BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 10:40 AM

Oh, and by the way, Iain's link is not only out of date, which it admits to itself, but was written by "an anonymous visitor." Quality stuff, Iains! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 10:23 AM

Well if that's the quality of links around here, Iains, I'm rather glad I don't bother with 'em. The item rattles on about the figures for Bude yet appears to give figures for Cornwall. News for you, Iains: Cornwall has half a million people, Bude has ten thousand and is on the very edge of Cornwall, two hours' drive from Land's End if you're lucky. Extrapolating Cornwall numbers to cover Bude is, to say the least, risky. We are not typical Cornwall round here. Incidentally, the piece confirms what I said, that the immigrant population of Bude is very low, which demolishes Keith's non-points. It's buried in there for your delectation (I tend to avoid quoting things that defeat my point, but then again I tend to actually read those things first, apparently unlike your good self 😂)

And, after your abysmal behaviour on this forum yesterday, I note that you still can't help being extremely rude. Just for once, put your point of view, if you have one, instead of trying to insult anyone who you think disagrees with you.

Keith, only half the immigration to this country, up to the referendum, came from the EU. Probably a lot less by now. Only half the population increase in this country can be attributed to net migration, the rest being mostly ascribed to increasing longevity. Considering that we actually desperately need EU immigration in order to keep our public services, etc., afloat, its hard to see why you insist on making this a brexit issue, or an issue at all.

"Why is that relevant Steve?"

Because you have persistently linked Bude's population increase to mass immigration, when in fact it has nothing to do with it. I wonder what that makes you. You've called ME names. I don't think I need to bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Stu
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 09:17 AM

"Net international migration continued to be the main driver, but there was also an increase in births and fewer deaths than last year."

So this is what you need to think about. The figures I posted related to Net migration alone, not variations in the number of births and deaths. NOT separating these figures is and using them to support an argument about immigration is dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 09:05 AM

Please remember that it was not me who complained of the problems caused by our ballooning population.
That was Steve.
I just pointed out his hypocrisy in doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:42 AM

https://www.ilivehere.co.uk/statistics-bude-cornwall-5899.html
The data is very easy to find. But to expect shaw to provide facts amongst his incessant scribblings is is obviously a step too far and destroys his narrative. And of course he does not know how to contruct links. (how very convenient for him) He demands facts and figures off others but is too idle to back up his own babblings with evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:39 AM

Net migration to UK drops to lowest level for three years.

They were at a record high 3 years ago, and every year since then.

Last year for instance,
"The population of the UK has increased by more than half a million - the biggest rise for 70 years - according to official figures.
There were 65,648,000 people in the UK in June 2016, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).
The ONS said that was a rise of 538,000 on the figure in 2015, equivalent to a city the size of Bradford."

"Neil Park, head of the Population Estimates Unit at the ONS, said: "The population of the UK continued to grow in the year to mid-2016 at a similar rate to that seen over recent years.
"Net international migration continued to be the main driver, but there was also an increase in births and fewer deaths than last year."
The population of the UK has increased by just over five million in 11 years - previously it took 35 years, from 1970 to 2005, to make the same leap.
Population change in the UK has averaged 482,000 a year over the past decade."

The source is the ONS quoted here by BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40372533

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Stu
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:30 AM

There are all sorts of issues with those figures Keith, you don't even cite the source.

For something more up to date, with all sources cited, try this: Net migration to UK drops to lowest level for three years.

It won't change your mind of course being a fact-averse Brexiteer, but we have to fight the darkness where we can.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:11 AM

And would you care to give me the ethnic origin and nationalities of all those extra people in Bude, Keith?

How should I know? Why is that relevant Steve?

"extra millions"
Hyperbole.

In 2015 the population increased by 513,000 people (0.8%), and that is typical for recent years.

