BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.

Subject: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: saulgoldie
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:30 PM

We are sadly reminded that homophobia is alive and well. Nevermind what his religious background was, or even if his hatred came without any so-called religious imperative. Whatever our motivations may be, we choose to hate, to fear. It is up to us as caring, sentient people to confront homophobia whenever and wherever we see or hear it. Homopobia is a disease. The vaccination is our vigilence. Whether it is a religious figure, candidate for office, a pundit, a "conversion therapist," or a spokesperson for some organization that calls gays "evil" on any level. We must vaccinate them by outing them as nothing more than haters. Period. Full stop. Talk becomes action.

Thank you for listening. Be well, everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 05:13 PM

It was an appalling massacre. I just hope it doesn't provoke a backlash against law-abiding Muslims. The trouble is that Islam doesn't approve of homosexuality, and this sits ill with our modern, all-inclusive Western society. I despair of the world, I can't see much hope ahead for peace or acceptance.
The poor families of the victims, whatever must they be going through?
I thought Obama's address was excellent, I've just watched it on the BBC News.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 05:54 PM

Conservative Christianity and Conservative Judaism also do not approve of homosexuality, Senoufou, so the trouble is not just with Islam.

And plenty of non-religious people are also homophobic.

Hate is never the answer.

I'm afraid there will be backlash against American Muslims. Hate and fear are never answers.

My heart goes out to all those injured, and to the friends, family members and all who loved those who were killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:00 PM

Conservative Christianity and Conservative Judaism also do not approve of homosexuality, Senoufou, so the trouble is not just with Islam.

True but both Conservative Christianity and Conservative Judaism are minority sub groups of their respective religions and neither of them, to my knowledge, teach that homosexuals should be killed.

This Muslim scholar, coincidentally speaking recently at an Orlando mosque, preaches that killing homosexuals is the compassionate thing to do: YouTube

This is what Maajid Nawaz,a former member of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir and now a reformist secular Muslim, has to say on this issue:

"Saying this has 'nothing to do with Islam' is as blinded as saying this *is* Islam.

Clearly, this has *something* to do with Islam.

And liberals saying this has nothing to do with Islam is as ignorant as conservatives saying this has nothing to do with gun laws.

Both US gun laws and Islam today need reform ‪#‎Orlando‬ ‪#‎Solidarity‬"

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:26 PM

I disagree, Bobad, to the extent you single out Islam.    There are extremist groups or individuals who subscribe to any major religion who justify murder based on religious doctrine. Same can be said for some extreme political ideologies.

We have ample evidence of murderous religious extremism historically in the USA, from the killing of doctors who perform abortions, bombings and arson of abortion clinics, lynchings, bombings, and shootings at churches, mosques, and synagogues.

No particular religion is exempt. And that is not a slam at religion. If religion had never been invented there would be other social institutions that would serve as justification for the extreme actions of some individuals, human nature being what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:46 PM

Major religions adhere to a central doctrine laid out by the hierarchy of that respective religion. None of them, as I am aware, teach that homosexuals should be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:52 PM

My immediate assumption on hearing this was that it would turn out to be some gay-hating all-American gun-nut. That wasn't prejuduce against Americans, it's just that's the kind of thing that comes out of that kind of culture every now and then, given the availability of assault rifles and such.

Though in fact in a way, that seems to have been the actual case. It's just he appear to have been a Muslim all-American gay-hating gun-nut.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 08:00 PM

It's just he appear to have been a Muslim all-American gay-hating gun-nut.

Who pledged allegiance to ISIS before embarking on his killing spree it should be noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 08:09 PM

I disagree, Bobad, to the extent you single out Islam.

So, I presume you also disagree with Maajid Nawaz?

I do not single out Islam but I also do not aver that it has nothing with Islam. There is a difference you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 08:31 PM

I would imagine that on numerous occasions during his schooldays in the States he pledged allegiance to the United States.

Pledges of allegiance come cheap. They don't determine the things people actually do most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:08 PM

Have had some trouble with getting posts to take so Bobad, Steve and McGrath have posted since I last tried. Am not sure that McGrath's last post refers to Bobad, though it may. Also aware that Steve is a man of strong opinions and that he can be vitriolic.

I take it that both of you know Bobad and that Bobad is in the UK. Gonna stay out of any fights regarding that. Haven't read enough of Bobad's posts myself over time to have formed an impression, so please forgive if I am being naive in attempting to discuss.

