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BS: man's inhumanity to eggs

keberoxu 18 Dec 17 - 05:23 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 17 - 07:01 PM
keberoxu 18 Dec 17 - 07:21 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 17 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 17 - 07:56 PM
Will Fly 19 Dec 17 - 04:33 AM
Donuel 19 Dec 17 - 08:50 AM
Rob Naylor 19 Dec 17 - 08:53 AM
Rapparee 19 Dec 17 - 09:07 AM
Mo the caller 20 Dec 17 - 05:40 AM
Mr Red 20 Dec 17 - 05:55 AM
keberoxu 20 Dec 17 - 06:36 PM
keberoxu 20 Dec 17 - 06:46 PM
robomatic 20 Dec 17 - 08:35 PM
keberoxu 23 Dec 17 - 01:45 PM
keberoxu 23 Dec 17 - 01:55 PM
keberoxu 24 Dec 17 - 12:17 PM
keberoxu 26 Dec 17 - 02:26 PM
keberoxu 28 Dec 17 - 04:06 PM
keberoxu 11 Feb 18 - 01:41 PM
Senoufou 11 Feb 18 - 01:55 PM
keberoxu 03 Mar 18 - 05:19 PM
Joe Offer 04 Mar 18 - 12:31 AM
Iains 04 Mar 18 - 11:11 AM
olddude 05 Mar 18 - 11:31 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Mar 18 - 12:04 PM
Jos 06 Mar 18 - 05:03 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Mar 18 - 05:46 AM
Senoufou 06 Mar 18 - 06:02 AM
Senoufou 06 Mar 18 - 06:08 AM
keberoxu 16 Apr 18 - 04:19 PM
Iains 17 Apr 18 - 03:45 AM
Jos 17 Apr 18 - 05:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Apr 18 - 08:36 AM
Will Fly 17 Apr 18 - 08:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Apr 18 - 09:28 AM
keberoxu 03 Jun 18 - 03:12 PM

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Subject: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 05:23 PM

California and Massachusetts are in the cross-hairs
of the egg lobby -- do eggs have a lobby?

Massachusetts voters agreed to a new law,
in 2016, about only ordering/buying/selling eggs
from producers who were humane to their chickens.
Same applies to pork and veal.

No less than sixteen states are suing Massachusetts.

New York Times


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 07:01 PM

Around half of UK egg production is "free-range." I put that in quotes because those of us who are country-dwellers who live near egg production can tell you that, sadly, in most cases "free range" does not necessarily reflect that bucolic image of happy hens frolicking in the sunshine in flowery pastures. More often, the hens opt to stay in their overcrowded barns rather than venture out through the very limited popholes into the outside world. I suppose it's an advance on cage eggs, though we consumers have a responsibility, if we wish to exploit animals for food, to acquaint ourselves with what actually goes on rather than settle for the soothing words on packaging. And, not least, if you ensure that you buy the best quality eggs from proven humane sources, you'll get bloody good eggs. If you don't, you won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 07:21 PM

Here is a convenient sound-bite on said Massachusetts law.

Question 3 Regulations

The basis of the lawsuit is the other states' constitutional right
to cage or confine their livestock as it suits them, if I read this right.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 07:43 PM

That wouldn't go down well here. Which is not to say that we're squeaky clean...


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 07:56 PM

A "yes" vote supported this proposal to prohibit the sale of eggs, veal, or pork of a farm animal confined in spaces that prevent the animal from lying down, standing up, extending its limbs, or turning around.

Not really asking much, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 04:33 AM

It's not always straightforward to buy meat and other products of animals reared humanely, with as much space and freedom as possible, but Mrs. F. and I do our best. I like driving through Suffolk and seeing sociable groups of pigs outside their huts, and I detest cage and battery farming. I never buy meat from outside the UK.

It would do people good to have more connection with how animals are farmed and killed, if meat is part of their diet. I used to go fishing and rabbiting with my dad when I was a kid, and learned to skin and gut accordingly. When I was about 11 or so, I used to help out on a nearby smallholding - wringing chickens' necks. These chickens had run free and were well fed. I like vegetarian food, but I also like meat.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 08:50 AM

Rotating cages (18 hour days) of chickens for egg production are about seventy tears old now. In this case I will not correct spelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 08:53 AM

I used to buy all my pork and chicken from a friend who ran a smallholding with a 5 acre wood for the pigs to roam free and root about in, but he's had to give up pig-keeping and the chickens now, so until I find a better (more direct?) source I'm buying from a local farm shop.

