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BS: Another year, same old story
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: mg Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:09 AM there was no reason to upgrade barros in the first place when the people were very very vocal about the move, before and as it happened. same same pell. how could he? he is cute and cuddly like a care bear but has absolutely failed in his responsibility in this area. this was his chief job. he has blown it. they have fire bombed churches in their opposition to barros and he has him up on the altar with him. and i went to church just last sunday..oh..i didn't. i was sick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jan 18 - 09:19 PM This article is what I've been looking for, for a long, long time:It was written by a priest who worked in the Vatican Embassy in the U.S. in the 1980s. Very few "insiders" have said anything about what led to the awful coverup mess that the Catholic Church got itself into. It's the same thing that happens so often everywhere - politics took precedence over compassion. The child sex scandal was well-known by the U.S. bishops in 1985 - and they chose to table all attempts to deal with the problem. They finally took action in 2002, after the expose from the Boston Globe. But they had a very good chance to deal with the problem in 1985, and they tabled it. I knew about this stuff in 1985 or earlier. The National Catholic Reporter has been publishing articles about this sex scandal since 1983, and I'm a regular reader. There's a bunch of you asshole bigots here who try to accuse me of denying the wrongdoing or defending my church, but the truth is that I have spoken out against this shit every chance I've had since 1985...and I've spoken out where it counts, not just in Internet folk music forums amongst anti-religious bigots. I tend to think that this matter must be dealt with rationally and with solid evidence and not hysteria, but this is the one issue in the Catholic Church that has made me angrier than any other. There are some "good guys" among the U.S. bishops, but their voices were lost amidst the powerful people who silenced this problem from 1985 until they finally took action in 2002. And whatever the case, nobody among the U.S. bishops spoke loud enough to get anything done until the Boston Globe published their story in 2002. Then everybody jumped on the bandwagon. I don't know any victims of sexual abuse by priests. I have sympathy for them, but there is an element of reality lacking in my sympathy because I lack personal knowledge. Some of you asshole bigots will condemn me for that, but that's the truth. If you can't admit the same about yourselves, then you truly are assholes. But I do know a lot of priests because I was in the seminary for 8 years, and the vast majority of those priests have never had any thought of molesting a child. Yet, all of them are suspect, and that constant suspicion since 2002 has been an awful burden for these innocent men to bear. You asshole bigots may think that these good men deserve to be under suspicion because they are priests and that's the price of being priests, but that's bullshit. How would YOU like to live your life under constant suspicion of being a child molester, simply because you work in a particular occupation? As for the Pope and what he said about Bishop Juan Barros who's been targeted by protesters in Chile, note that the Pope just asks for evidence that Barros committed a cover-up of the crimes of Fr. Karadima. The courts said that allegations against Karadima were credible, but that the statute of limitations had expired. The Pope did not deny the crimes committed by Karadima. The court said nothing about Barros, and the evidence against Barros is very sketchy. So, for now, I agree with the Pope. Until there's evidence, there's no reason to take action against Bishop Barros. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM Quite a bit better, Greg. Still, it's important to read the whole article, and not just the headline. The Pope said the accusers are guilty of slander IF they fail to produce evidence against the bishop. There is no question about the guilt of the priest who molested the victims. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM OK, Joe, lets restate it like this: --- Pope Francis Stands Behind Bishop Who Victims Claim Protected A Pedophile Priest Chilean sex abuse victims of a pedophile priest were stunned Thursday when Pope Francis accused them of slander. The pope’s visit to Chile was supposed to begin a healing process between the Catholic Church and the victims of Rev. Fernando Karadima. Instead, Francis accused the victims of slandering a bishop they claimed had protected the priest. At least one of Karadima’s victims said Bishop Juan Barros watched while he was abused. A number of parishioners have accused Karadima of sexually assaulting them when they were teens, beginning in the 1980s. In 2011, the church “sentenced” the cleric to a lifetime of penance and prayer for his sins. A judge also found charges against Karadima credible. But too much time had elapsed since the crimes, and the authorities were unable to file criminal charges against him. Although victims and victims rights advocates have attacked