 sj |
||
|
||
BS: An Easter Question
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Senoufou Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:34 AM Hahaha Doug! Joseph of Aremethea (spelling?) may have put some clothes, a toothbrush and a pair of sandals in a little box labelled 'for later use by JC' in a corner of the tomb when he completed it. Good idea! I too find it odd that the Romans didn't record Jesus' conviction and execution. Granted there were numerous anti-Roman rebels going about in those times, but none who healed the sick and performed miracles. And Pontius Pilate himself washing his hands in front of the crowds tells us that Jesus was rather important. The Romans were great ones for documentation, so it is strange there's nothing about it in their records. Also, once rumours began that Jesus wasn't dead after all, you'd have thought the Romans would have been livid that the execution hadn't been correctly carried out, and have carried out exhaustive investigations. I did a short course quite recently on Cathedral Architecture in UK and Europe; completely fascinating. I know Durham Cathedral well. (love the Sanctuary Knocker) I've also visited several huge mosques abroad, and they can be stunningly beautiful (the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, and the Great Mosque at Kairouan in Tunisia for example) But I think these things tend to limit God to a building or place, whereas to me, he's everywhere. Like Martini ("any time any place anywhere...") I reckon God gets a bit fed up with me, as I'm always questioning things, and getting on his nerves about suffering. I'm not as reverend as perhaps I should be. I once considered becoming a C of E nun; one of my friends nearly died laughing. She threatened to tell the Mother Superior all about me. I made many retreats but in the end, I chose the world rather than a convent. I've never regretted that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Raggytash Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:40 AM It's a bit strange that the Sanctuary Knocker is seemingly so Pagan in design. But there you go, the church has never been backward when it comes to pinching other faiths bits and piece, Easter for example. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:45 AM Talking of Sicily, Jim, one of the nicest places we went to was the tiny church just outside Taormina, Chiesa Madonna della Rocca (reached via an energetic walk up hundreds of steps from the town, used to justify the giant ice cream you've just eaten). It looks like nothing much from the outside, just an unassuming little entrance built into the hillside. Plenty of the usual Catholic paraphernalia inside, as ever, but not too distasteful for a change. Parts of the ceiling and walls are actually the rock face and it's a haven of peace and quiet and coolness out of the sun. Generally speaking, we found the Catholic churches in that part of Sicily to be charmless places full of scary side chapels, ugly altars and glowering statues of no artistic merit, designed to subdue, I'd say. I haven't been to the Monreale one, but we'll be back there soon. We never pass up the opportunity of looking round any church that's open. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Doug Chadwick Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:04 AM Hello all. I've been resurrected from a 'defunct' Eliza and come back as a member - Senoufou! When you were resurrected, did you notice if you were you wearing any clothes?; or, at least, different ones than before? You should be in the position to answer the Easter Question from personal experience. :-) DC |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Raggytash Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:10 AM I'm surprised that people haven't taken up the notion that the church of England stole many churches and cathedrals from the catholics. I'm also surprised that the catholics haven't tried to get the best one's back. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:34 AM "What I find most fascinating is that adherents to the major religions also often have underlying, more primitive beliefs in magical events and beings." There's an almost irresistible inclination to explain unexplained things by resorting to belief in magic. It appeals to the romance in the soul, a delicious need to feel slightly scared (as you do when watching a horror movie), and, somewhat more depressingly, it's an intellectual get-out from having to do the hard work of looking for what's really true. I was once hoisted, unwillingly, on to a stage by a magician who needed a stooge, having been vociferously "volunteered" by my mischievous in-laws. In the half hour I was up there, I watched him like a hawk close up, but I failed to rumble a single trick. At one point he borrowed my watch, which he put into a pair of tights which he then whirled around in the air, periodically smashing the end with my watch inside down on the stage. He then returned my watch to me, totally unscathed. But did I go backstage afterwards to bow down in awe of his supernatural powers? No, I did not. He and I, and the rest of the audience, were co-conspirators in his sorcery, which, of course, had a perfectly normal explanation that we were not going to seek and he was not going to give. Spot the similarity with religious belief in the supernatural. The difference being that he wasn't going to claim to be a latter-day Jesus and we weren't going to think that his "magic" was