Beef comes from a friend's mother who runs a few head of Sussex cattle on her smallholding.

Lamb and sometimes goat comes from a local high-quality butcher. I reckon most lamb is outdoor-reared in UK anyway, but the butcher assures me it's free-range from up on the Ashdown Forest.

Other stuff (venison, rabbit,etc) usually comes from a known source. Maybe not always a source that would be classified as pure, lilywhite and legal, but a source known to me, anyway :-)

I don't eat nearly as much meat as I used to, but do try and ensure that the meat I do eat is from animals that have either been reared humanely or shot from the wild.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:07 AM

"I don't know why you don't just buy your meat from the supermarket, where they make it!"
                --Lady waaay old enough to know better

Meat comes in little trays, covered in clingy wrap and and with a piece of paper underneath. They must add dye or something to the meat because that piece of paper often has a reddish stain on it.

I'm glad they got away from butchering cute little animals.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:40 AM

There have been protests against any proposed trade deal between UK (or EU) & US that would give Americans the right to sue us for regulations that we choose to impose on standards. Animal welfare, consumer safety etc should not come second to commercial interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:55 AM

They must add dye or something to the meat

There has been a "dust" that butchers used to make meat look redder. A practice as old as the hills. I don't notice it now, but when I first heard it I made a point of looking for the signs and some meat did look distinctly redder than it should. I think it was mostly used on beef.

I know no more than that. but look ye here


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:36 PM

Here is a report on one Massachusetts vendor
affected by the legislation.

farmers and the New England Brown Egg Council


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:46 PM

Comments on "interstate commerce"
relevant to purveyors of livestock outside of Massachusetts.

Are 'animal rights' unconstitutional?


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 08:35 PM

Check out story by Jack London: "The One Thousand Dozen."


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 01:45 PM

The opening post of this thread mentioned the states of
Massachusetts (recent legislation)
and California (did it first).

Here is more about the California situation, from the Los Angeles Times.
Hey, Congress - don't mess with California's eggs

In which the chief adversary is Iowa's Steve King,
Iowa being a big egg-production state in these lower 48 states.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 01:55 PM

... and then there's the United States Department of Agriculture,
at the federal-government level,
taking on national AgriBusiness at the level of regulations.

"Don't let them fool you"


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 12:17 PM

quote:
"...the Question 3 ballot initiative that passed by 78 percent --
which is not only the single largest margin of any ballot initiative law
ever passed in Massachusetts,
but also the highest margin of victory for any animal protection measure
passed by ballot initiative in this country --

[for example,] activists tried to pass that very same measure
through the traditional means in the Massachusetts legislature
for eight years straight,
and it kept getting stymied by agricultural committees.
[ . . . ]
Trying to get any new law passed at the federal or state level
that protects animals raised for food
is very difficult,
because each of them
has to first be approved by an agriculture committee
that is usually staffed with
those who are sympathetic to agribusiness. "   endquote

Here's the whole article.
interview with Executive Director Christopher Green, Animal Law & Policy Program, Harvard [university] Law School


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 02:26 PM

It kind of depends on who does the reporting --
some of the details change in the telling.

According to the Boston Globe,
it is thirteen, not sixteen, other states getting read
to ask the US Supreme Court to stop Massachusetts' "egg law."

The thirteen are
Texas
Utah
Oklahoma
Nebraska
North Dakota
Arkansas
Missouri
Wisconsin
Indiana
Alabama
Louisiana
West Virginia
South Carolina

(odd that Iowa is not on the Boston Globe's list)

The same Boston Globe Article dated 11 December
says that the actual deadline -- here's the quote --
"set to take effect in 2022."
That's their interpretation.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:06 PM

Wayne Pacelle, whose blog promotes the Humane Society in the US,
has a recent blog entry about the US Congress
working on a new Farm Bill at the federal level.

