BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 09:57 AM

I'm starting this thread because arguments, very occasionally rising to the level of discussions, are currently overwhelming another thread about the British Labour Party. I am hoping that some at least of those busily exchanging opinions (and insults) relating to this might choose to carry them on here rather than in that thread.

The central point at dispute is that how far it is possible to criticise the State of Israel without this feeding into hostility towards the Jewish people and their culture and religion, amounting to antisemitism.

At present there is a wave of accusations directed at people within the Labour tradition who are stringly critical of Israel that this amounts to antisemitism, and that they should be purged from Labour. The basis for this is that Jews generally, wherever they live, feel a strong sense of solidarity with Israel, and therefore attacks on Israel are experienced as attacks on them. (Jews who do not react in this way are liable to be desribed as a special variety of antisemite, "self-hating Jews").

The question arises, since there are many diasporas where people with ethnic connections scattered around the world feel strong attachments to a far away country, how is it that it is only in the case of Members of the Jewish diaspora that it is felt that criticism of the far away country is rightly interpreted as hostility to its sons and daughters elsewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

Natan Sharansky: Recognizing the "New Anti-Semitism"

Moreover, the so-called "new anti-Semitism" poses a unique challenge. Whereas classical anti-Semitism is aimed at the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, "new anti-Semitism" is aimed at the Jewish state. Since this anti-Semitism can hide behind the veneer of legitimate criticism of Israel, it is more difficult to expose. Making the task even harder is that this hatred is advanced in the name of values most of us would consider unimpeachable, such as human rights.

Nevertheless, we must be clear and outspoken in exposing the new anti-Semitism. I believe that we can apply a simple test - I call it the "3D" test - to help us distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitism.

The first "D" is the test of demonization. When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz - this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.

The second "D" is the test of double standards. When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria, is ignored; when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross - this is anti-Semitism.

The third "D" is the test of delegitimization: when Israel's fundamental right to exist is denied - alone among all peoples in the world - this too is anti-Semitism.


Jewish Political Studies Review 16:3-4 (Fall 2004)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:21 AM

Yes, I read some of the stupidities on the Labour Party thread - and couldn't be arsed to participate.

I'm not going to participate further in this one - because I've no doubt it will eventually be as rancid as the other - but I'll make this one plain comment.

There is a clear distinction, in my view, between the actions of the government of a country, and the individuals within or without that country. The one is not the other, and there may be many thousands of people who form part of the nationals of that country who disagree to a greater or lesser extent with their government's policies. To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate.

My best friend of nearly 50 years standing - a fellow musician and our family solicitor - has been with us over the weekend. He regards the government of Israel as operating in a disgusting manner with regard to Palestine. He is Jewish; he is not an antisemite or a "self-hating Jew" - which is an equally disgusting term in my view and his.

End of my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:03 AM

"There is a clear distinction, in my view, between the actions of the government of a country, and the individuals within or without that country. The one is not the other, and there may be many thousands of people who form part of the nationals of that country who disagree to a greater or lesser extent with their government's policies. To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate."

The opinions of individuals without the country, unless of course they still maintain and use voting rights in that country's elections are totally irrelevant - living as they do in peace and security elsewhere they have absolutely no stake in the matter.

The opinions of those who live in the country itself, provided that country is run on democratic lines, get the opportunity to vote and change their governments at regular intervals (Something that has been denied Palestinian voters for some time now). The electorate of Israel (Who on the other hand have never missed a single election since the country was founded) have democratically elected their current Government, so they therefore cannot distance themselves from the policies of the Government that they themselves elected.

The 15,000+ missiles that have been fired into Israel since they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, indiscriminately targeting the civilian population have not been fired at the Government of Israel, they have been fired with the express intention of killing the people of Israel and strange though it may seem to some on this forum it is the responsibility of the elected Government of Israel to ensure that that sort of behaviour is discouraged in the strongest possible manner.

