BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 02:56 PM

"However, are you not suspicious of people who single out Israel for attack, always and only criticising Israel while ignoring much worse rights abusers all around Israel?"

No I am not. If we are discussing Israeli policy, it is perfectly valid to criticise it without having to go round the world comparing Israel with everyone else. There is no double standard. In other contexts we criticise US foreign policy, Assad, the Brexit liars, Thatcher's neofascism, Blair's lying warmongering, Putin's hubristic manipulations, and, well, a lot more. Insisting that we always criticise someone else as well every time we criticise Israeli policy IS the double standard. You are guilty of that, and, in so doing, you are being antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 03:14 PM

"However, are you not suspicious of people who single out Israel for attack,"
Given Israel' track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?
Nobody ignores other abusers except maybe the " decent democracies" who sell them arms and pay their respects to dead despots while a journalist is being given 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
ASSAD'S HENCHMEN LIVE IN LUXURY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:18 AM

"Jim: I do not think you need to make me such an offer nor do I need to engage it."
Nor do you need to sling your accusations of "antisemitism" about - that doesn't stop you from doing so
I used the term "Jew-baiting" because I was seeing what had begun as some interesting comments degenerating into repetitive ad-hominem attacks including some scatology which I did not think was helpful or appropriate. I used no names and did not accuse you of "antisemitism". (However "the guilty flee where no man pursueth")

"It's a fact of life that Jews have lived with since Adam was a cowboy."
Interesting statement from someone from the U.S. - remind me how long the Native Americans occupied your continent.
In Alaska they imply that it's forever. Practically speaking their practical options would be to be to have either Russian or English as their lingua franca. What happened to many natives under various Christian school systems to take away their language and culture wasn'
t pretty. What happened to the Aleuts under the Russians was even less so.

Liking or disliking people or religions doesn't come into this argument; it's a matter of how we react to others as human beings - which is exactly what this is all about.
Sounds very nice but refer to the thread title and OP.

We could have sat on our hands and done nothing when Hitler began persecution the Jews - in Britain's and America's case, our political administrations did - here in Britain, some took to the streets to prevent it happening there - my family among them - my father went to war in 1937 and became a "premature anti-fascist" according to MI5 - his life was ruined for nearly two decades for his doing so.
I get involved in these arguments because I agree totally with the Holocaust survivor friend who once told me "never again - not for anybody".
I find this honourable. Obviously not you, but The English have a long sad streak of antisemitism for the last few hundred years but it was an English antisemtism ("we don't like 'em but we don't believe in killing them") which I find rather touching-no joke. The English played a major part in saving Jews after Hitler assumed Chancellorship and the Nazis started passing a huge range of anti-Jewish legislation. I once found myself studying in a legal library which had some of these legal books on their shelves.

If you believe me to be an antisemite, as you have said -have the good manners to justify your accusation - otherwise, don't make it.
We have far too many trolls on this forum as it is.
Agreed. But I made my comment on the appearance of things to me and did not accuse anyone specifically of being antisemitic because it can become an entry to a hall of mirrors. Remember my feeling is that may people who do not like Jews have often become moral heroes when it comes to action. The people who helped feed Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were often criminals who sold them food and weapons, but without them fewer would have survived or been able to die fighting.

We also have a tiny band of genuine antisemites who are prepared to put the interests of an extremist right-wing administration over those of The Jewish People as a whole (including the "self-hating" ones) - how about commenting on them instead of backing them up?
Are you making a reference to those who support the State of Israel in these forums beyond what you consider justified? We may not agree in all particulars but that does not lessen our common humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:46 PM

This is not about "supporting the state of Israel." It is about supporting the actions of successive Israeli regimes, with reference to their behaviour towards Palestinians in particular though not exclusively. Gargantuan efforts have been made by several of us in this forum to make that distinction crystal clear. Your final reference, which includes the remark "beyond what you consider justified" seems to show that you are failing to avoid that conflation and are, therefore, falling into the Keith/Bobad/Teribus trap of seeing any criticism of "Israel" as antisemitic. Let's hope that it's accidental in your case.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 02:50 AM

If we are discussing Israeli policy, it is perfectly valid to criticise it without having to go round the world comparing Israel with everyone else.

