The singers club and proscription

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:45 PM

Away from all the side tracking and silliness.

How would proscription work today, if at all? What would you proscribe? What would or could it do to help people enjoy music?

There have been a few side issues here. Most people who like their folk music are too young to have experienced the singers' club but many like myself have had people tell dark forbidding tales of this institution. (I have, when a keen teenager had MacColl tell me off for not being indigenous when doing a floor turn at one of their bookings and that alone was enough for me.)

So. Are people saying it was good, bad or indifferent? Two hundred posts up to yet of reminiscing but nothing about its legacy.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 02:25 PM

"What would or could it do to help people enjoy music?"
You mean you need advice for that - I certainly don't? But there you go
You've already had this - but here's a part again:
"The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
It's not just a question of enjoying it - nobody has ever disputd that this is a fundamental requirement - it's what you enjoy, what you give people to enjoy and what you call what you give people to enjoy.
If you no longer enjoy folk song perhaps you should look elsewhere for your pleasure.
Calling what you do enjoy "folk" because you enjoy it just doesn't hack it - now that would be "silliness".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:55 PM

These people don't seem to understand that folk music existed long before the revival, or coffee houses for that matter.
The bothy ballad tradition goes back to the beginning of the nineteenth century, the Gaelic traditions goes back millennia
I remember concerts in our little village where the singing was all Gaelic and the audience all new how to sing along even those to whom Gaelic was a second language.
How many songwriters in Scotland today can come anywhere near to Burns Jacob, Tannahill or Henderson....old hat, dinosaurs, not a patch on Dylan or Bowie?
With the honourable exception of Davie or perhaps Dougie Mclean with his "Indigenous" CD

The Irish seem to have preserved their musical and dance traditions much better than Scotland, England or Wales....and I am sure that this is because they have been taught their own history and have a real pride in their nation.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:41 PM

The Wee Frees disapprove of a lot of things and like proscribing anything that might be fun, Shimrod I thought you might be of that persuasion my apologies for thinking you were a wee free or even a possibly a wee wee free.
Shimrod, out of curiosity do you play an instrument?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:47 PM

THE SINGERS CLUB has not left a legacy.It was ephemeral.
MacColl on the other hand has left a fine collecton of self written songs

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:16 PM

No, sadly, GSS, I don't play an instrument but I do sing - or rather, I used to sing when I had somewhere to sing. Actually, while we're on the subject of singing, it was the great Ewan MacColl himself who persuaded me that it was possible for me to sing. Many, many years ago, I attended a weekend singers' workshop that he and Ms Seeger ran, in Huntingdon of all places, and it was, for me, a key educational experience.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 02:13 AM

Thanks Jim.

I'll carry on getting my folk fix at folk clubs and folk venues. I appear to like folk music in all its wide interpretation of the genre. Including MacColl, including folk rock, including fusion, including, (and this is where it becomes the music of the people,) a podium for sharing your love of music with others without necessarily investing in pa gear and needing to get a gig. Music of the people indeed.

Just as most on here do, have done and hopefully always will do.

I am an observer of the subject title and see the singers club as part of a UK heritage. I think proscription to have been ultimately harmful and it's always saddened me to think how folk morphed into a clique in some clubs then withered. I can't help but think of the crusty idiots who sat there berating people for exhibiting what the buggers were ultimately advocating in the first place.

Proscription isn't entertainment. Folk certainly is.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 03:05 AM

Proscription and prohibition in the end always fail.The reason I chose to not visit The Singers Club was as a result of a conversation with the "great Ewan MacColl".
Whilst I was in search of good folk music I was also in search of a good time, I very quickly realised that I was not going to have a good time, in fact It appeared to me that it might be a bit like going to Sunday School.
Why would I want to spend my evenings with a man over twice my age, who on my first meeting with him appeared to be authoritarian.
I was nineteen years old, there was plenty of choice of good quality folk music in other clubs and plenty of girls of my own age in other folk clubs other than the Singers Club.
None of that alters the fact that he was a very professional and skilled performer and fine songwriter.

