BS: War Without End, Amen.

Subject: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 12:02 PM

— President Trump, who has been accused by lawmakers of dragging his feet on Afghanistan, has settled on a new strategy to carry on the nearly 16-year-old conflict there, administration officials said Sunday. The move, following a detailed review, is likely to open the door to the deployment of several thousand troops.

Mr. Trump entered office as the skeptic in chief, and any ramped-up engagement there poses political risks for the president, who rallied voters weary of war with his sharp criticisms of American involvement in the country.

"We should have a speedy withdrawal. Why should we keep wasting our money — rebuild the U.S.!" Mr. Trump tweeted about Afghanistan in January 2013, as he considered running for office in 2016.

************

Talk of 'Preventive War' Rises in White House Over North Korea:

General McMaster and other administration officials have challenged the long-held view that there is no real military solution to the North Korea problem — though they are quick to acknowledge that it would be "horrible," as Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis put it.

"Are we preparing plans for a preventive war?" General McMaster asked recently in a television interview. He answered his own question: "The president's been very clear about it. He said he's not going to tolerate North Korea being able to threaten the United States."

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:40 PM

(Trump) rallied voters weary of war with his sharp criticisms of American involvement in (Afghanistan).

I never saw Trump's campaign rhetoric against US foreign involvement as being either genuine or much of a rallying point among his supporters. The same people would have voted for him if he'd said exactly the opposite on the campaign trail. He just spouted the rhetoric that seemed to work best at the moment.

Trumpism is a a personality cult, not a well-considered political belief system. He can say opposite things on two separate days and his supporters will cheer both messages equally.

There's no such thing as contradiction when facts and logic are considered to be unimportant irrelevancies, at best, or, more often, personal assaults by Trump's enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 08:27 AM

"War Without End, Amen."
Looks inevitable following Trump's latest display of sabre rattling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 09:04 AM

President Donal-John is correct, to walk away now would be to allow Afghanistan to return to being a haven for ISIS.

What he should do is work to unite the great powers in policing the whole of Afghanistan Iraq Libya....expensive but I don't see any alternative....Allowing ISIS to control these countries is not an option, resources must be pooled, political differences banished.

Unity and evolution is the answer. Short term advantage must be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 09:54 AM

"President Donal-John is correct, to walk away now would be to allow Afghanistan to return to being a haven for ISIS."
You were screaming about Clinton the warmongerer - now the world has a belligerent warmongering President, you say he has no alternative
This war is about oil Blair - not Terrorism - if it were not, Trump would not be cosying up to the Saudi regime who backed 9/11
Terrorism, according to the likes of Trump, is based on which side the terrorist are terrorising for.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 10:20 AM

Oh yeah, Clinton the warmonger:

"Trump's reversal stands out not just for the outright vehemence with which he previously argued that America needed to put an end to its 16-year-long war but also because of what it says about his foreign policy at large. In the seven months since taking office, Trump has expanded military operations in Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Libya and, now, Afghanistan. And that's in addition to an escalated nuclear standoff with North Korea."

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 10:22 AM

Ake, Afghanistan has been a haven for a number of unpleasant groups, al-Quaida and the Taliban for instance, but not ISIS. ISIS and the Taliban do not get on. ISIS were created by western involvement in Syria and Iraq.

We have been fighting in Afghanistan, on and off, since the 1840s. We have never won. Time to give it up.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 10:45 AM

Donal Jerk doubling down in "The Graveyard of Empires" because his ego won't let him be known as the loser of the Afghan War, plus it's a convenient distraction from his numerous domestic fuckups and the various ongoing investigations which will start heating up again in September. It all adds up to more young people dead.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 10:49 AM

...and people of all ages and various nationalities dead.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 10:57 AM

Yes I understand your point of view David, but there is every chance that the Taliban will join forces and support the Caliphate
All are Islamic fundamentalists, and Islamic fundamentalism is one of the gravest dangers to society.

This is a wonderful chance to pull the great powers together in a real attempt to defeat terrorism and get away once and for all from the Cold War mentality promoted by the Bush, Clinton, and Obama administrations.

The key will be world trade, both Russia and China are anxious to improve trade and if we can become strong trading partners trust and unity of purpose can ensue.

Circumstances alter cases and to walk away from the middle East at this juncture is just not a viable option....neither is the option of going it alone likely to work, as East and West will fall back on the default position of trying to gain as much personal advantage as possible.
We are entering an extremely dangerous period regarding to protection of economy and society against Islamic terrorism.
The first biological or chemical attack by these lunatics will send the developed nations into meltdown.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 11:00 AM

"with regard to"

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 11:03 AM

It all adds up to more young people dead

That's how Trump is going to "honor the sacrifices of the more than 2,200 Americans who had already died there." [direct quote].

By killing MORE Americans - That's Trumpinlelligence & logic for ya.

Unless it's President McMaster's and Vice President "Mad Dog" Mattis'...

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 01:58 PM

"
Yes I understand your point of view David, but there is every chance that the Taliban will join forces and support the Caliphate"
Crap - this is Trump's "weapons of mass destruction"
The two have always been at loggerheads and now Isis is on the skids it is unlikely that they will join up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 02:00 PM

Donal Dumbass truly is a man of vision.
Here he is using it to view yesterday's solar eclipse without protective eyewear.

CNN

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 02:06 PM

Now lets see......

1. DonalDumbo says stay in this un-winnable war to honor the Americans who have alread been killed there.

2. He has a "secret plan".....

Jesus Fu*king Christ, its DICK NIXON RISEN FROM THE GRAVE!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 02:16 PM

It really pisses me off to even respond to you Jim, but do you have any opinions at all on the terrorism crisis and the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.....or is always to be a series of abusive rants?

Don't you ever allow yourself to contemplate life as it is....not filtered through your myth laden ideology?

All over the world thousands of innocents are being murdered in the cause and never a word of condemnation from you.....you must loathe your country ....any country, when you deny them the right to defend themselves.    These people are dangerous psychopaths, what will you say when the inevitable happens....chemicals??? biology???

You'll be alright, back under your stone.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 02:58 PM

It really pisses me off to even respond to you Jim,

Then do yourself and all the rest a favor, Ache - DONT!

And another one bites the dust.......

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 03:02 PM

"It really pisses me off to even respond to you Jim"
Probaly why you never bother -s you haven't here
Cop onto yourself Ake - you are nothing but an extremist right-wing troll who drifts about from thread to thread like a smelly fart
If you have an argument, have the bottle to put it
The Americans under Trump are the last people on this Planet to bring peace to the people of the Middle East - not while there are SUVs to be kept on the road
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 03:23 PM

See if you can weave Iran into that coalition somehow Ake, if you do we will know you are well and truly deranged.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM

T was referring to major world powers I suppose America would seek assistance from the lesser western nations, Russia and China would do the same in their sphere of influence.

I detect a note of viciousness/cynicism in your response David, perhaps you would be good enough to advance your opinions on the way forward? Or like Jim, do you prefer sniping?

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 06:36 PM

Just saw some excerpts from DonalBumbo's speech las night on TV.

Now, he's quoting the IWW - "An injury to one is an injury to all".

You couldn't make this shit up.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 12:14 AM

Don't you ever allow yourself to contemplate life as it is....not filtered through your myth laden ideology?

Right, Ake. Tell us about life not filtered through a warped view. You only support Trump because so many here oppose him, you can't give yourself permission to examine the life he's led and the corruption he participates in. Or you'd understand what everyone else here sees clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 02:16 AM

This thread is not about the President, it is about how we move forward and deal with the problems facing us. socially and politically.

"War without end" is one option, I have suggested another, how about other members or moderators contributing to that discussion rather than nit picking on their favourite gripe.

There will be other Presidents, but the social and political problems will remain and solutions must be found.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 03:35 AM

"This thread is not about the President, "
No - it's about the vicious Gung-Ho attitude that has always existed in American International politics that has been capitalised on by a talentless politician who is using it to gain popularity
The solution has always been there - to with the hearts and minds of people rather than attempting to beat them into submission with military might.
Isis and the like is more of an idea than it is a physical presence - all the bombs and troops in th world will not destroy ideas - a difficult concept to graso by those incapable of thought.
Isis is no weaker as a philosophy, despite its military defeats - the only way to fight it is to win over those who see it as an answer to genuine grievances - hearts and minds
That's not going to happen while we look on with indifference as drowned children are carried out of the sea after seeking refuge from wars we helped bring about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 06:23 AM

ake-"This thread is not about the President".