Copying my last failed post, and not the first one in an effort toward some continuity in communication. Here is what I attempted to post last time:

Bobad, I apologize if I am misunderstanding your posts to single out Islam, but Islam is the only religion your posts have addressed thus far, and none of your posts have addressed homophobia as it exists in the general western population, including those who are non-religious.

I don't think I understand the relevance of your question re do I disagree with Maajid Nawaz. Never heard of him until I viewed your youtube link, then did a very quick and un-thorough Google search for a little more information.

There are those who follow Frank Graham, the son of Billy Graham, and who is noted for his homophobic attitudes.

Hitler was not religious.

I have clients (and a few colleagues) whose university education is from Liberty College,founded by Jerry Falwell, a very right wing 'Christian' preacher who had/has a strong following. The school's current leaders continue to be strongly homophobic and also, from my perspective, 2nd amendment 'gun nuts.'

I don't understand how the likes of Maajid Nawaz, who happens to be Muslim, should be considered in any more destructive light than similar figures within the USA Christian faith/institutions.

I think somehow we are talking past each other. Trying to figure out how to remedy that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:36 PM

I don't know that it helps to pin labels on any individuals or groups. I think we need to deal with hatred without generating further hatred. National Public Radio interviewed an openly gay Imam today about the killings, and I think that was a good thing.

Our Irish-born priest spoke of the killings at Mass this morning, and he spoke in a very compassionate manner. We had a young Filipino priest until recently, and he said it was a "dark day for America" when the Supreme Court approved gay marriage - and he unfriended me on Facebook when I disagreed. We have a new priest from Rwanda coming in to replace the Irish guy. I've known him for quite a while, and he's a good guy - but he was visibly shaken when he heard me speak favorably of gay marriage. Guess I'm going to have to work on him. I wish we had some gay couples in the parish to give these foreign-born priests an education (I guess I don't consider the Irish guys foreign-born).

I'm not sure we will make progress if we treat homophobia as "bad." I think it's far more constructive to see it as "fear," and deal with it in ways that will heal that fear.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 01:43 AM

It is very easy to say this group or that group committed the atrocity
when we do that we throw a blanket over everyone else in that group. When we throw an idealistic blanket over a group we stop seeing them as individual people. When we stop seeing them as individual people it becomes psychologically easier to do bad things to them because we are not harming people but a group(Insert whatever group label you want)

The truth is if you, I or anyone else takes any action that injures or ends a life then they are responsible for that death or injury.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 03:19 AM

Megan, you're spot on. People are individuals first and foremost. As the thread title says, brothers, sons, fathers. (and the female equivalents of course) and not a faceless group. It's as you say so much easier for vicious people to feel hatred or contempt for 'blacks', 'gays' 'immigrants' etc than to be evil to one's next-door-neighbour or to wish death upon a work colleague.

I'm afraid my Muslim husband was terribly homophobic when he first arrived in UK. He tells me that in his country of birth, no gay would ever dare to 'come out' as he would be immediately beaten to death by the locals, with sticks, bricks etc, then doused in petrol and set alight. Horrifying. He has gradually come to accept gay people, mainly because he has a gay colleague at work who has been very kind to him. And a gay shop assistant who helped him choose a perfume for his mum in Africa, then proceeded to find lots of free samples to add to the gift.

Only yesterday we saw a couple of gay women walking affectionately hand in hand in the shopping mall, it was so sweet. I was really pleased to hear my husband say with a smile, "I think they must love each other!" In the past he'd have been utterly disgusted.
It's been an uphill struggle though to get him to this point.

I'm thinking of the bereaved families in Orlando this morning, and hoping those seriously wounded in hospital pull through. What an atrocity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 04:35 AM

Is, for some religious people, being gay seen as a bigger crime than killing someone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

So it would seem, Les.
The more 'fundamentalist' Muslims would consider it very blessed to kill a gay person. They imagine that God applauds such actions, and they are guaranteed a place in Paradise.
Nearly all religions have a history of persecution and slaughter of designated groups of people though.

I was worried yesterday for all the Gay Pride processions and carnivals in USA. I hope it all went off without any trouble or attacks.

I just don't know what one can do to convince people that our fellow human beings are there to be loved and respected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:16 AM

Four women announced as dead so far and others badly hurt in hospital. Maybe somebody could do something about the title?

