BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 06:11 PM

"old farts" just like me.......some call it gaining wisdom

Others, Ake, particularly pertaining to your situation, call it succumbing to dementia.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 05:23 PM

Acme.....in the few milliseconds that I have left (in real time), I am heartened to think that your children will have become "old farts" just like me.......some call it gaining wisdom, it usually comes through life experience.....but not always :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 09:54 AM

"are about the here and now and what is best for the country in the future"

I think that's quite wrong, I see 'the empire' frequently referred to on social media etc. There is a distinct feeling amongst some Scots Nats that they are shrugging off an age old oppressor and corruptor of their culture. In a sense this is true in that the south-east of England has a disproportionate influence over as Scotland, Wales and the North of Ireland as well as the rest of England, but the idea that 'the English' were the sole protagonists in Empire and everyone else was roped is wrong. This is part of the attitude of superiority coming from north of the border.

"or even in fact out of the Leave campaign or May's current gvt"

Agree. I have as much influence over any of those goons as anyone in Scotland does. No-one speaks for me; I live in a safe tory seat and with the proposed gerrymandering it'll become totally unassailable.

I don't blame the Scots for wanting to leave (as we're now ruled by fuckwits and liars), but it still saddens me so much to see the ordinary working folk of the UK being divided by the drift to the right we are currently enduring. It spells the end of our collective bargaining power that, should we ever become a cohesive people again would be the only thing that will save us from the flag wavers, demagogues and populists that are becoming free to stamp on all of our rights.

I always great that the future would be one of coming together for the common good, but it appears all everyone wants to do is withdraw to their own patch of turf.


"I suspect Stu that you don't really know the meaning of "multiculturalism""

I suspect I certainly do; I live in a multicultural society and am all the better for it. You've been left behind old fella!

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 07:26 AM

It's nothing but crap.

Chinese people love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 06:53 AM

"It's quite interesting how the Scot nats distance themselves from the Brit nats. Scottish nationalism has (at least in the mind of it's supporters) elevated itself to a level of political sophistication and is possessed of a far more noble spirit of civic inclusivity than could ever be south of the border."

Sorry got to comment on that too. When I said British nationalism I was not condemning it - merely pointing out that it is another form of nationalism. They've just tied their idea of the nation to that represented by the union flag whereas Scots Nats have tied it to their idea of the nation to that represented by the Saltire. Some view themselves as Scottish who just happen to currently be within a wider union whilst others see themselves as Brits who just happen to be Scottish. Some see their nationality as Scottish some as British. Some see it as equally both. Neither is superior to the other and neither is bad.

If someone is asking me now though is the type if nationalism displayed by the bulk of the Yes movement and the Scottish gvt the same negative nationalism as displayed by the likes of the BNP or Siol nan Gaidheal then of course I would say no. As already shown by the inclusive welcoming speech already displayed further up the thread. They are clearly not the same and all I am saying is that you can't tar all nationalism with the same brush. The simple fact is that the rhetoric coming from the current Scottish gvt is far more inclusive and welcoming than the rhetoric that comes out of the BNP etc - or even in fact out of the Leave campaign or May's current gvt! That is a fact. No-one suggested that the English in general are incapable of being inclusive and welcoming!

As for the British Empire thing Stu I am sorry but I just don't get that point. The issues affecting us (whether we are Scottish or British nats) are about the here and now and what is best for the country in the future - not about the British empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:30 PM

BREXIT VIOLENCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:28 PM

"It is a failed experiment from the sixties,"
There you go with your hatred Ake
It did not "fail", in fact Britain benefited enormously from multiculturalism - children especially, who seem to have shaken off the blinkered Xenophobia our generation inherited from the Empire.
People like yo have made the lives of people who now form a large part of the population who have now become British, miserable and dangerous - so much so that it has become necessary to introduce laws to put a curb on your hate incitement.
Of course it has "failed" for people like you
Every can of petrol poured through an immigrant's letterbox has been encouraged by someone like you - many came here to escape persecution, only to be greeted by people like you..
More links for you to ignore
ECONOMIC
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:43 PM

Nothing like food to unite cultures. I ring my old mum every night and she always wants to know what we've had for tea. We probably have English just a couple of nights a week. Eggs, chips and beans or a roast. We'll have Italian three nights (tricolore salad with garlic bread tonight) and something like Spanish or Mexican or Greek the other nights. A curry once in a while. We LOVE it! She gets distressed that an Englishman can be such a traitor, but she has recently expressed a vague interest in trying an avocado...

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 05:47 PM

At this point I step in with a link to a delightful feel good video..
that explores the positive overlap where identity draws on the best of patriotism and nationalism..

