BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 04:21 AM

Very well explained, Howard. Thank you.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 04:14 AM

Brexit supporters should be equally concerned to establish at an early stage that Article 50 is exercised in a lawful way. If it is not, it may be of no effect, and raises the possibility of further legal challenges further down the process. Article 50 itself refers to the decision to withdraw being made in accordance with a country's constitution, which suggests that if it is not done properly and lawfully then it is not a valid decision and Article 50 cannot effectively be exercised.

The referendum itself is not sufficient. It is well-established that referenda are not binding, because of the sovereignty of Parliament. Parliament could have made the EU referendum binding when it passed the Act authorising it, but did not. Whether or not the referendum should be binding was not an issue before the High Court, the Government acknowledged it was not, and this will not be an issue for the Supreme Court.

However, the Government is politically committed to accepting the result, because of statements made both before and after the referendum. The legal question now is whether it can do so using prerogative powers. We should all, regardless of political persuasion or our views on any particular issue, be very waryof extending the powers of any government to do whatever it wishes without any oversight.

Legal clarity is essential. If that means getting Parliamentary approval then that is a hoop which must be jumped through. I understand Brexiteers' concerns about this, but if Parliament were to reject Brexit in the face of the referendum there would be an immediate political and constitutional crisis, and very possibly civil unrest. I think it is more likely that Parliament would (perhaps reluctantly) support Brexit, and concentrate on ensuring that we leave in a way which is in the best interests of the country (if we can ever agree what these are)..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 02:50 AM

We still await "examples of unequivocal assertions made here that the government has no case". I am very concerned that by making such assertions it is implied that a number of people, who have done no such thing, have been unjustly accused. If there is a case for anyone to answer please make the allegations more specific so we know who is supposed to be guilty of such unequivocal assertions.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 02:09 AM

I would not dismiss anyone's views out of hand, though mine have been by many and I have been subjected to ridicule and abuse just for stating facts."

Complete bollocks. You don't state 'facts', you state your own, highly-spun, interpretation of 'facts'. You have been presented with the referendum legislation - not someone's opinion of the legislation, but the actual legislation from the goverment's website - and the explanatory note from the legislation, which clearly states that the referendum is advisory only, yet you continue to deny that it was advisory, even to the point where you tried to claim that the PM's 'promise' to enact the result of the referendum somehow over-ruled the legislation itself.

When you speak poppycock, it should come as no surprise that you get called out on it. When you continue with the poppycock, it's hardly surprising that people begin to doubt your intelligence, your sanity, or both.

You and BWM call me "thick cunt" for offering it.

Nowhere in n this thread, or any other for that matter, have I called you "thick cunt". More evidence of your inability to read and comprehend what is written. My comment referred to Musket's habit of calling you by that term, which I had publicly and privately remonstrated with him for using, but I said that I was beginning to understand how your behaviour had provoked him into calling by that epithet.

So, your claim is made either because of your lack of comprehension skills, or it's a barefaced lie.

Either way, I refuse to be baited and provoked by a notorious troll, so this will be my final communication with you. Feel free to continue with your ludicrous rants. You'll be talking to the hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:10 PM

Steve, it is a fact that there was no anti-EU party until UKIP.
Ukip was a one issue party. Anti-EU.
With only one UKIP MP, Parliament could only vote Remain.
Everyone knows that.
The referendum may have changed that as MPs may fear to go against their electors.

giving us the opinion of a newspaper is all very well but we live by the rule of law in this country.

The Independent is a respectable and respected publication.
It is not known for editorial ignorance or being partisan.
On the day of the refendum it said, "But for now, both sides are, officially at least, working on the assumption that the British people's decision on 23 June will indeed be final."

