BS: uk politics

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:30 AM

"Is "indigenous" a racist word?"

Groan. We're not taking about uncontacted Amazon tribes, we're discussing a population that has as very varied and wide gene pool. For tens of thousands of years. In this context, "indigenous" is meaningless. Perhaps the alt-reich should use the term "white aryan fuckwits" instead to distinguish themselves from the rest of the human race.


"If not, please do not say that all leavers can be described by those soubriquets."

I think he is an idiot for abandoning the 48% to the likes of the Brexiteer hierarchy, who are proven liars. His decision to support reduced immigration is nothing more than a hamfisted populist attempt to please the xenophobes he lost to the kippers; we knew full well before the immigration provided a net gain in economic terms. As for being a little Englander, in his own way him (and many others in the left) are, but not because of the hankering for empire of the deluded 52ers, but because he believes in the sovereignty of parliament.

The real issue, and in answer to the OP is that no-one CARES any more about the integrity of our politicians anymore, they can lie (£350 million) and everyone gets on with it as long as the result is the one they want. Gove, Johnson and May are despicable people in a way, the epitome of the sort of people that hold our country back, narrow-minded and lacking in imagination.

That's not to say that Labour is any better, I don't think they are. Brexit has caused a tremendous rent win our society, and as for where this will take us, who knows? I have to say, I don't think the signs are good and I don't think that party politics is capable of providing the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:34 AM

"I ain't got a clue what you are babbling about jimmy. "
Sorry about the typos - did it in a hurry
I'll explain as simply as I can - when Teribus found himself in a loss in the past he reverted to talking down and insulting
As he finds himself permanently in that position, he does that permamnently
I'm sure an intellingent person who had any intention of responding to it would have been able to work that out
That is what you have mindlessly picked up on
Isis rose from being a tiny sect to the threat it became from the support it organieed by disaffected Muslims who watched as the West stood by and allowed Assad to slaughter his people - Homs was the breaking point.
Many of those who volunteered to fight in Syria became radicalised and Isis grew to the size it has become
You link to the opinions of Alasdaire Crooke (who has links to British intelligence and the British diplomatic service), which presents the musderous Syrain regime as heroes, totally ignores the fact that they are proven mass murderers, torturers and human rights abusers - a total whitewash of one of the world's leading war criminals performed by a supporter of the British establishment who sells arms to such people
What else is such an individual going to say?
THE HEROIC SYRIAN REGIME
Now - if you might try to address these documented facts (not opinions) without the insults and somewhat pathetic attempts to talk down, perhaps you might at least convince people you believed what you are claiming yourself rather than trying to save face in your support for this scummy bunch of war criminals
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 07:38 AM

Though actually, Stu, Labour now supports a transitional period during which we stay in the single market and customs union. That isn't even a transitional period. It's virtually the status quo. I have a hunch that it's a tactic to ensure that brexit doesn't happen. Like every other sentient being in the country, he can see that leaving the EU is going to be an unmitigated catastrophe. Let's see. By his fruits shall we know him.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 07:44 AM

Ah Jom. So no new "evidence" has "emerged" - simply your own wild imaginings.

Nigel Parsons - 01 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM

"Jim,
Maybe you should read the link you posted."

Unfortunately Nigel, Jom very rarely reads the links he posts, or if he does, he clearly does not understand what they state.

Love Mr. Red's take on the EU - to him it would appear to be idyllic - which or course it is not - far from it. In his view the UK is beset with insurmountable problems because we are leaving (And WE ARE LEAVING Mr Red). Funny then that for centuries prior to there being an EU we seemed to get on just fine trading with Europe and the rest of the world (The British Empire was founded on TRADE NOT CONQUEST). The points put by Stanron and Iains are valid and sensible. Of the BRIC countries you refer to Red, the truth is that they are no further down the track now than when the term was coined in 2001, the EU believes them to be totally incapable of any collective action, while there has been talk of trade agreements none exist to date.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 08:24 AM

Like every other sentient being in the country, he can see that leaving the EU is going to be an unmitigated catastrophe

No, he said that UK can be better off outside the EU, and he had no principled objection to ending the free movement of European workers in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 08:59 AM