Great man?Chacun Sa Gout, some people think John Wesley was a great man.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 03:05 AM

Proscription and prohibition in the end always fail.The reason I chose to not visit The Singers Club was as a result of a conversation with the "great Ewan MacColl".
Whilst I was in search of good folk music I was also in search of a good time, I very quickly realised that I was not going to have a good time, in fact It appeared to me that it might be a bit like going to Sunday School.
Why would I want to spend my evenings with a man over twice my age, who on my first meeting with him appeared to be authoritarian.
I was nineteen years old, there was plenty of choice of good quality folk music in other clubs and plenty of girls of my own age in other folk clubs other than the Singers Club.
None of that alters the fact that he was a very professional and skilled performer and fine songwriter.
Great man?Chacun Sa Gout, some people think John Wesley was a great man.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 03:05 AM

Proscription and prohibition in the end always fail.The reason I chose to not visit The Singers Club was as a result of a conversation with the "great Ewan MacColl".
Whilst I was in search of good folk music I was also in search of a good time, I very quickly realised that I was not going to have a good time, in fact It appeared to me that it might be a bit like going to Sunday School.
Why would I want to spend my evenings with a man over twice my age, who on my first meeting with him appeared to be authoritarian.
I was nineteen years old, there was plenty of choice of good quality folk music in other clubs and plenty of girls of my own age in other folk clubs other than the Singers Club.
None of that alters the fact that he was a very professional and skilled performer and fine songwriter.
Great man?Chacun Sa Gout, some people think John Wesley was a great man.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 04:35 AM

"I appear to like folk music in all its wide interpretation "
The only onne you have givin is "whatever I choose to call it" - no good to me as a punter looking for folk song - bit selfish, doncha think?
I think the most telling statement so far on this thread is "finger in ear farming dirges " and the most depressing is the silence following it - "roll over the Coppers"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM

Actually, I was at a Copper Family house concert on Friday evening. Very enjoyable. Part of a busy weekend as I explained on Friday. Still a bit busy, back later.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:38 AM

"Actually, I was at a Copper Family house concert on Friday evening"
Delighted to hear it Bryan - look forward to your howls of protest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:40 AM

Hootenanny I'll take that as a "No" then. Entirely within your rights of course but it would be interesting to know.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 07:05 AM

"THE SINGERS CLUB has not left a legacy.It was ephemeral."
The residents of the Singes Club researched and launched the London repertoire into the revival, presented the Waterloo Peterloo project with their album, established theme and poetry and sing evenings evenings as far back as the mid-sixties.
Bert and Ewan, as residents, introduced Industrial songs into the revival at the beginning of the early sixties, the women residents produced 'The Female Frolic' project and album and the rest of the residents, John and Sandra, Terry Yarnell, Frankie Armstrong and Bob Blair all produced their own albums.
Ewan and Peggy released The |Long Harvest (10 albums) and Blood and Roases (4 albums) - arguably the best sets of Child ballads ever.
On Argo, Ewan, Peggy and the Critics Group co-operated with actors in producing 20 albums of poetry and song for schools ('Poetry and song (14 albums) Voices (6 albums).
The Singer residents put on 6 'living newspaper' shows (The Festival of Fools' at the end of the year which ran for two weeks each time.
Peggy produced 20-odd songbooks of newly composed songs to be sold at the club which introduced 100s of new songs into the revival from all over the world.
Ewan, with the residents of the club established a self help group for less experienced sings which led to similar being set up in various parts of the country
Our own archive includes about twenty Singers Club evenings and 200 plus recordings of Critics Group meetings, all of wich ill be archived and made available soon....... yup Dick, fairly "ephemeral.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 08:21 AM

What, pray tell Jim, would you like me to howl about?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM

"I think proscription to have been ultimately harmful ..."

Bollocks! Who did it harm?

It applied to a particular club, at a particular time - a club which had specific objectives and formulated a policy which helped it to meet those objectives.

Having said that, all of the best clubs that I attended - including the first one that I ever attended, in my home town - had policies (usually unwritten) which might be described as "proscriptive". But those policies were about taste and a common understanding of the musical genre that the members of the club (both performers and audience) were interested in and enjoyed. It was NEVER, as the 'everything-is-folk' brigade continue to insist, about compulsion or restriction.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 09:46 AM

"The reason I chose to not visit The Singers Club was as a result of a conversation with the "great Ewan MacColl"... Why would I want to spend my evenings with a man over twice my age, who on my first meeting with him appeared to be authoritarian."

As I thought! This is really a MacColl knocking thread, isn't it, GSS? Even though he's been dead for over a quarter of a century, you still hate him, don't you? I wonder if, before you met him, a few of your wannabee-LeadBelly/Guthrie/Dylan mates had told you that he was an evil man who TOLD OTHER PEOPLE WHAT THEY COULD or COULDN'T SING (horror)!!??

At your next gig you will need to look closely at the audience because his ghost might be among them marking your performance out of ten! Scary stuff!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 10:19 AM

"As I thought! This is really a MacColl knocking thread, "
It was a bloody joke - the idea that he would insult an album by Peggy and Tom Paley seriously while Peggy was on stage is bloody nonsense - they were long term partners and respected each others work absolutely - Dick's "experience" defies all logic.
Ewan actually gave me the album, among others while I was doing electrical work there - I still have the copy signed by both of them
Some people really do need a sense-of-humour transplant, but it's a great example of how these rumours get started
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:13 PM

How would proscription work today, if at all? What would you proscribe? What would or could it do to help people enjoy music?

It seems to be ubiquitous in my local 70s-nostalgia guys-with-guitars scene. If you turn up to try anything traditional (i.e. not in the Neil Young/Eagles/Dylan/Richard Thompson/Ralph McTell idiom) you won't get formally told off for it, you'll just get cold-shouldered by prats who put their guitars down and make no attempt to pick the piece up, however simple it may be. So you won't try for very long.

It works. It means those guys are heading for the eventide home in the safe knowledge that they'll never be challenged to learn anything that isn't already in their record collection. They enjoy it that way.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:18 PM

I do not hate anyone.Neither am I knocking anyone, i am explaining why I decided not to go to the singers club, it seems like Musket had a similiar experience.
Jim, you are once again incorrect with your facts, it was not that album at all it was an album by Mike and Peggy Seeger.
Ewan was a fine songwriter and a very skilled performer, Shimrod thinks he was a great man, chacun sa gout.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:28 PM

Jim, the other inaccuracy in your post, they were not on stage together. Peggy was busy in conversation with someone else[ as I have explained to you at least once before]it was the break at half time, I know what happened, I was there, you were not there.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 07:10 PM

"Mike and Peggy Seeger."
Doesn't matter - tyhe same thing stanmds, even more so - Mike wasn't just a regular guest, he was Peggy's brother - your story just doesn't hold water - it was a joke
"I was there, you were not there."
I knew both of them forr over twenty years (still see Peggy) you did not
I get tired of sneery sides from someone who nether knew the man nor cared for his singing
You can repeat your "praise" of Ewan's songwriting as many times as you like - doesn't mean a thing to me, I really don't care what you thought of him as a singer, songwriter gardener, scrabble-player.....
I've given you a list of what we did at the club you described as "ephemeral"
Address that, if you must - not really interested in any more sniding
You once threw a wobbler when I had the temerity to say what I thought of your singing (after I became extremely tired of your constant self-promoting) - yet you feel free to snide ad snipe at someone who has been dead for over a quarter of a century =- give us a break Dick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 07:15 PM

Meanwhile, tonight at a folk club..

I doubt any of the 70+ people in the room would have recognised some of the self serving arrogance on here. Everything from what Jim Carroll and two or three more would grudgingly call folk to songs the other few hundred on Mudcat would call folk. Yet I doubt few if any had heard of the singers club or indeed Mudcat.

GSS asked at the outset if proscription has any place in clubs. Sure, if you want to fuck up successful music venues!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 03:37 AM

"Yet I doubt few if any had heard of the singers club or indeed Mudcat."

Yes, 'R Sole', ignorance is bliss - especially to the wilfully ignorant!

Charming name, by the way, but I should point out that it does very little for your credibility.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 04:27 AM

"I doubt any of the 70+ people in the room would have recognised some of the self serving arrogance on here"
And I doubt if anybody who turn up for traditional music in the five sessions a week at our local pubs would recognise what you describe as folk music - whoops, apologies, you haven't actually given a description of what we'd find if we made an effort to turn up to your club other than "whatever we choose to put on" - no way to run a piss-up - in a brewery or anywhere else.
I am into folk music to promote folk music, not to put bums on seats for any old kind of music.
If you ask me what kind of music I mean by folk, I'll gladly tell you in as much detail a you want, or I'll point out to you where you can fing recordings of it or hundreds of collections of folk songs - or even record labels over the last dive decades devoted to it,; Topic, Folkways; Tangent; Claddagh, Library of Congress Smithsonian.....
Or books on it - The Ballad and the Folk; Folk Songs of the Upper Thames; English Folk Song, Some Conclusions; Folk Songs of the Northeast; THe Greig Duncan Folksong Collection (8 large volumes of that one!!!!).....   
If I wanted to learn about your "folk music", where can I find the information, who is there to explain it to me?
You certainly haven't.
When we interviewed MacColl, he said, "the greatest threat to the future of folk song is if it falls into the hands of people who don't like it"; "finger in ear farming dirges " suggest to me that it might have and Muskie's rather despicable attacks on elderly traditional singers rather confirm that.
What on earth type of music are you talking about - if you are unable to describe it and justify your description of it, how can you claim it has a future other than, whatever we choose to put on next week.
At least you have had the bottle to describe your club as a "music venue".... it certainly isn't a folk club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 04:55 AM

Bryan - look forward to your howls of protest.

For the second time of asking, Jim, what are you suggesting I howl about?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 05:56 AM

I met Ewan a number of times, I booked them at my folk club, I did a support for them at a concert and had a long conversation with both of them they were pleasant and polite on all those occasions.
A relative of mine experienced their helpfulness and generosity, all this I have explained to you before.
I mentioned the reason why I did not choose to go to the singers club.,

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 06:48 AM

"For the second time of asking, Jim, what are you suggesting I howl about?"
For the second time - I gave you a quote from one of the protagonists here describing the type of singing Bob Copper regaled us with for so long as ""finger in ear farming dirges " .
Can only say, he wouldn't have got away with it in my day - maybe it's o.k. down there in Lewes.
I have a recording here of a meeting held circa 1965 in London to discuss the folk scene.
During its course, a leading folkie, who shall be nameless for fear of upsetting his friend, described Jeannie Robertson as an appalling singer - the meaning erupted into anger and ended up in chaos.
How I long for the days when folk song elicited a bit of passion!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 08:14 AM

Correction to my earlier posts. Which should read,chacun à son goût.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 08:40 AM

Must admit, following a bit of potential drift, that I could never greatly admire Jeannie Robertson's performances. She certainly had fine clear voice & diction, & strong dramatic sense; but not all the mannerisms rang true to me. I have heard it suggested by other Scots that they suspected she had been got at by Hamish Henderson, who seems to have been ambivalently regarded by some, to sing in the manner he considered correct for a traditional Scots singer.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 08:41 AM

... Relevant here, it seems to me, as another instance of 'proscription'.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 09:04 AM

Don't disagree with that Mike, Jeannie became a victim of collectors who told her that her slow, drawn out style of singing was magnificent and here singing became slower and slower - compare some of the earliest recordings (don't think it was down to Hamish, b. t. w.
But that's a bit beside the point really; singers like Jeannie were not part of our folkie world - you don't go to them, ask them for their songs, then pull their singing apart publicly - it's both ungracious and, certainly from the point of view of a collector, self destructive - not the way to win songs and influence people.
We had a nasty 'incident' some time ago when a reviewer took the opportunity while reviewing one of our albums of field recordings, to take revenge for past differences, which included virtually ignoring the singers and their songs (in probably the longest review I've ever read), or taking a pop at them personally - "why does he sound like a woman" is not the type of thing you say about an elderly West Clare farmer.
It meant that we were reluctant to follow up the work we had originally done with that particular man, which lost us access to his manuscript collection of songs.
The behaviour was repeated by the publication some years later with another group of singers and another collector.
Don't know if any of the singers, or their relatives saw any of the reviews, but it shouldn't have happened - as I say, their agenda is not ours.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 09:08 AM

Jim the person who used the phrase "finger in ear farming dirges " signs on as GUEST,R Sole. I gave them the attention I thought they deserved. Looking back, I see that they made no mention of the Coppers. The only person to associate them with the phrase was you -
I think the most telling statement so far on this thread is "finger in ear farming dirges " and the most depressing is the silence following it - "roll over the Coppers"
Are you saying that you think that the Copper Family sing "finger in ear farming dirges "?

maybe it's o.k. down there in Lewes.
I have never heard anyone in a folk club audience say anything of the sort.

Changing the subject slightly, I came across this interesting page. It's amazing what you find when you are looking for something else.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 09:45 AM

Bryan,
I have a copy of that book if you would like to read it in its entirety. I could also email you a copy of the review that I wrote of it in fRoots which surprised me from the number of positive emails that I got for the review from prominent people in traditional song circles.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 10:43 AM

To The Snail;

Thanks for the link to that as you rightly call it "interesting page".

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 11:20 AM

"I gave them the attention I thought they deserved".
It's an often expressed point of view, "finger in ear" "drony old singers", "tit trousers", "boring old songs, "too-long ballads".... all expressing a dislkike of the songs and occasionally the people who were generous to give them to us - just thought we owed it to make an effort, whoever expresses it - maybe not.   
"Are you saying that you think that the Copper Family sing "finger in ear farming dirges "?
Tsk Bryan - bit beneath you - you know damn well I'm not - I object to eejits summing up folk song in that manner, which is what this particular braindead was doing
Thanks for the link - haven't managed to find the time to read the book in full yet
Had to smile about John being regarded as one of the best Irish fiddlers though - not sure by who.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 12:40 PM

It was interesting, but I am still puzzled, I got the impression from the article, that it was not just the residents of the club but all the singers to which the policy applied, is that correct or incorrect, Jim?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 01:06 PM

"was not just the residents of the club but all the singers to which the policy applied, is that correct or incorrect, Jim?"
May have ben fifty yars ago Dick - I wasn't around at the time
I fist attended the Singers in November 1963 (the day after Kennedy was shot).
Have to say there wasn't much sign of it then, but certainly, when I began to get down to London more often a few years later, it was as Peggy said it was, for the residents only.
I seem to remember that Long John Baldry had been a guest at the singers around then - I know Ewan admired him as a singer.
As I say - in my time it was never a rule, it was a guide.
I would have no great objection if it was compulsory for all singers in the very early days, Ewan and Bert were trying to get the British repertoire off the launching pad, but once it was established there was room to relax.
I found it interesting to read how the audiences dropped off when the club became a policy one, then built up again.
I remember being torned away from The Pindar of Wakefield because there was no room and having to queue at other times.
I queued for an hour to get into see Ewan and Peggy at Samson and Barlow's in Liverpool and had to book in advance when they came to Manchester.
Whenever I saw them at The singers, they played to more-or-less full houses. The Singers - a sign for me that whatever they did before I saw them, it seems to have worked, which seems to contradict any claim that a policy club drove people away.
If you say that things have changed and it wouldn't work today, fine, it seems to make my point that the revival has divorced itself from folk music. unless, of course, you are arguing that folk song no longer has a relevance - different argument altogether.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 02:51 PM

Change is inevitable, but I couldnt be definite about whether it would or would not, in some places proscription works, maybe in others it wouldnt, but you are right there are many forms of proscription.
lets face it blues clubs proscribe too, I could not go into a Blues club sing a traditional ballad or a Shanty and expect to be asked to sing the next week.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 03:04 PM

No Point scoring, no pissing contest, but I don't think the maths in the above posting add up.

It might be of interest to those not aware of the facts and who read the pages referred to above but Long John Baldry was one of the London practioners of Blues during the 1960's and his bookings were handled by Malcolm Nixon from at least 1960 until 1965. He was a regular performer at the Ballads & Blues Club and in fact headlined on the last night.

I have seen it suggested that the "Cockney blues singer" that Peggy found amusing was Long John. Anybody that knew John should be able to detect that he was no Cockney.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 03:18 PM

he was born in east haddon, is that northants?
Jim, The singers club had high quality residents, they also would have benefited from TV coverage, Two contributory factors towards success. The fact that everyone was striving to learn new songs and not repeat themselves was a good policy, and Ewan was right to encourage and promote that, everyone was practising and trying to improve, that is good in any genre of folk music whether it blues or Traditional indigenous, Ballads OR Shanties OR Bothy ballads

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 05:07 PM

"Are you saying that you think that the Copper Family sing "finger in ear farming dirges "?
Tsk Bryan - bit beneath you - you know damn well I'm not - I object to eejits summing up folk song in that manner, which is what this particular braindead was doing
Jim, R.Sole did not mention the Coppers. You did.