I quoted to show that it is a reasonable and widely held view.
You and BWM call me "thick cunt" for offering it.
Why so confrontational and nasty?
Why can you not exchange views without obscenity, insult and aggression?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 11:58 AM

I'm sorry, Keith, but that is a deliberate misreading of what I said. Everybody DIDN'T know what a parliamentary vote would have yielded because there had never been any prospect before the referendum of either a debate or vote on triggering Article 50. Utterly and pointlessly hypothetical. Talking past people is your modus operandi, but do not tell me while you're doing it to "speak for myself" when I'm telling you the plain facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 11:09 AM

all who have argued against your case

Ah, but then, the Professor HAS no case, as has been repeatedly demonstrated.

Demonstrating it yet again surely will not convince him he's spouting rubbish, will it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 11:04 AM

Alternatively we could stop quibbling about semantics and who said what but that would need the co-operation of all parties concerned. Something less likely than reaching a major decision in the EU parliament...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 11:01 AM

I could soon find examples of unequivocal assertions made here that the government has no case.

In which case, please do so. It is unfair to imply that all who have argued against your case should be subject to the sarcastic comments made at the end of the 23 Nov 16 - 10:08 AM and 23 Nov 16 - 10:50 AM posts. I think it unlikely that you will find that anyone has stated that their opinions are unequivocal. If there are any please call them out so we can decide if there are 'many here' after all.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:57 AM

Everyone knew no such thing, because before the referendum there was no prospect on the horizon whatsoever of a parliamentary vote on triggering Article 50, clown. Never in the offing.

Speak for yourself Steve.
All the established parties are pro EU membership, and always have been.
That is why Farage felt the need for a new one.

That new party won the last EU election and with their promise of a referendum posed a real risk to the big 3 in 2015.
Suddenly they all supported a referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:50 AM

I would not dismiss anyone's views out of hand, though mine have been by many and I have been subjected to ridicule and abuse just for stating facts.

I could soon find examples of unequivocal assertions made here that the government has no case.
The Attorney General Jeremy Wright QC MP says they have.
I am not qualified to judge, unlike many here apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM

"Everyone knew that Parliament would overwhelmingly oppose its being triggered."

Everyone knew no such thing, because before the referendum there was no prospect on the horizon whatsoever of a parliamentary vote on triggering Article 50, clown. Never in the offing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:44 AM

Yes Keith, and Jeremy Wright, Tory MP and dodgy expenses claims dealer, didn't do very well in putting the government's case to the High Court, did he? Better luck next time, Jezza! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:29 AM

I have not pre-empted anyone or anything. I have given the facts as we know them. I have repeated them multiple times before so there is little point in doing so again. As far as I remember no one else has pre-empted anything and all have said we will have to await the outcome of the appeal. Are there any examples of such pre-emptive behavior that I have missed?

I have also clearly stated that while I am no expert in constitutional law it is quite apparent that the government lied and is now desperately trying to save face. That is not a fact, simply my opinion but, on the balance of probabilities, I don't believe anyone can dismiss that view out of hand.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:23 AM

Say good night, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:17 AM

The Attorney General Jeremy Wright QC MP said: "The country voted to leave the European Union, in a referendum approved by Act of Parliament. There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to re-join it through the back door, and no second referendum. We do not believe this case has legal merit. The result should be respected and the Government intends to do just that."

The Attorney will appear at the hearings in the High Court on 13 and 17th October.

Background

The detailed grounds filed with the court by the Secretary of State assert: "The Government intends to give effect to the outcome of the referendum by bringing about the exit of the UK from the EU. That is a proper constitutional and lawful step to take in light of the referendum result."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/attorney-general-to-defend-brexit-legal-challenge

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:08 AM

Parliament was not intended to have the final decision on article 50.
That was the whole point of the referendum.
Everyone knew that Parliament would overwhelmingly oppose its being triggered.

The decision to leave was to be taken or rejected by the people and not Parliament.
All the parties and all politicians and both campaign groups accepted that.
The legal challenge on May's right to act on the decision was brought by private individuals.

The government lawyers say they have a strong case and are confident of winning.
It will be decided on fine points of obscure constitutional law.
It has not been decided yet.