"simply your own wild imaginings."
Has any evidence emerged of your
I invented the order
then
the order was never licenced
then
It was licenced then the licence was withdrawn
then
It was too early for the ammunition to be used in Homs
then
It was a private order for sporting equipment
then
The ammunition ordered was the wrong size to be used by Syrian snipers
All of these excuses and more wee put forward by you are to be found on the Homs Horror thread
Now we seem to be back to square one and I have little doubt that, should I be interested in continuing this "round and round the mulberry bush" game, you will be happy to go through it all again
Kieth's immediate response was "all you could come up with was a fewe sniper rifles" and later, "if only sales to Assad could be confined to riot control equipment - even democratic nations need to keep order"
The pair of you broke your necks defending sales to this monster and you both did the same when Britain was found to have sold chemicals capable of being used in the manufacture of weapons at a time when he was found to be using such weapons on his own people
You were given the press reports reports of the sale and you still claim I made it up
If you can prove the link I provided is a fake, please do so
I MADE NOTHING UP - YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO SHOW I HAVE EVER MADE ANYTHING UP, WHEN I AM ACCUSED OF DOING SO - BY YOU PAIR - I PRESENT LINKS TO THE CLAIMS I MAKE - YOU NEVER LINK TO ANY OF YOUR CLAIMS
You make all your claims based on nothing - that is why you never link and that is why you try to bully and bluff your way though everything
I suggest that unless you have anything new to say on this matter we leave this here before this thread gets closed down
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 09:04 AM

By his fruits, Keith, by his fruits. Check that with the vicar tomorrow.

So nothing in the world has changed since the sun set on the Empire, eh, Col. Blimp? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 09:47 AM

"The British Empire was founded on TRADE NOT CONQUEST"

The conquest and subjugation just followed on then?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 10:52 AM

Steve,
By his fruits, Keith, by his fruits

By the fruits of his Right wing you mean.
It was Watson who announced the new policy.
Corbyn said that UK can be better off outside the EU, and he had no principled objection to ending the free movement of European workers in the UK.

Stu says that makes him an idiot. Disagree Steve?

Stu says, "His decision to support reduced immigration is nothing more than a hamfisted populist attempt to please the xenophobes"
Disagree Steve?

Stu says, "As for being a little Englander, in his own way him (and many others in the left) are,"
Disagree Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 11:00 AM

Ask me later.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 11:03 AM

Labour MP Sarah Champion has just given her first interview since "resigning" from her front bench job as shadow women and equalities secretary.

She told The Times, "I genuinely don't know how I first knew that to be racist was the worst thing I could possibly be, but I somehow knew that it was, and that attitude stayed with me for most of my working life. Today, I'd rather be called a racist than turn a blind eye to child abuse."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sarah-champion-mp-i-d-rather-be-called-a-racist-than-turn-a-blind-eye-to-child-abuse-96s0fbm22

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 11:07 AM

By "indigenous", I mean people who were born, brought up and educated in the United Kingdom, or otherwise citizens of this country; regardless of creed, colour or religion.

That definition suits me fine, so you can take your "liberal" charges of racism and stick them right up your fat arses :0)

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 11:12 AM

Sorry, that should read "fat "liberal" arses"

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 11:23 AM

"Sarah Champion "
Comment on Sara Champion's statement from an Asian
"This language has parallels with the terminology the Nazis used to discuss "the Jewish question" and its "solutions". It shows how the horrific abuse and exploitation of young girls at the hands of criminals is being used to fuel and mainstream Islamophobia and bigotry."
The Sun wants to make child abuse all about race – that doesn't help the victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 12:28 PM

1:"I invented the order"

Never said - YOU on the other hand DID claim that Britain, as in The British Government, had exported weapons to Syria, and that those weapons were being used to kill people in Homs in 2012 - All of that was a lie invented by YOU, corrected by me and others.

2: "the order was never licenced"

Never said - It stated clearly in the newspaper article that in 2009 an export licence was granted to a registered arms dealer. The British Government per se sold nothing.

3: "It was licenced then the licence was withdrawn"

Perfectly true - The licence we are referring to was issued in 2009 - In 2010 ALL export licences concerning goods for export to Syria were revoked - Simple matter of record - look it up.

