BS: An Easter Question

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 06:03 PM

Good point, Paul. Not every Catholic lives In a cosy, middle-class American suburb. Not every Catholic has the advantage of a lengthy seminary education. I should think that the Pope's subtle nuances would be lost on quite a few Catholics in quite a few less prosperous nations.


Joe...?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 06:31 PM


Well you must be feeling very disappointed, Joe. Next to nothing, as expected, just some soft words

This Guardian article finds more in it than that. True, it hasn't reversed the stance on some of the things we would both wish it had, but for example there are 'comments welcomed by some LGBT organisations' (but not others, of course). It also pushes a lot of decision making down to a local level, a decentralisation I approve of.

And I found these two paragraphs of the article interesting:

======
Peter Doyle, the chair of the bishops' committee for marriage and family life, said the document was "very exciting, embracing everyone whatever their situation. Some people will be disappointed that it is not full of black and white solutions, but as Pope Francis says every situation is different and needs to be approached with love, mercy and openness of heart."

Matthew McCusker, of the conservative organisation Voice of the Family, said there were "grave problems" with the document, which failed "to give a clear and faithful exposition of Catholic doctrine".

=====

Both sides speaking there about a topic we raise time and again and was implicitly in Greg F's recent post: the church rarely gives black and white rules, and it doesn't here. It is Catholic's responsibility to think through how the teachings apply to whatever situation they are in. Black and white absolutism is simply mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 06:44 PM

" It is Catholic's responsibility to think through how the teachings apply to whatever situation they are in."

Really? And exactly what proportion of the alleged billion Catholics on this planet know that?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 06:55 PM

Or DO that.

And I don't mean to pick on Catholics - plenty of examples in other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 09:58 PM

I think the Pope was true to form in his statement that was published today. He emphasizes the primacy of conscience, and stays away from shallow legalism. If one views life in legalistic terms, this does become very complicated, because there are no black-and-white answers in difficult situations. There once was a system of moral theology called casuistry that tried to come up with black-and-white answers for every possible moral question. It was ridiculously complicated, and sometimes came up with ludicrously impossible answers. I'm glad they stopped teaching casuistry before I got into the seminary.

For most people, however, making moral decisions is fairly simple: stop and consider the situation, and then look into your heart and decide what you truly believe is the right thing to do - and then do that thing.

That's what the Pope is saying. I suppose there are "subtle nuances" involved in this method of decision making, but most human beings are capable of subtle nuances - unless they are bogged down in legalism and absolutism.

Warning: this line of thinking will not work for those who can only see black and white.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 02:21 AM


"It is Catholic's responsibility to think through how the teachings apply to whatever situation they are in."

Really? And exactly what proportion of the alleged billion Catholics on this planet know that?

[Then Greg]

Or DO that.

And I don't mean to pick on Catholics - plenty of examples in other religions.


Less than should, agreed. But you are right that it not just Catholics: all humans, of every belief and none, are liable to react to things based on preconceptions rather than the situation in front of them.

And how many know Catholics know that it their responsibility to do this? Well, it is stressed in this document for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 03:12 AM

I think a huge and increasing number of people DO need guidance in their lives, if only to combat the "guidance" supplied by the media and the political system.

I don't agree Joe, that it can all be left to "conscience" or people doing the "right" thing, the playing field is far off the level for that especially where legislation is concerned.
The media for the most part now control how people think, few make up their own minds through "conscience" or any other reason.

It seems to me that "moral guidance" is more relevant today than at any other time in history.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 03:22 AM

Ah, but Joe, 'making moral decisions' is a minefield. Looking into one's heart and doing what one feels is right relies solely upon the mindset of one's 'moral compass'. Many have done what they considered 'the right thing to do' with utterly disastrous consequences. If it were all as simple as that, society would need no rules at all. The prisons would be empty and we'd be living in Utopia. My husband's poor female relatives were brutally mutilated because the head of the family (grandfather) thought 'it was the right thing to do'.