I made a prediction not based on law.
I am in awe of all you so versed in constitutional law that you can pre-empt the judges whose decision it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:05 AM

Deprave

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:04 AM

Cheers, John. I'm just waiting now to be told now that I'm a whingeing, sore-loser remoaner.

What we need a damn sight more of in this country is decent political education. When we activists talked about this in the 70s and 80s we were shot down as militant bloody trots trying to start a revolution. But politics is what runs us, an integral part of everyone's lives. Like religion, it can't be dealt with without bringing the partisan nature of it into the frame. If a trade unionist addresses senior pupils in a school he's hardly going to deprive and corrupt 'em. Similarly with a Tory or Labour or Scots Nat speaker. We can't afford to sideline politics to the safe confines of carefully-scripted history and geography syllabuses. But shock horror at the very thought, eh? The thing is, keeping people ignorant about politics (and just listen to some of the dismal vox pop stuff you have to endure on the Beeb news) just leaves them wide open to manipulation by cynical politicians like Farage. How does that fit with the virtuous concept we call democracy? Given a well-educated public, that bloke wouldn't get a single bloody vote. Well I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 09:27 AM

"I like the idea of democracy. You have to have someone everyone distrusts," said Brutha. "That way, everyone's happy."

― Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 07:54 AM

Absolutely spot-on in all respects, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 07:17 AM

If the Referendum showed anything at all DtG it showed how ill-informed and clueless our elected representatives were on both sides of the argument.

...our "professional politicians" of all shades, who have f****d up right royally over the last couple of decades...

Well you say all this but you persist in telling us that we must respect the democratic will of the people wot have spoken, etc. So you don't mind that the referendum was a charade predicated on a bunch of lies from one side and wholesale scaremongering from the other, all appealing to the lowest instincts of the people, with good information scarcely getting a look-in. When you're ready, do tell us what all this has to do with real democracy and how it legitimises the referendum.

In my view Article 50 should not be triggered until the people of this country are presented honestly with the terms of our leaving. They should be asked the question "In light of the negotiated terms for brexit, should the government still go ahead and start the process of leaving the EU, or should we remain a member of the EU?"

(And please don't give me the old guff about "not showing our hand." The EU knows full well already what our hand is. The only reason May doesn't want to show her hand is that she doesn't want the people of this country to see the embarrassing fudges and compromises she's going to have to make. We saw the EU getting very hawkish yesterday during the visit of the farcical buffoon David Davis. Quite right too. Pour encourager les autres).

That would be far closer to my idea of democracy. I don't believe in referendums, but we are where we are to coin a cliche, and I also don't believe that this issue has been addressed according to best practice within our democracy, and a single issue general election (how's that for an oxymoron...) would be even worse. If there's anything especially undemocratic about asking people if they want to change their minds in the light of vital new information, well I'm waiting for you to tell me what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 04:59 AM

I agree, but sadly it seems to be partly because we have become a nation of 'reality show' politics. The major issues are as dictated by the media barons and they seem to love the mavericks and popular one trick wonders of the political world. The referendum was a single issue but a general election should never be fought on that basis. I know, given the earlier scenario, that is what would happen but I cannot help be saddened by the fact that people have become so disenchanted with politics that they are no longer voting for what is best, but what is the lesser of the evils. Even worse, when all major parties are viewed in those terms, they vote for an alternative, no matter how harmful that may be in the long term.

I believe it is what has happened in the US and it is why Farage is so popular here. I know we will never agree on Corbyn but I genuinely hope that, unlike Sanders in the US, he will provide a real viable alternative to the current scourge of neolibralism. But maybe we are now getting too far from Brexit :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 03:37 AM

If the Referendum showed anything at all DtG it showed how ill-informed and clueless our elected representatives were on both sides of the argument.

As to "party loyalty", I believe that our "professional politicians" of all shades, who have f****d up right royally over the last couple of decades can no longer take the electorate for granted.