The anti-humane, pro-ag-business congressmen,
trying to block things like the Farm Animal Protection state law,
include congressmen from Iowa and Wisconsin.

By contrast, there are congresspersons
rallying behind the OFF Act.
Briefly, this act, which might get attached to that in-the-works Farm Bill,
would hold the USDA accountable for its collusion with the anti-humane, big-agri-business lobbies.

The people who are in it for the business
are not going to let go easily
or gracefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 01:41 PM

NEFA,
the National Egg Farmers Association,
is gearing up for a national meeting
in Minneapolis in March.
The "egg law" in Massachusetts
will definitely be on the agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 01:55 PM

We've had an outbreak of Avian Flu, and all outdoor hens have been confined to barracks in case wild birds contaminate the flocks. It may be over now though.
We get our eggs from a neighbour who has a few hens in her back garden. They have a large enclosure and are fed on grain. Delicious!

Here in Norfolk there are many outlets for home-produced meat/poultry, where the animals are treated humanely.
Our favourite store, 'Roys of Wroxham' sources all its produce locally, and the flavour is so good.

I'd like to see battery units completely outlawed here. They're cruel, the eggs are rubbish and it's all a disgrace.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:19 PM

WARNING: this link has gross-out sickening videos . . .
but I didn't watch them
so I can't confirm this.

The United States egg-producing industry has its efforts at legislation as well; in this article,
the pro-agriculture business is fighting back against the movement to restrict sales to free-range eggs from humanely-confined chickens on poultry farms.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 12:31 AM

My nephew worked on an organic dairy farm in Massachusetts when he was younger. Everything, everywhere was covered with manure. The cows weren't de-horned, and one cow was missing an eye - it had been poked out by another cow's horn. I've been to a lot of conventional dairy farms, and they were always clean and sanitary.
Made me wonder whether "organic" is always "better."
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 11:11 AM

Made me wonder whether "organic" is always "better."

Good for the seller, he can have a healthy markup on the back of "organic"

Organic Farmers in the EU have a bigger slice of the pie from CAP payments, but the system can be, and is, open to abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: olddude
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 11:31 AM

Well my amish friends are always giving them to me and their chickens are running all over the place. The brown eggs are amazing


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 12:04 PM

Free-range is equally open to abuse. Some free-range chicken farms hardly ever have their hens outside at all. Free-range eggs you get from your mate, as with olddude's example, always seem to be infinitely better than shop eggs whatever it says in the box. When it comes to eating quality, I've found that organic cabbages and spuds are always better. Can't say the same for carrots and tomatoes. Well-grown inorganic is possible and can be a lot better than organic that's been grown with insufficient organic matter or stored for too long. The cauliflowers grown in Cornwall are rarely organic (which cost way too much) but are superb when fresh. Calabrese is exceptionally boring no matter how it's allegedly been grown! A lot of organic stuff is grown in plasticos or polytunnels and doesn't get natural sunlight or ventilation, then is shuffled for hundreds or thousands of miles, often picked unripe and cold-stored. It would be nice if organic meant natural, but it often doesn't. And beware of terms such as outdoor-bred or outdoor-reared, neither of which means free-range. And that comforting red tractor symbol means next to nothing in terms of welfare.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Jos
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 05:03 AM

I believe that in the UK the Soil Association organic certification covers animal welfare standards.
I have always thought that the red tractor just meant the product had come from a farm of some kind, which would include factory farms, so not really helpful except as a marketing ploy.
I have seen eggs in a UK shop, in boxes that said the eggs had come from Kent (picture happy hens in a 'Darling Buds of May' farmyard). The eggs themselves, however, did not have a UK stamp on them - they had come from the Netherlands. They were probably shipped to Dover, then put into the boxes in Kent.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 05:46 AM

The Soil Assiciation concerns itself with welfare standards for organically-produced food. It may have things to say about non-organic, but its standards don't cover it.