..yes punkfolkrocker did use the decidedly unpunkrock word 'delightful'...

The Welsh Italians

"Episode 1 of 2

Merthyr-born Michela Chiappa explores the modern Welsh Italian community, visiting the cafes and fish and chip shops that still serve up a feast.
She discovers that whilst some traditions are the same, others have really changed. Michela finds that it's food and family that unites the two cultures
- but when it comes to sport, do they support Wales or Italy?"

After watching it, my mrs feels envious and wishes she was welsh italian instead of just welsh...

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 05:32 PM

I'm not incredibly comfortable with the word "multicultural." It seems to imply cultures existing alongside each other in an atmosphere of tolerance. I'd much rather think of cultures feeding like mad off each other and revelling in the joy that comes from that. It's just a word, of course. What actually happens on the ground is what matters. But I don't think it's a helpful word in some regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:36 PM

I have just described multiculturalism at its best - Amongst the young and those free from preconceptions. It works fine for them. It can work for everyone. I have also described the evidence of my own eyes from Bradford on a Friday night. Or any night if it comes to that. And there are no 'no go' areas there or any of the other big cities I have visited. And there are too many of those to list here. The chances of someone I know or love getting murdered by a right wing Christian lunatic seem to be around as high as one getting murdered by a Jihadist. All the points I have just made are properly evidenced arguments against the sound bites fed to people by those who want to stir up hate. Would anyone care to back up their assertions with similar hard evidence?

But as Kevin says this is about nationalism, not religion so I shall not be drawn any further on that subject here. If anyone wants to start an anti-Islam thread feel free and I shall make the same points on there.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:36 PM

That 20% figure came from a Sun story distorting the results of a poll asking if people felt some sympathy with young people going off to fight in Syria.

The problem is, that didn't distinguish between those who might have taken "sympathy with" as meaning they agreed with those young people, and those who might have taken it to mean having some pity for them. And it didn't even distinguish between whether question referred just who might have gone to Syria to fight for Isis or also to those who have gone to fight against it.

Don't we all feel a degree of pity for young people who do things like that with their lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:06 PM

When some of you old farts are dead and gone then some of these problems will just go away.

My children live in an multicultural world, they enjoy the cultural exchange and foods they encounter on a daily basis. Multicultural doesn't mean "colorblind," it means they see and appreciate the differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 03:39 PM

"The young don't care about multiculturalism because they live it".

I suspect Stu that you don't really know the meaning of "multiculturalism", why the policy was instigated, or why it is not working anywhere in the UK.

It is a failed experiment from the sixties, which inhibits integration of different cultures into a homogeneous society. It was thought up by some brilliant "liberal" minds to attempt to address the malign effects of mass unregulated immigration.....without success!

Huge parts of our major cities have become no go ares

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 01:48 PM

I hope you poor deluded politically correct numbskulls who choose not to believe the evidence of your own eyes prove to be right and this old bigot wrong. Don't bank on it!

Even Trevor Phillips, who has been credited with inventing the term "islamophobia" has seen the pitfalls ahead, and he is not an old white bigot.

Wake up and smell the kaffir.

When someone you know or care for is murdered or worse mutilated in a jihadi attack (as supported by 20% of British Muslims), perhaps you will feel differently. Neither nationalism nor multiculturalism will help then.

I shall return to the music threads whence I came - albeit not on a flying donkey. Well done weasels.

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 12:34 PM

Well, Steve, hypocritical clowns like Mark Burns, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Richard Land, Paula White, Robert Jeffress, Ralph Reed & all the rest and their congregations supporting Trump ain't no Christians either, bruv. But there sure are a lot of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 12:28 PM

But I'm pretty sure that most of our Muslim fellow citizens would agree with it.

I'd see it as a matter for Muslims to work out for themselves how to reconcile some bits of the Quran with compassion and humanity, the same way as I'd say the same for Christians and Jews with regard to some bits of the Old Testament.   But in both cases most believers seem to have managed to do so perfectly well. What matters for all of us is what sort of people we are.

But one can of worms at a time please. This thread is about nations, not religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:25 AM

To hurriedly correct meself, the bystander who shouted at the attacker wasn't actually a Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:24 AM

Sadly Lanfrancs post is all too indicative of a large section of our society.

If asked they would claim they are not racist / bigoted / nationalist although they may admit to being boring old farts.

However there is an inherent racism, bigotry and nationalism in what is written.

Until such time as these "values" disappear for good we will always have tensions between different sections of society.