For you it is all about defending this incompetent man-child. If things had gone differently last November and a President Clinton was now proposing an escalation in Afghanistan you'd be on here screaming "WARMONGER, WARMONGER, I told you so" and you bloody well know it. Acme's right, you only take positions that you hope will rankle those detestable "liberals". You're a disingenuous old troll.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 08:59 AM

"For you it is all about defending this incompetent man-child. If things had gone differently last November and a President Clinton was now proposing an escalation in Afghanistan you'd be on here screaming "WARMONGER, WARMONGER, I told you so" and you bloody well know it." - gillymor

Not true and it has very little to do with Trump, and a great deal to do with your last President - Barak Obama - go back and read the deal he struck with the Afghan Government when the withdrawal date was set. HE committed the USA to backing financially, economically, socially and militarily the Afghan Government in it's fight against internal and external enemies until 2024.

Donald Trump has just done a U-Turn on his promise to actually get out of Afghanistan completely and leave it to it's own devices. This decision has been taken on considering the best course of action with regard to the best interests of the USA - Which means that while Trump might have announced it he certainly did not make this decision on his own.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 09:05 AM

You missed the point completely, the same thing ake is praising Donal Jerk for he would be excoriating a President Clinton for. He is a well-documented phony on these pages.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:46 AM

There is no comparison Gilly, President Donal-John says America will be there to kill terrorists not conduct the failed tactic of "Nation Building" favoured by the warmonger Clinton.
You should thank your lucky stars that she was resoundingly beaten in the election.
She has been instrumental in the destruction of Iraq and Libya so far, just failing to get her way in Syria.

She must be ISIS most potent weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 12:01 PM

He's a troll. He doesn't have to post anything correct, if the need to set him straight will get him some attention.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 12:09 PM

"He's a troll"....quite a few here are beginning to think that they know where the biggest trolls hide......Peek jeri!!!

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 02:46 PM

"He's a troll".
Of course he is - he always has been - he's only attention seeking - he doesn't even put up an argument
You fellers have told me often enough "stop feeding the trolls"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 03:24 AM

I have been posting regularly here since 2003, "trolls" do not operate like that.

On this thread I have been asking for reasonable views on how the West moves forward and avoids future wars and terrorist attacks, which I though was the purpose of the thread.
If I was wrong in that, ask yourselves, do we really require ANOTHER thread attacking your democratically elected President?

Do you care about avoiding wars in the future, or are you consumed by the "liberal" /conservative side show and of course your farcial sexual and gender politics?

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:14 AM

"I have been posting regularly here since 2003, "trolls" do not operate like that."
They do when they are fanatics with nowhere else to go
Your fanatical hatred for anything decent or natural would not be tolerated elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 07:05 AM

Come on Jim, surely you can do better?
What about some ideas, everyone gets bored by rabid dog tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 07:10 AM

This aught to be the most important thread on the board, well done to Greg for opening it.
A little thought and effort would expand the parameters dramatically.

What about a global coalition   against terrorism, could it be made to work? If not, is there any other way.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 09:11 AM

What about a Mudcat coalition to ignore Ake completely?

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 09:15 AM

ake who?

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 11:53 AM

You must know that the views expressed by Ake are widely held.
Why not just confront and challenge them.
What are you afraid of?

I am sure Ake is not alone in his views here on Mudcat. Others are just afraid of this abuse being directed at them.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 01:41 PM

"What about a Mudcat coalition to ignore Ake completely?"


THEY LOSE! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 02:31 PM

"In every
War Without End
The dead and gone
Die in disgrace.

futile, useless,
pointless, hopeless,
carnage in vain
with no purpose.

Valor Courage
The strong and brave
Die for a lie
and rot in graves"

-Donald H.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 04:11 PM

the views expressed by Ake are widely held.

Yes - by idiots.