Yes, but if they only ever attack Israel, you have to wonder why.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 04:07 AM

"Yes, but if they only ever attack Israel, you have to wonder why."
You are in Dalek mode again Keith
I repeat
Given Israel' track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?
Nobody ignores other abusers except maybe the " decent democracies" who sell them arms and pay their respects to dead despots while a journalist is being given 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
Have the good grace not to repeat something as f your question had not been answered - honesty really isn't difficult once you get the hang of it.
You and your mates are the only ones who have consistently justified persecution and mass-murder on this forum.
I'll answer your thoughtful points when I have time Robo - thanks for making them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:55 AM

Given Israel' track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?

Informed, intelligent people understand that those accusations are just lying propaganda from Israel's enemies, otherwise Israel would be a pariah nation among decent, liberal democracies.
It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 06:39 AM

"It is about supporting the actions of successive Israeli regimes, with reference to their behaviour towards Palestinians in particular though not exclusively."

The behaviour of successive Israeli regimes towards "Palestinians" has been formed to a great extent by the threats and actions of "Palestinians" against the population of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 06:48 AM

Irrelevant. I was clarifying what I took to be a conflation by robomatic of two separate notions (though I may be doing said person an injustice), not starting all that up again. Do focus.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:23 AM

"understand that those accusations are just lying propaganda from Israel's enemies,"
Then they would be up in arms defending Israel, not keeping silnt about it.
Can you actually produce anything from "Informed, intelligent people" actually defending Sabra Shatila, or the massacres of Palestinian civilians ovr the last few incursions, or the persistent seizures of land that continues to take place, or the use of chemical and anti personnel weapons... of coure you can't.
The only pathetic defence you have offered is their silence and even that is coming to an end
RECENT GAZA INCURSION
U.S. CONDEMNS GAZA SCHOOL ATTACK
U.S. OPPOSES SEIZURE of LAND
HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS
It is spinelessly dishonest to claim the silence of politicians is tantamount to support.
If Israel had any real supporters, they would be denouncing the torrent of world criticim in the pres and from Himan Rights organisations and eye witnesses.
"has been formed to a great extent by the threats and actions of "Palestinians" against the population of Israel."
Every tyrant in history from the Nazis down, have claimed "self-defence" for their atrocities - Israel is only the last in a long line.
The maps 'then and now' maps you have chosen to ignore make it quite clear who is the aggressor and who the victim as do the massive discrepancy between the casualties.
Israel is a sophisticated, well armed and nuclear facilitated power seeking to expand its territory opposed by a poorly armed, poorly trained impoverished state defending their rapidly disappearing homes
Israel PLANS LARGEST LAND SEIZURE SINCE 2014
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Once again - arguments about whether criticicisms made of Israel and of those who oppose those criticisms are justified are completely irrelevant in this context. The only relevant issue is whether people who make such criticisms are motivated by antisemitism.

My contention is that making such criticisms is not in itself evidence of antisemitism. Such criticisms could indeed be motivated by antisemitism, but in order to make that charge some kind of evidence is essential, and I haven't seen any.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:59 AM

Given Israel' track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?

One should be suspicious of the motives of anybody who disseminates such egregious calumnies.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:29 AM

"One should be suspicious of the motives of anybody who disseminates such egregious calumnies."
One should be suspicious of hysterical trolls who vomit accusations of Antisemitism whenever Israel is criticised then go on to defend Antisemitic attacks on Jewish Parliamentarians which accuses them of entering into a pact of silence to cover up antisemitism so as not to endanger their political careers - in essence, making their support for Labour more important then the well-bing of the Jewish People
This is what you supported Bobad.   
You have no interest in the Jewish People - your first love is the right-wing Israeli regime.
That goes for all three of you.
Israeli atrocities speak for them selves - we even watched the result on television two years ago
You are one of those people who hasn't the balls to become involved in real discussion - you settle for others doing the job for you while you egg them on from the sidelines.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:54 AM

Jim,
Can you actually produce anything from "Informed, intelligent people" actually defending Sabra Shatila, or the massacres of Palestinian civilians

No, because they do not hold Israel responsible for any massacres or war crimes.

