BS: Cameron & Tax

Subject: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 10:03 AM

Another contributor on another thread mentioned to press coverage of Cameron and the current disclosures regarding possible tax avoidance/evasion of UK citizens. In order not for the other thread not to drift I thought I would start one anew.

News Link

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Kampervan
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 11:47 AM

Well that's OK then isn't it. The family (his late father) has already had the benefit so, with the savings now safely banked, he can legislate to stop it all and take the moral high ground.

Any chance of him making some voluntary payment of the tax that would have been due had the investments been UK based?

I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 02:03 PM

I wait for the focus to move elsewhere. Other cabinet members maybe? Enough back benchers to reduce the slight government majority?

Or maybe Trump and Hillary! But actually I think Trump would just say "Of course! That's business" and be even more boosted.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Stu
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 02:16 PM

I do wonder if Gideon has anything to hide... there are so many rich people in the cabinet they're probably all involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 03:57 PM

We're all in it together.....aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Kampervan
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 04:07 PM

Yes, we're all in it, but I get the feeling that some are standing on the shoulders of others.

Is it over your head or just up to your ankles?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 04:23 PM

I was being sarcastic...

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Kampervan
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 04:29 PM

I know your were Backwoodsman, no argument with you there.

My comment was intended more as a response to the things that Cameron is saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 02:29 AM

Aaahh! Sorry for the grumpy response, K. 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Kampervan
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 03:07 AM

No problem. 

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 03:32 AM

Another interesting article.

Article

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 04:15 PM

Further developments.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 04:16 PM

Developments

I'll try it with the link this time !

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:23 PM

Basically, he's lied to us all week, only slowly and reluctantly having the details forced out of him.

Unfortunately, this has not come at a good time. His "remain" campaign will lose some credibility and the money he's spending on his brochure looks bad (though I actually think it's OK, for the reasons being given). Tough times ahead for those of us who want to stay in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 03:10 AM

"Basically, he's lied to us all week"
And we're all extremely surprised about his, aren't we?
I watched with growing fascination as he attempted to claim that the company wasn't for tax avoidance he he was dealing with it, then how one of his supporters explained that there was no question of his resigning as he was far too busy with more important things.
Nice to know the country is in a safe pair of hands.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM

though I actually think it's OK, for the reasons being given

I do not.
Why should one side be allowed to use public money to put their side of the argument, but the other side not.

A referendum should be fair to both sides.

Both sides should be given equal access to public money.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 04:32 AM

A rare occasion this I actually agree with Keith. I do not think the government should spend £9 million on a booklet for the stay campaign without providing another £9 million for the out campaign to produce a similar booklet. What we have at the moment is an abuse of power.

Not acceptable to my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Kampervan
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 04:37 AM

I agree with both of the above. We all know that the government wants to stay in the EU, so they can make sure that all of the appropriate arguments for staying in are included in the 'In campaign's' brochure.

If the government want to do an information exercise then it should be a neutral leaflet giving equal weight to both sides of the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 04:54 AM

The Government is not a "side." There is an in campaign and an out campaign. They are the sides. I think that it's legitimate for a government to try to persuade us that their policies are good. We should judge by the content of the publication. If it's half-truths and propaganda, they'll have shot themselves in the foot.

To be honest, what's happening here is that the stayers mostly agree with it and the leavers mostly disagree with it. That is not really the way to look at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 06:48 AM

The Government is not a "side."
Totally agree.
As much as I am reluctant to support anything this government does, in this case I believe it has not only a right, but a duty to explain fully the nuts and bolts of what is being asked to vote on.
None of the "sides" (more than two) on this issue are not doing this so the public is receiving its information from an already decided press - hardly democratic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 07:00 AM

OK, one part of the present government (* together with other parties)supports the notion we should remain within the EU and has awarded itself £9 million to promote that argument. Another part of the present government (* together with other parties)supports the notion we would be better off outside the EU. It too should be granted a similar sum to present its argument to the general populace.

* Parties in this instance does not refer to political parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 07:02 AM

The Government is not a "side."

The Government takes one side, and has given that side an unfair advantage using public money.

The issue is to be decided by the electorate, just as in an election.
The government has a view on the outcome of elections too, but it would be wrong to use public money to push that view.

I think that it's legitimate for a government to try to persuade us that their policies are good.

Not with our money it's not!

Anyway, most of the government hold a different view to Cameron on this, so it is not even the government view!

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM

Well said Keith...I agree with that post completely.

Interesting discussion on QT last night regarding tax evasion, I was pleasantly surprised by the contribution of Irving Welch the writer, who maintained that the political system actually encourages bad behaviour in this regard.....In short, financial aspiration has no boundaries, if you don't allow people to become wealthy through almost any means the system stops working efficiently.

Of course this leads to a two tier society.....it's inevitable.

That's why I'm a socialist....and not a "liberal" one.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 07:30 AM

"The Government takes one side,"
And the first thing the British electorate need to know is why the ELECTED Government has taken the position they have on their behalf - in doing what they have done they are (hopefully) merely reporting back to the electorate and not putting up individual views` - they are fulfilling a basic responsibility of their office.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 07:32 AM

Which bit do you agree with?