Hence DonalJerkwad.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:19 AM

"Idiots."
They might say that about you, so argue your case and convince them with reason.
That is what sets the rational apart from the idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Stu
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 06:50 AM

Trump is relevant because he's a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself. He represents unfettered and unregulated capitalism in it's purest form. His selling point is he's a businessman and NOT a politician, and he represents a significant dumbing down of the challenges facing society today.

Like Brexit, Trump taps into people's sense of nostalgia and the sense that things were better in the past and we can recreate this non-existent utopia in the face of modern challenges. All we are actually doing is handing even more control to the corporates and establishment, and we are now governed with their best interests at heart and not ours.

Whilst it's easy to insult those who voted for Trump and Brexit, the truth is they feel left behind and in many ways we all are; the gap between us and those in the politics, the establishment, the media and the upper tiers of business is growing ever wider.

The reason people have been left behind is because of a lack of foresight and imagination from the ruling classes. Politicians COULD have helped established new manufacturing industries that would replace the old ones and give people meaningful jobs. Politicians of ALL parties are responsible for this wilful myopia; we could have had a world-leading green technologies being developed and manufactured on both side os the pond had their been an ounce of foresight or leadership in our governments.

Instead they let the Chinese get the jump on us and fell back on the usual rhetoric blaming anyone but themselves: immigrants, benefit cheats, black people. If you voted for Trump or UKIP/Brexit/Tory you have to take some responsibility for the situation as others don't think government has to be regressive and negative, but we just get told to "get over it" and shut up.

The only way is to look forward positively, re-establish a government for the people that gives them some power and say in how we run society (unions, workers on boards, politicians that transcend the idiocy of party politics) and start building something less negative than walls and bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 07:25 AM

So his views are widely held, eh? You mean views like this?

"Do you care about avoiding wars in the future, or are you consumed by the "liberal" /conservative side show and of course your farcial sexual and gender politics?"

Those are the views of bigots and are arguments from ignorance and intolerance. If you're telling is that lots of bigots hold the same views as he does, well we could be agreeing there.

China's a bit of a conundrum, Stu. It's true that we've embraced China like never before. There have been times when every stitch of clothing I'm wearing, including my footwear, has been made in China despite the comforting western brand names. But it's hard to see how a country like ours with much smaller industries and (despite the best efforts of Thatcher and her tawdry Tory descendants) considerable protection for workers can compete with a regime with a massive workforce kept strictly under the thumb and no democratic rights to speak of. We connive in that via our extensive trade links with China. And it's not just China and it's not just trade in consumer goods. There's oil and there's weapons of mass destruction too. Ask the civilians of Yemen. We've all become experts in holding our noses.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 11:23 AM

I think that's about the best post you've ever submitted Stu, and that is more or less what I've been saying for years.
Party politics are indeed "idiotic", but they perform a function which fools and confuses people like Steve.

We must move forward united, and that means socialists and conservatives, if we want to construct a better future. There is so much to be done, that the current fixation with sexual and gender politics obscures the real inequalities suffered by ordinary people. The huge problems to be overcome in retaining a functioning health service, caring for an ageing population, providing a driving force for the employed which does not involve the widening of the wealth gap, constructing a response to Islamic terrorism, building up our infrastructure to make it viable in the immediate future and ensure homes for families to live in......and much much more.

You are correct to say that short term political thought has created this situation, but I see no sign of an alternative future visualised by the "liberals" who have invested so much in the politics of yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 11:39 AM

Bet you're dead chuffed now, Stu. 😙

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 02:44 PM

Ah yes - Ake the "socialist" - who wouldn't recognize socialism if it reared up on his hind legs & bit him on the nose.

Heil Trump!

Subject: RE: BS: War Without End, Amen.
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 04:15 PM

By 2050 we could all have 100% renewable energy, green agriculture, healthy biomes inside us and out, new materials, a NG space exploration, medical miracles and a 60 generation handle on global warming.

What is stopping us? It is the oligarchic capitalism and tax structure as Stu mentioned. What I would add is that Trump is the perfect storm that has thrown us off course. In that, he is the problem and obstacle to an ideal 2050.

Something bigger than a million Trumps will still continue to block our way. The criminal mind and senseless arms race. Religion and the other God businesses haven't made progress in this nuclear age. I see an independant growing moral center gaining stre without help from the old corrupt systems.