The case of Israel and the Jewish people is unique. Anybody can make threats of annihilation against any other race or creed in this world and it would be laughed off as a sick joke. That can never be true of any such threat made to a Jew, because history shows there has been a precedent, and quite rightly the Jews take it very seriously, make a threat about annihilating the Jews - as all Israel's Arab neighbours have done repeatedly since 1948 - you bet they are not going to laugh that off or dismiss it - they will act on it and behave in such a manner as to make sure that it never has even the remotest chance of success. And guess what? They are acting and behaving completely and perfectly within their rights to do so.

I take it Will that your Jewish friend of 50 years lives here in the UK? He can opine whatever he wishes because should things go pear shaped he knows that he and his family will not have to pick up the tab. Israel is a sovereign state recognised by the United Nations - NO-ONE on this earth has the right to threaten it, or attack it. And those who do, or allow such attacks to mounted from their territory should fully accept the responsibility for any retaliatory action that results from those attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:03 AM

McGrath I have watch it grow there

Bobad, Excellent resource you have there


Will, Tribal blowback is ugly. No one wins.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:04 AM

Bringing in the Nazis as analogies or comparison is liable to happen in any heated discussion - that's why people talk of Godwin's Law - "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazism or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—​​that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.

It doesn't just happen with Israel, it happened with South Africa, it happens in relation to Putin's Russia, Iran, the Vietnam War, and in all kinds of contexts, even relatively trivial contexts - people talk about "feminazis" or "the folk Gestapo.".

As for double standards, precisely the same criticism was made in the context of South Africa. The common factor is that in both case they were states which claimed to be part of the democratic world, and which were essentially colonial regimes.

As for the suggestion that Israel is the only country where its legitimacy as a state is questioned, this doesn't bear close examination. The legitimacy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and North Ireland to continue to exist is challenged by those who favour Scottish Independence or Irish reunification. The legitimacy of the USSR was challenged by those who favoured its break up into successor state, and the legitimacy of the successor states is challenged by those who favour the reconstitution of a version of the USSR. There are other examples, all different
, all unique, as Israel is, but sharing the common element that there are those who believe those countries, as legal entities, ideally should not exist, and the inhabitants should have a different citizenship. In none of those cases would it be suggested that people holding such views were automatically hostile to emigrants from those countries, even where they did not share these views, or should be accused of such hostility even when they denied it.
..........
As for this thread. Years ago when I was hitching in Morocco I remember that wasps zooming around after sweet mint tea were a nuisance in outdoor restaurants - and I saw that how Moroccans dealt with that was not to try to swat the waspes, but instead to give them a glass of their own at the end of the table, full of sweetened tea and mint leaves.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:11 AM

"As for this thread. Years ago when I was hitching in Morocco I remember that wasps zooming around after sweet mint tea were a nuisance in outdoor restaurants - and I saw that how Moroccans dealt with that was not to try to swat the waspes, but instead to give them a glass of their own at the end of the table, full of sweetened tea and mint leaves." - MGOH

Which is precisely what the League of Nations did with the Mandated Territory of Palestine in 1923, the Arabs of the regions got 77% of it as "their Mint Tea" and all others, the "wasps" got the remaining 23%. Unfortunately the Arabs wanted it all - they still do.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:16 AM

Kevin,
The central point at dispute is that how far it is possible to criticise the State of Israel without this feeding into hostility towards the Jewish people and their culture and religion, amounting to antisemitism.

You keep making this point as if anyone disagrees with it.
They do not.
Of course it is OK to criticise any state, and Israel with its free media and opposition parties welcomes criticism.

None of the antisemitism identified within Labour have just been criticism of Israel. That would not be antisemitism and no-one would claim it was.

Will,
To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate.

Again, no-one here would disagree that point, so why make it?

kevin,
As for the suggestion that Israel is the only country where its legitimacy as a state is questioned, this doesn't bear close examination.

It is the only such country that is surrounded by enemies who have made frequent attempts to wipe it out.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:29 AM

Why, in the name of intelligence, do you people have to repeatedly and continuously enable the rancid bullshit of Bubo, The Professor and T-Bird?

Sheer Perversity? Masochism?

Do you REALLY want or need to see more of their shit smeared on the wall???