Can you actually produce anything from "Informed, intelligent people" and decent liberal democracies actually accusing Israel of massacres or war crimes?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 09:11 AM

"Every tyrant in history from the Nazis down, have claimed "self-defence" for their atrocities - Israel is only the last in a long line."

Sorry Jim do you want that list of Arab attacks on Jewish settlers and the attacks by Arabs against Israel since 1920 - there were no attacks by the Arabs of the region prior to the creation of the League of Nations Mandate because the Arabs of the region knew full well what their Ottoman rulers response would be - they'd have wiped them out without a second thought.

If 15,000+ missiles were fired into my country it would not take a Sherlock Holmes to deduce that my country was under attack or that any response mounted by the Government of my country would justifiably come under the categorisation of "Self-Defence".

Done any further work on the capability of a bulldozer to dig a mass grave Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

Justin Amler

It seems everyone is an expert on Jews these days...except Jews!

We have a 70 year old organisation called UNESCO telling us about our history, even though we're 4000 years older than them.
We have the White House deciding that our 3000 year old capital isn't actually in Israel.
We have the US State Department informing us, the indigenous people of the area, that living in our own land is unaceptable, though I don't remember it being unacceptable to kick off the Native Americans from their own land.
We have the United Nations telling us what we need to do to achieve peace, even though they've never actually solved any conflicts themselves.
We have the European Union telling us how labelling tomatoes is the road to peace, even as their own members tear each other apart.
We have the Arab world...oy the Arab world... telling us about human rights, while their streets are filled with blood and conflict.

So, at the risk of being controversial, let me, a Jew, tell you about the Jews...

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

The usual warmed-over BooSpew, false equivalence & irrelevance.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:29 AM

"Sorry Jim do you want that list of Arab attacks on Jewish settlers and the attacks by Arabs against Israel since 1920"
I know who attacked who and I have given you the casualty comparisons.
I have also give you the maps of territory losses
I am not interested in what happened nearly a century ago when this territory was part of the loot takn by the British Empire - it was not theirs to give away.
Your suggestion that the Arabs have no right to the territory is really no different to Shaz's suggestion that Israel; should be moved to America.
The missiles fired into Israel don't even measure up to the dead massacred at sabra Shatile, never mind those who died before or since - they are a pitiful; response to attempted ethnic cleansing by a nuclear facilitated, well armed power - David sling against Goliath armed strength, to use a Biblical comparison
The ratio of Palestinian/Israeli deaths deaths of in the present decade is 8 to 1 - so much for what happened a century ago.
This is a war for territory by Israel - it is not defensive - look at the maps
AN ISRAELI JEW'S ACCOUNT OF THE CONFLICT
"Bregman describes Israel as "a heavy‑handed and brutal occupier". He regards the four decades of occupation chronicled in this book as a black mark on Israeli, and indeed, Jewish history. He finds it depressing that a people that has suffered such unspeakable tragedies of its own can behave so cruelly towards another. The only sign of hope in this otherwise bleak picture is that the occupation may carry within it the seeds of its own demise. By forcing the Palestinians to live in squalor, Bregman concludes, Israel has "hardened those under its power, making them more determined to put an end to the occupation, by violent means if necessary, and live a life of dignity and freedom"."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:04 AM

Casualty comparisons? WTF have they got to do with it? The fact that the Arabs of the region are piss poor at waging war should direct them towards a peaceful resolution, but they appear to be on an extremely long learning curve.

On the subject of Maps Jim, where is the one drawn up by Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah or the Palestine Authority that shows the borders of this two-state solution they keep lying to the United Nations about. You know it does not exist and I know it does not exist, their avowed aim is to destroy the State of Israel and annihilate its population.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:09 AM

the Arabs of the region are piss poor at waging war

Perhaps if the had the billions in financial & military & tactical aid the U.S. regularly doles out to the Israeli government they'd be a bit better at it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:23 AM

No they wouldn't Greg, they used to be given all the help and all the technical aid and support that the U.S.S.R/Russia could deploy and yet they still lost. The "Armies" of the Arab States in the region are not there to defend their countries from foreign invasion they are there to suppress the civilian populations of their own countries. If you doubt that then look at their track record.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:37 AM

