BS: Ultimate hate

Subject: BS: Ultimate hate
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 11:45 AM

A very disturbing report on the news. A 31 year old man fell into a pond and was drowning. Three teenage boys were video taping him and taunting him, you are going to die we won't help you, hold your breath etc. The man's body was recovered a week later. They posted their video on Facebook and mailed a copy to the guys sister. Police said no charges could be filed as Florida law says you don't have to help someone in distress. Unbelieveable how sad this society has become.. How evil

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 12:06 PM

Is there anything in Florida law that says their names and addresses can't be released to the media? I mean, if they haven't done anything criminal, they don't have any grounds for objecting, do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 12:25 PM

And their faces. Florida law may saw there isn't any requirement to help, but in addition to their common humanity there is common decency. Recording the incident, as least to me, moves them to something less than what I scrape off my shoes when I come from a corral.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 12:39 PM

They posted their video on Facebook

Just one of the other "benefits" of "social Media". It encourages people to do this kind of shit so they can get their 30 minutes of Internet Fame.

Was a girl who shot & killed her boyfreied not all that long ago in attempting to record an "awesome" vide for Farcebook.

Yjen of course there's the "me first and screw everyone else I need to be the center of attention" example of the the POSOTUS....

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM

Presumably these cretins' parents now know what their offspring have done. I wonder what their reaction was? I can't imagine any parent being anything but completely horrified, but having produced three psychopaths, maybe their families are as mad as a box of frogs anyway...

I agree Greg, much of this is about getting attention on social media.
Surely there must be some repercussions? And the poor drowned man's family? They must be completely devastated.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 12:47 PM

Florida law bars involuntary release of the identities of juveniles (under 18 y/o) involved in the criminal justice system except in cases where they are being tried as adults (usually murder).

Ironically, while the boys violated no law by not helping the drowning man, they were in violation of a law when he died and they failed to report discovery of a dead body. They may be tried on that charge, which is a misdemeanor.

The next Florida legislative session begins on March 6, 2018. You can bet a bill correcting this blatant legal oversight will be introduced on day one.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 01:02 PM

They outed themselves by posting on facebook. Their peers, and soon their peers' parents will know, if they don't already.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 01:17 PM

There isn't enough bad shit that can happen to those three for the rest of their lives.. Life has a way of paying back.. How sad how terrible

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 01:34 PM

Dan, I agree wholeheartedly.
I put it down to the disintegration of society, everything seems to be geared towards personal gratification regardless of the effect on others.

In my youth people were much poorer financially by we all looked out for our friends and neighbours.....we needed them in times of trouble.

Now we need no one ....if we want something we get it instantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 01:45 PM

I'm wondering if they'd taken drugs of some sort, which inhibited their empathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 01:53 PM

I wish that were true according to the police officer they were having a good time watching a man die for their video

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 01:54 PM

everything seems to be geared towards personal gratification regardless of the effect on others

But Ake- that's exactly what your hero Trump "The Incredible Id" preaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 03:23 PM

I suppressed the urge to post this story for days.
I heard that as the man was drowning the kids taunted and insulted him.

This is surprisingly common behavior. Not normal but common. Cruelty has been quantified and qualified by the famous Stanford experiments.

Results range from 0 to 65% likely to cause harm unto death depending on the parameters of the experiment.

I have preached about the infamous and evil 20% for some time.
I witnessed over 100 kids witness 'this man' have his skull fractured over the course of 20 minutes by an assailant.

When I have reacted to another unfamiliar person's emergency I have been the only one to act. When it is a person you know the heroic's are amazing and group coordinated.

Other experiments that an individual does not even respond to smoke if another person in the room dismisses it entirely. You heard about the curiosities of mob behavior.

I have had to view hate as a science in my analysis of holocausts and war but I am human and the emotional toll can be devastating. Helping vets get past PTSD (shell shock) is a traumatic process.

Most of us know the horrors of this world. I have no special immunity.
Nor have I experienced the ultimate hate. To be clear I was fortunate to avoid the ultimate hate sometimes by a split second.

If you are ever a victim, the odds are still in your favor of getting the help you need, so your hope of help is well grounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 03:38 PM

Donuel, was that the 'Obedience' experiment conducted by Stanley Milgram at Yale University in 1974? He was a psychologist who set up a scenario where volunteers were exhorted to administer electric shocks to hidden 'learners' (actually actors) who screamed in pain. 65% of the volunteers continued to press the shock button up to a supposedly 400 Volts. The results were later shown to have been slightly skewed, nevertheless I fully believe that in certain circumstances people can be persuaded to do terrible things.

I suppose we all like to think we would never act in an evil fashion, but I mistrust that word 'never'.

However, in this tragic drowning incident, the only 'pressure' seems to have been achieving fame on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 03:57 PM

There were about 19 different scenarios. 0% was a group where the authority figure wore regular clothing (no white coat or uniforms) and there were two participants with differing shock opinions and the person to be shocked was in the same room.

