BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 17 - 04:41 AM

It's hard to believe that any modern nation would have anti-blasphemy laws. Nonetheless, I do think that blasphemy can be considered to be unpleasant, unkind, and impolite.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 17 - 04:22 AM

The Governor of Jakarta is starting a 2 year jail sentence for blasphemy.
BBC 24 minutes ago,
"Mr Purnama was accused of blasphemy for comments he made during a pre-election speech in September 2016.
He implied that Islamic leaders were trying to trick voters by using a verse in the Koran to argue that Muslims should not vote for a non-Muslim leader.
His remarks, which were widely shared in an edited video, sparked outrage among religious hard-liners. They staged regular large rallies calling for him to face trial."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39853280

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 17 - 03:05 AM

The two "Infancy Narratives," Luke and Matthew, are very different from each other. I haven't seen much speculation on the sources of these stories. They follow the legendary language of the stories of the births of kings, and are generally thought to have been made up to point to the significance of the event of the birth of Jesus, an event whose significance was not known at the time it happened. Matthew builds his five-part narrative on five verses from the Hebrew Scriptures that he sees as explanatory of the significance of this child Jesus. The narrative is very methodically constructed, and parallels the five-part outline of the rest of Matthew, which is built around five "sermons." Whatever you believe about it, Matthew is an interesting piece of literature.
Luke builds his infancy narrative on five canticles (songs) that are loosely based on quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures. Luke's writing is the best Greek in the New Testament, and is of high literary value even in translation.

As far as I can tell, the people of the time were quite aware that these narratives, were fictional works built on a very sketchy collection of facts. It's only within the last hundred years or so, that we've have the slavish literalism of the fundamentalists. Before that, believers viewed these stories as open to embellishment and the "folk process."

The story of the Holy Innocents mirrors the story of the story of Pharaoh's slaughter of Hebrew children at the birth of Moses. So, my guess would be that the story of the Holy Innocents is fictional, but still of great value.

The sacred stories of most cultures have profound value. Those who ridicule them, ridicule all those who hold those stories sacred.

Up above, Big Al said he hadn't heard where Fry talks about Abraham. I gathered from Tunesmith's original message in this thread that Fry had ridiculed the Abraham-Isaac story, but maybe I misunderstood the post.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 17 - 01:49 AM

But there is no evidence that Herod carried that out, Kevin! It's just made-up biblical nonsense, mentioned by one evangelist only who was writing long after Christ was dead (if he ever existed at all). I suppose that doing Herod a disservice doesn't outrage us much, as he was such a murderous git anyway. But it still doesn't turn a scripture-fulfilling myth into the truth, and bad-mouthing a bad man doesn't exactly get us nearer to any deeper truths either.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 17 - 01:29 AM

"As I said earlier, Fry's B grade drama has nothing to do with blasphemy laws."
You were the first to introduce that aspect into this discussion with a spitefully personal attack on his character and an uninformed critical attack of his abilities
Neither accurate or informative
"Fry is a worthless character, vicious and egotistical in the extreme.
A product of media hype, still living on the back of a few cameo roles from twenty years ago......completely irrelevant."
It appears you have done what Blackadder failed to do and shot yourself in the foot in your attempts to divert this away from a religion you claim not to believe in.
It seems to me that your defence of the religion you (claim not to) favour enables you to take vicious swipes at other brands on the market
One of the greatest threats on this planet today comes from religions that are supposed to offer spiritual guidance but, in the hands of zealots and fanatics, hang like a sword of Damocles over us all.
It's long overdue that they were all put in their rightful place as something people can turn to for guidance and comfort (if they are inclined that way) and not an imposed shadow that hangs over believer and non believer alike -
"Now away with all your superstitions" - as the song says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 May 17 - 08:55 PM

As for the story of the Massacre of the Innocents, the tragic truth is that there is nothing unusual about things like that happening in our own time. Sometimes it even gets into the paper eventually, often enough it doesn't even do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 May 17 - 07:16 PM

Pretty good in Blackadder too.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 17 - 06:00 PM

Stephen Fry is a much loved presence on the English entertainment scene. For his portrayal of Oscar Wilde alone, his Golden Globe nomination as best actor makes nonsense of charging him with B grade dramatics.

if you have a point Ake, make it. if not stop showing yourself up.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:18 PM

But the law remains on the statute books...