About half of the people coming to the UK in 2015 were from the European Union. Recent data indicates that there are approximately 3 million EU citizens living and working in the UK. This equates to 5% of the UK population. The other half came from non-EU countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM

This is the time-honoured "we're being swamped by foreigners" syndrome, Stu. Keith thinks he can come here and say it in his own faux-gentle words and get away with it, whereas if the papers and politicians on his side even think of coming out with it they are, rightly, immediately shot down. The influx of people from overseas has helped to people our health service, tourism and care industries with willing hands. The rates of unemployment and benefits claiming by immigrants is far lower than in the population in general. People who come to live, work and contribute to our culture make an amazing contribution to this country, including via paying taxes. If there is a strain on housing and public services, it's due to the extreme short-sightedness and setting of wrong priorities by successive governments of all shades. One other thing, as Keith is presumably trying to cook up more stats on Bude at this very moment. I've seen the population of the town burgeoning in the last few years. Oddly, most, nearly all I'd say, of the incomers seem to be white working-class Brits. Hardly a dark-skinned face or foreign accent anywhere!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Stu
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 05:53 AM

"extra millions"

Hyperbole.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 04:47 AM

And would you care to give me the ethnic origin and nationalities of all those extra people in Bude, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 04:03 AM

Keith called me a hypocrite for honestly and dispassionately describing the unique position in the one town I know most about.

I did not.
The position in Bude is not at all unique. Services, schools and infrastructure are "overrun" everywhere.

The hypocrisy is that you have derided as racist anyone else who complains about it.

Where would you send all those extra people who have overrun Bude Steve?
It is not Bude that has failed to plan for the influx, it is Britain.
It would be impossible to accommodate those extra millions anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:14 PM

The two posts before yours say it all, Dave. It's bloody tempting to stoop to riposte insults. Iains has spent all day gratuitously insulting anyone he sees as his "adversary" (what does that say about him? It says to me that he needs help, frankly) and Keith called me a hypocrite for honestly and dispassionately describing the unique position in the one town I know most about. These people are not children, Dave. I know some lovely children, as do you. But the word "puerile" fits them like a glove....

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:14 PM

You don't 'alf attract 'em don't you Keith...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:12 PM

Keith you know shaw does not let a little thing like facts interfere with a story. That is why he will not construct links. He prefers ro live in blunderland where the bible according to shaw brooks no opposition. Rather sad really!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 02:24 PM

Steve,
I've described the true situation in the one town I know best

Do you deny that the things you complain of in Bude, overrun services, schools and infrastructure, can be found in just about every town in England?

Where do you imagine all those extra people came from Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:49 AM

"To blame it all on corruption and poor planning is risible even by the standards of our well educated scientist who knows nothing."

I have not "blamed it all" on poor planning and corruption. I've described the true situation in the one town I know best (though I don't live in it, don't spend much time in it and have no particular axe to grind). Now try not to be so gratuitously bloody rude for a change and get someone to read this post aloud to you, as you clearly struggle in that regard, judging from your abysmal misunderstanding of what I've posted so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:11 AM

I have spent many a day up to my balls in peat.

A phrase that often got misconstrued later...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: JHW
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:53 AM

A: 9.4%
Surprising though it may seem, there is almost 100 times as much peat bog in the UK as there is continuous urban fabric. Peat bog covers almost seven times as much land as all Britain's buildings.

Dreadful stuff for us walkers

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:39 AM

ww.gov.uk/government/news/housebuilding-soars-to-highest-levels-in-almost-a-decade

We must not forget that Labour started the stupid idea of selling off social housing.
And labour's idea of building replacement stock has an abysmal record.
The official data shows that the Blair and Brown governments built 7,870 council houses (local authority tenure) over the course of 13 years. (If we don't include 2010 - the year when David Cameron became PM - this number drops to 6,510.) Whereas the Blessed Maggie never built fewer than 17,710 homes in a year.

Seems the years of Labour misrule, and unfettered immigration, created the shambles we now find ourselves in.