Barros for allegedly covering up for Karadima, the Vatican has continued to embrace the controversial bishop. In 2015, Pope Francis appointed Barros to head the diocese of Osorno in south-central Chile. The Pope's comments immediately set off a backlash, with abuse victims speaking out on Twitter and elsewhere, with many saying the statement echoed the skepticism and denial that had met with their claims. One victim, Juan Carlos Cruz, replied, "As if one could have taken a selfie or photo while Karadima abused me and others" while Barros stood by." Adding to the drama, the exchange took place one week after the Associated Press reportedl that Francis had written a letter in January of 2015 about the Vatican's attempt to cope with the fallout from Karadima. In it, the agency said, Francis acknowledged the controversy around Barros and referred to a previous plan to ask for Barros' resignation. The church is losing its influence in the nation, Reuters reported. A new poll by Santiago-based think tank Latinobarometro showed that the number of Chileans calling themselves Catholics fell from 74 percent in 1995 to 45 percent last year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Senoufou Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM It's a pity that the Statute of Limitations applied here. If it didn't, the victims could give evidence in court that Juan Barros was indeed present and complicit. But to accuse the victims of calumny is wrong. The Pope can have no idea either way. He could only be justified in calling them liars if it could be proved in a court of law that they had in fact lied. It isn't surprising that Catholics in Chile are less numerous - I expect they're thoroughly disillusioned and disgusted with this state of affairs. It would seem that 'no lessons have been learned'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM Judge not, il Papa... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:38 AM One could restate that news story in a different way. the protesters had targeted a particular bishop and accused the bishop of a cover-up. the pope said that unless the protesters have evidence against the bishop, they are guilty of slander. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM Associated Press - January 18, 2018 Pope Francis accused victims of Chile's most notorious pedophile of slander Thursday, an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: keberoxu Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM Does God answer prayer? Just went past the bulletin board with the notice that started my inquiry. Someone took a ballpoint pen and wrote across the Kevin Annett lecture date: RESCHEDULED |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: keberoxu Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM Since Raggytash responded to my contribution (page 2 if you're doing pages) by consulting the Wiki, I will bring this full circle. Here are two different parts of the WikiVerse with contrasting presentations on the Kevin Annett attention-getting campaign (sadly I think that's the most authentic thing about him, that he craves attention) RationalWiki: Pseudolaw Wikispooks: whistleblower, activist, writer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM HERE The Americas have historically been the location of the worst collusion between the church and State terrorism This news item appears to have neatly slipped under the wire on this side of the Pond Thanks MG Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: mg Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM go to abuse tracker. read what is going on in peru and chile and the pope's visit. the pope has been extremely ..somewhere between negligent and culpable on this issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:32 AM Interesting statement from an interesting source, from this morning's Irish Times BISHOP SAYS DANGER OF CHILD ABUSE IS TO BELIEVE THE WORST IS OVER A Catholic bishop has said that ignorance about the effects of child abuse in the past compounded its harmful effects on the lives of many young and vulnerable people. "People of my generation began our adult lives with almost no awareness of the pervasiveness and impact of abuse in our society and in all societies," the Catholic Bishop of Limerick Brendan Leahy said. "As a consequence, failure to recognise and respond appropriately to the complex issues which abuse presents, has at times compounded the profound and harmful impact on the lives of many young and vulnerable persons," he said. "In recent weeks, millions have joined the social media conversation using the hashtag #MeToo, or its equivalent, on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram; women and men denouncing harmful sexual experiences. Many are revealing for the first time, via social media, their own stories. While the majority of those sharing #MeToo stories are adult women, a large number of the shared stories reveal sexual abuse that began when they were minors," he said. Safeguarding Initially, in trying to tackle abuse issues in the past, "we began speaking about child protection. Today we speak instead of safeguarding, because safeguarding is a concept that reaches beyond protection, responding not only to problems which have occurred but incorporates the prevention