I received a confession of a young man who participated in a cattle prod torture of a young lady. His behavior was influenced by the mob behavior factor. He was not in the slightest bit innocent, however he never would have instigated that behavior.

The facebook villains were possibly both of the 20% of the population who are empathy deficient. If only one of them was empathetic the incident would not have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 04:12 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

An interesting review of many countries attitude to rescue. I cannot vouch for it's accuracy and it is probably a simplification of the reality.

But there is a potential downside to helping already injured people.
where a defendant can sometimes be held liable for negligence if the defendant's conduct makes the person's injuries worse, With the best will in the world a first aider or anybody may make a mistake and aggravate injuries. e.g. placing a person in the recovery position when they have spinal injuries. In this litigious world we inhabit where we seek to be victims, and look for blame allocation and muneee, it does make a person think twice or even three times before offering any kind of aid. This coupled with the me me culture of instant gratifications paints a picture for an increasingly ugly future.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 04:15 PM

I think the 'pass by on the other side' reaction is also quite common. I've seen 'social experiments' on TV where someone pretends to collapse in the street, and people saunter past unheeding. I do see that one might fear it's a scam or a decoy for stealing, especially in a city environment, but it's still chilling to watch.

I've had the rare pupil who has done something strangely cruel or bizarrely bad, and most of them were unable to explain it.

Human nature is indeed complex, unpredictable and daunting...

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 05:35 PM

everything seems to be geared towards personal gratification regardless of the effect on others

But Ake- that's exactly what your hero Trummp "The Incredible Id" preaches.


Where exactly does Mr Duck preach that - ... geared towards personal gratification regardless of the effect on others

Lights blue touchpaper and retires to safe distance

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 05:58 PM

Florida, like many (if not all), of the other States has "hold harmless" laws protecting good samaritans, whether they are or are not trained in ways to help. Those boys would have been held to a lesser standard than, say, an EMT, but they were still protected from lawsuit, etc.

I know Cassie Jo Stoddart's grandfather.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 06:01 PM

Yo, Skakey - are you blind man? First of all, that's Mr. Schmuck- or just plain schmuck is suffieient.That Personifies "The incredible Id" and his cohorts.

One example: His "health care"[sic] bill- go die in the gutter. I'm OK Jack.

Plenty more examples where that one came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 06:17 PM

Yo, Skakey - are you blind man?

No, I'm not, and the name is Shakey

First of all, that's Mr. Schmuck- or just plain schmuck is suffieient.That Personifies "The incredible Id" and his cohorts.

Could somebody translate this for me please

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 06:33 PM

Social experiments what ever, they are evil little bastards who got their rocks off with their snuff out video, and then send a copy to the man's family. One can only hope in karma. I hope for a nice warm place in hell for them.. But that is just my humble opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 07:01 PM

And I don't have to wonder what I would do, or rap or gnu or anyone else I know well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 08:45 PM

It seems odd to me that there are people who were never put to the test. If you believe you are predestined to help you probably would have many times by the age of 25. Or was my life somehow different?
That difference may have been being saved/helped myself early on in the midst of victimization.

Old dude, not everyone is inclined to ask deep hard questions, whatever (indignation noted). I would never say that 1 in 5 people would perpetrate such 'Facebook 'evil but that they fall into a social psychopath population in which a small segment are evil little bastards. Some social psychopaths are decent people. The same is true for paranoids.

Studying the selection and training of the SS can be a life saving science or it can be entertainment for the evil and depraved. I think people would benefit from knowing the mechanism of evil. But that's just me.

Admit it or not there is reptilian evil in everyone. If you ask people if there was anyone they ever wanted to kill over 50% say yes and some even provide details as to how. Then there are those who actually do kill. Old Dude, "knowing well" is not knowing all, but without trust where would you be now?.

Remember since age 5 I have sought an answer to why we have holocausts, since that is where most of my family perished.
Too bad I can never be an academic that will ever be heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 08:50 PM

There will be a Quiz on Tuesday :^/

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 09:01 PM

A name is something we either are given by others or choose for ourselves as needed, such as our Mudcat tags. It is possible to misspell a name and, inadvertently not apologize. Failure to apologize suggests a certain meanness of spirit, akin to the subject of this thread but not as egregiously harmful. Names are important to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 11:30 PM

Six months ago I had a doctor appt withmy ccardiology guys. I was sitting next to a lady who was about 70 years old. Her son comes in screaming at her, get the fuck in thecar . She said to him no Iwwon't ride with you you took crack again. He curses her grabs her hair and drags her out of her seat. A second later he was on the ground wih me in the
PProcess of
RRemoving his arm. Nurse called the cops. He was taking to jail
I ddon't sit back ever

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 11:34 PM

Lady said he had a bad drug problem, I said I hope he gets help. Lot of people in the waiting room just watching. I can never understand it

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 17 - 11:37 PM

I should have broken his arm for him, sick bastard hurting that nice lady drugs or not.. All I wanted to do was go to my doctor for a check up and stuff like this happens too often

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 12:11 AM

They may be charging them with failure to report a death, which is a crime. A small one.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 03:52 AM

Well done olddude! Isn't it appalling that others just sat there trying to pretend it wasn't happening?