The "The Government takes one side" bit or the "so it is not even the government view!" bit.

All seemed a bit confused to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 07:34 AM

Jim, they are telling lies to us using our money to produce and distribute them. Mr Welch and Mr Carswell put it very succinctly on QT last night.
Propaganda to promote the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 07:40 AM

And the first thing the British electorate need to know is why the ELECTED Government has taken the position they have on their behalf

How about a pamphlet about why many of the government have taken the opposite position?

All we get is a pamphlet of pro EU propaganda.
We can only guess their real agenda.

Are you a member of "the British electorate" Jim? Do you have a dog in this race?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:02 AM

Working on the basis that whichever way the population vote is will have an impact on all EU member states there is no reason why Jim should not partake in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:07 AM

Of course not.
I was just interested. He may well have kept his vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:12 AM

Let's face it. This government is arguably the most dishonest and disreputable in living memory. Why is anyone surprised that it cheats at anything? I am pro EU, BTW. I suspect that Cam and Co have a hidden agenda of some sort in this latest escapade and we will only find out what it is when it is too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:14 AM

"I think that it's legitimate for a government to try to persuade us that their policies are good."

"Not with our money it's not!"

I didn't hear you complaining when the government did exactly this in the last election campaign, not only with public money but also with privately donated money from rich people that dwarfed what the opposition received. Let's not go into how those wealthy donors come upon their wealth, shall we? Surely they don't have armies of accountants and/or tax-avoiding offshore investments...

Get real, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:15 AM

"Are you a member of "the British electorate" Jim? Do you have a dog in this race?"
I still have a right to vote, ye - are you suggesting that I shouldn't have, otherwise, what's your point - not more Little Englanderism, surely?
Perish the thought!!
Have you lived in a country for a couple of decades where you have been able to observe and experience the good and bad points of being part of the European Union close up? No? Thought not!
I am not against an open debate by any means, but the most important piece of information I need is why our Government has
"Jim, they are telling lies to us using our money to produce and distribute them"
"They are all telling us lies - newspapers and politicians of all shapes and forms alike.
Please don't patronise me - I know what they all do - which is exactly why I firstly want my information to come from those whose elected job it is to tell us where they stand ad why.
I don't elect newspaper proprietors to decide political issues, but the have the loudest an strongest say in what happens in the world today.
You are a Farrago supporter, I seem to remember - I can get that side of the argument from any "send 'em back to where they came from" pub at closing time most nghts of the week.
I've read what the banks and companies have to say - in the present short-term situation, they make some sense.
Personally, I am sceptical about the role Europe plays, but taking the situation as it stands at present, I see no great alternative, and the idea that Britain might leave on an extremist right-wing agenda appalls me - but that is what is on offer - Little Britain writ large.
Leaving or staying must be based on balancing the facts and not re-fighting the Battle OF Agincourt or The Somme.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:16 AM

The only purpose for an offshore account is to sidestep regulation. It may be one set of regulations, it may be another. It is there to dodge responsibility or accountability.

Speaking of which isn't it rather sinister that Mr Scum-moron intervened to water down potential EU regulations about transparency of trusts, as distinct from corporations?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:18 AM

Anyway enough of this already.

Lets get back to Cameron and his tax issues, I think we have only seen a small part to date. I suspect his back room staff are on overtime working out a damage limitation policy and I wonder what other facts may emerge in the coming days and weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:18 AM

Not another bloody war! stop before you start Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:22 AM

Steve, You should remember that irony is completely wasted on certain bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:35 AM

2Not another bloody war!
And tat's your idea of democracy, is it - disagreement is "war".
Now why am I not surprised?
I really didn't bring up this isse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:40 AM

Steve,
I didn't hear you complaining when the government did exactly this in the last election campaign,

It is not allowed in elections.
What are you referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:45 AM

BTW, the Electoral Commission, who govern these things, say the government was wrong to do this.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 08:47 AM

Oy, try starting another thread. I started this one because another had gone off topic.

This one is about Cameron and his tax dealings.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 10:21 AM

Steve raised the issue, and it is not up to you what we discuss.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 10:23 AM

Just ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 10:50 AM

Why can you people not just contribute to the discussion?
Keith is making his points with civility, why would you wish to ignore him if you have an adequate response to give?

This IS supposed to be a discussion section.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 10:59 AM

Ignore him as well :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 11:00 AM

The three not so wise monkeys!

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 11:17 AM

You may have noticed that another discussion had gone off thread which is why I startedthis one.
If you wish to discuss another topic it would seem rational to start another thread.......................................... wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 11:17 AM

...or maybe the unholy trinity?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 11:26 AM

Akenaton, just belt up for once, will you. You have absolutely nothing of substance to say. You're just sniping. It is a discussion forum, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 12:40 PM

Somebody give us a link to the EU pamphlet thread, then those who wish to discuss that can easily go there. I am looking forward to reading that pamphlet, but this thread ought to stick reasonably close to the tax topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 12:58 PM

I did not raise this issue and only responded to the comments of others.