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:38 AM

Those who seek to excuse the teachings of Islamic Fundamentalism in this case by inferring that it is stereotyping are doing exactly the same thing to those who are simply opposed to homosexual marriage legislation.

The Catholic church and other religions teach that homosexuality is a sin and a perversion.....not that homosexuals should be killed.

I am completely opposed to this legislation but am horrified by the actions of this man who was obviously extremely mentally disturbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:31 AM

Well I think that's got to be right. Perhaps he was just an insane homophobe. He had been monitored by the FBI but not regarded as a threat. He does appear to have been linked with a jihadist connected to Syria. And of course ISIS would claim the outrage as they are known to be in favour of lone-wolf attacks. I have read a lot of extremely judgemental stuff about this from people who can't know the full facts. If we wish this terrible incident to trigger rants against Islam at this point then I think we are guilty of jumping the gun and fuelling Islamophobia. We must wait until the facts become clear. And I agree with Jack. The thread title may be well-meaning but it is not appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:32 AM

One thing we do know is that if this sick individual and others like him hadn't had easy access to firearms that were designed to kill human beings a lot of innocent people would be alive today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM

The view of an "Islamophobe: Orlando massacre: The progressive left and Islamist apologia

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:50 PM

The Times Of Israel blog linked to by our most bigoted poster is a piece of Islamophobic disgracefulness. The fact that that publication allows anyone to give vent to this sort of trash speaks volumes. Thoroughly disreputable. Hardly surprising that it chimes so well with bobad/anonymous Guest. Go on, hold your nose and have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:27 PM

Murders happen all over the world from time to time, and gay people get more than their share of that.

But massacres by nuts with guns is a sickeningly frequent phenomenon peculiar to the United States, with the exception of occasional horrors like Dunblane in other countries, where they almost invariably are followed by tighter gun laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:06 AM

The NRA and the pro-Israel lobby hold politicians to ransom in the US. In one of the world's biggest democracies, unelected pressure groups hold such sway. And I haven't even mentioned big corporations such as oil companies. Brief against Israel, you're toast. Try to tighten the gun laws, the same. And don't even think of charging a premium for petrol that reflects its environmental impact. It's quite interesting that one of the main arguments in favour of the UK leaving the EU is that we would regain democratic control of our country. Well, the US is a proud, standalone country, and democratic control seems as far away as ever there in so many respects. And I know we have similar issues to the ones I've described this side, before I get castigated for attacking the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:45 AM

There it is folks, it's the Jews again, we should have known that's who was behind this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 10:23 AM

the pro-Israel lobby hold politicians to ransom in the US
Brief against Israel, you're toast.

Is that true Steve?
What leverage do they have?
Please explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 11:03 AM

Dont ya know Keith, the Jews, through their control of the banks and the media, control governments throughout the world - why, it must be true because it says so in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Shaw never misses an opportunity to let us know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM

The Times of Israel seems to have the most screwed up blog moderation in the world's media. They have a long track record of people posting venomous crap under fake identities, and I guess whatever the anonymous "bobad" wants us to read was more of the same. Possibly she wrote it herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Megan L
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 12:50 PM

While some of you are busy scoring points their are parents siblings and loved ones sitting by hospital beds some wondering if the one they love will survive. Do any of you game players even know what that feels like? You are not being funny or intelligent ruining threads like you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: saulgoldie
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 02:47 PM

I am not exactly sure how this thread went from homophobia to "Jew"ophobia. I don't *think* they are connected. But what do I know? Anyway, back to the thread, which is already in progress...

I have been mulling the whole recent event over in my mind, and I think I have a clearer sense of it now. Yes, there is some conjecture on my part. But itsa discussion.

First off, it is a no-brainer that we need effective background checks before someone may buy a gun. That does not "take" anyone's gun away. It merely better guarantees that gun owners are not dangers to the community.

Second, no question that we need better mental health care. No question, whatsoever.

And third, no matter what religious command anyone may claim, it does not mean that the rest of the members of that denomination endorse her/his actions. The individual is responsible for what they did lock stock and barrel.

Now, that does not totally absolve other members of said denomination of any responsibility at all when they spew hatred and encourage persecution of anyone or group. But ultimately, the *individual* makes their own choice to do the deed. And the particular religion is not the "guilty party."

Those of us who are disinclined to persecuting others can help reduce the likelihood of more persecution by confronting any and all hate speech with light and kindness, not to mention good argument as to why such speech does not make lives better.

Meantime, the voices in my head are telling me to clean my guns, and "take out" some cellphone-talking-drivers. News at 11.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 03:13 PM

This person has an obsession with Jews and brings them into every thread he can - he can't help himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 03:16 PM

Joe, when my grand daughter was 4 or 5 she had a very natural aversion to snakes. I had a small black king snake at the time and they are known to be quite gentle critters. She became comfortable with it. In a number of years, she was 12 and the snake was 5ft long, and yhen I had to teach her that wild snakes were not the same and would bite(we have no dangerous types) I don't think this approach will work with homophobes , I think you'd want a spade. And bobad, I thought only Trump reminded me of 1933. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 04:25 PM

From recent news items, it seems the person had actually been attending the gay club for some time, and was probably gay himself. Also, others have said he desperately wanted to be accepted and to make gay friends, but his strange and disturbing personality put people off. I'm now tending to think his terrible actions were a result, not of homophobia, but of social rejection and revenge.
It appears obvious that he was very mentally disturbed and felt isolated, so retaliated with the appalling results of a mass killing.
I actually feel some pity for him. The Dunblane killings were carried out due to a similar 'rejection' anger.

As a teacher, I've come across one or two pupils who desperately sought 'acceptance' by their peers but were too strange/weird to make any friends. They invariably turned nasty and damaged other pupils' work, started aggressive fights and lashed out. One or two were expelled from school. I suppose if they had had access to firearms they may in later life have exploded in wrath in the same way. In other words, 'If you can't join 'em, beat 'em.'

I'm just trying to understand how this awful situation comes about. If only these individuals had received help earlier, (and love,it must be said) they might not have erupted in this lethal fashion.
A terrible tragedy for all concerned including the perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:26 PM

Yes, I heard tonight that the perpetrator frequented the club. Interesting that what was a terrible human tragedy was jumped on by so many as evidence of a violent attack on people with alternative sexual preferences. Just goes to show how easy it is to jump to conclusions that accord with your worldview.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:33 PM

So pete, are you saying it WASN'T a violent attack on people with alternative sexual preferences? Or what the hell ARE you trying to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:49 PM

Pete, give the judgemental stuff a rest until we have a clearer understanding of what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:56 PM

So tell us Steve Shaw, what does the "Jewish lobby" have to do with the topic of this thread? If you should be invoking any lobby that has some relevance to this thread maybe you could consider the Muslim lobby. It is considerably larger and more powerful than the "Jewish lobby" and it does harvest more in the way of financial largesse. Yes, Shaw, the US gives money to countries that kill people for being homosexuals. Shocking isn't it? Or does this this not trouble you as much as Israel receiving financial aid so it can defend itself from it's enemies who would like to see it wiped off the map?

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:07 PM

I have never used the expression Jewish lobby in my life. Your putting it into speech marks, implying that it's a phrase of mine, which it isn't, and which I am on record here of vehemently opposing the use of, merely points to your crass dishonesty, which we all know about via your use of a secret second identity used to call decent people names. Goodnight, and I hope we never encounter you again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:38 PM

So Shaw, no comment on the "pro Muslim" (ha, ha) lobby? Thought not.....good night to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:48 PM

Perhaps, when Keith wakes up in the morning, he'll have something nice to say about you. In the meantime, forum cheat, enjoy what I hope will be your swansong. Unless, of course, the mods carry on pretending that they don't know who you are, preferring to shit on people who even remotely dare to mention r*l*gi*n rather than shit on cheating bigots such as your good self who bring this board into disrepute.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:53 PM

I am ever so sad about what has happened to this thread. The original poster had nothing of the sort in mind, that much is clear not only from the content but from the tone of his writing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:59 PM

Still no comment on the "pro Muslim" lobby I see........what are you afraid of?

BTW, FYI most of us are familiar with the concept of ambiguity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Janie
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 09:45 PM

Thanks Megan L

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 10:28 PM

"First off, it is a no-brainer that we need effective background checks before someone may buy a gun. That does not "take" anyone's gun away. It merely better guarantees that gun owners are not dangers to the community."