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: akenaton
Date: 08 May 17 - 04:53 PM

As I said earlier, Fry's B grade drama has nothing to do with blasphemy laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 04:34 PM

Sounds as if it's time for 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' and friends to rally to the cause!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 May 17 - 04:13 PM

That was funny - nobody outraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 17 - 04:03 PM

"stephen-fry-blasphemy-probe-dropped-after-garda-fail-to-find-substantial-number-of-outraged"

Clearly a very small number of Irish idiots!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:43 PM

I remember when the film 'The Last Temptation of Christ' came out, (Scorsese, 1988) there were howls of "Blasphemy!" and many Christians were outraged. However, the film seemed to me to be exploring sensitively a 'what if' idea, and I found it very interesting and moving.

Mohammed's marriage to a young girl doesn't necessarily make him a paedophile. He advocated taking vulnerable women under one's wing in marriage as a way of protecting them. A young girl like that would have had no sexual duties until she was older.

Before getting all het up about religious remarks, art, opinions etc it might be worth reflecting a bit about the context, facts and motivation of the 'perpetrator'. Unless deliberate provocation and hate-mongering is intended, it may be better to let it pass. That way, one isn't giving it an airing!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: mayomick
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:33 PM

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/stephen-fry-blasphemy-probe-dropped-after-garda-fail-to-find-substantial-number-of-outraged

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: mayomick
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:32 PM

Irish Independent two hours ago :
Stephen Fry blasphemy probe dropped after gardaí fail to find 'substantial number of outraged people'

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: robomatic
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:21 PM

The problem with blasphemy is obvious: One man's blasphemy is another man's holy writ.
In the United States the Constitution prohibits Congress from enacting legislation regarding religion. That was a radical principal when it was written down in setting up a nation. Most nations of the world in one way or another favor a state religion, the Communists not excepted, because they treat Communism as THE state religion.
Reading down this thread, which I find quite enjoyable, I keep remembering Thomas Paine's famous riposte. After he said, "I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death". And when others round him hollered "Treason!" he responded: "If this be treason, make the most of it!"
What goes through my mind is, on Stephen Fry's behalf: "If this be blasphemy, make the most of it!"

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:24 PM

As distinct from Joan Bakewell - Anne Coulter - THE LYNCHING MAN'S CRUMPET
"Jim it has been rebuttal not denial, and every few weeks for SIX YEARS!
Will you ever stop?"
Not while I have breath Keith - live with it
"So what? Child marriage was legal everywhere then and was here until comparatively recent times"
Then why put it up as an argument about child rape?
Your choice
"That is why you can not quote me."
Just have and you've just confirmed it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 17 - 01:57 PM

"Thanks for that Stu - I knew that"

Just being a pedantic old git!



"Ann Coulter."

Quoting Ann Coulter in this context is a good a bit of trolling as you'll see anywhere on the internet. Hats off to you Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 17 - 01:48 PM

Jim it has been rebuttal not denial, and every few weeks for SIX YEARS!
Will you ever stop?

"Paedophilia is not endorsed, but the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) took a child bride."

So what? Child marriage was legal everywhere then and was here until comparatively recent times.

Romeo's Juliet was 12, as was Henry Tudor's mother when she conceived.
Joseph's Mary would be under 14 at conception and possibly just 12.

I have never denigrated any religion or its followers.
That is why you can not quote me.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 01:48 PM

"Ann Coulter."
Couldn't find a better expert on HATE SPEECH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: akenaton
Date: 08 May 17 - 01:10 PM

" "Liberals" cannot conceive of "hate speech" towards Christians because, in their eyes, Christians always deserve it"

Ann Coulter.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: akenaton
Date: 08 May 17 - 12:47 PM

That's rubbish Jim...and you know it, the dictates of Islam and Christianity are as different as night and day.
The killing of homosexuals, discrimination against women, FGM.....many more, but not a peep from you fuckers.....wouldn't want to be thought racist I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 12:30 PM

