BS: From my eyes Elections

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:57 PM

Gerrymander.


1812
1812, Americanism; after E. Gerry (governor of Massachusetts, whose party redistricted the state in 1812) + (sala)mander, from the fancied resemblance of the map of Essex County, Mass., to this animal, after the redistricting

Dictionary .com.

Always happy to assist the intellectually challenged....I'm too good for this world really!    :0(

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 04:41 PM

Regarding The war in Syria, the key is of course the removal of the Gadhafi regime and the subsequent political vacuum which was filled by Jihadists. The fall of Gadhafi, promoted against the better judgement of President Obama by his secretary of State Mrs Clinton led to the rise of Isis and the move into Iraq and Syria.

Had Mrs Clinton succeeded in having Assad removed from power in the same manner as Gadhafi, ISIS would now control most of Syria Libya, and Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:19 PM

Your "explanation" of jerrymander does not connect in the slightest with the way you misused the word in the post I picked you up on. You clearly didn't know what it means. Take your intellectual challenges elsewhere, preferaby to another planet since you think you're too good for this one. A mutually advantageous arrangement, I'd suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:23 PM

The kind of people who are leading the Remoaners

As opposed to the kind leading the Brexcreters - Trump-supporting Tory eejits and lying sacks of racist crap?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:24 PM

"Your "explanation" of jerrymander does not connect in the slightest with the way you misused the word in the post I picked you up on"

Well beside the fact that you are unable to spell the word correctly, the "Remoaners" are trying to carve up the result of the referendum in the same manner as Mr Gerry carved up Massachusetts..... no doubt in his political interests.

If you are still having trouble with interpretation.....ask Greg   ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:34 PM

I advise you not to pick me up on my spelling. It may just make me want to go for your jugular every time I see the slightest error in any post of yours, and I'll be looking out from now on. My spelling of jerrymander is a perfectly acceptable variant and the one I've always used. Do your homework if you would rather not make a complete bloody idiot of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:56 PM

I take it that you hadn't heard of the original? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:58 PM

You are a very sad person, this section of the discussion is at an end.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:34 PM

That comma after "person" is ungrammatical. I did warn you.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 09:03 PM

Ake, you have lately spoiled every political thread by changing the subject to your hatred of Hillary. Many posts reek of the vitriol you cast around because of your dislike of someone you know virtually nothing about. You need to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:01 AM

Acme, this is a thread about the US election, in such a discussion it is important that the policies of both candidates are examined. It is also important that the thread does not degenerate into a series of obscene insults directed at one of the candidates.

Mrs Clinton has voiced her support for a "no fly zone" over Syria if she is elected. A "no fly zone" is code for regime change, just as it was in Libya; this policy on its own would stop me from voting for Mrs Clinton as it would bring the US...and by extension the UK, into direct conflict with Russia.

The points I make are not "hatred" but simply an illustration of the extreme flaws in Mrs Clinton's foreign policy.
The US political system has thrown up two very bad candidates and the American people deserve very much better.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:36 AM

Does anyone know what Trump's 'Foreign Policy' is? That's apart from building a 2,000-mile wall to keep Mexicans out (and, somehow, forcing Mexico to pay for it), banning Muslims from entering the US, and kicking out the ones already there?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:40 AM

"Had Mrs Clinton succeeded in having Assad"
Had Assad been removed when he was massacring his own people in Homs, Isis would still be the the bunch of cranks it always was and this war would not have been taking place.
The British Parliament voted not to get involved in a war with Assad, now the world is up to its arse in war in his defence.
"He may be a monster, but he's our monster", seems to be the order of the day
Britain supported both sides of the war in Libya with arms and ammunition - British armed rebels were fighting British armed government forces and the Qdaffi regime had been guaranteed a future because Britain had groomed his son to take over.
I wonder if your hatred of Clinton is because she's a woman - you seem to regard women the way you regard Gays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:47 AM

"Does anyone know what Trump's 'Foreign Policy' is? "
Trump has suggesred the use of nuclear weapons to solve international problems on nine occasions - thinking big seems to be his thing.
FOREIGN DIPLOMACY - TRUMP STYLE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 04:27 AM

Yes, that's kinda what I was hinting at, Jim - it seems that Mr. Trump's idea of 'foreign policy' is a kind of Gunboat-Diplomacy with no option to go back.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 04:29 AM

Oops, pulled the trigger too quick!