"On the subject of Maps Jim, where is the one drawn up by Hamas, "
Wha....??
Aren't the official ones enough for you.
You're as pathetic as your mate
You are the one who disputes casualty figures before you decide if it's a massacre worth condemning.
I should have thought the 1,462 civilians 495, children and 253 women.
in the last round of butchery would have been enough for anybody - not for you massacre appeasers apparently.
ANOTHER ISRAELI VIEW ON THE REGIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:44 AM

they used to be

There's your problem, Colonel- you're talking "used to be" and I'm talking now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

"Given Israel's track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?"
How does this not describe the Palestinian's behavior toward their own people--as well as their stated intention toward Israel and its inhabitants?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

Arguments abouts the rights and wrongs of Israel and Palestine are completely irrelevant to a discussion about "antisemitism" in the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:52 PM

Loose use of terms such as "Israel''s" and "the Palestinian's" [sic] is not helpful. Ordinary Israelis and Palestinians are not the prime movers in this conflict. Talk about their leaders instead.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:51 PM

Talk about their leaders

True in the context of discussions about the situation in that part of the world.

But of course, talking about their leaders in itself has nothing whatsoever to do with identifying whether there is any actual basis for accusations of "anti-semitism" in the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:59 PM

True. Though you didn't exactly specify the Labour Party in your thread title. Hey ho.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:12 PM

Also true - but the same logic applies to people of any party or none when they are accused of antisemitism. There has to be some indication that their attitude towards Israel is founded on hostility to Jews. With real anti-semites there would be no problem in demonstrating that.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:42 PM

Absolutely agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:55 PM

"How does this not describe the Palestinian's behavior toward their own people-"
Does -t - are the Palestinians actually attempting to ethnically cleanse each other or create an apartheid State?
Sounds like a nasty dose of schizophrenia to me
Are you really suggesting that the Palestinians have a track record of massacring each other
I'm afraid I'll have to sleep on that one!!
"as well as their stated intention toward Israel and its inhabitants?"
Palestine is fighting a defensive battle - is nobody going to refer to the territory that has been taken from them.
I've mentioned this before, but the 'terrorism' attributed to the Palestinians is really no different than that used by Israeli Freedom Fighters against Britain and Palestinians
You really should read Jewish Historian Benny Morris
If one group were terrorists, so were both
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 06:57 PM

Jim, go back to the history books. The Zionists bought land from its owners, the Ottomans. The Palestinians were tenant farmers. They never had title to the land. The Palestinians [sic] committed pogroms and murders far back prior to and during the British Mandate. The Mufti of Jerusalem made common cause with the Nazis to kill the Jews. Fortunately, they were unsuccessful.
Which part of the region has the most freedom? Which part of the region kills or imprisons its journalists if they attempt to speak the truth? Which part of the region holds elections on a regular basis? Which part of the region has full citizens of several religions? Which part of the region has ever made an honest attempt at peace?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:20 PM

Historical context is a bitch, department . . .

Einstein moved from Germany to Princeton, N.J. in 1933.

In 1939 Princeton students voted him second greatest man.
For greatest man, Princeton students voted for Adolf Hitler.
(For third, Neville Chamberlain)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:41 PM

There is a further twist to this however - the possibility of a kind of secondary antisemitism, where someone who has no kind of antagonism towards Jews, but who is strongly critical of Israel, could be trapped into accepting the claim that Israel and the Jewish diaspora are essentially one, and on that basis could develop a kind of antagonism towards all Jews.

Insofar as this may happen some of the responsibility for that lies with those who promote this claim on behalf of Israel, and in doing so risk actually promoting secondary anto-semitism - but clearly this kind of secondary anti-semitism is totally unacceptable and irrational. Whenever it might arise it should be countered by those whose criticism of Israel are not corrupted in this way.