Like it or not the British electorate in the EU Referendum made a choice, if that is not respected by Parliament then the next General Election in the UK will absolutely astound the political establishment of this country and shake it to its very foundations, and who knows maybe they will deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 02:50 AM

I would agree with Teribus' analysis but for a couple of things. The massacre would not be limited to the Labour party. Any standing member that does not offer that cast iron promise will suffer. I am also not so sure about the constituency voting. As the referendum was not on constituency lines that is a tough one to be so sure about. Yes, chances are the voting would be along the same lines but that does not take into account party and member loyalty.

One good thing that will come out of it if the appeal goes against the government. The MPs will actually be forced to do what they are paid for. The referendum, as far as I am concerned, was a huge abdication of responsibility. We pay these people to make this type of decision and they wimped out of it. I hope the courts do tell them to do their job and stop whinging!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 02:17 AM

Unlikely DMcG but true. I say unlikely because our self-serving professional politicians know the threat that awaits them if they decide to ignore the Referendum result.

Here is how the tale could unfold:

Version 1:

Parliament debates the triggering of Article 50, the Conservatives enforce a three line whip and everybody stays on-side. Result the Conservatives win the vote and Brexit goes ahead having been debated in Parliament.

Version 2:

Parliament debates the triggering of article 50, the Conservatives enforce a three line whip but do not win the vote. Result Theresa May resigns and goes to the country. In the ensuing General Election there is only one issue - Brexit - the Labour Party under Corbyn will be massacred, the only people who will stand any chance of being returned will be those who make cast iron promises to trigger Article 50 will be returned. My reason for stating that? Take a look at the results of the EU Referendum in terms of voting districts who voted to Leave - it was roughly 67% for Leave versus 23% for Remain. Constituency voting, I believe would be along similar lines in an election brought about by Parliament sticking two fingers up to the wishes of the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 01:15 PM

Quite so, Jim. And even a three line whip does not guarantee how your members will vote vide 10 July 2012

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 01:06 PM

"Of course it is binding on the Government if the Prime Minister says so. "
Yeah - sure it is - or would be, if Britain was a dictatorship
Early days yet - fortunatelt 'Rule of Law' still prevails
Now if Maggie had hung on a bit longer....!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 12:11 PM

I've already told them that, several times, Steve.
Unfortunately, they seem not to have sufficient wick in their lamps to understand even as simple a concept as Parliamentary Sovereignty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 11:50 AM

The court case isn't about whether the government wants to be bound by the result. Constitutionally, they can say that if they want, like Trump and his Mexican wall, but it has no legal force. The government can say they're bound, then change their minds, foolish but not illegal. The court case is about whether May is entitled to exercise prerogative to trigger Article 50 (the implication of this being that British law would certainly have to be modified, which can only be done by parliament) or whether that should be subject to parliamentary approval. Hope this helps Keith to clear the fudge from his brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 11:16 AM

Of course it is binding on the Government if the Prime Minister says so. That does not prevent Parliament debating it, nor does it prevent the Government from enforcing a three line whip to ensure that the Government uses its majority in the House of Commons to get the result it wants, and in this particular case that means Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 10:28 AM

"And every other politician because they all agreed the referendum decision would be final."
Sighhhhhhhh!
Whether it is final or not - it still has to be passed by parliament and every politician is aware of this from the shite they give us as promises and then renege on
How often have they used the excuse of not being able to get it through Parliament for not coming up with what they promised.
It is basic parliamentary procedure.
Why on earth should anybody wish to spend time and effort to claim that politicians haven't lied - their trade is lying in what passes for 'democracy'?
Corbyn, as far as I know, has never been PM - one of the valid criticisms of him is his lack of experience.
If Parliament can't draw in inexperienced leaders and allow them to develop we may as well bow our necks to rising unemployment, increasing poverty, a continued widening off the haves and have nots gap and no industry to make Britain as self-sufficient as the Brexiters claim it needs to be.
The shambolic leadership we ahve at present are quite happy that things should continue as they are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 10:27 AM

True. I do not know for certain. But if Cameron, or any serving member of the house, was not aware that the referendum was advisory then they were fools. The possibility that they were unaware is just that, a possibility and, in my opinion, a slim one. The far more likely probability is that they all knew and chose to ignore that fact because they also 'knew' that the vote would be to remain and the promise to take us out would never have to be fulfilled. And yes, this is politicians from both sides of the house and from both camps of the referendum.