4: "It was too early for the ammunition to be used in Homs"

The amount of ammunition that could be purchased for £30,000 would amount to roughly 110,000 rounds. The Army and Police Force of Syria numbers over 300,000 men. IF, and it is a big IF, any ammunition had been delivered in 2009 and there are NO RECORDS to verify that it ever was despatched, by 2012 chances are that it would have already been used long before anyone was shot in Homs.

Jom, if you have other substantive evidence that proves otherwise then please post it - over the last five years you have had ample opportunity to do so and so far you have come up with absolutely nothing.

5: "It was a private order for sporting equipment"

110,000 rounds is a minute order for an Army the size of Syria's. Ammunition manufactured in the UK would be for weapons used by NATO. Such ammunition is of no use in Soviet/Russian made weapons.

6: "The ammunition ordered was the wrong size to be used by Syrian snipers"

True - The Standard NATO 7.62x51mm round is 12mm too long to fit into the chamber of Russian weapons used by the Syrian Army which uses 7.62x39mm rounds. I know that this means nothing to Jom who would never let fact or truth get in the way of a good rant.

You keep dragging this crap up and I will continue to knock it flat - takes absolutely no effort on my part.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 01:31 PM

"Perfectly true"
There is no record whatever of this order being withdrawn
The order was dated 2009, a year before licences were revoked
How the **** do you know that the order had not been dispatched
Stop making things up
The human rights record of the Syrian military long before this order was licenced - no self respecting government should sell military equipment to such a regime
You denied any order had been sent - you still deny any ammunition was sent yet you accept that some was in one of your many excuses
"Not at all Jim - these "sniper" bullets are now being used by the brave fighters of the free Syrian army in their tireless efforts to defend those Syrian civilians currently being shot by the Alawite bastards loyal to that murderous, Hezbollah sheltering, cretin Assad. As to them being shot randomly, I would venture to guess there is nothing random about being shot by a sniper - quite a deliberate process I would fancy.
Your arguments were a shamble then and they remain a shambles
Keith one the one who claimed "sniper rifles"
You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
You had no idea owhat had been ordered - the report never specified, yet you went to great lengths to tell us that what had been ordered could not be used by the Syrian army
Your defence of the licensing of this disgusting sale was, as I said, a contradictory, made up shambles from start to finish
Now - unless you can start using my chosen name (unlike you, I choose not to hide behind a pseudonym,but then again, I don't make permanently insulting posts that I wouldn't dare to make to their faces from the safety of distance and anonymity - I would consider that cyber-stalking) - I think we're finished here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 01:52 PM

By the way
The only reference I ever made to selling sniper rifles was
"The UK was still selling arms to Libya just four months before Colonel Gaddafi turned them on his own people, with government ministers approving a deal for sniper rifles, bullets and tear gas."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 02:21 PM

Yes Keith, and the xenophobe Corbyn is trying to please has a name, and its name is Len McCluskey. How that man can present himself as a figure of the left I have no idea, he is a creature of the far right, with more in common with Farage than Labour. Ian Allinson was the left wing candidate for the leadership of Unite.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 09:12 PM

Dunno, David. The far right and far left are, in many ways, not that far apart. Like two prongs at the top of a tight horseshoe. It's a little gap that real lefties can't cross, but it's one that xenophobes such as Farage find it easy to exploit. Gotta get to bed. Have you seen the time??

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 03:06 AM

So you admit that no "evidence has emerged" - Nothing has emerged.

"How the **** do you know that the order had not been dispatched
Stop making things up"

Simply because Jom if the ammunition HAD BEEN SENT then that is what your sole source of information on this - a newspaper article - WOULD HAVE STATED. It didn't it only stated that in 2009 an export licence had been issued. I have also given you very valid reasons why the sale would not have gone through. Issued to the Syrian Army those Standard NATO 7.62x51mm rounds would have killed NOBODY as they would not have been able to load them into their weapons.

By the way Jom, can you tell us all who formed the bulk of what became known as the Free Syrian Army? IIRC it comprised of former Syrian Army conscripts and deserters from the Syrian Army - Or do you have better information? The shootings in Homs occurred in 2012, the period of conscripted service in Syria is I believe 18 months to two years. So if you had been a conscript in the Syrian Army in 2009 when YOU claim these bullets were delivered then by 2012 you will have:

1: Completed your military service and would not be shooting any in Homs

2: Completed your military service and may now have joined the rebel Free Syrian Army and as such would not be shooting civilians in Homs

3: Been trained and during that training you and your 219,999 colleagues would have fired those bullets down a firing range during weapons training long before March 2012.

Your problem Jom would appear to be that you lack knowledge, you are blinded by your own views, you have no idea whatsoever of perspective, logic or reasoning. YOUR view is the ONLY view - well Jom, thankfully IT AIN'T - not by a long shot.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 03:22 AM

"The far right and far left are, in many ways, "
I really am not sure of any of this
Corbyn is faced with rebuilding the Labour Party after the New Labour fiasco, he has to seek allies and his supporters are largely made up of enthusiastic amateurs and the far right (most of whom were Brexiteers), still look on Parliament as a meal-ticket
Who is he going to turn to for support?
The old mob broke the ties with the Trades Unions, who were the founders of The Labour Party and who remain its natural ally.
It seems to me that there is a great degree of maneuvering going on here.
I'm a little out of touch over what's happening in Britain - ifs McCluskey really of 'the far right'?
He supported 'The People's Assembly', his stance on 'free movement' appears to be that anybody working in Britain should be paid the negotiated minimum wage and not be allowed to undermine negotiated rates.
His criticism of immigration appears to be that it has been allowed to be used to drive down wage levels, not that it should be stopped or reduced - seems fair enough to me.
Historically employers have used immigrants to undercut rates of pay, why should that be allowed to happen here?
As I say, I'm out of touch - would appreciate being filled in.
As far as Corbyn is concerned, I'll support him until he ceases to live up to my expectations
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM

Jim,
Keith one the one who claimed "sniper rifles"

In error, which I acknowledged but you refuse to accept.
There were no sniper rifles.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 03:34 AM

Bullshit Teribus
Your half-dozen contradictory arguments have remained exactly as they were - a load of desperately made up crap to excuse a licence that should never have been issued in the first place - you carefully shuffle around the chemicals that were sold
It has been a wonderful opportunity to put up your blue-arsed-fly excuses for this sale - I'd totally forgotten the one that they'd been sent but they were for someone else - classic   
"these "sniper" bullets are now being used by the brave fighters of the free Syrian army in their tireless efforts to defend those Syrian civilians"
You are a bumbling clown, your friend is litle more than your straight-man - you make a wonderful team
Have you ever thought of putting together a sketch like THIS ?
Would push up your entertainment value no end
Finished here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 04:07 AM

"these "sniper" bullets are now being used by the brave fighters of the free Syrian army in their tireless efforts to defend those Syrian civilians"
These are the same fanatics trying to impose Sharia lwa on swathes of what was a secular country.In fact, of the approximately 23 million citizens in Syria, around eight million are minorities such as Christians, Druze, Alawites and Kurds, who are represented solely by the government. At least a third of the Syrian people support President Assad by default. Many others support him by virtue of alliances with his support base.
As usual Jim you posr absolute rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 06:16 AM

Like two prongs at the top of a tight horseshoe. nice metaphor.

but for a better overall picture I was shown at college that a two dimensional graph was instructive.

left and right on the horizontal and tough upwards, tender downwards.

Not so easy then to see leftists crossing the tough bridge to the right (& vice versa), but maybe they can see each other over the horizon from the elevated position. If not actually shake hands.

from the Chinese insult (& I don't remember angering the Gods personally) - we live in interesting times and historical norms don't apply.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 06:17 AM

you guys are never any nicer to each other.

i just wondered - are labouring under the impression that at some point Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn will step up, present you all with medals, 'Thankyou for being extremely nasty on my behalf!'

A special one for Ake from Trump - 'The Irrational Medal of Honour'.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 06:41 AM

"As usual Jim you post absolute rubbish."
I assume you mean "posts" - "posr" is absolute rubbish.
Wouldn't bother to mention it, but typos appear to be important to you.
The sniper bullets for the "free Syrian Army" was posted by Teribus, hence the incverted commas.
I suggest if you think THAT was absolute rubbish, you direct your comments to him
Another rough night on the sauce? - I suggest a strong coffee and maybe an Underberg might do the trick!!
Doesn't make a hap'orth of difference to the fact that Assad is still a murderous twat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 07:36 AM

Pssst Jom - these are all yours:

1: Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:43 AM
"The BBC film showed warehouses full of shells sold by Britain."

Only trouble is there is no record of any such sale ever taking place, and I doubt very much if the BBC film you referred to had anything whatsoever to do with Syria, or about people getting killed in Homs.

2: Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 02:49 PM

The fact that Britain should sell ANY WEAPONS whatever to Gadaffi and Assad is a crime against humanity

Britain has sold NO WEAPONS to Assad.

3: Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 05:39 AM

"So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain - specifically for use on the civilian population"

Still say that you never claimed that Britain had sold weapons to Assad Jom? The above clearly shows that you did.

By the way, McCluskey as the leader of a Trades Union is looking after the interests of his members.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 08:01 AM

In haste.

A Pollwatch report said that around one in 15 Labour voters may have switched to UKIP in 2015. That's what I mean when I say that left and right aren't exactly poles apart in some respects. It isn't hard to see how a disaffected Labour voter, having been lambasted with fake information that foreigners are swamping the country, etc., would switch to UKIP. I didn't mean that genuine left-wing principles are close to the right, no matter how some people like to paint them that way. It seemed that UKIP gained a lot more from the Tories, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 09:45 AM

"The BBC film showed warehouses full of shells sold by Britain."
Libya - not Syria - read the note
"Britain has sold NO WEAPONS to Assad."
Water cannon, armoured trucks and tear gas supplied by Britain were used by Assad to disperse rioters
You may try semantics to show they were not weapons - feel free

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 09:53 AM

On that Homs Thread Carroll that was your trouble -

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus - PM
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 11:26 AM

"You have objected when it is pointed out that some of the sniper bullets now cutting down civilian men women and children on the streets of Homs (or went into the training of the snipers) came from Britain." – (Jim Carroll)

"There is not one shred of evidence to back up that contention of yours "Christmas" - still sticking to that "small arms arms" thing I see.

To pursue this fable of yours, into a thread about what is going on in Homs, Syria you have introduced by way of diversion and deflection - Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Zimbabwe, Tanzania and Bahrain - Where are you headed next Jim-Lad?? It won't matter because one thing is certain - Britain sold no weapons to Syria.

Your usual spittle-flecked rants get so incoherent that you completely lose track of what the discussion is about. If you wish me to - just to demonstrate that it was not solely myself who found your posts complete and utter nonsense - I can easily dig up what pdq commented on your posts, or what about GUEST 999 and others on that Homs Terror Thread?

Example

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:31 PM

The Russian 7.62 round is older in design that the 7.62 NATO that a private arms seller in England was authorized to sell to Syria.

No proof that the ammunition was actually delivered and the permission to sell was revoked in a reasonable time.

Since the rifles used in Syria are Russian design and use ammunition that is not compatible with the 7.62 NATO rounds authorized, it is really a stretch to blame the Brits for the atrocities committed by Assad.

Loads more Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 10:11 AM

The name's Jim Carroll Teribus
You want to carry on a discussion, use it
Otherwise go stuff yourself
I'm not in the habit of handling mindless adolescents
There is no longer a place for prattish behaviour like yours on this forum - it gets too many threads closed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 11:47 AM

Thanks for the laugh Al!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 01:26 PM

" it is really a stretch to blame the Brits for the atrocities committed by Assad."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415081/Britain-sent-poison-chemicals-Assad-Proof-UK-delivered-Sarin-agent-Syrian-regime.html


The UK supplied potentially deadly chemicals that could have been used in the chemical attack that killed more than 80 people, human rights groups have claimed.
In the 1980s the UK exported chemicals necessary to make sarin to the Syrian regime, reports The Guardian.
Sarin is an odorless liquid that is developed into a nerve gas that can cause excruciating pain to its victims.
In 2004, the then foreign secretary, William Hague, confirmed to parliament that the UK had exported chemicals that 'were likely to have been diverted for use in the Syrian programme'.
From 1983 to 1986 chemicals like dimethyl phosphite, trimethyl phosphite and hydrogen fluoride were supplied to Syria.
Did the UK sell sarin chemicals to Assad's regime?
William Hague found that certain chemicals used to make sarin were exported from the UK
The chemicals are ordinarily used to manufacture plastic and pharmaceuticals, but they can also be used to produce sarin.
Hague told parliament: 'From the information we hold, we judge it likely that these chemical exports by UK companies were subsequently used by Syria in their programmes to produce nerve agents, including sarin.'