Those of us who are older have a responsibility to our children and grandchildren to ensure that these views are seen for what they are and that they are challenged whenever they are voiced.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:21 AM

One of the more telling things concerning religion and violence recently was the incident in Leytonstone station in which a "Muslim" attacked another passenger and a fellow Muslim shouted to him "You ain't no Muslim, bruv." Defending religion isn't one of my strong points, but most of the harm done in the name of religion in this world is not done by true followers of religious tenets. Those IS thugs who mass-murder civilians and turn young girls into their sex slaves ain't no Muslims either, bruv. Those slaughtering Crusaders weren't no Christians either, bruv.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:02 AM

I cannot believe for one minute that Islam 'shows no sign of improvement or reformation'. That is the type of statement that really does need to be proved before and after making it. How many Muslims were barbarous, slaughtering slavers then? How many are now? What is it as a percentage of the total? It is this glib type of sound byte that gets those who know no better riled enough to harm someone. It belongs on the front page of the gutter press, not in any intelligent discussion.

And in case anyone is interested I work in and live just outside Bradford, a city almost 25% Muslim. I have walked through on a Friday night many a time and felt far less threatened than in my home city of Manchester at the same time. Purely personal experience of course.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:42 AM

Before you call me a stupid bigoted old white man,

I would never do that - it would be way too much of an understatement, considering the absolute filth contained in 08 Nov 16 - 09:59 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:33 AM

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:02 AM

And Christianity for even longer. Still, at least you're an atheist now, thank God.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 09:59 AM

Just a little background. When I finally lost patience with the Church of England discarding its traditions and the beauty of Cranmer and the King James Bible in favour of the banal and politically correct, I considered converting to Islam. Inspired by the example of Richard and Linda Thompson and encouraged by a good Muslim friend I have known for many years, I started to read the Qu'ran and Hadiths. I was appalled. If ever there was a religion obviously created by man, it was this. I next read a biography of Muhammed. This self-appointed "prophet" was evidently a murderer, a megalomaniac, a misogynist and a paedophile (oh, and an anti-semite to boot). If the Qu'ran was dictated by God, then so was Mein Kampf.
I was assured that no Muslim took the scriptures literally, but I wasn't convinced, so I reverted to agnosticism. 9/11 made me turn the corner to atheism and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind.

Before you call me a stupid bigoted old white man, do a bit of research (or just open your eyes). If you really want to have your illusions shattered, walk through Whitechapel or Manningham on a Friday night.

Islam has a 1400 year history of barbarism, slavery and slaughter and shows no sign of improvement or reformation. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 09:19 AM

"So much for using age"

How old was he when he wrote it?

The link between age and voting preference in the referendum is proven (check there YouGov site) and so although you could argue correlation does not imply causation, the most parsimonious argument for those figures is more old people wanted to leave the EU than young people.

I was raised in 1970's Britain where racism was the norm and the sort of attitudes expressed above were part of daily life. My own family came from Southall and their world changed beyond all recognition during their lifetimes, something they too struggled to understand. However, times do change and thankfully the 1970's attitudes only linger in those whom seem unable to grasp their old world of white privilege is gone and we live in a rich, diverse multicultural world. Do you feel your culture under threat? Then work to keep it alive locally, not by blaming people from other cultures for wanting to live here.

Look on the bright side. The old white men have had given the younger folk with their upstart ideas about diversity, equality and free movement a right good kicking, and made your point in a way that they'll remember long after you've ceased worrying about it. You really showed them what it's all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:59 AM

I rather doubt if Lanfranc has ever met any Muslims who aren't pretty peaceful people. I never have.

I haven't met many English people who are BNP supporters either, even though I know they exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM

"I preferred it when the Muslims I knew were peaceful people who ran restaurants and corner shops"
Th racist drive really is an indication of Brexit raising its ugly head.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM

I note that you quote that old white man Bob Dylan there Stu. So much for using age, or shade of skin as handy put downs.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:13 AM

I think my ancestors arrived on these shores more recently than yours Stu but please correct me if I am wrong. My Father was Polish. I have experienced prejudice first hand and yet I still grew up in the full knowledge that the blacks were taking over and Pakistanis eat Kit-e-Kat. Not from my Father I hasten to add. The only comment I ever heard him make that could be construed as either racist or sexist was, on catching a bit of "Top of the Pops" I was watching, commenting that Madelaine Bell's lips were eminently kissable :-)

But let us not get into quarrels about who is better qualified! Suffice to say that there are those who had attitudes foisted on them and try to get out of them and those who find difficulty in doing so. My little example of children playing may help some and may not. You can lead a horse to water...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:00 AM

"A bit harsh I think, Stu, but you do make a valid point about the young."