If the lunatics really have taken over the asylum that is the US, it really will be 'God Help America' (to paraphrase one of their favourite invocations).

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 04:47 AM

'foreign policy'
Policy ?
Who needs policy when you've got bombs?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:06 AM

They're nearly all here. Wait for the last one and then we can start another thread and get some chat in before they notice.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:26 AM

"They're nearly all here"
Yup That's democracy for you Stu
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:35 AM

Is it I, Lord?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:42 AM

Just no one mention Israel. Whoops.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:52 AM

Or God. I've just mentioned him in the Dylan thread but I think I got away with it...

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:43 AM

Backwoodsman - 24 Oct 16 - 03:36 AM

34% of the electorate voted to leave. 66% didn't - even you should be able to do the maths.

Not quite the full story is it Backwoodsman

Number of local areas declared: 382/382
Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)
Total Electorate: 46,500,001
Turnout: 72.2%
Rejected Ballots: 25,359

If you want to take the total electorate into account

It was 34% of the electorate voted to REMAIN - 66% didn't

37.4% of the total electorate voted to leave
34.7% of the total electorate voted to remain
27.9% of the electorate could did not vote at all.

Of those who felt strongly enough to stir themselves off their backsides to vote 52% voted to leave and 48% voted to remain - live with it.

In the 1975 Referendum voter turn out was 64.03%
In the 2016 Referendum voter turn out was 72.2%

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:56 AM

House!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:03 AM

Just checking your bingo card, Stu .... yep, all correct.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:49 AM

"Number of local areas declared: "
How did the 'Brexit-to-Little-Britain-in-Three-Months Show' get here?
And they accuse us of "thread drift"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:22 AM

No idea Jim but at least the figures I have given are correct and prove that the majority of the electorate who voted voted for the UK to leave the EU.

Now I suppose that those who question that would if the US Presidential turned out a similar result in favour of Hilary Clinton would then advocate that her majority was insufficient and that Trump should really be given another chance. Or would 51.9% Clinton 48.1% Trump be good enough to make Hilary Clinton the next President of the United States of America?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:30 AM

The government announced today that they are to pursue their plan for a third runway at Heathrow, and stated that parliament will have the opportunity to debate and vote on their proposal.

If it's democratic for parliament to debate and vote on this issue, please explain why you believe it would be 'undemocratic' to debate and vote on the terms for Brexit - an issue of vastly greater importance to the whole of the population of the UK.

And your numbers prove precisely what I said - 34% voted to leave, 66% did not vote to leave. You must live in a very warped parallel universe if you genuinely believe that 34 is a greater number than 66.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:43 AM

"No idea Jim but at least the figures I have given are correct and prove that the majority of the electorate who voted voted for the UK to leave the EU."
Course they did - that's why the unemployed of Britain have no alternative to stay at home and by labeled as "scroungers" by 'patriots' like you.
I seem to remember a party that was 'democratically' elected in the early thirties - I can think of at least six million reasons to question that decision.
In the old days, you voted for who you thought was the best - nowadays, it seems the choice is between the least worse - as represented by Clinton and Trump.
Electoral Democracy eh - you can't whack it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:28 AM

My figures of yesterday were correct too, and they corrected a false impression of the two Europe referendums that you tried to present. And your comparison with a presidential election is false. First, you can change your president every four years. Not irrevocable. Second, our referendum was completely skewed. A vote to remain would not have been irrevocable. Future referendums to try to get us to leave would have been perfectly possible, quite likely in fact in the event of a tight result,. but the vote to leave, once Article 50 Is activated, is to, all intents and purposes, irrevocable. Even if we wanted to, it would take decades for us to get back in, and the EU almost certainly wouldn't want us back. That is why the threshold was set way too low. Whilst I vehemently oppose the holding of any referendums on this matter (or any other), if we are going to have one the threshold should have been no lower than 60% leave on a minimum 75% turnout. Comparisons with general elections are invidious and mischievous.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:31 AM

this is a thread about the US election, in such a discussion it is important that the policies of both candidates are examined. It is also important that the thread does not degenerate into a series of obscene insults directed at one of the candidates.