I would take it that this is what the current moral panic around the Labour Party is primarily about. However the existence of many articulate and dedicated Jews among those most active in criticising what Israel has become militates very strongly against that kind of development, and there appears to be very little evidence of it actually being present to any real extent. Accusations of anti-semitism have certainly not been restricted to those who may have fallen into that trap.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Which part of the region has ever made an honest attempt at peace? Well, the word "honest" is key, isn't it? Every set of peace talks between Palestinians and successive Israeli regimes has been a sham. Why?   Because there has never been the slightest motivation for the Israeli regime to offer even the tiniest compromise. Why? Because they have always been able to do exactly, and in full, whatever they wanted to do. Land grabs, invasions, repression, massacres, apartheid wall... The nation that gives them by far the most aid, including three billion per annum for their military (for a country of eight million), puts absolutely no conditions on that aid (AIPAC sees to that). Netanyahu could probably boil Gaza babies and eat them for lunch and his aid still wouldn't be threatened. Why would he dream of entering talks with the slightest prospect of his having to give a single inch when he knows he'll never have to?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:05 PM

The moral panic around the Labour Party is stoked only by disaffected ex-Blairites and Brownites and those outside the party with a dishonest agenda involving finding a focus for their faux-antisemitism. I've fought racism all my life and have been even fallen out with people very close to me about it. I am a Labour Party member. I am not going to belong to a setup that espouses any form of racism or other forms of discrimination. My bar is set pretty high apropos of that, though I've been around long enough to know that I can never expect perfection.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:33 PM

Land grabs - typical anti-Semitic trope
invasions - typical anti-Semitic trope
repression - typical anti-Semitic trope
massacres - typical anti-Semitic trope
apartheid wall - typical anti-Semitic trope

But, nah, he's not an anti-Semite he's just fond of disseminating lies to demonize a country and it's people, a country which is a model of democracy, tolerance, equality and individual rights whose neighbours are committed to it's annihilation and the genocide of it's Jewish population. But that doesn't seem to bother Shaw at all in his obsessive hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:36 AM

So Bobad has just put it in a nutshell
Criticism of Israeli policy is the "new racism" that is referred to in the Parliamentary report on The Labour Party.
Barnacle and Robo seem to go along with that - Robo appears to go as far as comparing Einstein to Hitler - have to say, I have never come across that one before!
The Labour politician, Naz Shah was cited as being antisemitic because she suggested that the Israelis be moved to America - she withdrew that statement, admitted that it was antisemitic and apologized for it - but that aside.
Now we have EBarnacle suggestions that the Palestinians have no right to land that has been occupied by them for many centuries - millenia even - because of a deal that was done between two Empires - a deal between two absentee landlords, as it would be recognised here in Ireland
Palestinians have no right to their land and, presumably, should be moved elsewhere.
Where does this differ in any way from Naz Shah's antisemitism - the mass eviction of an entire people, as B is suggesting (or even their being allowed to stay on out of kindness) is ethnic cleansing, pure and simple.
B. confirms that by holding up two religions and suggesting that one is more fit than the other to stay were they are, putting this conflict on a religious war footing based on "my sky fairy is better than your sky fairy".
This is utter, primitive nonsense.
Religion has no place here, and those who suggest it has are no better than Isis.
This is about people of two different cultures being allowed to live peacefully together without hindrance.
Today's reality cannot be infected by what happened when Palestine belonged to a rapacious Empire - God knows (pun intended) today's world has enough post-Empire problems without adding Israel to the list.
The situation is starkly simple - the Palestinians are where they are because of history
They are not going to move willingly, hopefully they will continue to resist any efforts to make them -
Just as hopefully, the present Israeli regime will not seek 'a final solution' - their record with refugees is not one of the best.
There are already 7.2 million Palestinian refugees scattered over this planet today, one in three refugees in the world are Palestinian.
1.4 million, one third of registered Palestinian refugees, live in the 58 UNRWA-recognised refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank - that does not include those not registered.
Are you people seriously suggesting that that number be added to because they pray to a different bogey-man?
As far as the Brirish Labour Party is concerned, the latest Parliamentary Report has let the cat out of the back by declaring that Labour is guilty of NEW RACISM - criticism of Israel, as far as they are concerned has now become antisemitism.
Isn't it a shame that Apartheid South Africa didn't thik that one up - they'd never have needed to pull out.
I'm sure Israel - the state that enouraged them to become nuclear weaponised - would have backed them up on that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 04:52 AM