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

What a nasty bit of bile Greg.
Better out than in as your mum probably said.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

As I said, each case is unique. But that doesn't affect the issue - even believing that it would be better if a particular state did not exist as a state does not translate into being assumed to be hostile to people from that state, either inside it or scattered round the world.

Accusations of antisemitism are in fact frequently made purely on the basis of criticism of Israel, whether of policies and actions of its government or of its legitimacy as a state founded on ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:36 AM

"None of the antisemitism identified within Labour have just been criticism of Israel."
No antisemitism has been "identified" in the Labour party - it has been alluded to.
Until it is described and apportioned, it will remain the unsubstantiated accusation it is at present.
"Again, no-one here would disagree that point, so why make it?"
Because it is the crux of this argument
Will is quite right.
The Israelis have described all questioning of its political policies in regard to expansionism and Gaza as Antsemitism - it has even applied this to Israeli citizens and Jews living outside Israel

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

Way to troll the Mudcat Wrecking Crew, McGrath.
Just another thread for them to get their OCD on in. (Yeah, I'm gone)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:53 AM

Jeri beat me to it - now we have two stupid argument threads instead of one. Thanks, Kev [Not].

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:02 PM

Dead in the water. Belly-up. No point. All three trolls are gleefully present already, as was so predictable. Free speech in this topic Is impossible on this forum. There is on,y one answer, and that is to cut out the cancers. As that isn't going to happen, it's time to ignore these threads. That's me right now. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:45 PM

I take it Will that your Jewish friend of 50 years lives here in the UK? He can opine whatever he wishes because should things go pear shaped he knows that he and his family will not have to pick up the tab. Israel is a sovereign state recognised by the United Nations - NO-ONE on this earth has the right to threaten it, or attack it. And those who do, or allow such attacks to mounted from their territory should fully accept the responsibility for any retaliatory action that results from those attacks.

The confusion seems to arise from a basic distinction - which is not being made - between government and race. I can, for example, criticise the government of an African country to my heart's content, should I feel so inclined. This does not make me anti-black per se. I can equally criticise the government of Israel, should I feel so inclined - and this equally does not make me anti-semitic per se.

To accept the alternative definition - that anyone who criticises an African government must therefore commit the social crime of being anti-black, and anyone who criticises the Israeli government commits the social crime of being anti-semitic - is to say that these governments are beyond criticism. Which is patently monsense. It's not the race being criticised - it's the actions of government, regardless of race.

And that really is the end of my comment here, because I can't make it any plainer.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:13 PM

Many of you Europeans may simply assume the anti-Semitism you encounter or engage in your neck of the woods does not exist in the US in ways similar to what you may feel.

While it is true there are the fringe white supremacists and average bigots who need a reason to feel good about themselves there is not the overt animus that Europeans have.

No one here would ever imagine any harm to come to story tellers like Spielberg or our representatives like Bernie but I can't say the same of Wall St.. If anything the executive Jewish CEO's betray tenants of Judaism and main St. US by way of exporting jobs and wealth in the name of globalism. No different than most of the 1%.

Floyd Blankenstein, Gary Cohen, Steven Friedman are not exactly heros to faith or country except to other 1 percenters like Jamie Diamond and John G Stumpf who can be cast as traitors to Christian values

Perhaps America does not have to deal with the guilt Europeans must resolve somehow, or even face. Of course for those who deserve guilt .
Americans see themselves as liberators.
.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:29 PM

Jim,
No antisemitism has been "identified" in the Labour party - it has been alluded to

We have the statements of Livingstone, Shah and Wallace.
None were about Israel.

"Again, no-one here would disagree that point, so why make it?"
Because it is the crux of this argument
Will is quite right.

It is not "the crux of the argument" because no-one is arguing against it.
Of course Will is right, as is McGrath.
It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, and no-one says it is.

The Israelis have described all questioning of its political policies in regard to expansionism and Gaza as Antsemitism

No they have not. If you have not just made that up, show us a quote.

Will,
I can equally criticise the government of Israel, should I feel so inclined - and this equally does not make me anti-semitic per se.