Rich, coming from you, Akenaton, who can only insult one candidate consistently and repeatedly. Johnny-One-Note steps in to comment on the U.S. election - from Scotland.

The opening post may have discussed the US elections but there are others in the world and the tread title doesn't exclude those others. Why don't you look at the mess in the UK after the poorly-considered support of UKIP policies were codified in the national election there, resulting in the bigotted and short-sighted move to leave the European Union. Dwell on that mess for a while, stop prognosticating on something you really don't understand and refuse to consider the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 11:19 AM

Can I just say that, in general, our Proportional Representation system in Ireland is infinitely more democratic than the first-post-the-post fir-up in Britain.
We're sill in the hands of the vulture capitalists and bankers, but at least we know that our politicians can't totally ride rough-shod over public opinion - and the fact that we don't really have a crusading right-wing media capable of being kingmakers at election time, we tend to vote on grass-roots issues rather than Murdoch-concocted ones.
Labour learned that the hard way when it sold out to a right wing party in order to hold office and self-destructed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 11:41 AM

🎼 So right, he said it twice...🎶 😄

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 11:52 AM

How do you add that musical notation??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:02 PM

This was skarpi's thread to start with.

Forgive them, skarpi, they know not what they do, nor do they care to what OP they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

Is it really beyond the scope of this topic to discuss the various aspects of democracy in a subject that is dealing with how an extremist, mysoginst, racist multi-billionaire might just might be awarded with a position that gives him access to the nuclear button?
I think I said this, but I was horrified to see a group of Liverpudlians clapping and cheering for Trump last week - and our own Boris the Bad does look awfully like Donald the Don - with a little less hair!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

Bloody hell Jim, I don't know! They're 'emojis' that became part of the iPad keyboard arrangement several versions of iOS ago. There's a button with a smiley face on it, near the 'numeric' button - hit that and the emojis are displayed, hit the emoji you want, and it pops into your text.

No idea if you can do it from a PC though, I'm almost always on my iPad.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:35 PM

Errrrrmmm, Keberoxu - be careful before you start pointing fingers. The OP himself brought up the subject of Brexit in the sixth post of the thread, 20 Oct 16 - 07:56 PM. That makes it a perfectly legitimate discussion point here, AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 02:58 PM

Thanks BW
Will master this technology one day - still pining for the quill pen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:57 PM

I know that feeling well...!! 😄

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:36 PM

Will master this technology one day - still pining for the quill pen

Not to worry, Jim - I still USE a quill pen upon occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:06 PM

Well I used one of those ultra-modern flowing-bloody-ball ink thingies to write Mrs Steve's birthday card last night. After five minutes the ink still wasn't dry, but I didn't know that, did I, so when I picked it up to shove it in the envelope I smudged the whole bloody lot. Cost me five quid, that card. Luckily, once in pride of place you couldn't see the smudged kisses (nearest I get these days). Give me those nibs on wooden sticks and a bottle of Quink any time!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 01:57 AM

Backwoodsman:

1: "please explain why you believe it would be 'undemocratic' to debate and vote on the terms for Brexit"

It falls within the power of the British Government to set the terms and fully outline their plans for the proposed third runway after at least 12 months of consultation with those who will be responsible for doing the work. The terms and conditions for Brexit on the other hand is a negotiation between two parties and cannot be set by the British Government, and it would be both idiotic and irresponsible of either side in such a negotiation to lay out their stall in public before entering such a negotiation.

2: "your numbers prove precisely what I said - 34% voted to leave, 66% did not vote to leave. You must live in a very warped parallel universe if you genuinely believe that 34 is a greater number than 66. "

Nope it proves that your arithmetic skills are somewhat rusty

17,410,742 out of a total electorate of 46,500,001 works out at 37.44% of the total electorate not 34% as you claim.

If you wish to express things in the way you did then the following is also true:

34.7% of the population voted to remain in the EU - 65.3% did NOT - the actual vote taking the total electorate into account was as follows:

37.4% of the total electorate voted to leave
34.7% of the total electorate voted to remain
27.9% of the electorate could did not vote at all.