Perhaps, but all sorts of people have been coming to this country for thousands of years (including my own ancestors) and they are a vital part of our rich and diverse heritage.

Then there's this:

" I preferred it when the Muslims I knew were peaceful people who ran restaurants and corner shops"

Those golden days when brown people knew their place and didn't get all uppity and shouty, expressing their culture and religion? Influencing the mainstream? This is NOT a good statement however you read it. Worse for the old white men is the fact they've been left behind and hopefully Brexit will be their last bitter hurrah before the country takes a step back to being progressive, equal and inclusive just as 48% of us like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:42 AM

Though I totally disagree on every level with the divisive, naive and simplistic sentiments expressed in Dylan's song. 👿

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:37 AM

I like it when Stu is harsh. I've had it between the eyes from him more than once and I don't mind. Alan has now had good cop, bad cop. That'll do.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:31 AM

A bit harsh I think, Stu, but you do make a valid point about the young.

I am one of those poor old white men you mention and I was brought up with the very things you mention. We are not all hankering for 'the good old days'. In fact, many of us actively try to educate others on forums such as this, in other social media and in real life about how ludicrous it is to judge people on their race, colour or creed.

It is very difficult for someone who was brought up in the 50s and 60s to remove this attitude altogether but, whenever any of the old prejudices arise, I have a little exercise I am happy to share and that is where your point about the young comes in.

I am lucky enough to live near a wonderful public park and pass through it many times a week. Whenever I go through there are children playing. Those children are all colours, creeds and nationalities but do they care? Of course not. It is so uplifting to see their complete lack of inhibition in this area that I think it should be compulsory viewing for all.

Of course if any of them dares to offend the rest in some other way, heaven help them :-) But whatever it was is usually forgotten by the time the next ball is thrown.

Whenever someone different to me does something I dislike I try to visualise those children and remember that it is the person that matters, not their background.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:25 AM

You've been answered comprehensively and well, Alan (apart from the inevitable comic interlude from something beginning with a, of course). Go and reflect.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 05:55 AM

Unfortunately mass populations have short memories and history repeats itself...

We seem to be on an approximately 80 - 90 year cycle at the moment... 😩

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:46 AM

"I can'tell help but feel that the country that has been my home for most of my life has slipped away from me. I have watched London go from bowlers to burkas in my working lifetime."

Another poor old white man befuddled and confused by the world changing around him. This post is replete with privilege and the sort of low-level xenophobia seen in old with Brits since as long as I can remember. Ah for the good old days! To suggest this post is insightful is evidence enough that the old white folk of the UK neither understand the society they live in or have any degree of concern for the future and the young.


The young don't care about multiculturalism because they live it; to them the concept isn't alien or threatening but part of their everyday life. Virtually all the young folk I know don't even think about it any more, it's just the older generation who thinks it matters. This is why Brexit is so bad; old farts hankering for the 1970's world of Jim Davidson, Bernard Manning and the Black and White Minstrels will not have to pay for their short-termist, nationalistic and divisive voting decision. That'll be for the young folk you've set back four decades.

"Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly aging
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
Cause the times they are a-changing"

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:24 AM

Those peaceful people are still there, Alan, and in the majority. Just because the gutter press tell us different does not mean that the fears you hold for your children and grandchildren are founded. In fact, my fear is much more a world controlled by the likes of Rupert Murdoch in which hate and prejudice against a race, religion or nation is used to divert people from where the real problems lie.

I don't think you are any of the things that you mention but you have fallen for the lies being told. Don't feel bad about it - You are not alone!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:07 AM

Lanfranc....A fine thoughtful post Alan, though I'm sure you will find it hard going here......weasels abound! :0)

You are neither bigoted or boring, just insightful.....which is even worse in weasel land.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 10:12 PM

my children and grandchildren being increasingly subject to the barbarian seventh century influence of sharia

You're kidding, right? This is just meant as a joke in poor taste, right?

If not, recommmend you emigrate quickly and vote for Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 09:11 PM

Proofreader required. Must be able to work from home (mine), and I'm absolutely determined to break the glass ceiling...

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 09:05 PM

The England you knew is still there. It's evolved, that's all. Those brown faces you see belong to your fellow human beings, not a bunch of aliens from Zod. Get out the there, see what they sell in their shops and in in their their stalls and buy some of it. Tbe stallholder or shopkeeper would love to indulge in small talk about tbe rotten weather, just like everybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 08:52 PM

Well I'll just chuck in my two and fourpence here in defence of a certain sentiment behind, er, nationalism (or is it...)