"Komodo."
Thanks for that Stu - I knew that
You got off lighhtly there, I nearly wrote Kimono - thinking about something else entirely!
"their overriding intention is to bring down the Church"
Any organisation that facilitates and connives in the rape of children for many decades, needs bringing down - or at least confined to a place they can no longer do any harm
You are dishonest when you claim we confine our bashing to the Christian Church - I have always made a point that the mixture of politics and all religions is a toxic one
The Chritian church is just the one that has affected our lives for all our lives. Give ius a break Ake (nice bit of alliteration), you are not going to plouter your way around the Stone-Age on this as well, are you.
Organised religion has more than proved itself untrustworthy and it's about time that it was stopped from doing the damage it has.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 17 - 12:24 PM

That is the type of irreverence we should encourage everywhere - thanks Dan :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: olddude
Date: 08 May 17 - 12:21 PM

What does steven fry.. Make mine a steak please

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 17 - 12:11 PM

A menace to society who would deprive decent people of their faith.

People cannot be deprived of faith. They either have it or they don't. You are, as ever, talking complete drivel.

I notice the Mudcat "liberals" confine their faith bashing to the Christian faith.

I have often said that people can believe in whatever imaginary friend they want as long as they don't expect me to do the same. How is that restricted to Christianity?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 17 - 12:06 PM

"their overriding intention is to bring down the Church"

Ha ha! Ake, you are priceless.


"I notice the Muscat "liberals" confine their faith bashing to the Christian faith."

In my case, because I was raised a christian and therefore have as good an understanding of it as most in this country. However, I suspect they're all baseless with the possible exception of magic, but not for supernatural reasons.


"They are outraged that the Church still refuses to accept homosexual "marriage""

Ah, the gentleman doth protest too much. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 12:04 PM

"I have rebutted your false accusations enough times."
Denial is not the same as rebuttal
Even the Phrophet was a Paedo, according to you
"Paedophilia is not endorsed, but the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) took a child bride."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: akenaton
Date: 08 May 17 - 11:51 AM

Fry and his ilk are not interested in the blasphemy laws, their overriding intention is to bring down the Church, which they see as the last bastion of social conservatism. They are outraged that the Church still refuses to accept homosexual "marriage", that is what drives Fry and most woolly headed "liberals" who seem to admire him.
If he were only an idiot like Joe says there may have been an excuse, but he is much worse. A menace to society who would deprive decent people of their faith.

I notice the Mudcat "liberals" confine their faith bashing to the Christian faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 17 - 11:39 AM

Jim, I detest your dredging this issue up every couple of weeks.

I have rebutted your false accusations enough times.
When will you stop making them?

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 17 - 11:35 AM

Jim,
"All Pakistanis Muslim males" was the description given in the question put to me.

The descriptor "Muslim" was irrelevant as I had already stated several times that Islam was not a factor in that offending. I just repeated the wording used in the question I was responding to.


I have never denigrated any religion or its followers.
If I have, QUOTE ME!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 11:21 AM

"Islam was not in any way an issue in the offending under discussion."
Nope Keith - I'm referring to your outrageous statement that All Pakistanis Muslim males are culturally implanted to have underage sex
Muslim referred a religion last time I looked it up and Pakistani referred to a race - making your shitty statement an attack on both race and religion - otherwise why use either term?
Finished here Keith
- Stephen Fry is much more interesting and I have yet to hear him make racist comments about anybody, though I admit, he's not quite as entertaining as your antics attempts at being a clown
By-ee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 May 17 - 10:08 AM

Also, wasn't there a bloody long time between the speech and the accusation of blasphemy? Why now, and not then?

Also, Big Al, go Quakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 17 - 10:07 AM

Jim,
No fucking up yet another thread with your Muslim cultural implants Keith

Jim, I have never spoken of any such a thing.
I think you refer to a thread where I said, repeatedly, that Islam was not in any way an issue in the offending under discussion.

I can produce many quotes to support that.
You have nothing to support your false claim.

If I have ever denigrated any faith, QUOTE ME!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 10:06 AM

I'll be happy to wake up to any kind of animal as long as he was there as well! (Perhaps not a giant spider though...)

