BS: uk politics

Subject: BS: uk politics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:25 AM

These are dramatically interesting times for UK politics.
Lib Dems and UKIP are currently marginalised, but the EU debate could see them break through again any time.

The Tories have a knife edge majority and that only by relying on DUP.
They are split over Brexit, and May's leadership hangs by a thread.

Labour are also split over brexit, and their left/right split has just widened over their Scottish leadership.

So much has happened over the last year! Where will it take us next?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:44 AM

dunno about you...

it just leaves me very confused. but i always vote labour. i thought kinnock was a prat, who sounded absurd every time he gave a speech.

blair lied to me about wmd's.

jeremy surprised me by getting anyone to vote for him - looks too much like the birdseye veggie burgers target customer.

confused. i'll just go on voting labour.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:48 AM

The idea of Brexit does not seem to have been fully embraced by any party. It could have fizzled out over time by pure stagnation. However the obscene amount of money being demanded as our severance payment will likely give added impetus to our departure. Last year we contributed approx. 13.5% of the total contributions.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/316691/european-union-eu-budget-share-of-contributions/

The rest of the EU sells about £70 billion more to us in goods and services than we sell to them, according to UK data

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

How the Irish   border is resolved is crucial to the Irish. There are very few direct links to Europe. They also take considerably longer than trans shipment through the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:07 AM

The whole brexit thing is an unmitigated disaster brought down on our heads by that contemptible twat David Cameron. He thought he was sidelining his own vicious right wing and UKIP by calling a referendum he was convinced he'd win. Now we have the equally contemptible Theresa May who tried to sideline her vicious right wing by calling an election which, in her hubris, she thought she'd slaughter Labour. During her campaign her media lackeys tried to demonise Corbyn by linking him with Hamas and Hezbollah. When she failed to win a majority, guess what, she threw her hat in the ring with a bunch of sectarian terrorist sympathisers in Northern Ireland. The sheer hypocrisy is staggering. The people of this country need to learn that the Tories are the party of self-interest, and they will always put what they see as their own interest above the interests of the country. Whatever messes you consider Labour has got us into in the past, they were like Sunday picnics compared with what now confronts us.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:41 AM

I agree with Steve's post above and although I am firmly in the remain camp I am not as convinced that it will be as bad as predicted. Maybe it is just my natural optimism but I think we (the human race in general) are very good at making the best out of a bad job. I believe we are still capable of rescuing the situation. The best way forward for us to do this is the left hand path!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:53 AM

"UKIP "
I notice that raving neo-fascist Islamophobe, Anne Marie Waters fresh from 'Shariawatch' is competing for leadership of the party
'Bout time they stepped out of their closet and stopped being so coy about what they really stand for.
Maybe the Tories might invite her to step into accident-prone Two Ton Tessie's shoes when her party finally ditch her - what a dream-team - Anne-Marie and Boris!
That should steer Britain safely through Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:01 AM

Not even the labour party would touch her with a bargepole. That speaks volumes. Her past election history shows constant failure. Why on earth would the Tories want a born loser? Total delusion, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:14 AM

i suppose it depends on how you've looked on membership of the EU.

i didn't vote to enter the common market in 1974. i saw it then, as now, an American inspired idea to put a power bloc between it and Russia.

times moved on and Russia isn't quite the white hot threat that it appeared in the post war years.America has stopped doling out money - apart from defence installations - and there aren't as many as them.

I remember Alex Campbell playing out our folk club in 1978 - the year of Ally's army going to Argentina. He was telling us all about Upper Clyde Shipbuilders and how all the work would now go to Hamburg, thanks to the fine Italian hand of the Heath government a few years earlier.

Since then we've seen so many other industries go that way.

Now will come the abuse. Jim will call me a little Englander. Keith will call me a troglodyte trade union supporter - never let us forget Red Robbo. Dave will say that that the mprris marina wasn't up to much - forgetting that the the beetle had no legroom at the back, the renault dauphin and the renault 4 and every citroen known to man were rust buckets and the skoda estelle was prone to falling in half.

but at the bottom of my feeling is sadness for what losing our manufacturing base did to English society. THe fractured families and communities; the beggars in the street; the loss of working class culture.

just as Thatcher used the EU as an engine for monetarist reforms, whilst hating the institution for the decencies it extracted. I find the right wing of the tory party very uncongenial bedfellows.