We live in a crowded world of billions in which it's increasingly difficult to assert your identity, whether that means you personally, your family, your town, your county or your country. McDonalds and CocaCola and HSBC infiltrate every country and make everywhere look the same. I was in in Puglia in southern Italy in June, the poorest part of Italy with the possible exception of Sicily (which I also love to bits) and the received wisdom there is that anyone visiting that beautiful and (still, for now) distinctive part of the world now is lucky, because within ten years it'll turn into the same as everywhere else. You can assert your identity by having an afro, a tattoo, wearing rings in your nose or by killing twenty people in a school. You can join or form a club or a pressure group or join a political party. Anything to make you distinct. Both good and bad things can come out of people's struggle for identity and distinctiveness, but struggle it is. I've mentioned John Seymour, that guru of self-sufficiency, before. He was also a bit political, often in a right-wing way that I sometimes found indigestible, but one thing he railed against was gigantism. Massive, multinational corporations and huge states that have lost all sight of the interests of individuals and their human need for individuality. Behemoths such as Russia, China, India and the EU (and a good number even smaller ones than those). Human beings in general don't want to be anonymous ciphers in the furtherance of some state that claims that its interests trump those of the individual. You're very likely to get little regions that have long cherished their distinct character rearing up their heads and forming either official or unofficial protest groups, or showing their qualities by promoting their their distinct culture. Every big country has these groups. Spain placates its very distinctive regions by allowing them considerable autonomy. Good thing too, though even that doesn't satisfy the Basques and the Catalans. History always adds a twist to the tale, and so it should. The Welsh and Scots and Irish are great at promoting their distinctiveness without dissing anyone else's. John Seymour said he wanted to see the world broken up into far more small countries, no behemoths. Even East Anglia if it wanted to. Even Wales could shut pubs on Sundays if it wanted to (not something he was happy with, though he was more than happy for them to make that stupid move if they wanted to). If we don't allow people in their communities a considerable degree of self-expression and self-determination, then we'll inevitably generate the kind of negative nationalism that some people here complain about. Whose fault would that be?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 08:32 PM

As a Yorkshireman with Scottish, Irish and Jewish ancestry and one French and one Irish son-in-law, I was feeling happily European until I started to suspect that the Common Market we had joined in the 70s thinking it would be a European Commonwealth was turning into something horribly like a 4th Reich. Nonetheless I voted to remain in the EU.

I can'tell help but feel that the country that has been my home for most of my life has slipped away from me. I have watched London go from bowlers to burkas in my working lifetime. Although I have enjoyed many a curry in Brick Lane, I preferred it when the Muslims I knew were peaceful people who ran restaurants and corner shops or were work colleagues and friends whose religion was incidental and the weasel word "islamophobia" hadn't been invented.

The England I knew for most of my life has gone, so whither nationalism? I am far from convinced that "multiculturalism" is an improvement and dread the prospect of my children and grandchildren being increasingly subject to the barbarian seventh century influence of sharia imposed by political correctness, demographic and immigrant pressures.

Does this make me a closet nationalist, a racist and a bigot, or just a boring old fart?

Discuss

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 01:09 PM

Regionalism perhaps is a more acceptable form of nationalism...

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 11:18 PM

errrmmm.. I lived in Leeds and Bradford 1978 to 1981...

Moved back home with a bit of a northern accent... 🙄

Directly relating this to the thread topic, that's where i first ever encountered NF thugs in the streets..

In Leeds, there was a cheaply produced regular [monthly or weekly - can't remember] lefty alternative magazine.
Part whats on guide, part didactic political issue pamphlet...

That was a huge influence on my thinking and personal development back in my early 20s...

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:56 PM

"I'm about 10 years younger than you lot... punk rock teen of the 70s.."

So you're another old fart, then? Still, at least there's no hint of Yorkshire about you... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:45 PM

I taught in the West Country for eleven years, in Holsworthy. Totally different issue. The girls all wanted to ride horses and the lads all wanted to be janners just like their dads, driving tractors and telling the rest of us that we "didn't understand the the ways of the country." Twats! On a hiding to nothing trying to tell the buggers how important Einstein was, etc. But I loved it, and still do!

It's years later now, but recently I saw one of them girls from behind, nicely grown up by now, riding a horse and wearing a hi-viz vest with "does my bum look big on this?" emblazoned on the back. Jaysus, what is it about the rear view of a good bum bouncing on top of a horse....😜

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 04:52 PM

Steve - Hah... you should have tried in the west country.. we gave our newly qualified Physics teacher a break down...

Punkfolkrocker failed Physics and Chemistry O Levels..

[Leaning guitar, and girls were too big a distraction in summer 1975.]

But did get a grade B in Biology...🐦 🐝 🐦 🐝

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 03:59 PM

Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception. George Orwell Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein