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ADD: (Winter) Winder wie ist nun dein Kraft

GUEST,Andy C 06 Feb 17 - 04:30 AM
michaelr 06 Feb 17 - 03:16 PM
leeneia 06 Feb 17 - 03:19 PM
Joe Offer 06 Feb 17 - 05:54 PM
keberoxu 06 Feb 17 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 06 Feb 17 - 10:11 PM
GUEST,Andy C 07 Feb 17 - 06:03 AM
Jack Campin 07 Feb 17 - 09:08 AM
leeneia 07 Feb 17 - 10:33 AM
Jack Campin 07 Feb 17 - 10:41 AM
leeneia 07 Feb 17 - 10:41 AM
DaveRo 07 Feb 17 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Grishka 07 Feb 17 - 12:54 PM
GUEST 07 Feb 17 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Grishka 07 Feb 17 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 07 Feb 17 - 02:25 PM
Jack Campin 07 Feb 17 - 07:39 PM
michaelr 07 Feb 17 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Grishka 08 Feb 17 - 04:48 AM
leeneia 08 Feb 17 - 09:02 AM
GUEST 10 Feb 17 - 02:21 AM
Stower 17 May 18 - 02:50 PM
Stower 17 May 18 - 02:52 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST,Andy C
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 04:30 AM

Can anyone help with a translation of the medieval German song 'Winter wie ist nun dein kraft'. My schoolboy German can get the gist of it, but there are sill quite a few holes. I guess that Early German changed as much as early English.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 03:16 PM

If you post the text, I'll be happy to help with the translation.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: leeneia
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 03:19 PM

the lyrics can be seen at this rather dodgy site:

http://www.lyricsmania.com/winder_wie_ist_nun_dein_kraft_lyrics_des_teufels_lockv%C3%B6gel.html

Why does the URL say "not secure"? I've never seen that before.

I don't understand the lyrics either.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 05:54 PM

I got the lyrics from what looks to be a German version of the Website leeneia found. I'm guessing Leeneia is using Google Chrome. This month, Google started giving warnings on Websites (like Mudcat) that don't have certain security features. Apparently, this song was recorded by a group called "Des Teufels Lockvogel" (the devil's decoy bird)

WINDER WIE IST NUN DEIN KRAFT

Winder wie ist nun dein kraft
Worden gar unsinnighaft
Seyt der mayen seinen schaft
Auf der hat verstochen

Vor dem walden auf dem plan
Sicht man volkumlichen stan
Liechte plümlein wolgethan
Der han ich gesprochen

Gar besunder durch ein wunder
Solches kunder ich vernahm
Man und frauen ir sult schauen
In den auen ohne scham

Wie des liechten mayen schar
Stet beglait in purpur far
Junge maidt das nemet war
Bleibet unversprochen

Wie sie tanzen und auch swanzen
Mit ir glanzen swibelswanzen
Da die klinget so sie springet
Und auch singent vor zu tanzen

Claget nicht den winter kalt
Ir solt sein an freuden bald
Freut euch beide jungk und alt
Gein dem süeßen mayen

Torst ich vor der frauen mein
Ich wollt mit auch frölich sein
Nun zwingt mich ein andre pein
Daß ich nicht mag gerayen

Von des weise ich nu greise
Der mir leyse sleichet nach
Unverporgen alle morgen
In den sorgen ich vermach

Meiner frauen die ist her
Ich will daß sie mein emper
Zwar ich dien ir nimmer mer
Es get an ein zwayen


Mehr songtexte: http://www.songtextemania.com/winder_wie_ist_nun_dein_kraft_songtext_des_teufels_lockvogel.html

Alle Infos über Des Teufels+Lockvogel: http://www.musictory.de/musik/

Here's a recording:


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 09:54 PM

This period of music history is well outside any area of expertise to which I might presume.
Others, however, have studied it and published about it.
There appear to be lots of German-language publications.

Online I encountered one study by co-authors Ulrich Müller and Ingrid Bennewitz, "auf deutsch," dating from 2007. My search engine results pulled up their book, because this song is in it. Within the book's pages, they compare two different sources and print the variants side by side.

One of the medieval source poets is identified as
Neidhart von Reuenthal, a name I have never seen before.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 10:11 PM

If this YouTube link works, it will take you to an audio recording of a duo, actually singing the above song.