of harm and the promotion of welfare. "Safeguarding also extends beyond children to include people of all ages and abilities who may have vulnerabilities which expose them to a risk of abuse," he said. Collaboration Bishop Leahy was speaking at Mary Immaculate College in Limerick at a conference on "Building Collaboration in Safeguarding" organised by Limerick diocese in association with An Garda Siochana, Tusla and the HSE. Attendees included representatives from statutory, voluntary and educational sectors, as well as various faith organisations. "The greatest danger for us is that we might relax and believe that the worst is in some way behind us. To take this view would be a profound error which would compound the historical failures," he said. From his own meetings with victims he was critically aware of its impact "on all dimensions of their lives and there are no quick or simple solutions to what are sometimes their lifelong struggles. "I am also very conscious of the strain on people working in voluntary organisations as they struggle with what at times seem to be enormous limitations on resources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: keberoxu Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM My earlier posts about Rev. Kevin Annett referenced The Tyee, and Gnu. I haven't heard from Gnu about Annett. But here is the link to The Tyee. This article goes back almost ten years. Terry Glavin on Kevin Annett As posted before, I'm not going to the Kevin Annett presentation in the Greater Boston Metro area, advertised for this month. The issues in which Annett is invested are important, and they ought to be addressed regardless of his position. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM "You and Jim both support BDS, a view too extreme for any UK party or any Liberal Democracy to espouse." So extremism is to be judged by what political parties, including extremist ones, support and don't support The classical definition of fascism is to place the actions of the state above the aspirations of the people BDS is not extreme - if it was, any boycott would he an extremist act, such as that against Apartheid South Africa Remind us how many decades Anerica boycotted Cuban goods or how long the blockade of Palestine by Israel has been in place? Utter nonsense Human rights groups and decent people throughout the world support action against Israel for its terrorist behaviour - I saw an exhibition of photographs yesterday in our County Town arts centre showing how the authorities have closed down an entire area of Muslim shops in the centre of Jerusalem You manic attack on the Labour party is a perfect illustration of another example of religion being used to carry out abuse "I discussed anti-Semitism within Labour. No other party has had such issues in recent years." Most religions have been incorporated into the establishment and many of them, Christianity especially, have become spokesmen for some of the most extreme right wing Governments and groups on the planet - Fascist Spain and Chile, Fascist dictatorships in South America - the Dutch Reform Church was a solid supporter of the South African regime.... the list is very impressive No other Party has had such a problem - are you joking? Ukip based their activities on Islamophobia and swung the vote on Brexit on a racist ticket The vice chairman of an even more extreme anti Semitic and Islamophobic offshoot of Ukip it to be put on trial in Belfast for racist activities The Northern Ireland Unionist Government was established on the basis of dividing an entire State into two religious factions and making one of those less influential than the other. In contrast - only two members of the Labour party, Livingstone and Shah, were accused of directly involving Jewish people in their criticism of Israel - one apologised for a youthful indiscretion - the other simply told the truth at the wrong time. Yet all the other things I have mentioned rate as less important as these two cases That must signify something I have no intention of responding to your inevitable denials Keith - New Year resolution and all that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM I don't care what you think, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Mr Red Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM Same old story The chosen few addressing the person instead of the issue. Reading into instead of reading. Roll on 2019, it will be all different then. Please! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM Steve, I am sure you are a lovely family man, but your political views are extreme. You are happy to describe yourself as "Far Left." That is extreme. You and Jim both support BDS, a view too extreme for any UK party or any Liberal Democracy to espouse. (Guardian, "Jeremy Corbyn would be happy to buy goods from Israel and does not support a blanket boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) policy) When all your group are dominating a thread you posture as if your extreme views are mainstream, while marginalising and ridiculing anyone expressing actual mainstream views. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Greg F. Date: 10 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM Said it yesterday, bears repeating today: Or more likely, not. |