I believe that they knew and either lied or chose to hope for the best. It is a far more likely scenario than the one being put forward that they did not know the legislation that they themselves had drafted and were stupid enough to put it to the country anyway.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 10:15 AM

Cameron is already right. He knew the referendum was advisory as did all the other politicians.

How do you know this?
They all said it was binding as did both campaigns.

After the results some individuals challenged it in court, but it has yet to be decided!

The government lawyers say they have a strong case and are confident of winning.

If a Prime Minister is incapable of distinguishing truth from fiction on such a serious subject he should not have been appointed to office in the first place

Corbyn too then.
And every other politician because they all agreed the referendum decision would be final.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:51 AM

"If a statement is made in good faith in the belief it is true, it is a mistake not a lie."
If a Prime Minister is incapable of distinguishing truth from fiction on such a serious subject he should not have been appointed to office in the first place
Most of our politicians have long ceased considering truth to be part of their remit, the few who might do end up being accused of antisemitism by unscrupulous colleagues and people like yourself, who have little regard for truth.
The Government's stated appeal on this matter is, I believe, in the hope that they find members of the judiciary who have as little disregard for the law as they do.
Political disregard for the law was displayed brilliantly by the refusal to hold an open enquiry into Orgreave - and look how long it took to have honest enquiries into Hillsborough and Bloody Sunday
Feckin' ridiculous that we are governed by untried criminals.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:51 AM

That is correct, Dave. Over-interpreting what Corbyn said (which was full of caveats in any case) and giving us the opinion of a newspaper is all very well but we live by the rule of law in this country. Nothing about the setting up or execution of this referendum seems to me, (or to the High Court) to trump the 2010 legislation. Let's hope the Supreme Court doesn't bow to the rest of the establishment like Lord Denning did over the Birmingham Six. You can bet your life the screws are on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:31 AM

Cameron is already right. He knew the referendum was advisory as did all the other politicians. What he was wrong about was judging the peoples feelings and making promises he could not keep within the framework of current constitutional procedure. What the court case is about is trying to get that constitutional procedure changed. Those are facts.

I do not believe that they should be allowed to change the law just to suit justify that promise and I would have said that regardless of the outcome. The government are now desperately trying to find a way out of the mess they have got themselves in. Those are my opinions.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:27 AM

George Costanza agrees:

Art imitates life

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:23 AM

Jim and BWM
"It was not a lie if it was believed to be true."
You mean a lie ceases to be a lie if it succeeds in fooling people?

If a statement is made in good faith in the belief it is true, it is a mistake not a lie.

The law has yet to decide if it was a mistake or the actual truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM

Dave,
Cameron knew very well that the referendum was advisory. If he did not he would surely be the most ill informed prime minister in history, which I do not believe.

The legal case on whether it was advice or a decision is not yet finished, so Cameron might yet prove to be right.

And it was not just Cameron.

Corbyn,
"The referendum has taken place, a decision has been made, I think we have got to respect that decision and work out our relationship with Europe in the future."
("Decision" not "advice.")

The Independent 23 June.
"For now, both sides are, officially at least, working on the assumption that the British people's decision on 23 June will indeed be final."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/what-is-brexit-why-is-there-an-eu-referendum-a7042791.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:07 AM

BWM
Keith, I once had a row with Musket on a thread, and berated him for calling you 'Thick Cunt'.
I'm starting to wonder why I was so stupid as to defend you.