Of course not Will, but no-one is saying it does so what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:41 PM

comparing antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:45 PM

I think some of the quotes you have presented to us Keith do precisely what you say they don't do.

Moreover, even the suggestion that there are disagreements as to how antisemitism can be defined has in itself been attacked as being an antisemitic thing to say.

There's somethong of an Alice Through the Looking-glass thing going on - 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:59 PM

"We have the statements of Livingstone, Shah and Wallace."
None of which are Antisemitic
Even if they wer - that's three out of a quarter of a milliom - hardly a massive problem
You might find as man in my local in London
"It is not "the crux of the argument" because no-one is arguing against it."
Id criticism of Israel is "antisemitic" as stated by the Justcice inister - and virtually all Pro Israel regime supporters somebody certAIN;YT I

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 03:04 PM

Sorry - didn't mean to post that - done in a hurry.
Y'r 'tis again
We have the statements of Livingstone, Shah and Wallace."
None of which are Antisemitic
Even if they were - that's three out of a quarter of a million - hardly a massive problem
You might find as many in my local in London
"It is not "the crux of the argument" because no-one is arguing against it."
If criticism of Israel is "antisemitic" as stated by the Justice Minister - and virtually all Pro Israel regime supporters, somebody certainly is.
The very appointment of somebody who has called for the GENOCIDE of PALESTINIANS to such a position tends to implicate not just her but the whole lot of them.
This is how the press have presented this statement, I have no intention of arguing with you on the facts - you want to deny what she said, prove it - your denials without proof are what nauses up these discussions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 03:34 PM

Kevin,
I think some of the quotes you have presented to us Keith do precisely what you say they don't do.

Example please.

Accusations of antisemitism are in fact frequently made purely on the basis of criticism of Israel, whether of policies and actions of its government

Example please.

Jim,
"We have the statements of Livingstone, Shah and Wallace."
None of which are Antisemitic

In your opinion, but what is that worth?
All were suspended by the Party, and Livingstone still is.
Shah's antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, but denied by you and Jim but what is that worth?.

Id criticism of Israel is "antisemitic" as stated by the Justcice inister -

She did not say that. She said that now it was unacceptable to attack Jews, antisemites now attack Israel instead.
Of course the do.
That does not mean that all who criticise Israel are antisemites.

hardly a massive problem

A "serious issue."

The very appointment of somebody who has called for the GENOCIDE of PALESTINIANS to such a position tends to implicate not just her but the whole lot of them.

It would, and it will if such a thing ever happens.
You really are making up shit again now Jim.

This is how the press have presented this statement,

If that is true, give an example.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 04:25 PM

a basic distinction - which is not being made - between government and race.

Jews are not a "race".

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 04:39 PM

But Ayalet Shaked is in fact Israeli Minister of Justice, Keith, and there seems to be convincing evidence that she did make that post which does genocide, and that in doing so she was indicating agreement with it.

I'm constantly reminded of another quote, which I've posted before: "As far as criticism is concerned, we don't resent that, unless it is absolutely biased - as it usually is." John Vorster, Prime Minuster of South Africa in Apartheid times.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 05:51 PM

The Professor will not be swayed by evidence, or for that matter, fact.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:29 AM

"In your opinion, but what is that worth?"
We are here to discuss opinions and produce facts Keith
I have produced both - you refuse even to tell us what the accusations of Antisemitism are and are totally relying on your own interpretation of the opinions of others.
Antismitism is the insulting, denigration and persecution of the Jewish People - where in any of this has any of these people ever done this?
You refuse to qualify your accusations by specifying them - then there is no case to answer.
What jury in Britain would ever deliver a guilty verdict on the basis of, "I don't actually know the nature of the crime committed but somebody told me it has been so it must be true?
This is the basis of your case and it is lynch-mob mentality.
You make your case by telling us what these people have done, not what people say they have done.
The fact that Livingstone is still under suspension its totally immaterial - he is not guilty until he has been found so.
A "serious issue."
If you think that three people who have been accused of antisemitism for criticising the Israeli government and have yet to be found guilty of the charge, out of a membership of a quarter of a million is "a serious issue", you are living on a different planet than the rest of us.
You continue to defend a statement of the Israeli Minister who claims that it is Antisemitic to criticise Israeli policy
She said what she said, you have had it put up numerous times, it has been interpreted a#by the world press exactly as I have described - the implications of what she said was the reason it hit the world headlines - yet you still deny it.
I really don't think we can go any further with this.
"It would, and it will if such a thing ever happens. You really are making up shit again now Jim."
You've deied making these claims Keith - now you are at it again.
This is old news
I do not "make things up", - nor do I expect an apology or a withdrawal from you.
Netanyahu appoints Ayelet Shaked—who called for genocide of Palestinians
Translation from the Washington Post
The leftist site Mondoweiss offers a full translation of Shaked's controversial posting, which quotes Elitzur, a former Netanyahu adviser, here. Some excerpts:
The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started...
"Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."
"If that is true, give an example."
CRITICIZING ISRAEL IS THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 08:50 AM

See "Freedom of Speech" wins out again.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 03:03 PM

?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 03:10 PM

Well, the author of that piece advocating genocide of Palestinians evidently did have freedom of speech to make it, and the Israeli Minister of Justice did have freedom to post it online. Is that what Terbus meant by talking of a victory for free speech?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 03:32 PM

Kevin and Jim,
But Ayalet Shaked is in fact Israeli Minister of Justice, Keith, and there seems to be convincing evidence that she did make that post which does genocide

No there is not.
Ms Shaked protested that the quote had been mistranslated into English from Hebrew and insisted she was not calling for indiscriminate killing.
Even in the translation, she only refers to those who have given support to actual terrorists, not "all Palestinians."
Once again you swallow all anti-Israel propaganda without question.

Jim,
you refuse even to tell us what the accusations of Antisemitism are and are totally relying on your own interpretation of the opinions of others.

We all are Jim because Labour is keeping it secret, but numerous prominent Labour members and officials, including the entire NEC and even Chakrabarti all state that Labour has a serious problem with antisemitism.
We do know about about Shah's comments.
In yours and Steve's opinion they are not antisemitic, but her antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, so what is your opinion worth?.

You continue to defend a statement of the Israeli Minister who claims that it is Antisemitic to criticise Israeli policy

No I do not, and I have repeatedly stated that it is not antisemitic.
The minister did not claim it was either.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

Smear that funky feces white boy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 02:30 AM

Q.E.D.

"feces" Greg F. - WTF????

Yet another insightful, informative and thought provoking post from Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 03:24 AM

"Ms Shaked protested that the quote had been mistranslated into English from Hebrew "
Oh - for crying out loud - not another ***** excuse for this vicious crowd?
Do you have any evidence for this apart from #denials from the regime.
Her blog, in which she put up an already long established, unchallenged and long deplored quote, was recognised for what it was and her appointment was condemned because she had made it.
The actual blog in Hebrew is fully available in the press untranslated.
You have gone to great lengths to smear British Labour party members on the basis of unsubstantiated accusations from politicians seeking to stop a boycott of Israel, yet you leap to the defence of somebody who has advocated the genocide of Arabs and has suggested that all criticism of Israel is Antisemitic.
No need to ask which side you are on Keith.
"You really are making up shit again now Jim."
I don't see and apology or a withdrawal of your accusation that I made this up - but that doesn't seem to be part of your make-up - and you wonder why people call you names?      
"We all are Jim because Labour is keeping it secret, "
So it is not just the Anti Semotes in the Labour Party, but the whole lot of them now?
THIS IS PROBABLY AS STUPIDLY PATHETIC AS IT GETS - IF THESE ACCUSATIONS HAVE ANY BASIS WHATEVER, WHY HAVEN'T THE ACCUSERS SUBSTANTIATED THEM BY TELLING US WHAT THEY ARE - THE PRESS WOULD LOVE TO PUBLISH WORD-FOR-WORD ACCOUNTS OF LABOUR PARTY MEMBERS ATTACKING THE JEWISH PEOPLE - CORBYN WOULD NOT HAVE STOOD A CHANCE IF THEY HAD
No attack on the Jewish People by Labour Party members have ever come to light - I'm sure if they had, you would have been the first to put them up.
Your arguments, both in favour of the Israeli regime and your hatred of The Labour Party have now become one of high farce.
Just when I thought things couldn't become more entertaining!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 03:48 AM

Shaked isn't on her own, of course
Maybe another "mistranslation - waddya thing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 04:31 AM

And "Genocide" was mentioned in that article where Jim?