By the way Bobad
Equating Israeli behaviour with the Jewish People - typical anti-Semitic trope
Supporting a State that claims criticism of its actions are unchallenged and describes Israelis and Jews who do so as "Self-hating Jews"   - typically Fascism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:29 AM

Supporting a State that claims criticism of its actions are unchallenged and describes Israelis and Jews who do so as "Self-hating Jews"   - typically Fascism

Israel has never done any of those things.
Its neighbours, e.g. Turkey and Egypt, do lock up journalists critical of their governments, and in Russia they are gunned down in the streets, but Israel allows and welcomes criticism.
They have a free media. Haaretz is always criticising the government and their policies.
They have opposition parties in government whose job is to challenge the government, so your claims against Israel are false, and it begs the question, why do you not criticise those countries where it is true?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 06:11 AM

"Israel has never done any of those things."
Yes it has Keith - you can deny the statements made by the Israeli minister until you are blue in the face but that's what she said and that's what he meant.
She describes condemnation of Israeli policies as
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
How many of these links do you want - there are pages of them?
The recent Labour report describes it as "the new Racism" - which amounts to the same thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 06:17 AM

Neither Keith nor bobad are worth responding to. Don't let them get to you. Their loveless inhumanity is incurable. Anyway, this is going a bit mental in two threads at the same time, thanks to them, which isn't much good, to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:01 AM

"Don't let them get to you"
They don't, but their presence here is an extremely helpful reminder of Pro Israeli fanaticism at its most extreme.
Trolls are fine when you don't have to take them seriously
I'm afraid the current "new racism" accusation against Labour makes the two threads inseparable.
Mayv#b we should get this out of the way by agreeing that criticism is not antisemitic and if that is what Labour is guilty f, thre is no case to answer.
Then we can move on.
How about my contention that, by definition, it is antisemitic to attribute Israelis actions to the Jewish People, therefore it is antisemitic to accuse those who criticise Israel of antisemitism.
In the long run, this is what this is all about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:07 AM

That's what I've just said on the other thread. Oops, sorry, Teribus. I didn't say it. I typed it. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:12 AM

According to Shaw the Jews invade their neighbours to massacre them - that is a blood libel worthy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Like MGM would say "you don't think you're an anti-Semite but you are".

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:34 AM

" that is a blood libel worthy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion."
Mumbo jumbo nonsense and not even accurate in Jewish lore.
Definition - "blood libel noun
an accusation that Jewish people used the blood of Christians in religious rituals, especially in the preparation of Passover bread, that was perpetrated throughout the Middle Ages and (sporadically) until the early 20th century."
That the Israelis massacred Palestinians who got in their way is beyond doubt and a matter of history.
The British left Palestine to the sound of occupied houses being cleared for settlement by hand-grenades being tossed in.
Israel has perpetrated and facilitated massacres throughout its history.
As far as I know, Steve has accused only Israelis of massacre - not the Jews.
Equating one with the other is antisemitic by definition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:16 AM

Jim,
but that's what she said

No it is not.
She was talking about anti-Semites who direct their hate at Israel, and never suggested that anyone who criticises Israel is an anti semite.

It is undeniable, even by you, that Israel allows and welcomes criticism.

It is undeniable, even by you, that they have a free media. Haaretz is always criticising the government and their policies.

It is undeniable, even by you, that they have opposition parties in government whose job is to challenge the government, so your claims against Israel are false, and it begs the question, why do you not criticise those countries where it is true?
Why do you always and only single out Israel for your false claims and lying propaganda?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

Finished Keith
She described criticism as the new antisemitism
All the links give exactly that as a headline
The is what she said, that is what she meant.
The same woman proposed total war against all Palestinians
End of story
The foreign minister I linked to and you have ignored proposed that all "disloyal Arabs" should be beheaded
Perhaps he meant only giving them a haircut!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:42 AM

If the powers that be here think that they are protecting freedom of speech by allowing bobad to come here making comments of that nature they are seriously deluded. Hate speech is in itself an attack on freedom of speech. I honestly don't think we should be responding to him, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:06 PM

Hate speech Shaw, like Land grabs, invasions, repression, massacres, apartheid wall... right. Let me remind the folks again who has been threatened with suspension from the forum more than once for hate speech.