I must have said something really silly and wrong then.

Please identify what it is, or take back the insult and the obscenity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 07:45 AM

Yes, Jim, that was the bit that convinced me that Musket was, conceivably, correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 05:13 AM

"It was not a lie if it was believed to be true."
You mean a lie ceases to be a lie if it succeeds in fooling people?
Extraordinary what you learn if you live long enough!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 05:07 AM

THIS sums up the Brexit buffoons' arguments spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:24 PM

Cameron knew very well that the referendum was advisory. If he did not he would surely be the most ill informed prime minister in history, which I do not believe. It was, therefore, a lie told at the highest level and the establishment were indeed complicit. Non of them predicted the outcome of the referendum correctly. What they did was take a gamble on people voting to remain and, yes, the question would not have arisen if that happened because no one would have had to do anything. They severely miscalculated and what we are now seeing is the result of this major blunder. If they had proved to be right, it would have shut people like Farage and his cronies down and they would have now been saying that the referendum was only advisory so the government should leave the EU anyway.

In my opinion.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:20 PM

Keith, I once had a row with Musket on a thread, and berated him for calling you 'Thick Cunt'.

I'm starting to wonder why I was so stupid as to defend you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:00 PM

Nice observation from Micheal Martin - not someone I would take much notice of (apart from his miraculous achievement ing making our pubs smoker-free zones
Jim Carroll

MARTIN CRITICISES BREXIT BRAND OF NATIONALISM
FF Leader calls for greater urgency to tackle Britain's departure from EU
We will not join them in their right-wing ideology
TIM O'BRIEN

Micheál Martin has claimed Ireland will not fall into the trap of "backward-looking nationalism" as the British did over Brexit.
Vowing the Irish "are not going to join the English in their desire to repeal the 20th century", the Fianna Fáil leader used the occasion of the commemoration of former IRA man and later government minister Seán Moylan yesterday to claim "a hard Brexit is already under way".
Mr Martin said Britain had become "suspicious of outsiders and committed to the historically false idea that you don't need strong international bodies to secure lasting cooperation and prosperity between nations".
"We will not join them in their right-wing ideology of trade rules with no social dimension and no enforceable laws," he said.
But he also acknowledged Brexit could be tough on Irish industries which rely on Britain as a key export market.
He called for the EU to allow Ireland to suspend rules on State aid to support industries which take a hit as a result of Brexit.
"In the five months since the UK's Brexit vote the only things which are clear are that their policy is a shambles and that it is already causing real damage on this island. Brexit is not something which is happening in two [years' time], it is happening now."
Mr Martin said Ireland desperately needed a new urgency and ambition in Government to deal with the fallout of Brexit and other rising threats internationally.
"The unprecedented decline in sterling may soon be followed by new barriers to trade," he said. "We can't stand by and;let this slow-motion crash happen."
Mr Martin said the Irish nationalism evident in the commemorations held this year was "open and generous".
"[The events] respected diversity and promoted the idea of reconciliation," he said.
He said, the people of Ireland had shown "how to look to the past in order to help understand who we are and to draw inspiration for our future".
"This has been a powerful testimony to the fact that patriotism can be the mark of an inclusive, modern republic.
"At this grave, dark moment in world affairs we should never stop reminding ourselves of the republican spirit which has defined our modern history and should define how we face the future."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 02:38 PM

Advice that must be enforced is no longer just advice.

You were lied to by Cameron,

It was not a lie if it was believed to be true.
And, it was not just Cameron. The entire ruling establishment including all the political parties were complicit.
Despite what you say, no-one doubted or challenged it until the result, and then it was private individuals not politicians who made the challenge.

Parliament was not to be consulted.
That is what the legal case is about, and despite your assertions, it has yet to be settled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 02:03 PM

Thanks, Dick! I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 01:02 PM

Backwoodsman, I think you are spot on.