To blame it all on corruption and poor planning is risible even by the standards of our well educated scientist who knows nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 08:00 AM

nothing to do with the overall population increase in the country

It is. Most towns in England have the exact same problems. You can not plan for an extra 500 000 people every year, you just have to stack them in where you can.

How sad for you that now Bude is experiencing it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM

What a load of codswallop. I described a particular situation in a small, remote town with limited infrastructure that appears to be the victim of very poor planning decisions involving the unwarranted intervention of central government (and not without suspicion of corruption). Bude town centre is becoming a hellhole of traffic congestion and woefully inadequate parking provision because the burgeoning population, by dint of an almost absent public transport system, has to pile into town by car, a situation exacerbated by the tourist season, and that's just one of the issues. My criticism has everything to do with haphazard, capricious planning decisions, in keeping with the sentiment of the thread, and nothing to do with the overall population increase in the country. Please take your silly xenophobic agenda elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 04:32 AM

Certainly Steve.
You complain about the effect of a sudden large influx of people in Bude.
Your medical centre is "completely overrun."
You have to wait for a GP appointment.
Your schools are "bursting at the seams."
Your roads are crowded.

These are the symptoms of mass immigration that most of the country has been suffering for years.
When anyone else made those complaints you denounced them as racist.
You are a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 05:28 PM

Sorry, Keith, I don't follow you. Could you explain.

Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 05:17 PM

Sorry Jim, I don't follow you. Could you explain.

Ta

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM

You missed my point.

the local primaries and our one secondary are bursting at the seams

Welcome to our world. Same everywhere Steve. Bude is far from the worst in Cornwall never mind up-country!

The reason for the increase is a massive estate of soulless housing behind Morrisons and a massive development at Binhamy Farm

Like every other town in Southern England then.

The road infrastructure is a nightmare

Not just where you live Steve.

The medical centre is completely overrun.

Oh dear. Lucky you did not say "swarming."

There is no way I can get an appointment to see my GP in less than six weeks unless I join the daily 8.30 am telephone treadmill, even then with little chance of success.

You have been so lucky for so long!

The cause is the rapid and uncontrolled rise in population caused by policies that you celebrated.
When others made those same complaints you accused them of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM

My children went to primary school in Marhamchurch. They had to go to the secondary school in Bude as there was no other school within practical reach. We do only basic shopping in Bude as we have to go to Truro very frequently. I told you that. Between the two of us we've had one GP visit in over two years. Our eye health is dealt with in Launceston and my hearing issues, bad back and any outpatient needs are dealt with in Barnstaple. Bude has a smallish Morrisons, a very small Sainsbury's and a small Coop (currently closed down). Oh, and a Lidl (sheesh). The small shops in the extremely congested town centre are dominated by charity shops and shops that cater for tourists. There is no greengrocer shop and just one half-decent butcher. The bakeries are basically pasty shops. Many of the people in those villages do what we do, most of their shopping in regional centres in Exeter, Plymouth, Barnstaple and Truro. The nearest ones are an hour's drive away. You may know where I live but you have to live here in order to understand how things are. There's no such thing as a rural idyll, though there is nice scenery and bad weather. I'll give you that.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

Does Widemouth have a school?
I know where you live Steve, and I also know that those villages are centred on Bude. That is where the kids go to school and where you go for basic healthcare and shopping.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Jim Martin
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:19 AM

'Raggytash' I don't think my neighbours here in Ireland would be too happy with you saying it is Britain!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:46 AM

I live near Bude, not in it, Keith. I live nearer to Widemouth Bay, Poundstock and Marhamchurch. I hope the bee in your bonnet about me and Bude isn't buzzing so loud that you can't take that in. My transactions with Bude are very limited (though I'm off to Lidl in a minute). It just happens to be the town I have a bit more experience of.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM

We are quite lucky where we are in that the government quotas for new housing have been exceeded and there is little effect on our village. Just down the road is different however and massive housing estates have been built with no thought for the underlying infrastructure. A little further afield, in Bradford for instance, there are swathes of derelict industrial land and massive empty mills surrounded by boarded up shops, empty health centres and closed schools. Why is this? Dare I say that the land is not profitable enough for the landowners to sell to housing companies yet? That they are sitting on areas perfect for urban redevelopment until they can make more money out of it?