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 01:30 PM

Ten
Nine
Eight
Seven
Six......

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 02:30 PM

we probably sold them instant coffee that they drunk before going out killing each other.
at some point people have to take responsibility for their own actions.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 02:30 PM

Been over this one as well Jom:

"The UK supplied potentially deadly chemicals THAT COULD HAVE BEEN USED [note: COULD HAVE BEEN does not mean WERE USED] in the chemical attack that killed more than 80 people, human rights groups have claimed.

In the 1980s the UK exported chemicals necessary to make sarin to the Syrian regime, reports The Guardian."

1980s Jom!!! When was this chemical attack Jom? 2012 wasn't it? I take it that you do know biological and chemical agents do have a "shelf life" - Don't quite think it extends to 32 years.

The chemicals sold to Syria between 2004 and 2009 were investigated by the BIS and all were accounted for. The amount supplied matched the items produced by the companies supplied - so none of it was diverted to make sarin used in any attack.

The Russians were supposed to have overseen the collection of chemical and biological weapons in Syria weren't they Jom? How did that pan out?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM

"COULD HAVE BEEN does not mean WERE USED"
"William Hague, confirmed to parliament that the UK had exported chemicals that 'WERE LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN DIVERTED FOR USE IN THE SYRIAN PROGRAMME"
Dyslexia still rules OK.
Any word how "these "sniper" bullets are now being used by the brave fighters of the free Syrian army in their tireless efforts to defend those Syrian civilians" ties up with No proof that the ammunition was actually delivered and the permission to sell was revoked in a reasonable time.?
REPRESSIVE REGIMES
Just curious!!

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 04:26 PM

At the time Hague and Cameron were desperate for an excuse to attack and overthrow the Syrian government.
If they had been successful Syrian would now be another failed state like Libya........you people are a real danger, the "FSA" was simply a grouping of religious Jihadists who wanted the secular government of Assad removed.....something similar to the brave freedom fighters of Libya who have reduced a reasonably successful country to a wasteland.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 04:31 PM

You can all relax. I have found a british sniper rifle allegedly in Syria.
One rifle could have been liberated in any number of possible scenarios
(captured?)
N.B. as the old saying goes;"One swallow does not a summer make.


http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=4055

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 06:03 PM

The largest supplier/only supplier (?) of weapons to the Assad regime is Russia (Two freighter loads every month). The AI weapon is described as being an "Arctic" Version of the rifle. These were not supplied to Assad by Accuracy International, a Portsmouth based UK Company, these weapons, or more correctly the particular weapon shown is most probably one of a consignment of these rifles that were sold to Russia:

"British-made Accuracy International Arctic Warfare Magnum (AWM) sniper rifles with elements of Syria's secretive special forces in Harasta, Damascus, new information indicates these British sniper rifles were most likely delivered to Syria from Russia.

While acquiring several AWM sniper rifles, albeit via the black market, would already prove a challenge for the Syrian military, acquiring these with the rare and very new pistol-grip skin would undoubtedly be beyond the capacities of the Army Supply Bureau of the High Command of the Syrian Arab Republic, which has so far limited its orders to Russian and Iranian sniper and anti-materiel rifles."

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 03:13 AM

Any reason they should "TIE UP" Jom?

They cover two completely different aspects of your idiotic and false claim that British weapons were being used to kill civilians in Homs.

The first statement:
IF the ammunition was delivered in 2009, or before all export licences were revoked in 2010, then YOU have no idea whether or not those who would have been trained using that ammunition would be fighting on the side of the regime, or on the side of the rebels. One thing we do know for certain is that those conscripted to serve in the Syrian Army in 2009/2010 - would no longer be serving in 2012.

The second statement:
The newspaper articles that you latched onto to falsely claim that Britain sold weapons to Assad states ONLY that an export licence was issued - NOTHING ELSE. Had ammunition actually been sent I am totally convinced that the newspapers involved would have reported that - can you furnish any reasonably sane explanation as to why they would not do that?