My view on organic is that you shouldn't be able to call your product "organic" unless it's travelled a minimal number of miles from its origin, and food from overseas should not qualify unless that food can't be produced at all in the country of consumption (avocados or coffee in the UK for example). It's ridiculous that I can buy "organic" spuds grown in Israel or Cyprus when spuds can be grown in this country for year-round consumption, and I don't want to be crunching "organic" apples from Chile or New Zealand in June, way out of UK apple season. In fact, I don't want to be crunching ANY apple in June. Think of the air miles and the environmental cost of refrigeration involved in importing that food from overseas. That must negate at least some of the advantages of not using chemical fertilisers, etc. John Seymour, the king of self-sufficiency, in his great little book Bring Me My Bow, said that when he farmed in Wales they could grow wheat that could be used to make bread. He said it wasn't quite as good as bread made from imported Canadian wheat but that he'd far rather eat slightly worse bread made from local wheat any time. I think that's a good, sane philosophy.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 06:02 AM

I agree wholeheartedly Steve about eating produce which is out of season, thus from faraway lands. Part of the pleasure of good food is having stuff in the appropriate season. If one can eat it all year round, the pleasure is diminished (and the food is usually revolting, having been picked too early and travelled halfway round the world, then stored.)
We grow quite a few things in our vegetable plot and greenhouse, and most of our neighbours do the same. We all share the surplus, so one will find a bag of lovely greens, plums, leeks etc on the front step.
We share our Bramley apples (hundreds of the buggers!) and rhubarb (four crowns are too many for just us, and it grows like, well, rhubarb!)
The neighbours who have hens put the eggs on a little wooden stall outside their house, with an 'honesty box' for the money. The eggs are scrumptious, full of flavour and so fresh. We can see the actual hens, about eight of them, from our kitchen window, and they look perfectly happy to me roaming about their garden. I think they're Sussex reds.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 06:08 AM

PS Have to say tomatoes are a problem. Everyone grows them round here by the thousand; little weeny ones, huge beefy ones and everything in between. Far, far too many for anyone to eat. And there's a limit to how much chutney one can make. I cringe when a kind neighbour says hopefully, "Dew yew want any termahters mawther? Cuz we ha' got loooods!" But they are delicious and full of flavour.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:19 PM

So far I must be looking in the wrong places, to find further info
about the following news item.
This report comes from the Food & Drug Administration itself,
and the news media underscore the report with articles of their own.

The United States has had an outbreak of one of the more rare forms of salmonella and it has been linked to one farm's output of, as the report puts it, "shell eggs."
The above link, if you look at the page closely, shows a little map of the continental US. On that map the salmonella cases are documented by state.
What the map doesn't tell you -- it's in the text of the document -- is that the corporation that owns the farm is in one state, while the operated farm facility is many states away, I think the distance can be measured in thousands of miles;
if I read right, the physical location of the shell eggs, which were subjected to laboratory FDA tests and found positive for salmonella, was a North Carolina operation. But the corporation owning the premises has its headquarters in Indiana.

The other thing I could not find, and I looked for it,
was anything about conditions at the farm with the, how shall I phrase this, guilty eggs.
Inspections such as the FDA does, must consider conditions at the spot , surely -- it gives one to think, that that detail cannot be found in the reports.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:45 AM

There had been a salmonella warning on British eggs for 30 years, only recently lifted. No runny eggs for "vulnerable" people. But now permissible if stamped with a red lion.


http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2017/10/lower-salmonella-rate-results-in-new-u-k-advice-on-raw-eggs/#.WtWkRH8h3IU
B>
I do not think the old advertising slogan of Go to work on an egg would be allowed in this PC world, the RSPCA would start a court action to ban the practice, on the grounds of cruelty.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Jos
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:32 AM

I haven't seen a red lion on a British egg for a long, long time.
While checking in the shop that the egg box contains the correct number of eggs, I always check that the eggs are stamped with UK, and if possible, with an O to indicate 'organic'. You cannot always trust the writing on the box.


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:36 AM

I had an egg in the Red Lion. Pickled. Does that count?


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:56 AM

Who was pickled - you or the hen?


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:28 AM

Bit of each I think, Will. It is a Holt's pub :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: man's inhumanity to eggs
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 03:12 PM

What was weird just keeps getting weirder.

Now the state of Iowa has passed a bill concerning
the nutrition of Women Infants and Children -- WIC --
and selling them "conventional eggs"
as opposed to eggs from free-range chickens.

Caitlin Dewey, reporting, Washington Post


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