Still I want out of the EU and they do. I'll do anything except vote for them.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:34 AM

Maybe the Tories might invite her to step into accident-prone Two Ton Tessie's shoes when her party finally ditch her
Another amazing rant.
She would be more likely to join Labour, as she has twice attempted to be selected as a Labour candidate (being shortlisted once).
Anti-immigration policies are clearly not just the province of UKIP and the Conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:47 AM

Seeing as someone sought to derail another thread this morning I thought I would tell you on this one that we are in the middle of a tremendous downpour, complete with thunder and lightening.

Sauce for the goose and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:05 AM

"Another amazing rant."
Why "amazing" Nige
Hasn't your party just done a deal with a party with terrorist links and bunged them £Billion of taxpayers money>
Your foreign secretary (nearly wrote sexratary) is a raving racist
It is the right with the track record of racism, not the left
It was the Economic Capitalist right that filled the extermination capps and massacred six million Jews (along with Left wingers and trades Unionists.
The Labour Party has a proud record of anti-racism - it was established with the help of emigre Jews fleeing right-wing European pogroms
It was Labour Party Members and Communists who took to the streets to oppose the Fascist and the police protecting them in the thirties
Despite enormous efforts on the part of the anti-BDS group, not a shred of eidence was proved to substantiate antisemitism in the Lanbour Party
Racism and bigotry is your bag, not ours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:12 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:47 AM
Seeing as someone sought to derail another thread this morning I thought I would tell you on this one that we are in the middle of a tremendous downpour, complete with thunder and lightening.
Sauce for the goose and all that.

Great!, Tit for tat interruptions.
Whoever you're complaining about Raggytash, you're stooping to their level.

Hardly helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:13 AM

By the way
It is true that 'New Labour' became the feuge and meal ticket of many right wingers - they were basically Tories who saw The Labour Party as a way up the greasy pole
I was one of the voters who stopped voting when thhey came into being
Corbyn has attempted to change that and will get my support while he continues to do so
When Labour was accused of antisemitism it launched an immediate enquiry
Around the same time the Tories were accused of serious Isl;amophobia - nothing has been done to date
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:22 AM

Exactly my point Nigel, in my defence the other thread is about pleasantries, this one was thought up to create discord, as always.

Now we will get squealing from certain sources ............

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:44 AM

If you have a thread about politics it is inevitable it will be divisive. It is the nature of the beast. To phrase a posting in such a way that no other view is allowed, to be deliberately provocative, or to insult the opposition is going to send any thread to the dogs, as is intentionally drifting way off topic. Some take pleasure in pissing people off unfortunately, others like to air their supposed superiority,
some get their kicks from honing in or grammatical errors or spelling mistakes. It takes all sorts to tango.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:52 AM

Racism and bigotry is your bag, not ours
Jim Carroll
This from someone who seems to idolise anything Irish, and hate anything British!

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:51 AM

Didn't take this one long to get personal did it :-(

I'll give it a couple of days before it gets silly but, as I said before, I am naturally optimistic. Maybe a few hours?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 10:25 AM

From: Iains -

"...to be deliberately provocative, or to insult the opposition is going to send any thread to the dogs, as is intentionally drifting way off topic. Some take pleasure in pissing people off unfortunately, others like to air their supposed superiority..."

Oh, the irony! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 10:32 AM

Dthe G
How right you were!

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 10:52 AM

"This from someone who seems to idolise anything Irish, and hate anything British!"
Neither is the case
I detest what has happened to Britain under consecutive right wing Governments and I feel the same about what has happened to Ireland under similar regimes
As for the British and Irish people, they have my respect and my support when they try to change the world for the better.
You confuse racism with a refusal to stick ones nose up the arse of the establishment
I add you to my list of invitees - I will happily make a generous donation to any named charity if you can show that I am in any way a racist.
As I said - racism and bigotry is the domain of the right, not the left
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 11:06 AM

All are welcome on the 'All welcome' thread :-) I am pretty sure that you will enjoy it a lot more than on here provided you follow the rules in the OP :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 01:14 PM

Without UKIP, we would be hosting 350,000 EU immigrants per year for ever......get down on your knees a thank Mr Farage who dedicated 20 years of his life in getting us out.