All pretty academic anyway Jom - Standard NATO 7.62x51mm rounds would be of no use to the Syrian Army armed, as they were at that time, with Russian weapons that fire 7.62x39mm ammunition. Probably the most likely reason that no sale took place. I can see that, pdq certainly saw that, and I suppose it registered with any other sentient human being who bothered reading the thread - somehow it hasn't registered with YOU - simply put Jom you cannot fire a cartridge that measures 51mm from a gun that was built and designed to fire a cartridge that measures 39mm - WHY?? Because the former will not fit it is 12 mm too long.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 03:43 AM

Meanwhile, back at the ranch Labour are practising their backflips, somersaults and usual contortions, Reported courtesy of that discriminating pundit Guido:
"Sir Keir Starmer amusingly told Marr "what's really important this summer is that Labour has got to a united and a clear position". Here are those three "united and clear" Labour positions in full:

    Keir Starmer: Stay in single market and "a" customs union during transition period, then leave single market. Transition has to be as short as possible, "could" last just two years. Or it "could" go beyond 2022 election.

    Tom Watson: Could stay in single market and customs union permanently after the transition period is over.

    Caroline Flint: "Totally disagree" with Watson, cannot stay in single market and customs union permanently.

Note that Starmer didn't rule out the transition period lasting beyond the 2022 election. This is Labour Remainers' plan for a permanent transition…

UNITES AND CLEAR................................?????????????

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 03:47 AM

You really don't get this, do you?
Personally, I don't give a toss whether this ammo was delivered or used - it's not the point and it wasn't why I put it up in the first place.
The point of all this is that Britain sells arms to some of the most vicious regimes in the world - not because it necessarily because it supports them but for profit.
Under consecutive Governments, Britain has reverted back to the old Empire days of poncing off the poorest people in the world to the extent of providing equipment to the regimes that persecute them and keep them poor.
British shops are full of goods that are produced in virtual slave conditions making modern Britain part of the modern slave economy
Whether this order was sent or not is totally immaterial - what is important is THAT THERE IS NO EARTHY REASON WHY IT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SENT - THAT IS THE TYPE OF BUSINESS OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES ARE INVOLVED IN IN OUR NAME AND THAT IS THE TYPE OF POLITICS YOU AND YOUR LIKE ARE HAPPY TO BREAK YOUR NECK TO SUPPORT
You have lied, distorted and contradicted yourself on this single issue - it wasn't sent, it was licenced or not licenced, the licence was withdrawn, the goods were sent but they were for freedom fighters, not for Assad, they were the wrong size, they went too early to be used - every feeble little excuse to defend one order.......
Utterly pathetic
You refuse to comment on the fact that a leading politician has admitted publicly that chemicals sent to Assad were probably used to a help create a stockpile chemical weapons for a regime that has used them on its own people - a point to be avoided, as far as you are concerned.
The relevance of all this to this thread that our politicians have implicated the British people in state terrorism and mass murder - that us UK politics today.
I don't give a shit who else deals in these predatory trades - especially as Russia is now one of the 'good guys' - part of the capitalist bloc - these trades are the domain of the wealthy who sell weapons and buy slave-produce goods to increae their wealth and to stay powerful, and their behaviour sucks the life out of the poor, and in doing so, destabilizes the world, making the dangerous place it has become.
The only value that you and Keith and Ake and the tiny handful of extreme extremists who share your sick views bring to this thread is as examples of the mindset that is not so gradually destroying this planet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 04:13 AM

It isn't hard to see how a disaffected Labour voter .............

What was that quote about never underestimating the taste of the public ?

Fakebook is the digital equivalent of the pub, without the alcohol. Or maybe with.

I was re-watching the BBC programme on The Brain. It re-iterates the well understood (scientifically) concept that we don't decide rationally. We (not me of course, not sure about you!) decide with a measure of emotion, then rationalise in retrospect.

Decision making has to have a measure of emotion, we can't function without it. And the kind of religion we call politics is a belief system. Ya can't take the emotion out of that! See any Mudcat thread for proof.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 04:20 AM

The only thing wrong with your argument Jom is that I can back up and substantiate everything I have "claimed" - YOU on the other hand CANNOT.

You opened this with your false and ridiculous claim that British weapons were being used to kill civilians in Homs in the Spring of 2012.

Tell us all in what way is Britain (World's fifth or sixth largest exporter of arms) poncing off the poorest people in the world while those nations in First, Second, Third, Fourth and possibly Fifth place ARE NOT.