Just my 2p

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 04:40 AM

And Steve was all in favour until even Bude felt a little pressure.
It is the people at the bottom of the pile who suffer most, having to compete for housing, employment and basic services.
The people Labour used to stand up for.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM

Alistair Currie, head of campaigns at Population Matters, a charity which campaigns about the impact of high population levels, said: "These figures for the year up to June 2016 reflect the situation as it has been for many years now, with net migration being the highest driver of population growth."

He added: "More people means more pressure on everything, from our food to our housing and from buses to butterflies."

He sums it all up perfectly!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 03:42 AM

And you think that is the only pressure on school places?
You have no idea.
And that was over two years ago. It has got much worse since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 07:24 AM

I've got news for you, Keith. Reception age is one age-group out of 13. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 04:31 AM

"In Cornwall?we have?235 primary schools, of which 227 have reception classes (with the remaining 8 junior schools); of these, 104 are currently full.? This number is expected to increase as late applications for places are processed over the next few weeks.? The number of primary aged children in Cornwall requiring a school place continues to grow, this picture is mirrored nationally.
Among the areas in Cornwall which are experiencing particular pressures on reception age school places are St Austell, Saltash, Helston, Falmouth, Pool, Camelford, Truro and Newquay."

Note, not lucky old Bude Steve.

http://www.cllrandrewwallis.co.uk/category/school-places/

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 04:11 AM

Steve, you have applauded the policies that have led to a massive and unsupportable population increase, and as soon as the effects are felt in Bude you whinge.
You want all those people to be housed somewhere else when everywhere else is already struggling to cope with the same problems, too many extra people to be accomodated.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:01 AM

Every town here in the SE has overcrowded schools, hospitals, roads and everything else

the SE is overcrowded. It wants more water from the river Severn. If that were a bank account it would be bankrupt. It is the metrocentricity of it all - London has to have, and those that commute to there live around it. Money talks. In an ideal world the there would be a more equitable spread of opportunity. To a lesser degree it applies to other cities and thence to towns pro rata.

Let's face it homo sapiens is the pollution. There is little in the way of solution there, IMNSHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 03:08 PM

Vastly upgraded.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM

There is a Truro and Kenwyn Neighbourhood Plan in operation which closely monitors new housing and education infrastructure, among other things. The two state secondary schools have scope for expansion and there was considerable redevelopment at Richard Lander School a few years ago. Post-16 and post-18 education is well provided for. The need for a new primary school was identified. The road from Carland Cross on the A30 into Truro, one of the two main routes into the city, underwent major improvement a couple of years ago. There is a long-term plan in place to dual the A30 between Carland Cross and Chiverton Cross at a cost of ?300 million that will expedite traffic that doesn't need to pass through the town and make the routes into town faster and more accessible (as long as unintended consequences don't kick in). The road at the major junction near the new Waitrose has been vastly ungraded during this year and last. The road running west from the city centre to Treliske is currently being upgraded. There is plenty of parking provision and there is a vast new park and ride near the Waitrose roundabout.

There is a plan and things happen in Truro (no doubt regularly shat on or diverted by the Tories). You won't find much of any of that going on in and around Bude.