I remember you people, how you smeared and laughed at UKIP, well they achieved something momentous......none of the other Parties have achieved anything like it......In fact they ALL have adopted UKIP policy on immigration and still you're whining.
Roll up your sleeves and make Britain ....."Great again"

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 01:38 PM

And they would be brilliant. EU immigrants keep our NHS running, teach our students at our universities, care for our old people in care homes and at home care, and fix our plumbing. Would that we had 350,000 more.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 01:43 PM

Where would they live David?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 01:46 PM

Probably in homes that they would help build.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:01 PM

Who's gonna build thee homes in Poland or Romania, who's gonna care for their old people? We have millions here in sink estates, run down manufacturing areas, drug infested ghettos.....they need work and their children need work....real work, not short term contracts.

Never forget, unregulated immigration was an economic policy.
Not a fucking gesture of goodwill.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:15 PM

"I remember you people, how you smeared and laughed at UKIP, well they achieved something momentous.."
Fair's fair
THEY HAD SOME HELP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:20 PM

Slightly hyperbolic Ake. Free movement works both ways. And the way out of the sink estates is through education and training. Both of which EU immigrants help to provide.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:24 PM

goodbye FOX news http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/29/media/fox-news-uk-fox-sky-rupert-murdoch/

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:43 PM

I'm working on a job right now with two Polish joiners.....really nice guys, been here nearly nine years, they work cheap, labour only.

In a couple of years they are going to Romania with their wives and kids......they told me a house costs under 30 grand in Poland or Romania.

We need full scale training and re-training to do vocational work, we have too many bloody academics already....dozens of worthless degrees contributing nothing, a waste of tax revenue.

What's wrong with UK politics? "liberal" and neo liberal ideology.

David, if regulating immigration is such a bad thing, why is it now the policy of every major political party? What about the infrastructures of the countries from which the immigrants come???

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:45 PM

Like every other EU Member-State, the U.K. has had the power to control EU immigration at any time. However, successive governments of the Right and the Left have declined to activate the piece of legislation which governs such controls.

'Uncontrolled EU Immigration' is SFA to do with our membership of the EU, and everything to do with our own UK governments who, regardless of which party has been in power, have been happy to accommodate it.

Likewise, there has been little or no effort on the part of our governments to control non-EU immigration. Where do BrexShitters get the ludicrous idea from that immigration will be any more strictly controlled post-BrexShit than it's been during the past fifty years?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:55 PM

Deepest condolences "D"! 650 grand a years for these pussies...give me strength.

The "liberal" bias on BBC is truly sickening.

I'll never forget Jon Snow interviewing Nigel Farage "Well Mr Farage, you seem to be a bit of a black sheep in the European parliament......tho' I hesitate to utter the word "black" when interviewing you!"
Mr Farage of course ignored the remark.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:58 PM

"Likewise, there has been little or no effort on the part of our governments to control non-EU immigration. Where do BrexShitters get the ludicrous idea from that immigration will be any more strictly controlled post-BrexShit than it's been during the past fifty years?"

Immigration rates from within the EU are already falling fast.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:12 PM

Not because of any increased 'control', but because of a fear of an unpleasant welcome from racists and xenophobes, and a lack of confidence in the UK's future once the reality of BrexShit starts to bite.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:13 PM

Well if they are returning to Poland or Romania taking with them extra skills picked up in the UK, thats good. Everybody wins. Likewise if British people work in Europe, acquire extra skills, then return, thats good too. I get that you don't like academics, thats sad, but what is more concerning is that you don't seem to like education of any kind. So you would condemn the young people in the less well off areas to remain in the very conditions which you decry about four posts up?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:20 PM

Stop feeding the troll lads
He's not responding to anything anybody says and you are giving him a platform for his ARM-IN-THE-AIR hate
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:41 PM

Hah! The two Polish men I spoke to today, served their time in Poland, came here nine years ago with their families and intend to go back to retire!!