It's an often expressed point of view, "finger in ear" "drony old singers", "tit trousers", "boring old songs, "too-long ballads".... all expressing a dislkike of the songs and occasionally the people who were generous to give them to us - just thought we owed it to make an effort, whoever expresses it - maybe not.
But you love it Jim because it give you more ammunition in your campaign against current folk club organiser with your conviction (despite any amount of evidence to the contrary) "that the revival has divorced itself from folk music." Life is too short to bother with the R.Soles of this world, or the Muskets for that matter (although there only seems to be one of him these days). You have a certain amount of status and can do (and are doing) far more damage than they ever could.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 07:42 PM

"But you love it Jim because it give you more ammunition in your campaign against current folk club organiser"
Why do you do this Bryan?
I have never ever mentioned "organisers" my criticism is the way the sene as gone
Rather than respond to what I have actual;ly said - you invent a scenario.
You said some time ag that you "didn't have time" to respond what I put of of our MacColl inteview now you have time - still no response to what I put up
You were too bus#y last week - still no response - just smokescreens of your own creation.
You don't agree with what I say, fine, kindly have the balls to tell me why ad stop ducking and diving.
R.sole made a statement that is fairly common yet you still don't have the bottle to condemn it outright.
Very praiseworthy, I'm sure - akes me want to rush to join the queue to get into your club!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 03:10 AM

Why, do you do it, Jim? you belittle folk clubs, you rarely visit them, and when you occasionally visit one, for example THE CELLAR UPSTAIRS, your experience is completely different from mine, yet you persist in attempting to give the impression that it is ALWAYS crap, when you know perfectly well that it is the haunt of professional musicians like Tom Paley.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 03:35 AM

"you persist in attempting to give the impression that it is ALWAYS crap, "
Why do you do this Dick- why do you lie?
I have never said that the Cellar Upstairs is ALWAYS crap - £1000 to your favourite charity if you can produce a single example of my saying so.
I said that my last visit there was disappointing, I said why and have now accepted that I hit it on a bad night and apologised.
The people I hang out with are the type who are gracious enough to accept apologies - I doubt if you will ever be one of them.
Now how about your producing an example of my saying what you claim or an apology for your accusation - I won't hold my breath - you don't seem to be that sort of feller.
Your post is fairly typical of the nonsense that has been aimed at me here - that I want to close down music venues, that I want a purist folk scene, that I have invented my own definition of folk song, that I don't like other music, that I want clubs that perform only folk songs...... all inventions, every single one of them.
And above all, the refusal to respond to what I have actually said (an occasional promise that they will "when they have time", but so far, nothing but somewhat defensive nastiness).
The dishonesty of these arguments always astounds me and leaves me with a desire to open all the windows and let some fresh air in.
What have these people got against folk music if they have to go to such lengths to avoid straightforward discussion?
Now - how about a withdrawal of what you have just said - on second thought, I suppose an apology was a bit too much to ask from you!!
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 04:50 AM

Missed a bit:
That I am embarked on a "campaign against current folk club organiser"
All 'makkie ups', as the Scots Travellers say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 07:24 AM

what a lot of twaddle,in my opinion you have an agenda, and this 0pinion is based on your haste to be negative about folk clubs, the perfect example was the cellar upstairs, you very rarely visit folk clubs, your experience is very limited yet you RUSH to post with something negative which gives the impression [my words were give an impression] that it is always like it was on your one visit.
the damage was done before your apology, think, before you post.
I believe that you do want folk clubs only to perform folk songs, [you have made remarks in the past about what it says on the tin]I believe you are purist, I do not believe you want to shut down music venues.         
I too have opinions about what folk clubs should be promoting, and in my experience there are some good[ A SUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT BASED ON TATE] folk clubs and some not so good, in 50 years it was always that way.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 07:50 AM

No apology, no withdrawal of lie, no conversation
Go away and promote yourself |Dick - it' what you do most
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 08:29 AM

Jim, I spend most of my time on an unpaid basis as a Festival organiser.