So of the 72.2% of the electorate who actually did vote 51.9% voted to leave and 48.1% voted to remain even with your diminished arithmetical skills even you will be able to tell us which is the greater.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:24 AM

Not a single response to the damage that has been done to Britain by this crass decision
Business (or lack of) as usual.
RACIST ATTACKS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:28 AM

ECHOES FROM ACROSS THE POND
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:58 AM

The crass decision would have been to vote remain in order to allow our legislation to be dictated to us by Brussels.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 04:07 AM

It's not my mathematical skills that are in question, Teribus, I'd be willing to pit those against anyone around here - I pulled 34 and 66 from memory, and my 70-year-old brain does occasionally fail me nowadays. However, 34% or 37%, what's 3% between 'friends', especially when it indicates that a comparatively small minority of the electorate expressed a wish to change the status quo by leaving the EU. In those circumstances, it's perfectly reasonable and proper to take a view that the majority, including those who expressed no opinion, are satisfied with the status quo, and are happy to remain.

As Steve has said, the referendum was fatally flawed, it was simply a device introduced by a scared-shitless leader of the Tory party in an effort to ensure a victory at the 2015 GE, the terms were badly set and the whole thing was yet another Camoron Cock-Up.

Democracy demands that issues of significant national and international importance should be debated and voted upon by our elected representatives in parliament, who are certain to be far better informed on the minutiae of the issue than the general public, and whose responsibility it is to make decisions on behalf of all of us. The government has decided to follow the wishes of the minority of the electorate who were seduced by the sound-bites and slogans, and expressed the desire to leave the EU - that's fine - but at the moment, that's all there is.

There will be a long period of negotiation which will, hopefully, result in a set of terms and conditions for our exit. Exit from the EU is the biggest, most significant issue to face the UK since the decision to go to war with Germany in 1939 - why would you, or anyone, wish to deny parliament the opportunity to discuss, debate and vote upon those terms and conditions? Why do you wish to deny our parliament, our very democracy, the chance to do the job it exists to do in the face of the biggest challenge to our economy and society for almost eight decades?

If leaving the EU is such a good idea (and, at the moment that's all it is, an idea - no plan was put in place by the Three Lying Monkeys, just slogans, sound-bites and noise), what are you so afraid of?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 08:32 AM

And our legislation is not 'dictated to us by Brussels - that's another lie peddled by the Blond Bozo, Old Cod-Face, and The Little Scottish Viper. 13% of our laws are proposed by the EU, and they are ratified by our parliament. The remaining 87% arise from our own legislature.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 09:13 AM

"it's perfectly reasonable and proper to take a view that the majority, including those who expressed no opinion, are satisfied with the status quo, and are happy to remain."

"Perfectly reasonable"? No Backwoodsman more like "fatuous".

Your 13% figure is wrong:

"between 1993 and 2014 Parliament passed 945 Acts of which 231 implemented EU obligations of some sort.

It also passed 33,160 Statutory Instruments, 4,283 of which implemented EU obligations. Add both of these together and divide by the total number of laws passed, and you get the 13% figure.

But that's not really an accurate figure because most EU regulations don't require new UK laws. They can be implemented in the UK without new legislation, for example by simply changing administrative rules. So, the 13% figure doesn't take into account EU regulations that don't need additional UK legislation to be brought into force.

If you count all EU regulations, EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments, about 62% of laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 that apply in the UK implemented EU obligations."

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 09:44 AM

Ok, you've demonstrated your skills with Google and Cut & Paste. Let's hear your own ideas.

Answer the question (which I notice you studiously sidestepped) - what is it about the concept of our elected representatives in parliament debating, and voting on, the terms and conditions of exit which the government negotiate with the EU, that you're so afraid of? Why are you so terrified of the UK's democratic process? Wasn't one of the sound-bytes parroted ad nauseam by the Blond Bozo "Take Back Control"? Wasn't he referring to our own parliament "Taking Back Control"?

So why are you so scared of the UK democracy you people claim to have voted in favour of?