I'm afraid I tend to be an 'interfering old biddie'. I usually step forward and put a stop to stuff if I can (old schoolteacher syndrome!)
In the public library, three teenage lads were swearing and making a hoohah while the toddlers' song group was in session. The librarian was on her own, and asked them pleasantly to be a little quieter. They told her to f*** off and carried on even worse than before. I metaphorically rolled up my sleeves and went for it. I put my face close to theirs and hissed (never shout, it reduces the effect!) that they must stop swearing immediately, especially as the little ones could hear. I told them to leave at once or I would send for the Police. Then I treated them to my Teacher's Basilisk Stare. Youngsters always stare back then drop their gaze and slink off, which is what they did. But there were two men sitting at the computers in the corner who totally ignored the situation and took no action.

I feel such pity for this man's family. To think those wicked lads could have saved him but chose instead to mock him as he died. How can they ever come to terms with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 07:11 AM

That's the dynamic old dude we know and love. However that kind of victim help should not be attempted without 'disarming' skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 08:11 AM

You're quite right Donuel, one should have the necessary skills in order to tackle an aggressive, fully-grown adult male. All I could do to disarm such a chap would be to knock him to the ground and firmly sit on him. He'd probably be crushed to death...

There was a case a couple of days ago of some poor lady on a UK train trying to breastfeed her tiny baby standing up, with two people's bicycles banging into her legs. Not one soul offered her their seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 09:16 AM

There are more good than bad people: 80 people form human chain to rescue stranded group

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 11:59 AM

Anmd the beat goes on- more on the value of "social media":

MERCED, Calif. (AP) — An 18-year-old woman has been arrested in California on suspicion of causing a deadly crash that she recorded live on Instagram.

Obdulia Sanchez was booked into the Merced County Jail on suspicion of DUI and vehicular manslaughter after Friday's crash that killed her 14-year-old sister and badly injured another 14-year-old girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 12:13 PM

There is another kind of organized evil that kills.
It is Paul Ryan's savage conservatives against life and well being unless you are wealthy.

I am not obsessed with the hateful Bannon Trump daily distraction accusations as much as the destruction of the EPA, Education, State Dept. and HHS by appointees and Ryan Republicans who find a way to further empower the wealthy in every bill that their corporate lobbyists write.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 12:18 PM

Yes Greg, I cant help but wonder if these violent and gruesome computer games that children of today are addicted to have squeezed all the empathy out of them.
They seem like empty shells. Are these games really pornography for children?

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 01:21 PM

That could well be a factor akenaton. Their parents seem to allow them to play the most awful, violent video games and their developing young brains are perhaps being wired to suppress emotions and tune out empathy.
The difficulty is that if 'all their friends are doing it' they'll kick up a shindy if one tries to shield them from such murderous rubbish. Peer pressure is usually dominant over parental control.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 01:30 PM

Computer games are regularly blamed and regularly acquitted. There is violence everywhere - have you looked around you?

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 01:34 PM

Yeah, check the Trump Campaign and the Twat's recent Twits.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 01:37 PM

Well Acme, I suppose we're in a little haven here in our small village in the sticks. We have hardly any crime and people go off to bed at 10pm. I do see terrible things on the News, but there's nothing in our immediate neighbourhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 02:40 PM

Old dude, I'm with you mate. I would take pleasure in decking that prick.

Every great civilization that ever rose from nothing returned to nothing. I'm afraid it is our turn.

Remember, the common Gorilla has 97% of the same dna that we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: meself
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 03:09 PM

With all due respect, I question the value of this sort of thread. The truth is, there have always been appalling things done by horrid people. And people have been saying pretty much the same things about them for as long as I can remember .....

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 04:15 PM

Nevertheless we can still express ourselves and give our opinions about possible causes of this phenomenon.
I don't think a thread has to have a 'value' necessarily, just be a talking point for folk on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 04:15 PM

what meself said.
Rap could find a Roman letter to that effect all about "kids today".

Regarding the video game training. Yes DARPA has made games to hone the skills of young predators. But you have it backwards if you think they TURN good kids bad.

The last time this argument was pursued it was by the NRA after the massacre of 1st graders at Sandy Hook.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 04:19 PM

I was on a trip to the Soviet Union in the 70s when a couple of Americans in my group came back from a walk in Leningrad and told me of seeing a man drowning in the river with no one going to his aid, similar to the above incident only if sardonic comments were passed in Russian they didn't hear or understand them.

There is even a joke about an old man who falls through the ice into the Moscow River and the sentries on shore are ignoring him, so he shouts "Down with the Tsar!" so they haul him out and arrest him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ultimate hate
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 08:06 PM

That's out loud funny!