Pease try to understand that the playing field is not level, these immigrants are depriving local youth from training.....few firms take on apprentices, certainly not in the numbers which pertained when I got my papers. Now they go to an agency and hire labour "off the peg"

I have nothing against "education" providing it is of value and will allow the recipient to contribute to society.
For many years now education has just been an alternative to "work" for many young people.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:43 PM

Immigration and Emigration has always existed but until the recent past difficulties in transportation limited numbers and it would seem the wanderlust was more restricted. Irregardless(sp?) of the reasons for the restricted inflows outflows, today those constraints have dramatically diminished and numbers have increased. We have a reservoir of unemployed, a chronic housing shortage, an education system that is allowed to totally neglect those at the bottom and a social system that has allowed the growth of feral sink estates. Somehow these problems need to be both recognised and addressed, while also foreign workers.
But foreign workers are regarded as a force to drive down wages thereby impoverishing both the unskilled and crafstmen. Whether this is merely a perception or the reality I do not know, but the truth needs to be clarified.
Did we really achieve the desired result by encouraging 50% of young people to study for a degree while at the same time destroying apprenticeships? Cynical me would suggest all these young people on degree courses nicely massages the unemployment rate down while concurrently driving them into debt in order to make them docile sheep throughout the bulk of their working lives. Does this vast influx of foreigners merely just highlight some glaring deficiencies in our educational system?

    Time for our lacklustre politicians to start addressing these issues.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:43 PM

"Like every other EU Member-State, the U.K. has had the power to control EU immigration at any time. However, successive governments of the Right and the Left have declined to activate the piece of legislation which governs such controls.

'Uncontrolled EU Immigration' is SFA to do with our membership of the EU, and everything to do with our own UK governments who, regardless of which party has been in power, have been happy to accommodate it." - Backwoodsman

Thanks for explaining that Backwoodsman - It directly contradicts the following which must - to use Raggy's favourite expression be complete and utter "Bollocks":

"Freedom of movement and residence for persons in the EU is the cornerstone of Union citizenship, which was established by the Treaty of Maastricht in 1992. Its practical implementation in EU law, however, has not been straightforward. It first involved the gradual phasing out, of internal borders under the Schengen agreements, initially in just a handful of Member States. Today, the provisions governing the free movement of persons are laid down in Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of EU citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States."

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 04:14 PM

Oh there's fame !!

I appear to have got under Teri-towellings skin. I haven't posted to this thread for almost 8 hours.

Oh Joy !!

Have you looked at those Anger Management Courses yet Terikins?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 04:44 PM

href="http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who-does-what/more-information/explaining-the-rules-why-are-there-eu-rules-and-national-ru

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:52 PM

"came here nine years ago with their families and intend to go back to retire!!"
Pretty much the same as many Brits who work abroad and plan to return when they retire
They made a series about if forty years ago - Auf Weidersein Pet or something like that !!
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:53 PM

Well Ake's right about one thing.

We need to stop flogging a dead horse with school curriculums.

back in 1970's a Canadian teacher came on exchange to our school in Brum. Lots of kids from very poor backgrounds.

i remember him saying, 'your system is crazy - you keep on banging on with academic subjects with kids, long after its obvious that nothing in their background is going to help them get it. you should teach practical subjects - some life skills that will be of some use to them.'

of course after Keith Joseph and the national curriculum - things got even worse. children who could hardly spell simple words were required to be studying two foreign languages.

of course workshops and kitchens and all the things that would be required would cost money. involved in providing such vocational training would cost money. and you couldn't fiddle the expense with a huge paper trail - like previous investment in education.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:40 PM