"Winther wie is nu dei kraft"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST,Andy C
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:03 AM

Thanks to everyone that answered. I have the Early German lyrics, I was wondering if anyone could help with a translation either into Modern German or English. I know that its a bit of a long shot but thanks anyway.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:08 AM

I have an old CD entirely of Neidhart's work (can't find a reference to it on the web). If it's one of his, it's quite likely it will have been included and there will be a translation on the sleeve notes; I'll look when I get home tonight.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:33 AM

Thanks for the info about Chrome, Joe. However, the "not secure" warning does not appear on Mudcat even now, as I'm typing this.

Jack, I look forward to your translation.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:41 AM

Lyrics sites have always been among the dodgiest on the web for spreading malware. I'd take Google at their word.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:41 AM

I've listened three times to the YouTube that Joe linked. There are serious differences between the lyrics printed here and what is being sung. The YouTube has far fewer verses.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: DaveRo
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:30 AM

Chrome's new warning mainly applies to insecure pages (http not https) that have a password field - that's one which shows asterisks when you type.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:54 PM

Folk groups will folk-process any lyrics, that's their job. Thus, the lyrics above are quite a bit off what Neidhart wrote (or may have written). Since the poem is featured in the well-known and well-researched "Codex Manesse", translations and commentary abound - in print. My quick Googling did not yield an authoritative result on the web, but more patience may be rewarded.

As you correctly assumed, Middle High German is almost as distant from modern German as Middle English is form modern English. Singers nowadays tend to compromise, and so do the lyrics above. OK for performing, but not for scholarly treatment.

For example, I suspect that "unsinnighaft" is quite nonsensical and thus a misunderstanding, but then I do not know the correct word, which may well make even less sense to modern ears.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 01:03 PM

I can't find the entire translation online for some reason;
but a singable English translation exists, and has been published with the music.
All I know is that it begins with the phrase
"Winter, gone is all your power."

Grishka, since you mentioned the example:

Ulrich Müller and Ingrid Bennewitz, with their two versions copied out from medieval sources, print the word
"unsighaft" rather than "unsinnighaft."

With my smattering of German, I am speculating that
"Sieg" is the modified word, "unsieg-haft."
So, Winter's power has become "gar unsieg-haft," quite ... un fight worthy?

The gist of the song, AndyC, seems to be that Spring is coming, and Winter is losing its grip.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 02:18 PM

Yes, Guest, "unsighaft" makes more sense: non-victorious.

My shameless (- totally uninformed, probably unsinnighaft -) guess about the gist is: "Now that spring has come, we should be shameless. My lady does not want me, so I may as well get me a second one".

For more accuracy, we had best rely on one of the many existing books about Manesse (cf. also Neidhart).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 02:25 PM

I'm surprised! Where is everybody!

Just some rough and random opinions:

Verse 1
Winter, how is now your strength
Become quite un-victorious,
since May took up your lance
and broke it in half over you!

I'm going to leave Verse 2 alone.

Verse 3, at least the final two lines, describes
how a man and a woman
may, erm, go sight-seeing
in the spring meadows
without shame. (fa la la la la la la laaaaaa....)

Verse 4
praises the hosts of May clothed in purple,
and suggest to the young maidens
that they remain "unspoken-for,"
in other words, don't be too hasty to limit yourself to one fellow.

Verse 6
"claget nicht den winter kalt"
says that no longer need we complain about winter's cold,
rather we should now, be we young or old,
rejoice in sweet Maytime.

and that's as far as I will venture.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:39 PM

I can't find the CD I thought I had. Maybe it was actually an LP, in which case it'll take some digging.

Here is the version in John Horton's "A Book of Early Music".

Winder wie is nu dein kraft
   Winter, now your end is near;
worden gar unsigehaft
   you are stricken dumb with fear
set der maye seinen schafft
   since bold May with his strong spear
auff die hat zustochen.
   surely has defeated you.

Vor den wälden auff der plan
   By the woods and all around
sucht man volkumlichen stan
   on the trees and on the ground
liechte plümblein wolgethan
   countless blossoms can be found;
der han ich geprochen
   joyfully I pluck them.

Gar besunder durch ein wunder solches kunder ich vernahm.
   In the spring is everything refurbishing for all to see.
Man und frauen ir sult schawen in den awen one scham
   Man and maid, be not afraid as through the glade you wander free.

Wie des lichten mayen schar
   When these flowers with colours gay
stet beclait in purpurfar
   stand in glorious array
Jungen maidt, das menet war,
   Girls, take warning while you may;
bleibet unversprochen
   let no man deceive you.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:44 PM

I found a different version from a band called Schelmisch here. This looks more like Mittelhochdeutsch to me than the text posted above.

I then consulted Gerhard Koebler's Mittelhochdeutsches Woerterbuch to look up the words. I make no claim to have got it right, but it makes some sense.