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 17 - 10:03 AM

Komodo.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 09:59 AM

Love him, love his animals Sen
Hope you don't mind waking up next to a Kimodo Dragon!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 09:37 AM

I didn't know it was his Birthday today! In which case, Many Happy Returns Sir David.
A friend and I met him at a book-signing in a store in Norwich. He had a huge queue to deal with, but remained charming and delightful for hours. He just radiates goodness. (I have a massive crush on him; can you tell? :) )

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 09:19 AM

No fucking up yet another thread with your Muslim cultural implants Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 17 - 09:18 AM

"I remember Sir David Attenborough (a man I greatly admire)"

He's 91 today! A truly great man and a massive influence on me, especially when I was a boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 17 - 09:13 AM

Jim,
Not again Keith
You know very well who and what I am referring to
Wear your badge with pride

If you mean me, you are wrong.
Unlike you I have never criticised any religion or its believers in any post.

Feel free to prove me wrong, but you will find nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 08:52 AM

I remember Sir David Attenborough (a man I greatly admire) saying that he found it incomprehensible that a so-called loving God had created a certain fly (I forget which species) whose only way of reproducing was for its larva to grow in people's eyes. He cited a child who had this particular parasite, which was eating away his eyeball.
He started out as a Christian I believe, but these musings led him to lose his faith.
I wouldn't call these remarks 'blasphemy', yet they aren't very different in implication from those uttered by Stephen Fry.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 17 - 07:42 AM

Massacre of the Innocents from 6:25 !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 May 17 - 07:40 AM

The assumption that the fanaticism and bigotry which can distort the words and actions of "believers" is founded on childhood indoctrination needs to be examined critically. Typically it can be the reverse - it's among the people who have been drawn to a belief system, or drawn back to it, in adult life or adolescence, that you are likely to find the fanatics and bigots.

Typically in the accounts of jihadist terrorists from this country you find the same picture of a past in which they were either "bad Muslims", or not Muslims at all. I think you'd find the same pattern in relation to many belief or loyalty systems. Even among football supporters or political activists. Or those who are most vocal in attacking their own root community.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 07:39 AM

Early days yet
The faithful are still getting to grips with their new-found freedom
The gay marriage issue was the first big step forward - a resounding victory for common sense and humanity over dogma.
The St Vincent's issue is bound to be a testing ground on the rights of women to take control over their own lives.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 17 - 07:33 AM

The church still has a stranglehold on Irish legislation, especially in maternity matters and abortion.

http://parentsforchoice.ie/the-8th-amendment-and-maternity-care/

I am surprised no one has tested these laws under EU human rights legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 07:15 AM

"I challenge that claim and ask for an example."
Not again Keith
You know very well who and what I am referring to
Wear your badge with pride
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 17 - 07:10 AM

A little more than 'Old Testament' spitefulness
The church has echoed that spitefulness down the ages, from the Crusades to the modern day causes it has espoused ans supported.
Some of religion's worst enemies come from within the church - rapist clergymen, supporters of dictators and torturers, hypocritical self-declared "Christians" who fail to display a shred of Christian values - particularly love and tolerance.
Thye tend to be the ones who complain the loudest about 'persecution' when they are often the worst of persecutors and they do so loudly declaring their 'Christianity'.
Look to thyself - as the scriptures say
Beliefs, when privately and freely held, are a personal matter; when they are forced on generation after generation, at an age preceding rational thought, they become poisonously dangerous - brainwashing on an international scale.
It is time the church as a body was totally divorced from the State - politically, educationally..... and in every other way
We have a nonsensical situation here in Ireland where a group of somewhat unchristian but extremely wealthy nuns are being given the right to run one of the country's most important maternity hospitals - amid loud howls of protest from Christian Irish people who see the conflicts and conflicts of such a situation.
Hopefully, it it yet another case of the Church shooting itself in the foot - it really can't have manyt feet left.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 17 - 06:59 AM

'Just out of interest, why does god allow such appalling suffering?'

yes when the Younger Generation whistled I was Kaiser Bill's Batman, on the Rolf Harris Show - such thoughts often came to me.

Fear not beyond the dark night of the soul there are sunny days.