While "effective background checks" are clearly necessary, it's impossible to actually ensure that they remove the danger to the community. It is the possession of the guns that turns gun owners into potential dangers. That goes double for any kind of assault rifle and such. They need to be outlawed in private hands, as they are in numerous countries.
..........
There is no incompatibility between someone being attracted by the gay orientation and gay community and loathing it. Self hatred of one sort and another is a very common phenomenon, and a very dangerous one. After all the classical pattern on this kind of mass killing normally culminate in the death of the perpetrator, either self inflicted or through "suicide by cop".

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 11:27 PM

Bobad, I think you need to take the time to listen to the speech by President Obama. You'll find it here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/obama-orlando-shooting.html

An excerpt from the New York Times article:

Mr. Obama bitterly rejected criticism from Mr. Trump and other Republicans about his steadfast refusal to use the term "radical Islam" to describe the Islamic State, which is also known as ISIS or ISIL.

"If there's anyone out there who thinks we're confused about who our enemies are, that would come as a surprise to the thousands of terrorists who we've taken off the battlefield," Mr. Obama said at the Treasury. "There's no magic to the phrase 'radical Islam.' It's a political talking point. It's not a strategy."

Mrs. Clinton echoed the idea, asking pointedly in her speech: "Is Donald Trump suggesting that there are magic words that once uttered will stop terrorists from coming after us?"

The president said he would not use the wording because he was unwilling to give the Islamic State the victory of acceptance of its vision that it is the leader of a holy war between Islam and the West.

"If we fall into the trap of painting all Muslims with a broad brush and imply that we are at war with an entire religion, then we are doing the terrorists' work for them," Mr. Obama said.

Mr. Obama is scheduled to travel to Orlando on Thursday to visit with the surviving victims and the families of those killed in the rampage on Sunday morning. He was to have traveled to Wisconsin on Wednesday for his first campaign appearance with Mrs. Clinton since endorsing her last week, but the event was canceled in light of the shooting.

Still, Tuesday's one-two punch left little doubt that Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton plan to savage Mr. Trump on the campaign trail. The president was careful not to cast his criticism in political terms and never mentioned Mr. Trump's name even as he clearly targeted him — at one point referring derisively to "politicians who tweet" — and his policy proposals.

Instead, Mr. Obama spoke ominously of the stakes for the nation's security, and its very identity, if the ideas espoused by Mr. Trump and many in the Republican Party are widely accepted.

"We've gone through moments in our history before where we acted out of fear, and we came to regret it," Mr. Obama said. "We've seen our government mistreat our fellow citizens, and it has been a shameful part of our history."

I think we need to target our response. This attack, and the attack in San Bernardino, appear to have been committed by individual American citizens - Obama called them 'home-grown extremists" - who were influenced by the Islamic State, but not part of any network. It's clear that this massacre was not supported by the vast majority of Muslims.

I think it's also clear that there is no justification for civilians owning military weapons. While it's true that most shooting deaths are not caused by assault weapons, the firearms industry and the NRA have sent a constant message that it is a heroic thing for people to play soldier. This mindset needs to be stopped, and the banning of assault weapons will help accomplish that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 11:48 PM

I would like to remind participants to stick to the topic of discussion. If you disagree with what somebody says here at Mudcat, here and in all other threads, post a logical rebuttal. If somebody posts something you consider detestable, consider it an opportunity to post a rational response.
Name-calling and telling people to piss off, doesn't add anything to the discussion. Even though in many or most cases it's clear that you're right, personal attacks add nothing to a discussion.
Yes, Steve, I found out through extended IP research that Bobad posted as an anonymous guest for a long time, but that time is over now and nothing can be done about it. The time is now - address his comments directly, not by bringing up the past.
I had to delete a lot of really stupid messages from this thread. The next step is to give out one-week suspensions. I've notified two people that they are at the top of the list.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 12:04 AM

Joe, I did listen to president Obama's speech and found it to be a bit disingenuous but sincere. The best comment I did hear today came from a Muslim commentator who, when asked about his opinion of the killer's motivation, whether it was his religion, homophobia or mental illness replied that those three are not mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 12:13 AM

Yes, and it's clear that many people use their religion as an excuse for their homophobia. Homophobia exists everywhere, and it exists among at least some members of almost all religious groups, too. There certainly are some staunch homophobes in my Catholic parish.

Obama's address made a lot of sense. It makes no sense to wage war against Islam. We need to target hatred, not any particular religious group.