I am now waiting for Steve to justify his assertion that, " the government did exactly this in the last election campaign,"

Was it a mistake Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 01:00 PM

Say goodnight, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 01:08 PM

Richard, see the pamphlet here.
https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/why-the-government-believes-we-should-remain/eu-referendum-leaflet/

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 01:19 PM

Cameron and Tax.

If you lack the intelligence to start another thread, which seems apparent, ask your Mother. I'm sure she'll be able to do so.


Just saying like !!

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 01:40 PM

Go over here to discuss the leaflet.

If that is to difficult. Just f...

Oh, best not :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 02:51 PM

Not sure who those two posts were aimed at.
Steve presumably, as he raised the pamphlet issue on this thread.

Certainly not me anyway. I am an orphan.

And I certainly don't want to be accused again of assuming that they were about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Llanfair
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 04:03 PM

Is it worth looking at the big picture......

On the whole, politicians are self-serving folks, who say and do what they consider they need to do to gain votes to win a place in a level of society they consider to be elite and powerful.

A large percentage of the conservative party are independently wealthy, giving them a blinkered view of the people they purport to govern.

Honesty and integrity are not in the job description.

The rest of the tories are now trying to justify their offshore money, and, with any luck, this will bring down the present government.

Though, when you consider the alternatives........................,

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 05:05 PM

I'd wager that a good proportion of government funds out of which all your lovely state pensions and numerous benefits are paid, are invested offshore TO SPREAD THE RISK - sound investment sense??? I think so!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 05:52 PM

Perhaps you'd like to tell us what we can do about it? Send our old age pensions back, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 06:57 AM

What would you like to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 07:49 AM

I would think that there are more than a few of our elected representatives spitting nails after the release of the panama papers.
"All in it together" rings very hollow when we find out the antics of our 'leaders' Billy Bunter has been extremely reluctant to divulge information and dragging it's release over several days has damaged his credibility. However to believe anything a politician says is to have the mental capacity of a severely retarded goldfish. The days of both camoron and the squeaky draper are hopefully now numbered

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 08:14 AM

Ido not understand how Jim is allowed to vote but i am not i have never been allowed to vote on european referendums since I have been in ireland.
I could not vote on the Lisbon treaty. anyway that was a democratic joke, wrong resuklt please vote again
STRANGE I THOUGHT I WAS A EUROPEAN
I HAVE D BESIDE MY NAME I THINK THAT MEANS I AM DODGY.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 08:18 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 08:36 AM

"I do not understand how Jim is allowed to vote "
You retain your right to vote in British elections up to (I think) fifteen years - I think you have to apply to vote in referenda.
As I make a point of not voting for any of them (it only encourages them), I'm not sure of the details.
I might venture a joke and suggest what D stands for, but best not eh!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 08:21 PM

I am talking about voting on irish referendums like the lisbon treaty, I was not allowed to vote in that farce despite the fact that I am European, you only have a D put by your name in Ireland.
Jim, its known as democracy, but in reality only the very wealthy have there interests protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 04:19 AM

Can you think of anyone you could report for tax evasion? :-)

Report tax evasion - GOV.UK site

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 06:32 AM

Just about anyone who offers to do work cheaper for payment in cash - there are a great many of those around! How many of those are on benefits I wonder ??

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 06:38 AM

I take it you do so, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 07:46 AM

No, fully on PAYE thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 02:09 PM

"Whatever critics may desire, the UK's tax law is not governed by a "morality code", it is based on statute and is structured so that people, by following the rules, pay no more tax than they are legally obliged to."

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 02:31 PM

If you are going to use a quote it is normal practice to cite where the quote originates.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 02:45 PM

And what, pray, is the statute based on? Even if you think it is about maximising some financial measure, whether that is a good thing is a moral judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 05:42 PM

The moral judgement is surely based on whether or not one is complying with current Tax Legislation. If by concession tax liabilities can be minimised by arranging one's affairs in a way that is allowed by current Tax Legislation then what is wrong with that. A parent with available funds is foolish not to use the annual tax free gifts allowance of £3000 to minimise liability to inheritance tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 08:40 PM

There's a moral distinction between using measures specifically provided to reduce a tax bill, such as allowing parents to make gifts to their children, and setting up artificial financial structures designed by bent accountants to take advantage of loopholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 01:52 AM

If you think back to the Uk Parliamentary expenses scandal most Affected MPs claimed quite correctly thatched acted within the rule book. And much good did it do them: the groundswell of public moral outrage forced them to repay and the rules were changed.

Same here. It is all very well saying you stayed within the rules. Moral outrage can overrule that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 02:36 AM

Sorry for the gibberish above. Early morning, no glasses and and Autocorrecting phone is a lousy combination

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 03:04 AM

I turned my autocorrecting off!

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 03:13 AM

Early morning! - just discovered that my distance glasses were not where they should be - luckily found them by my wife's PC which I'd switched on this morning, so that she can access it through Teamviewer from hospital today.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 03:30 AM

Statute needs to reverse IRC -v- Westminster. Tax shams should be generally ineffective.

Subject: RE: BS: Cameron & Tax
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 07:06 AM

More interesting reading:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36009963

The blue clicky wouldn't play ball so I'm afraid it's a copy and paste job.