As the article stated ISIS have been beheading those they consider to be "disloyal Arabs" for years now - can you show us where you have complained in one of your multi-coloured, upper case, spittle-flecked rants about the physical act of "disloyal Arabs" being beheaded as opposed to some Israeli nationalist politician merely talking about it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 04:45 AM

Unlike its neighbours, Israel does not do capital punishment.
Even terrorist killers are not executed, and they often do not even complete their sentences. If Hamas captures an Israeli they are all released.

The actual blog in Hebrew is fully available in the press untranslated.

Then why did Washington Post have to use the anti Israel Mondoweiss translation?

IF THESE ACCUSATIONS HAVE ANY BASIS WHATEVER, WHY HAVEN'T THE ACCUSERS SUBSTANTIATED THEM BY TELLING US WHAT THEY ARE

Because the accusers are Labour supporters who want it dealt with within the Party they have loyally supported all their adult lives.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:11 AM

"Because the accusers are Labour supporters who want it dealt with within the Party they have loyally supported all their adult lives."
So even the Jews in the Labour Party are liars who are prepared to appease Antisemitism by covering it up
YOU REALLY COULD NOT MAKE THIS UP!!!
As far as "Genocide Jenny", the Isaraeli Minister is concerned, she is the only one to have claimed mistranslation
The Hebrew version is available for anybody to translate.
So you really think the world is devoid of people who can't read Hebrew.
The bloody woman removed her blog as soon as it was brought to notice - if it was a "mistranslation", why not leave it up to prove that fact.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:33 AM

"And "Genocide" was mentioned in that article where Jim?"
It is implicit in her statement and has been recognised as such
Read what she said.
I assume you are not claiming it is a mistranslation if you are questioning the wording?
You pair need a site meeting to plan strategy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:34 AM

So even the Jews in the Labour Party are liars who are prepared to appease Antisemitism by covering it up

I do not believe they are lying.
I also believe they want it dealt within the Party to which they have devoted most of their lives.

The bloody woman removed her blog as soon as it was brought to notice - if it was a "mistranslation", why not leave it up to prove that fact.

It was not even her words.
She posted it in the immediate aftermath of a terrorist atrocity that had brought shock and outrage to the whole country.
Three schoolkids were kidnapped on their way home and butchered by Hamas.
The post called for those who aid the terrorists to be treated as terrorists themselves. She withdrew it when her outrage subsided.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:39 AM

"And "Genocide" was mentioned in that article where Jim?"
It is implicit in her statement

It is not.

and has been recognised as such

By whom Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:53 AM

Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings……
This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started……
war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure……
…..because the enemy soldiers hide out among the population, and it is only through its support that they can fight. Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there……"

All of which equals genocide.
Given the other Minister's quote, (so far ignored, but I have little doubt that there is a "mistranslation on the way), slaughtering Arabs who are "disloyal" to Israel, seems to be endemic to this vicious regime.
"I do not believe they are lying."
You've just said they are - by refusing to specify what Antisemitism is taking place in the Labour party
"It was not even her words."
She blogged it, even though it had never been published - even worse.
She made public a statement which was considered unpublishable.
It was originally made by the Head of the Settlers, who was also a senior advisor to the Israeli Government, which implicates the whole ***** lot of them.
"The post called for those who aid the terrorists"
The post specifically states that response should be indiscriminate
Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings……
This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people.
Now we appear to be moving on from "mistranslation" to she didn't mean what she said.
Make up your ***** mind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 07:36 AM

By the way
This conversation is now ended until you have the good grace to withdraw your accusation of my making things up and you apologise for it.
I'm fed up to the back teeth with these unjustified slanderous lies which always happen when you are presented with facts you can't handle.
You are the first to whinge when people insult you, yet your behaviour is permanently insultingly dishonest to thosse who disagree with you.
You are a fine example of a pro Israeli sycophant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

The words were not hers, were quoted at a time of horror and outrage at an atrocity involving the murder of kids in cold blood, and does not advocate "genocide" anyway.