As for healthcare provision in Truro and everywhere else, ask your Tory government. I know that my daughter would give you a more honest answer, of course, but one person living in one town is hardly your first port of call.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 01:28 PM

You refer to the infrastructure that existed in Truro before the recent and current massive housing developments.
Any new schools? Any extension to the health care facilities? Ask your daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 12:42 PM

I don't want sympathy thank you. What I would like to see is local infrastructure to be addressed before large-scale planning applications are approved. In Bude we are seeing a town of less than ten thousand having to accommodate over a thousand new residents almost in one fell swoop, and not just the once, and most of the development is on greenfield sites. We are not protected by green belt legislation as you are in your leafy Hertford suburbs. The lack of public transport provision means that a population increase creates even more traffic congestion. Apart from a couple of new roundabouts, nothing has been done to address this and there is a chronic parking problem in the town that fills the letters pages every week in the local paper. I understand that locals will generally resist big changes and that they might not always be right. But we are seeing central government overriding not only local council decisions but also county council decisions. Coming from the alleged party of small government I find that to be very disturbing. Eric Pickles' name is poison around here. Now I happen to know Truro very well. I spend a day there at least every two weeks, out and about with my daughter who lives there, and have done for years. It is a much bigger town than Bude and it has a rather fine cathedral. It has the biggest hospital in Cornwall and has a number of secondary schools. It is on the main line to London and has a reasonable bus service. The town is a major regional shopping centre. A town of that size has an existing infrastructure that can far more easily adapt to a growing population. Try again, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 12:27 PM

There's no 'impossibility' about providing the infrastructure to go with the housing.

Hospitals, schools, et al, aren't power stations, Keith. They don't take several years to come on stream. Infrastructure isn't profitable, houses are. We know how to build hospitals, blah, it's not like they need a new, innovative design every time. But there is no political, economic, or social will to do so, because they do not generate profits. The government doesn't want to build them, businesses do not want to build them, and the 'people' don't want to pay extra tax to build or run them. If they did, 'they' wouldn't keep voting the Tories in!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 10:15 AM

Truro in Cornwall is one I know of but I am sure it is the same all over Cornwall.
Every town here in the SE has overcrowded schools, hospitals, roads and everything else while building houses goes on apace.

We add the equivalent of Sheffield to our population every year but you can not build new schools and hospitals on that scale every year.

You will get no sympathy for the plight of Bude from any England dweller just now.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 09:20 AM

Easy for you to churn out that same platitude. I've given you chapter and verse of an egregious example of what I consider to be be poor planning. Can you match it with other examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 09:09 AM

Apart from the tourism, towns all over England are suffering the same problems as Bude, and the cause is the impossibility of providing infrastructure for an extra 500 000 people each and every year.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 07:15 AM

I do know that, Keith, and as I live four miles out of town I don't have to do nimby. But Bude is one of the remotest towns of any size in the country. Look at your map if you don't believe me. We have one small medical centre (try parking anywhere near it!) apart from one, maybe two, small independent GP surgeries, two small dental surgeries, one of which does private only, an inadequate sewage works, one secondary school (the next nearest is ten miles away and it's full, and the next ones are over 18 miles away), two infant and two junior schools, no major hospital within an hour's drive and definitely no A&E, a skeletal bus service, no railway within an hour's drive and a road system that bursts at the seams, especially in summer. The tourist season triples the town's population. The facilities in town have to serve many surrounding villages, some of which have had their schools and post offices/village shops closed down. In a nutshell, Keith, the town is expanding rapidly into greenfield sites in spite of its inadequate infrastructure, which planning never seems to take into account (which is why I suspect corruption, and in these little rural communities we're all living in a goldfish bowl...)

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 04:03 AM

Steve, those issues apply everywhere in England, not just Bude.
The population is growing by half a million every year and all those people have to be put somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:09 AM

yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.

meanwhile over at the seat of power - or did I mean throne?
theresa-may-to-take-personal-charge-of-government-response-to-housing-crisis-11364229301661

Now all that means is more houses. On what kind of land?
People seem hell bent on not wanting to live on hillsides, they prefer flat, fertile, alluvial land near rivers - until the river reminds them who's boss. And where were towns cities traditionally first set up? On the banks of the M1 of the day. Rivers.

The world-wide trend is for more and more people to live in cities (& towns). The only way is out onto farmland or up --- and after Grenfell? - Well - you work the double whammy numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Green & Pleasant Land
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 09:08 PM

But I do live four miles out of town and it's lovely here. Damn!