of "multiculturalism".
Take a look at what is happening in Germany where the clash of cultures manifested itself in women being isolated surrounded and sexually attacked by groups of men who believed they were prostitutes and "fair game"

The numbers now arriving in the West into what is basically an alien culture.....liberal in every way including sexually, have no time to adapt. Earlier intakes of migrants were smaller in number and taken over a much longer period.....we need to look and learn, very quickly.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:31 PM

Well we can start with disabled, long term sick, those unemployed who have every wish to work but find no opportunities, a whole host of public sector employees such as nurses, teachers, and now junior doctors. You may think they are undeserving, but you cannot expect them not to be angry. An awful lot of people will have been angry on Fat Cat Tuesday.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:45 PM

I can't see that such misfortunes occur only under the government of the party specified in the thread title, though, Dave. Such misfortunes are always due to a complex of factors -- international exchanges, the state of world markets, foreign policy demands and responsibilities, &c&c&c, to which all parties in power are vulnerable & over which they can only have partial control -- or none.. Every measure taken to advantage or benefit one lot will always have converse effects on another; and the government of the day has to try to strike the best balance possible, within the parameters of trying to fulfil their election promises, on the basis of which they were given this responsibility. I can remember lots of people being 'angry' at what Attlee's admin had done to them, or Wilson's, or Callaghan's; just as much as Eden's or MacMillan's or Thatcher's. Just perhaps a different lot of people, that's all; but all with their children to maintain & their lives and work to get on with...

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:52 PM

Jim , Everyone who disagrees with you is nor right wing, a troll or a thatcherite. I am none of those things. But your post re the banned book is misleading.

Dave, thank you for your pst. However, it is my view that any gross over generalization of any group is odious. It may also be intemperate but that does not make it acceptable.... does it?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:56 PM

Reading Musket's of 0159 again —

"No Muslim used a machete on a soldier any more than any axe weilding maniac invoking God is a Christian"

— it seems that the point he intended might have been that no Muslim could have hacked anyone to death with a machete, as the very act of doing any such thing would have constituted a sort of resignation on his part from the Muslim faith. If that was indeed what he meant, then I feel we may treat it [back yet again to my favourite quote from the sainted Jane] as a point of such fatuity as to be undeserving of the compliment of rational opposition.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:17 PM

Gosh. Pray tell me what my post really meant Michael. After all, I obviously have no fucking idea what I was typing.

Get a Horlicks and ask nurse to tuck you in. Who knows? Tomorrow, nobody will remember when you compared a few million UK citizens to a single mentally unstable loner who bludgeoned a man to death.

A while ago, you expressed surprise that I had never read your reviews in newspapers. It seems I obviously haven't exactly missed anything. Your bigotry is rather offensive. Why should I or any other normal person do anything then laugh at you and get on with talking to the grown ups?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:20 PM

ساینتیفیک آمریکن

از

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:48 PM

The "nurse" insult was never funny, even when musket started using it years ago.....He calls himself a liberal yet aims gratuitous insults a whole section of older people. Not only does he appear to have "no idea what he is writing", but nobody else can any effing sense of his posts.
Some sort of irrational irony no doubt.
You are the one who needs a nurse......a fucking wet nurse!!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 06:06 PM

Jeez!!....You guys must not have the mental capacity to stick to, "Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative"....the actual topic of the thread. You're all off on you LITTLE rants, that have nothing to do with anything, except trying to show off how astutely stupid you are!

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 06:58 PM

Agreed Sanity!.....getting back to the thread the old traditionals the small farmers, the tinkers, the foot soldiers, the reivers, the rovin' journeymen the horsemen, the ploughmen the matriarchs ......they were all conservatives, they all believed in god....not always the same one, but god just the same. They believed in the traditional values of personal responsibility and independence.

They sang real folk music, about pride in their work and in themselves men and women, fathers mothers the old and the young, they all had a place in the great scheme of thing.

To ask about political conservatism is meaningless, politics had no effect on these people .....only pride and survival.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 07:09 PM

Ah, nothing like a mythical golden age, is there? Bet none of them were queers either!