I will be happy to discuss this further if you start or reopen an Israel thread, but this is about antisemitism.

Why do you always turn any discussion into anti-Israel propaganda?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 11:52 AM

Jim Carroll - 11 Oct 16 - 03:48 AM

The link you supplied does not contain the word "genocide" let alone make any reference to it.

Now Jim where is your multi-coloured, upper case, spittle-flecked rant about the physical act of "disloyal Arabs" being beheaded by their fellow Arabs in the Middle-East.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 01:42 PM

Does anyone ever describe actions they are supporting as genocide?

Note the continuing efforts of the Turkish government to deny that the 1915 massacre of the Armenians amounted to genocide. A genocide that was cited by Hitler as an example of what a state can get away with doing. Though of course, even if the word had been invented at the time, it is pretty unlikely Hitler would ever have used it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 01:43 PM

Why do you always turn any discussion into anti-Israel propaganda?

Smear that funky feces right.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 01:55 PM

"The link you supplied does not contain the word "genocide" let alone make any reference to it.
"You've had the wording of the blog.
Taking revenge in the entire population for the actions of fighters and compounding that with "This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people" amounts to Genocide (def. the mass extermination of human beings, esp. of a particular race or nation").
Are you really going to defend this statement on a quibbling point of semantics, as you attempted to in the case of the massacre of refugees at Sabra Shatila - surely not??
It really is about time you moved away from your apparently "John and Jane" level of literacy
"The words were not hers, were quoted at a time of horror and outrage"
So - all the killings done by the Palestinians were done ar a time when they were being persecuted, terrorised, murdered and made homeless by the Israelis - would you excuse them?
Sure you would.
Do you realise how much you've added to the entertainment here by your shift from my making it up, to "mistranslation" ad now actually defending this filth?
And yet more "thread drift" on a topic you have ben happy to participate in until you find yourself in the klarts
You are predictable enough to be downright boring
You really are a piece of work Keith - and still no apology or retraction.
Takes all sorts, I suppose.
Have a good night now - d'y'all hear?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 03:58 AM

There is no question of a genocide of Israeli Arabs.
They have full citizenship rights and Israel, unlike its neighbours, does not even have capital punishment.

Why are we taliking about Israel again?
As you keep saying, antisemitism is not linked to anti-Israelism.

You tried to make both Labour Party threads about Israel, and now you are trying the same trolling with this one.
The subject is the meaning of antisemitism.
No-one here is arguing that it is antisemitic to criticise Israel, so please drop it.

I would enjoy another Israel debate, but only on an Israel thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:50 AM

"They have full citizenship rights and Israel, unlike its neighbours, does not even have capital punishment."
On paper at least - in practice, that is not the case - you have been given the Inequality Report several times, and just as ever bunch of facts that sporlight what is happening in Israel, you choose to ignore it.
If the two ministers have their way, that would expand into the legalised killing of Arabs.
"As you keep saying, antisemitism is not linked to anti-Israelism."
Israel has chosen to target Britain by accusing an British political party of anitisemitism - you have supported them doing so by joining in with those accusations.
You have new even gone so far as to accuse British Jews in the Labour Party of covering up antisemitism for the sake of the Party.
That is why we are discussing Israel.
If you care to read Mac's OP, you will see that he mentions Israel four times, Bobad immediately responded with nine mentions, then Terribus with eight.
You were a bit slow off the mark and let Will Fly in before you, but then you entered the fray with four mentions.
You were happy to defend Israel to your heart's content when the ball was at your feet - now it's been taken away, you cry "foul"
Stop interfering with the democracy of this forum, yet again
Jim Carroll