As part of my three-year MA degree, I spent a fabulous year studying Moral Philosophy as a module. One of the many topics we were asked to discuss was the need for rules, and whether there is such a thing as self-evident truth and the Absolute Good. The fact is, these ideas are nebulous and open to myriad interpretations. Religion, society and even family life needs structure, boundaries and controls, or everyone would be practising a sort of personal anarchy. The problem lies with which rules are applied. Every religion has its own list ('Do not put the purificator into the washing machine...') I tend to agree with Pope Francis in that I try to use my own common sense and ideas of what is right in my actions and decisions, but I can see only too well the pitfalls in this approach. I bet Hitler thought he was the saviour of Germany...

In our church (as in many) there's a huge pair of wooden boards up on the wall with the Ten Commandments writ large. As a basis for leading one's life they aren't all that bad, however it's the small things that need clarifying, but how?

When I pray I ask for 1) wisdom and 2) kindness. It sounds great, but whose wisdom? And what constitutes being kind? Giving a tenner to a begging drug-addict (so he can buy his next fix?) Not sending a violent man to prison 'because he's had a difficult childhood'. (Giving him the idea that his actions aren't terribly wrong?)
Whether one is an atheist or an ardent believer in some form of God, the ethics of daily life are almost impossible to navigate. And the older I get, the more I can see the problem!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 03:23 AM

Moral guidance is certainly necessary, Ake. That's one of the things I've done as a religious educator for children and adults for almost 50 years. But it's far better to teach and discuss moral principles and how to apply those moral principles, than it is to impose rules and expect people to obey them mindlessly.
People need to understand what they're doing and the implications of what they do.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 03:53 AM

Let me go a little further. I think that true morality is based on logic, not on arbitrary rules. It is an attempt to explore the consequences of what we do - consequences to ourselves, to the people close to us, and to the wider community and the world and our environment. When I teach morality, I try to take people beyond rules and into doing something constructive and creative and positive.

Most people catch on, and the discussion can be lively and fruitful.

Morality can be fun.

Oh, and it applies to everyone, no matter what they believe.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 06:13 AM

I find it rather difficult to accept that those whose morality is predicated on their religious upbringing can safely be put the position of moral educators. Not the Pope, that's for sure, who endorses his own organisation's immoral teachings on birth control, contraception, sexual practices and abortion, and who rubber stamps lies about miracles and apparitions. I don't want any moral guidance from someone who peddles all that, thank you. Moral guidance emanating from religious belief has caused a huge amount of misery in this world. Religion and people of religion need to be severely kept out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 11:28 AM

Re keeping foreskins, I was told they were planted and nurtured till full grown and they then took their place in the house of commons

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 11:42 AM

Moral Philosophy was one of my favourite modules of my degree.
Probably the study which had most lasting impact on my personal outlook and understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 12:01 PM

then took their place in the house of commons

Not the Lords?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 12:19 PM

Now as a modern liberal minded progressive thinking kind of bloke,
I'd still be very reluctant to touch another man's penis for any reason..

[ok.. I had to once when working as an untrained hospital orderly, dumped in at the deep end..
A patient with both arms amputated needed to be taken for a piss..
.. of course we weren't issued disposable gloves - it was the early 80s..]

So it's 'interesting' how obsessed they were in once upon a time long ago Bible Land
with collecting bulk quantity foreskins from fallen enemy warriors...???

.. and that'd be manhandling the privates of dead soldiers who's knobs hadn't been anywhere near soap and water for who knows how long..
.. and in that desert heat...!!!

.. and you only have to think just how bad one modern day teenage boys bedroom can stink..

That certainly takes collecting as a hobby to obsessive extremes....????? 😬

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 03:53 PM

Don't think I'd want David living in MY neighborhood, PFR.

King or not, the guy had some real issues. And what would happen if he were to see my wife sunbathing?

-Joe-