anything other then skilful trickery. The real magic is that the world and the universe are full of wonderful, mind-blowing phenomena, life on earth being just one, amazing in its diversity, its sheer complexity and, in whatever way you want to interpret the word, its beauty. But the most amazing thing of all is that it can all be explained by the ordinary laws of nature. There has never been a single example of a phenomenon that has needed any supernatural gloss put on it, except for the fake ones such as apparitions of virgins and ghostly hauntings, promoted by dishonest people with some advantage to gain. The joy of living is to keep looking for what is really true, not settling for dismal and childish superstitions that have been invented for no other reason but to shackle our minds, control us and stunt our intellects. If there really was a God, he'd hate that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:47 AM I was just about to post when I noticed something wrong with my 'name' in the 'From: box' It said "punkpeoplerocker" !!??? Then I noticed a little balloon at the top of my browser page saying something to the effect that "This page has been translated"...????? what ?? why ??? by who ???? mankind or gods ???? It's a MIRACLE....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:54 AM The miracle of Peckham episode of 'Only fools and horses' was on last night. Brilliant :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:54 AM ..... what I was going to post was... It'd make an interesting bank holiday TV special to challenge leading celebrity magicians to do the Jesus miracles in a live broadcast. Ideally using only the materials and technology available in that region 2000 years ago... Though I'd be surprised if a program like this hasn't already been done by the likes of Mythbusters...??? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 16 - 07:07 AM Jesus had an audience of suckers who wanted to believe. A stage magician is confronted by a bunch of sceptics who are looking for him to betray his secrets, though secretly they hope he won't. Not even if he's Tommy Cooper. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 16 - 07:17 AM Hmmmm.. a religion founded on Tommy Cooper...??? now you're talking... 😜 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Mar 16 - 07:24 AM It could be done. Just like that... :D tG |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:02 AM "It could be done." Probably end up with water being turned into -- water, if my memory of Tommy Cooper serves me right! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:12 AM Placing the jesus miracles in historical / cultural context... If I was a proper academic researcher, I'd be seeking documented records of the nature of the bible land entertainment industry before and during the roman occupation.... Were there known popular entertainers, and did they include travelling conjures, hypnotists, and clairvoyants amongst their ranks...??? Also any crossover between 'magicians and their accomplices, and criminal gangs of fraudulent 'tricksters'... Finding all this out makes sense to me.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Senoufou Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:26 AM Doug, being so old as to be almost senile, it's quite probable that I forgot to look to see if I was wearing any clothes. I have been known to go out in the car wearing my slippers. Regarding the Sanctuary Knocker on the great west door of Durham cathedral, and its pagan style, our cathedral in Norwich has loads of green man bosses around the cloisters and above the nave. I really love the green man, and have several representations of him around our home. In Norfolk (and I'm sure elsewhere) straw dollies representing a John Barleycorn type of being are used to decorate churches during harvest festivals. And you've only got to think of Hallowe'en and all its trappings to realise that the pagan is intertwined with the Christian in lots of ways. I wonder if Dynamo (the excellent magician who does amazing things around the world) could be persuaded to try reproducing the water-into-wine thing? He walked on water on the Thames, so maybe he'd find it quite simple. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 16 - 11:38 AM Jesus' tricks. Most were just healing people. The water into wine was not for an audience. It was to save the host's humiliation and so was secret at the time. Loaves and fishes. Wherever they came from the folk were fed in a remote place. Walking on water. Again no audience but his disciples, who believed in Him anyway. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 16 - 11:52 AM Seriously, so if there was no audience.. that can also be taken to mean there were no witnesses... ??? .. so we just take their word for it... ??? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 16 - 12:42 PM Yep! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 16 - 12:43 PM The water walking and wine changing tricks were those most mentioned here. No witnesses, but just two of the many tricks. The loaves and fishes trick had thousands. Most of the tricks involved healing people and they were usually well witnessed, although Jesus sometimes asked recipients not to tell. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 16 - 01:11 PM They were well witnessed according to the people who wrote the stories down long after Jesus allegedly died, at least 40 years or more. There is no corroboration, and the writers were arguably biased. Keith, this fails your much-vaunted historicity test on several counts: too many years had passed, the writers are dead and there is no corroboration. On top of that, we are talking about highly unlikely acts of magic. Well, Keith, it's good to know that even you can suspend disbelief... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Senoufou Date: 30 Mar 16 - 01:18 PM I do see that Jesus was tremendously compassionate, and was often moved by the plight of, say, lepers, or the blind. He healed quite a large number of folk during his ministry. What I can't get my head round (and bombard God with in my prayers) is why he seems to let people the world over go on suffering appallingly, doing absolutely zilch in the way of eradicating their distress & agony. OK, there are some successes at Lourdes, and some prayers are answered, but generally speaking, people (and even little children) suffer most terribly from famine, disease, terror, disabilities etc while God looks down unmoved. If Jesus and God are the same chap, why has this compassion not been put into operation? And why should just one person's ardent prayers be answered but others get no response? Why should one sick child be healed but all the others go on suffering? Surely if Jesus could heal ten lepers at one go, he could have healed the blooming lot of everything and done the job properly? And when one considers the Holocaust... where was God in all that eh? Just a spectator? I can almost hear God groaning when I begin my nightly prayers! "Oh Lord here she is again! That nagging old biddy!" while the angels get him a cup of tea and a digestive biscuit. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Greg F. Date: 30 Mar 16 - 02:38 PM And when one considers the Holocaust Obviouisly, Jesus was a Jew-hating antisemite. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Raggytash Date: 30 Mar 16 - 03:49 PM "I do see that Jesus was tremendously compassionate" I'm puzzled Senoufou. How can you say this when there is no contemporary record of Jesus having ever existed. All the documentation regarding Jesus was written decades (and in some cases hundreds of years) after he is supposed to have lived. Now, some Christian teaching could be seen as compassionate........... Again I have stopped myself because I am being a good boy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Senoufou Date: 30 Mar 16 - 04:08 PM raggytash, I see what you mean. I expect I should have said, "The Bible tells us that Jesus was compassionate..." We're now heading towards Pentecost, and the rushing wind, flames on the disciples' heads, and the speaking with tongues etc. Now that does interest me, as I'm absolutely obsessed with languages and heartily wish I could speak many more than I actually do. I have been confirmed in the C of E, and had to wear a veil (rather High Church). I didn't feel anything special when the bishop put his hand on my head, but I was only ten years old. Sigh. I honestly just don't know about all of this. I keep thinking about that brilliant film 'The Life Of Brian'. As I'm pretty old now, no doubt I shall find out the truth in the not too far distant future! I sometimes tease my husband about his 57 virgins that Muslims are supposed to get when they arrive in Paradise. I can watch him cavorting with them up there while I munch my crumpets and drink my Old Speckled Hen ale, chatting with some nice angels. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Raggytash Date: 30 Mar 16 - 04:23 PM Senoufou, That, for some bizarre reason, is a very endearing picture. Thank you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 16 - 04:30 PM "He healed quite a large number of folk during his ministry. What I can't get my head round (and bombard God with in my prayers) is why he seems to let people the world over go on suffering appallingly, doing absolutely zilch in the way of eradicating their distress & agony." The simplest explanation, nay, the most obvious, is that he did neither. "OK, there are some successes at Lourdes" In the immortal words of my dad, the day I hear of a one-legged man coming back from Lourdes with two legs is the day i start to believe in miracles. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:18 PM My poor eyes can't cope with capital I and lower-case i on this soddin' iPad. Order me a hearse, somebody. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:55 PM Steve, I was just joining the debate. You stated, "Jesus had an audience of suckers who wanted to believe. " Did that "fail your much-vaunted historicity test on several counts:?" Well, Steve, it's good to know that even you can suspend disbelief... I pointed out that he did not seek and often did not have an audience. In reply to PFR stating, "Seriously, so if there was no audience.. that can also be taken to mean there were no witnesses... ??? You replied "YEP!" Did that "fail your much-vaunted historicity test on several counts:?" Well, Steve, it's good to know that even you can suspend disbelief... The case being made by you and others being that if he performed for an audience it means He was a fake, and if he performed without an audience it means He was a fake. According to the NT, He was tempted to use the power of miracles to make everyone believe in Him, but He chose not to. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 16 - 09:42 PM not exactly... if he performed for an audience he may or may not have been a fake. If he performed without an audience there is only the word of a select few acolytes that he ever even performed at all.. These accounts are gathered from a redacted book which may or may not have been inspired by a true story...??? Cue Hollywood disclaimers.. "This movie may or may not be based on a true story, and characters may or may not be fictitious depending on how heavily lawyered up they are and ready and prepared to sue our pants off..." 😜 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Jeri Date: 30 Mar 16 - 10:04 PM Far out! We've never, ever had an argument about religion here before. (meh) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Mar 16 - 11:57 PM I don't know of many Christian denominations that believe that God is gonna come down and fix stuff. I suppose that some do. Most Christian denominations believe that the grace of God is supposed to inspire individuals to break through the status quo and fix stuff - but it's up to individuals to respond to that grace. I think most most denominations believe that grace is available to all, no matter what they do or don't believe. So, if there's evil in the world, it's up to good people to fix it. Why blame God? As for Jesus and his miracles, I don't know. I tend to believe in them, but I've read that there were many faith healers at the time who did things that appeared to be miracles. Whatever the case, I think it's most important for human beings to take responsibility for the evil that exists in this world, and it's our responsibility to do our best to fix it - no matter what we do or don't believe. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Senoufou Date: 31 Mar 16 - 02:44 AM Interesting Joe. I don't think people expect God to come down and fix stuff, but rather, they wonder why he doesn't. After all, he's supposed to be able to do anything isn't he? And as for the idea that it's up to the good people to overcome the evil in the world, that's not always possible is it? At least, not at our present level of technology and medical advancement. Scientists have been struggling with malaria for centuries, but although it's said we're on the brink of a vaccine, it's not available yet. Ditto with cancer, HIV, and a myriad other dangerous and ghastly diseases. I have seen some sights and had some experiences in Africa which would make anyone weep. And who 'created' these diseases? Allegedly, a 'father-like' and benevolent deity, who seems not to weep at all. I also consider terrible drought, famine, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes and other major disasters. No human being is responsible for those, and there's very little we can do about them. How can God watch the suffering they cause without feeling immense pity and sorrow? Jesus said in the Bible God can move mountains, demolish and rebuild temples etc. Then why doesn't he intervene and protect us? My Muslim husband is far more submissive and accepting of God. He just says everything is 'the will of Allah' and we mustn't question it. He's always saying 'insh Allah' even when I merely say "We'll go up the city tomorrow'. ie it's entirely up to God what does or doesn't happen, and everything he decides is good. When his young brother died in agony of cerebral malaria after three days of suffering, the family comforted themselves by saying it was 'the will of God'. It's a bit like the typical British mantra "Mustn't grumble." I just can't think like that. I always want to know WHY? WHY? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Mar 16 - 03:07 AM Well, Senofou, if life were a happy-ending script written by a God who made all things happen as planned, then where would there be room for creativity and independence? I think it is the Will of God that humankind create their own solutions. And I also think compassion is the Will of God. The mystic Teresa of Avila (1515-1582) wrote:
I see God as an essence that is within us all and beyond us all. All compassion, all creativity, all solutions to the evil of the world - all flow from that essence. I see compassion and love and mercy and creativity, and I call that God. Others don't, and that doesn't matter. What does matter, is that we believe in compasssion, love, mercy, and creativity - and in our obligation to be that for the world. Your results may vary. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 16 - 03:11 AM "So, if there's evil in the world, it's up to good people to fix it. Why blame God?" Because that's what we were taught by our teachers - a omnipotent god that could do anything if we worshipped him and led a "good" life The modern stance that all this bad stuff is "nuffin' to do wiv 'Im lads" has only come into the equation since the existence of god has been seriously challenged by science and logic - pretty much like "he created the world in seven days", which doesn't mean seven days, or any partticular time anymore. If the ills of the world are due to "evil", then diseases and illnesses that wipe out millions, or natural disaster that decimate countries.... and all those things that are totally beyond the control of humanity, are god's doing...... making him a real sadistically dangerous piece of work - who we are supposed to worship without question. Supporters of this myth are constantly moving the goalposts and telling us that what they were saying twenty, fifty or a hundred years ago is no longer relevant; despite the fact that the word of god is "timeless": if the believers here had written some of the things they have on this thread they would have been guilty