"British shops are full of goods that are produced in virtual slave conditions making modern Britain part of the modern slave economy"

Simple solution to that one Jom - STOP PURCHASING THEM. The countries that produce those goods are all now independent, probably inspired and prompted by the heroic men of the gun in 1916 like you claimed. Independent means that those people are now governed by politicians they elected and that Britain does not have any influence over them any more, neither do the companies that place the orders. They can insist all they want with regard to wages, conditions, etc, but they can enforce NOTHING - only the consumer can do that.

One thing I do love about your rants Jom - It is always somebody else's fault

Strange that you can witter on at enormous length about the BDS campaign but you do nothing about "goods that are produced in virtual slave conditions" elsewhere.

"THERE IS NO EARTHY REASON WHY IT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SENT" - Well actually Jom, both pdq and myself gave you an excellent EARTHLY reason why that ammunition WOULD not have been sent. An excellent EARTHLY reason as to why the deal DID NOT GO THROUGH - the bullets could not have been fired from the rifles used by the Syrian Army - Or ONCE AGAIN have you missed that rather vital point?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 04:28 AM

While we're at it, I think it's about time you got a grip on your behaviour on this forum
Your arrogant talking down to people is now back in full flow – "spittle-flecked ranting" as I seem to remember your having accused others of producing
This is supposed to be a debating forum in which we express views without being bullied and spoken down to by the likes of people like you
About time you got a grip, doncha think
I suggest that, if you are incapable of controlling your own behaviour towards other people, the adjudicators who are quick enough to close threads when they get out of hand (often quite justifiably) nip the ongoing contempt you appear to have for others in the bud and request you to desist
If you continue to behave in the manner which yo permanently do, I really think there is no place for you on a serious debating forum
These are examples of how you permanently talk down to and insult people who have the temerity to disagree with you – from a thread that was opened four days ago
Jim Carroll

Any reason they should "TIE UP" Jom?
All pretty academic anyway Jom
simply put Jom
Really Jom?? What "evidence" has emerged?
So tell us Jom
vast majority of people in Syria Jom
complete and utter "Bollocks":
Really Jom?
So tell us Jom what is this new evidence - absolutely dying to hear a verifiable version of it.
Jom
Ah Jom. So no new "evidence" has "emerged" - simply your own wild imaginings.
Unfortunately Nigel, Jom very rarely reads the links he posts,
Love Mr. Red's take on the EU - to him it would appear to be idyllic –
You keep dragging this crap up and I will continue to knock it flat - takes absolutely no effort on my part.
Simply because Jom
Your problem Jom would appear to be that you lack knowledge, you are blinded by your own views, you have no idea whatsoever of perspective, logic or reasoning. YOUR view is the ONLY view - well Jom, thankfully IT AIN'T - not by a long shot.

Might as well add you most recent offerings
The only thing wrong with your argument Jom
Simple solution to that one Jom
One thing I do love about your rants Jom
Strange that you can witter on
Well actually Jom
Not bad for one posting, doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 04:46 AM

Jim, what have you gained by resurrecting a thread from five years ago?
Nothing except to be ridiculed, yet you keep doing it.

This thread is about current UK politics.
Please stop dredging up these old disputes when they have no relevance to the subject under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 04:55 AM

" but you do nothing about "goods that are produced in virtual slave conditions" elsewhere."
Now what was that about the Rooney clan of travellers and slaves in Lincolnshire recently?
Surely the backyard should be cleaned up first or is PC the dominant factor?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 04:55 AM

"Jim, what have you gained by resurrecting a thread from five years ago?"
Because nothing has changed Keith - if anything, things have got worse
I suggest that any ridicule is deserved by the suggestion that arms sales to a mass murderer who, it has been announced, will not be brought to book for his crimes, is "out of date"
Perhaps you can point me to any "ridicule" expressed by anybody other than the pair who defended this sale for my bringing this up - no? Thought not!
The subjed-ct you started is UK politics - UK politics today involves selling arms to dictators and buying goods produced under slave conditions
Are you really going to play your "thread drift" card so early in the game?
Desperate measure for a desperate situation, I suppose
Please stop attempting to censor a discussion because it has slipped from your grasp
Jim Carroll