The National Curriculum was brought in as an ill-conceived blunt instrument of control over teachers by Thatcher. She couldn't stand us, and our exceptionally weak attempts at militancy in the mid-80s gave her the perfect excuse. It came with a lot more than just a content-stuffed bunch of syllabuses that, at a stroke, destroyed the concepts of imagination and flexibility that are the hallmarks of good teaching. It also brought in a system of inspection, run by unqualified people, that was designed to be one hundred percent judgemental and nil percent advisory. It also forced an authoritarian regime on teachers that ruined the concepts of democracy and professional collaboration in staffrooms. Well, we've had all this for thirty years now. We have had no improvement in standards, a whole load of inept fiddling with assessment systems that encourage cheating in order to keep your place in the league table and a situation in which head teachers are leaving in droves who can't be replaced. So well done Maggie for setting it off and well done Blair for conniving in it. And a thousand bloody curses on the teaching unions for being so damned weak and divided. And I'm still a member of one of 'em and will be until they carry me out in a box. Education? Best bloody political football going.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:42 AM

The descent is complete. I was over optimistic with my first estimate. I'm out of here.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:52 AM

And then Labour came into office and put it all right again Big Al? Apparently not according to Shaw. One thing recent posts by both of you have shown is your loyalty to a political entity that has consistently let you down and betrayed you. Yet you both state clearly that you will, presumably for ideological reasons, carry on supporting them. What was that tale about a man banging his head against a wall and complaining about a headache again?

Thanks for the link Backwoodsman it only got me to a 404 Error - Cannot be found - you are talking about immigration. If anybody from anywhere reaches any EU member state and registers they can then invoke their freedom of movement, that cornerstone rule.

EU Immigration

The above contained the following:

"EU-wide rules that allow citizens of countries outside the EU who are staying legally in an EU country to bring their non-EU family members to live with them and to become long-term residents."

Basically what I have said above

The EU-wide rules are followed by 25 out of the 28 member states the three exceptions? Denmark, the UK and Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:52 AM

Big Al, I can't comment on any of the individual cases which you or your Canadian friend were dealing with, but I do think that you are a bit quick to write kids off. If they come in not being able to spell, that is usually a result of lack of parental encouragement and support, not a lack of innate ability. An attitude of "education is not for the likes of us". Kids need to rise above that and teachers need to help them to do so. Otherwise the "sink estates" which Ake rightly decries, will never get any better.

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:09 AM

"Well Ake's right about one thing."
"Right" being the operative word
This is primitive stuff - not too far from "coming over here to take our jobs and molest our white women" - the racist garbage of my youth.
If immigrants are working for less, so is every indigenous individual involved in the black economy (now referred to as the "underground" or "shadow" economy), reckoned to be worth £150 billion per year.
His claims of education, apprenticeship schemes and training are utter nonsense - apprenticeship schemes for what?
Britain no longer has an industry which requires apprentices - you don't need expensive schemes for stacking shelves in Sainsburys, which is the level of work many school leavers are being forced to take up in Britain's failing economy.
This is why youngsters flock to Europe to find work and this is the door that Brexit has closed - much to the glee of little Englanders like Ake
Higher education has been placed out of the reach of poorer families by the fees demanded - it is now the sole domain of the Middle Classes
It is estimated that at present between 4.5 million and 5.5 million Britons live abroad, that's around 7-8% of the UK population, around 1.2 million of those live in Europe.
Two years ago it was estimated that there were 33,000 Britons drawing dole in Europe
That is not caused by a few Poles being paid to paint our kitchens and hang shelves - it is the fault of a failing economy
It has always been easy to blame immigrants - that's what our establishment has always done to explain their failings, and that's what the rabid right has always fed off, like the maggots they are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:21 AM

"His claims of education, apprenticeship schemes and training are utter nonsense - apprenticeship schemes for what?"

I suppose we import all our plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, carpenters........................?

Subject: RE: BS: uk politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:32 AM

Jim:
This is why youngsters flock to Europe to find work and this is the door that Brexit has closed
This door has NOT been closed. Brexit has not yet been achieved.

Higher education has been placed out of the reach of poorer families by the fees demanded - it is now the sole domain of the Middle Classes What, no higher education for the upper classes? Obviously a preposterous statement. Also following the move (by a Labour government) to get 50% of students into higher education the numbers benefitting has risen, not fallen. The 'fees demanded' are, effectively, on the "never never" as the students will only repay the loans needed for them if they end up in very well paid employment.