of severe, punishable blasphemy. The 'miracles' were no different to the showman's tricks of the shamen, and the fakirs and the sleight-of-hand con-mens all trying to sell something - patent medicine or holy relics.... or just trying to get a living without having to work for it - and they occurred within all religions and outside them - Christianity is a fairly late-comer on the scene. Many of the Christian myths, such as virgin birth, were part of ancient Egyptian mythology and were taken over at a later date. These different religions were/are little different from commercial companies competing for our business with the slickest advertising and the showiest wrapping - and at one time Christianity was as vociferous as any other in telling us that if we worshipped the "wrong god" we would be spend eternity being tortured and persecuted. Until we visited Egypt, I always believed that the poor state of many of those beautiful artifacts - the temples and statues - was due to the passage of time, exposure to the weather, wars... but in fact the bulk of the damage was carried out by the Coptic Christians who didn't liked being looked over by "false gods", and so, deliberately defaced them. Christians claim that we atheists don't have the answers to "life the universe and everything" any more than they do, putting us on an equal footing with believers - not true. Science is based on long-term research which has provided us with actual facts, certainties and strong probabilities, whereas religion has remained, as it always has been, totally dependent on the suspension of logic and the blind acceptance of the supernatural - blind faith - at one time under the threat of earthly punishment, including horrendously painful death - and to top it all, eternal damnation - another goalpost that has been moved out of necessity and progress. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 16 - 03:37 AM The modern stance that all this bad stuff is "nuffin' to do wiv 'Im lads" has only come into the equation since the existence of god has been seriously challenged by science and logic Not true. The question of why there is suffering has always been an issue. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Mar 16 - 03:39 AM Darn, Jim. My guide in Luxor and Aswan gave me the understanding that each new pharaoh defaced the images of his predecessors, usually by destroying the nose of the image. If there were pairs of images, only one had to be defaced. I haven't seen any evidence that the Coptic Christians had a practice of defacing statues, but I'm open to proof if you can provide it. I have seen images of Isis, Osiris, and Horus that very much resemble Coptic images of the Holy Family, and I have seen Coptic Christian altars carved into the walls of ancient Egyptian temples. Historic preservation wasn't really a priority until recent times, which is too bad. So, they opted for "adaptive re-use." I'll ignore the rest of your remarks. I got my Theology degree from the Catholic Church in 1970, and Catholic Theology and teaching haven't changed radically since then. The teachings you speak of are not within my experience, although I'll readily admit that there have been some strange ideas in religion through the years. But what you're expressing is a caricature of religion. I don't believe it. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 16 - 04:15 AM "My guide in Luxor and Aswan gave me the understanding that each new pharaoh defaced the images of his predecessors, usually by destroying the nose of the image" So did one of mine - but the archaeologist who guided our trip for the emtire two weeks told me different and reading I have done since being inspired by that wonderful experience seems to confirm the latter. The Pharaohes were gods and often ran in families and you didn't muck aout with the feller who came before you if you didn't want to be gobbled up by beetles and jackals. "I'll ignore the rest of your remarks" Pity - I would like to have had them seriously challenged by somene who I have a fair mount of respect for - but then again, I do have history and logic on my side. "The question of why there is suffering has always been an issue." he ongoing thread throughout the history of religion is that you may squabble among yourselves as much as you like, but yu never question the motives of god - he's in charge! Religion has produced nothing new that resembles evidence - it never really did - it is entirely based on unquestioned faith and the suspense of logic. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Mar 16 - 04:33 AM It is not possible, Keith, to have a sensible discussion with someone who doesn't recognise sarcasm when he sees it, instead taking everything literally. When I say "Jesus had an audience..." it does not imply that I know for sure that he existed. It means I am taking on believers on their own ground. It's a ploy, Keith. Try to keep up. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: akenaton Date: 31 Mar 16 - 06:32 AM Akhenaton was the first recorded theist, who's god was the disc of the sun who's rays protected and promoted all life. His theories still hold good if we disregard the damage done to our atmosphere by humanity. To treat the rays of the sun as "god" was to lead to the protection of the environment and the planet....no need for wars, all between earth and heaven was to be ours.....but we know what happened to him....and Jesus.......they killed them.....unforgiven. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Raggytash Date: 31 Mar 16 - 06:56 AM 1. Is there any actual evidence of how Akhenaton died, I know there is evidence of his existence. 2. Is there actual evidence of Jesus's existence or, if he did exist, his death. The broad statement "they killed them" doesn't appear to hold water. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 16 - 07:02 AM "To treat the rays of the sun as "god" was to lead to the protection of the environment and the planet." Far from it - to place natural phenomena in the hands of gods is to absolve ourselves from any responsibility - "nuffin' to do with me guv - go and tell god (whosever), about it." I can still recall the battle we had with our insurance company when they told us that the tile which blew off our roof and smashed on to the roof of our car came under "an act of god" and refused to pay up. We won in the end of course - there is no such thing. Until proved otherwise all gods and their acts are pure invention Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: akenaton Date: 31 Mar 16 - 07:22 AM We destroyed our environment, not "god". God told us not to pick the fruit from the "tree of life/truth." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Raggytash Date: 31 Mar 16 - 07:34 AM Which god? As far as I'm aware there loads of them. Hinduism alone is said to have more than 32,000,000 of them This is typical of god botherers, they expect the rest of us the cower before their particular god. I would suggest that for each god botherer there is a god of their own making so there's a possibility for billions of gods. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 16 - 07:35 AM Rag, Is there actual evidence of Jesus's existence No. At least none that I know of. Steve said recently that there is plenty of evidence for religion, but he did not specify Christianity. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 16 - 07:43 AM "God told us not to pick the fruit from the "tree of life/truth."" No he didn't - how do you know he did? "We destroyed our environment, not "god". Quite so - what have supernatural beings got to do with it? Thee is certainly evidence that religion exists - tere is none whatever to sugest that what it propounds exists - we have to take someone's uncorroborated word for that one - wouldn't stand up in any court I know. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: akenaton Date: 31 Mar 16 - 08:38 AM It must be terrible to go through life in a literalist vacuum, how can people who purport to appreciate music and poetry, shut their minds to spirituality. I suppose a song/ tune, is just a collection of notes and words? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Mar 16 - 08:55 AM Being a bit condescending there... my mind is constantly alive to the realms of imagination, wonderment, mystery, surrealist absurdity, lovingness, lust, and electric guitars... but no needing to wrap it all up in the restrictive dictates of man made fibre religions.... 😜 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 16 - 09:04 AM "It must be terrible to go through life in a literalist vacuum" It's not literalist to ask for proof of something that is beyond all reason, especially something that has had such a profoundly damaging effect on all our lives. The ability to question, reason and make use of what we learn stands us out from all other species - it's why chimpanzees don't drive buses. If you are not prepared to defend your belief in the supernatural, at least tell us why we should believe you. I've said before, if those professing to be Christians (or believers in any religion) lived up to the philosophy proclaimed by their religion, the world would possibly be a better place - all to often, they don't, which is why people are slaughtering each other today in the name of their particular deity - The Middle East, former Yugoslavia.... you name it. God was an attempt by primitive people to explain what they saw around them - it was formalised and marketed as a product and became one of the great threats to the existence of mankind. ow that's what I call"terrible". Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: akenaton Date: 31 Mar 16 - 09:22 AM Well one doesn't need to belong to an organised religion to open ones mind to spirituality. Once the petals have opened, the possibilities are endless...a whole new perspective appears....even the benefits of organisation can be examined. You lot are so constricted....conservatism in social issues is beneficial to society, but not so the mind it should always be exploring pastures new. Hmmm mental conservatives....oh the shame!!! :0) PFR I don't see you as a fettered mind......but you can have too much of a good thing!! :0) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 16 - 10:48 AM "Well one doesn't need to belong to an organised religion to open ones mind to spirituality." And you don't have to wrap yourself in superstition to appreciate the finer, non material things in life - spirituality has nothing whatever to do with supreme beings or life-after death - a belief in god - any god, is totally immaterial to the appreciation of natural beauty or art or music. Humanity is humanity no matter what you believe or don't believe. You have stated one of the great myths of your and allreligion - that if you don't believe in a god you can't appreciate art or music... or any of the non-material things of life that is utter nonsense, and typical of the arrogance of all religions. Jim Carroll |