In what way did you find his address to be "disingenuous"? Did you find Trump's response to be superior to Obama's?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:17 AM

Joe, I must take issue, to hold the opinion that homosexuality is dangerous andunhealthy and that opening up the institution of marriage to any such sexual grouping is not homophobia.

People who study the subject do not hate and fear homosexuals, but are aware of the dangers associated with that lifestyle. It is called clear thinking unrestricted by ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:23 AM

Nope, Ake, the Catholics I know who oppose homosexuals are just plain bigoted. There's no logic at all behind their thinking. Their attitude is disdain, not concern and compassion. Certainly indiscriminate sexual conduct has dangers, be it heterosexual or homosexual. When fidelity comes into the equation, things settle down.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:39 AM

Don't be ridiculous akenaton. Unhealthy? Are you ever going to make an effort to overcome this misguided viewpoint? Our dear gay friends have been together for years, they're getting married soon. They're just two comfy middle-aged men who love eachother. They had other boyfriends when younger, before they met, as would anyone of any sexuality. Their health has never been 'endangered by their lifestyle'. You really are daft mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 05:27 AM

Well Joe, maybe those who oppose from a religious perspective are "bigoted", but the people I know in our local church certainly are not. They see "homosexual rights" mainly as an attack on family and the family structure which underpins all religions.

Regarding health, the figures are there for all to read provided by official health agencies.
The MSM figures for HIV and syphilis, are now over 80% of all new infections.
In all the years that we have been arguing these issues, no one has even attempted to explain why this is the case in one single demographic......it must surely be intrinsic to the sexual behaviour of homosexuals, whether it be the lifestyle, with its high levels of promiscuity or the sexual methods used.

Marriage in many cases has been completely redefined, and is now regarded as a group activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 05:43 AM

On the other subject, of course there is such a thing as "Radical Islam"....We have all seen it at work, putting people in cages and filming them being burned alive, subjugating women and young girls, beheading people of other faiths and murdering homosexuals.
Of course the mass of Muslims do not support them, but given the freedom to gain a degree of power and wealth, their ideology will be enforced.
Islamic Fundamentalism is a huge danger to the world and Mr Obama should have recognised that in his speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM

Akenaton I would remind you to read Matthew 7:21-23 and remember on that day your worth will be measured with the same stick you used to measure others. I would also advise you to study John 1:1-3.

If all things were made by God , then all people were made by God. If you then decry someone you are then decrying the very God you profess to follow.

with apologies to those who do not believe in religion

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 06:41 AM

Thank you Megan, but I am not a "religious" person though I do admire many of my Christian friends. They are without exception "good" people who do good things for our community.
I simply do not have the strength to fully believe in a personalised God. It takes great strength to set aside verifiable things and rely on faith.

My opposition to the legislation is purely on health and societal grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 06:57 AM

Go stand outside Black street on a Monday morning the biggest danger to sexual health is hetrosexual males who seem to think buying a lassie a drink gives them automatic right to have sex with her whether she wants it or not.

Stop being so hypocritical by choosing to pick only one group if your motive truly was sexual health.

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: saulgoldie
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:06 AM

"...phobia" is defined as an extreme, irrational fear of (whatever). If homosexuality can be described as somehow unhealthy and such a claim supported by some fact-checked actual *facts,* then we may look into that as a public health issue. Otherwise, homophobia is just another phobia as defined above. So far, we have not seen any such facts from the homophobes here.

To suggest this as 49 homosexuals were just murdered for who they were is cold and insensitive. And I must call it out for what it is: blind hatred. Tell you what, while I am rallying with other allies and gays in sorrow and mourning, why don't you get with the folks from the Family Research Council and the Westboro Baptist Church, and catcall at us from the periphery. And it *is* the periphery. Civilized society is actively recognizing that they are just people, as the rest of us are just people, entitled to all the rights and duties of "normal" people. And we are moving forward.

Ake, you are on the wrong side of history. You may have many other admirable qualities. But your homophobia is not one of them.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Brothers, Sons, Fathers.
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM

I totally agree with what you posted Saul but I must take exception with your characterization of the murdered as "49 homosexuals" - they were 49 persons, we don't really know the sexual orientation of every one of them nor is it particularly relevant. One fellow was there with his mother, she was killed, he survived. If this had been a so called straight club we would not hear that 49 heterosexuals were killed. I think it's time we all recognize each other as persons without reference to race or sexual orientation.