Winder wie ist nû dîn kraft                Winter, how is now your power
Worden gar unsigehaft                        Become quite non-victorious
Sît der meie sînen schaft                Since May its shaft
Hat ûf dir verstochen                        Has plunged into you
Vor den welden ûf dem plân                Before the forest on the field
Siht man wunneclîchen stân                One sees happily standing
Liehtiu bluemel wolgetan                Bright small flowers pleasant
Der hân ich gebrochen                        I have broken (plucked) one

Gar besunder durch ein wunder                Quite exceptionally by a miracle   
Solchez kunder ich vernam                Such news I heard
Man und vrouwen, ir sult schouwen        Men and women, you must see
In den ouwen âne scham                        In the meadows without shame
Wie des liehten meien schar                How the bright May's crowd
Stât bekleit in purper var                Stands clothed in purple color
Jungen meid des nemet war                Young maid ovserving this
Belîbet unversprochen                        Remains unpromised (not spoken for)

Klaget niht den winter kalt                Mourn not the winter cold        
Ir sult sîn an vröuden balt                You shall be joyous soon
Vröut iuch, beide junc und alt                Rejoice, both young and old
Gein dem süezen meien                        For the sweet May
Torstè ich vor der vrouwen mîn                I dared before my woman
Mit iu wollt ich vrolich sîn                With her I would be joyful
Nû twinget mich ein ander Pîn                Now another pain forces me
Daz ich nîht mac greien                        That I don't like to dance

In der wîse ich nû grise                In this way I now grow old
Also lîse sliche ich nâch                And so quietly I creep after
Unverborgen alle morgen                        Obviously every morning
In den sorgen ich versmâh                In the troubles I abhor
Mîner vrouwen, diust so her:                Of my woman, tears at me
Sie spricht, ich tuo it leit und ser        She says, I do it sadly and sorely
Zwâr ich dien ir niemer mèr;                Surely I'll serve her nevermore
Ez get an ein zweien                        There will be a split


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:48 AM

Well done, Michael!

"Teufels Lockvogel" use a different pick of verses; obviously the original poem is much longer. Who finds the complete lyrics in their original wording?

I think (without any authority) that "Jungen meid des nemet war Belîbet unversprochen" may mean "Girls, observe this: Remain unbetrothed" - imperative mood. For "Klaget niht den winter kalt", I would guess either "Don't complain about the cold winter" or "Don't blame the cold winter".

Also, the sense of the last verse could do with some clarification. "She says, I do it sadly and sorely" sounds a bit, ehem ... According to that dictionary, "it" can mean "something" (like Dutch "iets"), thus the phrase may mean "She tells me I'm doing something that insults her".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: leeneia
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 09:02 AM

Thanks, keberoxu and michaelr. That's interesting.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 02:21 AM

Thanks again to everybody. Loads of info here for me to delve into. I have been playing the tune for a number of years and thought it was time that I investigated the lyrics, but kept hitting brick walls. Andy C


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Subject: RE: ADD: (Winter) Winder wie ist nun dein Kraft
From: Stower
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:50 PM

I'd be very grateful if someone can give a translation of the third of fourth verses - michaelr? Grishka? anyone? A web trawl and a search in every book on Neidhart I can lay my hands on yields nothing.

Laisen wir des maien pot
Ich pin meiner frawen spott
Nú muß sie auch gesegen gott
Ich wil von ir keren.
Wem lies ich denn mein gelt?
Ich will auf das Marichfelt
Da die ganczen gendt enczelt
Die wil ich nu leren.
Wie sie tanczen
Und auch swanczen
Mit ir glanczen
Swibelswanczen
Da die klingent
So sie springent
Vor zu tancze
So sweben ode (?odc ?odo) kragen empor
Und achten niemancz umb ein har
Zwar sie geben nichcz empfor
Lúment als die pern.

Ir gogelweis der ist so vil
Wenn sie haben gempelspil
Mit den fússen zu dem zil
Kúnnen sie wol schocken
Auf den zehen siffelns hin
Nach dem newen hofsin
- das ist gar mein ungewin –
Mit iren laiden locken.
Wie sie wencken
Und auch lencken
Und verschrencken
Tanczens tritt
So ist mein gedencken
Wie ichs möcht krencken
Und geschrencken
In, damit
Ir freud wird kranck
Dornach stet mir mein gedanck
So ist springen und ir spanck
Gar gleich den pöcken.


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Subject: RE: ADD: (Winter) Winder wie ist nun dein Kraft
From: Stower
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:52 PM

I copied and pasted the words above and see that some of the accents have disappeared. I hope it is understandable without.


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