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Subject: the Rev. Kevin Annett From: keberoxu Date: 10 Jan 18 - 01:21 PM Thanks, Steve. I figured nobody was listening before you posted just now. A couple of things to consider. Ronald Ross Annett has life-year dates 1895 - 1988, think I got those right. His birthplace was Ontario. When the Great War happened, R. Ross Annett enlisted. He was at Vimy Ridge, no less -- something called "the pimple" ?! This Annett, as you can see from his dates, survived, although he was wounded in action and I believe wounded so as to be lamed. Something about his hip. R. Ross Annett left Canada for the United States, where he submitted stories to the Saturday Evening Post about life in farm country in the province of Alberta. I have yet to read any of these stories. If I hear right, the characters are fictional but based on childhood experience. Of his wartime experience, it seems, he never wrote. The Saturday Evening Post stories made R. Ross Annett a Who's-Who type celebrity; to this day there is a literary award, in Canada, with his name on it, but I don't know who established the award or endowed/financed it. I know of three sons from Ronald Ross Annett, perhaps there were other children. William S. Annett, at latest report, is in his eighties and living in Florida, from where, for a number of years, he has written articles which appear online. Jack Dunning Annett's dates are 1925 - 2011, according to an online obituary page for a periodical from the city?/town? of Consort, Alberta. This man's remains were to be interred in Consort. While Jack was born in the United States, his childhood, according to this obituary, took him to Consort and he spent his growing-up years in Alberta. Although he, too, had a lifelong love of literature and writing, he made his profession as an architect. There is nothing in his obituary about whether or not he was ever in the armed forces. His brother Bill is named among the "survivors" in the obituary. His parents are acknowledged by name. Oh! Here's the answer to my question. Besides William S. Annett, the surviving brother, the Consort, Alberta obituary (looking at it now) says that Jack Dunning Annett was predeceased by, amongst others, "brothers Bob and Ron and sister Carol." So that totals five children of Ronald Ross Annett. One of those two brothers was killed in action during World War II. Ah! Just found him I think -- online now in another "tab." The year before Jack Dunning Annett was born in the US, this brother arrived, also born in the US: Robert Ivan Loucks Annett, 1924 - 1944. The name "Loucks" comes from the ancestry of his mother, Lenora or "Lennye," wife of R. Ross Annett. A military cemetery in Western Europe is his final resting place. France maybe? Oh dearie me. I don't want to write anything more about William S. "Bill" Annett. Most of what I could find out about him is written by him, and it smells . . . it just plain smells. I don't want to repeat it here, honestly. If you are curious, you can put the search engine through its paces and look for it yourself. Well, suffice to underline that Bill Annett takes journalism and writing very personally, and is highly opinionated. Grandstanding, that's Steve's word above, is easily discerned in Bill Annett's opinions and convictions. I could print some of them here. I won't though. I know of two sons of William S. Annett. One of them is his namesake. The other is Kevin Daniel Annett, ordained by the United Church of Canada and disbarred, it appears, by same in 1995. Kevin Annett strikes me as a frustrated journalist, ministerial ordination or no; notoriety is more than useful to him, I fear he craves it somehow. Ach, enough for now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:42 PM Keberoxu, Kevin Annett has made himself into an extremely controversial figure. After a lot of googling I can't get my head round it and don't know whether I should be siding with him or not. Whatever his motivations are, his tactical sense is questionable. The sword of truth requires directness and a reining in of emotional grandstanding. The latter is the quickest way to get your adversaries to set to work on you as a person rather than face the accusations against them. He may be right but he doesn't appear to be doing it right. I'll keep looking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM Or even Seville! Mrs Steve got 'em yesterday in Lansdown Dairy in Bude. The marmalade is now potted and the house smells great. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: keberoxu Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM Oranges. I GIVE UP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM Or even Saville Oranges come to that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM Where do you get Savile oranges at this time of year? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: keberoxu Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM Said it yesterday, bears repeating today: Carry on, if you wish, with that which fuels your fire. My series of posts need not concern you, as I'm not interested in getting personal. Bit of a lost cause, this is. The Rev. Kevin Annett, THAT's the correct spelling of his real name. My posts of 9 January consistently misspell his last name as Arnett, and that is incorrect. But who cares ... maybe Kevin Annett cares, maybe his father William S. Annett cares, but their years in the public eye, and their messages and what they have to say, never mind what has been done to others, none of that interests in the slightest those of you who are busy dancing the dance with each other. Why do I even bother. Maybe the Annett noises interest Raggytash a little bit. Everyone else has better things to do. After my two posts on this subject -- misspelled names and all -- my online searches continued apace. I found some things that made me freeze. And it wasn't what you think. It wasn't the topics on which Kevin Annett has raised his voice since roughtly 1995. It was the relationship between a father in his eighties, and his adult son. That absolutely hit me where it hurts. It hit home harder than all of the stories about Canadian atrocities. Because, as I said before, but for the grace of ***, there go I. That father-son pairing, the things they say about each other and the world they live in, on line and for everybody else to read, there is much to ponder there. Would a separate thread be better suited to such disclosures? Why bother posting any of it here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM Happily married for 41 years, mortgage for most of 'em, two kids who went to local schools who both grew up dead nice, played Irish on gobiron down t'pub 'til started to go deaf, beaten up Ford Focus, Mrs Steve making marmalade in kitchen this very minute, fan of Liverpool FC, been out to Lidl for me veg this morning then B&M for me wild bird food, fly Easyjet for me hols, vote Labour (only political organisation I've ever been a member of)... Yeah, meet Mr Extremist! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM Keith - yes that's right innit... ...you're the mainstream and everyone who disagrees is an organised red under the bed conspiracist threat to normality, and should all be sent packing back to Russia...!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:27 AM SADGIT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM See what I mean Steve !!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:20 AM Rag, PMs are available. If you post a comment on the forum, anyone is entitled to respond whoever you address it to. Childish name calling, so typical of your group, does not alter that fact. You form a group of posters who dominate certain threads. You all hold almost identical views and support each other while all attacking anyone who puts a differing view. Politically your views are at the extreme end of the spectrum, but here you can posture as if you are mainstream, marginalising and ridiculing anyone who disagrees. Your behaviour discourages decent people with mainstream views from contributing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM THIS POST IS ADDRESSED TO STEVE SHAW ONLY. The wazzock can't even get it into his head that you, I and some other people are not an organised gang Steve. If he can't grasp that simple concept you have bugger all chance with anything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM I'm past caring, Keith. We know you only too well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM Hey, kind Mr/Ms Moderator sir/madam, would you please delete that last post of mine as it clearly has no place in this thread. Naturally, it's Mr Red's fault that it's here. Now that we have a dedicated footie thread I've copied and pasted it over there. I thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:44 AM Steve, I know Joe's remark was directed at Rag, but it applies to you also. You may have referred to other kinds of offenders here but you have never criticised any group but clerics. I do not lie. What you said about me is not true. I discussed anti-Semitism within Labour. No other party has had such issues in recent years. I may have put Israel's side of the story when I felt it was being unfairly criticised by your group, but I have never singled out Palestinians for criticism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM Football non-fans constantly attacking football for being tribal is, ironically, tribal. So you don't like football. Well a lot of people do. A couple of years ago I tried, months in advance, to get a ticket for a relatively humdrum, non-crucial home match at Anfield (Liverpool vs Villa). No chance. There a lot wrong with football. Players' pay at the top of the game is scandalous. Most league footballers don't get tens of thousands a week, however. We tend to dwell on the most egregious examples, which are actually a small minority. Ticket prices are outlandish in consequence (though you'd pay approximately as much for a decent seat at the opera or for a symphony concert). There's far too much corporate involvement. Some top clubs are bankrolled by billionaires who can buy or sell clubs at will and that's not really fair. Transfer fees at the top are ludicrous, and they are boosted further by parasitic agents taking huge slices of dosh. Television rights are bought for billions a year. We all pay for that eventually via advertising, even though you have to pay to see the matches on the telly. Which I do. But wassup? It's a perfect example of capitalism in action. So is Tesco, Asda and Morrisons, but I still use them. Another thing that will, I know, never convince the footie-haters: at its best, which is often, it's a beautiful, flowing game that requires consummate skill, tactics and fitness. It isn't popular for nothing. And its popularity, whether you like it or not, crosses class boundaries. It's a great diversion for millions of people who haven't got much colour in their lives. And what's so wrong with diversions? And, let's face it, Liverpool FC are simply the greatest in waiting... Sorry for the, er, diversion... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM "Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry." And hiding behind the fact that "others do it" to defend it is gross hypocrisy We deal with Christianity because that is what effects us, living in a so called 'Christian' country - it was Christians that committed these horrific crimes and it was the Christian Church which facilitated and defended it - on an international scale as it has been revealed This has never been an attack on the religion or on Chrstions per se, as you persistently claim It is an exposé of the criminal clergy and the criminal hierarchy who covered up their criminality and passed them on to other parishes and eventually other countries so they were able to continue to rape and abuse children THey still keep the bulk of those details hidden No other religion has ever behaved in that manner Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Mr Red Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM football matches. Mind you, some would say the last one is a religion Oh, I think calling it a religion is understating it rather a lot (aka huge). It is tribal, it is cash cow. It is politics so much that colour-blind prime ministers have to avow to like West Ham, when they mean Aston Vanilla ('cos they're easily licked). Presumably prime ministers are so called because they only see in primary (political) colours! And if we are talking abuse, why does blame for disasters at football stadia fall solely at the feet of those sorting the mess? Answer because anyone pointing out "this or that measure was the solution to crowd behaviour" is roasted by the fans. It is easier to name a scapegoat than blame a mass of human lemmings. Distasters rarely have a single contributory cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:06 PM The real problem one suspects for abusers is that we have become an articulate, literate and critical society. There are many parts of the world where those wielding power are not subject to the checks and balances and surveillance that nowadays afford us protection. many dark corners...i think we can all sense that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jack Campin Date: 09 Jan 18 - 02:36 PM If the Rev. Kevin Arnett were the "con man" which some online responses make him out to be, then he would have been debunked some years ago Since when did being debunked shut a celebrity up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: keberoxu Date: 09 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM Did you mean to say "wikispooks" rather than wilispooks? My attempt to retrace your steps just now, Raggytash, was a dead end at wilispooks, but wikispooks worked. Here's how all this looks to me. If the Rev. Kevin Arnett were the "con man" which some online responses make him out to be, then he would have been debunked some years ago, because he has been before the public eye longer than I realized. Would that the problem were so simple. Arnett appears to be nothing if not human, and what comes to my mind in evaluating the information about him is "but for the grace of *** , there go I." Arnett's feelings and convictions seem sincere, they are certainly intense and these feelings and convictions have stood up to years of intimidation and rejection. Does that justify not knowing how much you are making a bad thing worse? I fear that a public figure as fanatical as this one requires a lengthy and uncomfortable commitment to therapy and counseling before he can hold himself accountable for the intrusions and problems he has visited on the very people to whom he ministers. That is asking, sadly, a very great deal indeed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 09 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM I've just had a quick look at wilispooks, interesting to say the least Keberoxu. I am shortly to go out for the night but will read up some more tomorrow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: keberoxu Date: 09 Jan 18 - 12:25 PM Carry on, if you wish, with that which fuels your fire. My post need not concern you, as I'm not interested in getting personal. My participation in online conversations and fora/forums is limited to public computer stations, as my home has no computer. So the public libraries see a great deal of me, as I am a regular at their computers. This post is coming from one such library branch. To walk from the door from the parking lot to the computer station table, it is necessary to pass the bulletin board, and easy to glance there in order to see if there is anything new and interesting. Well, the Reverend Kevin Arnett is featured in a notice on the board, which notice was not there yesterday. I had never before heard of Arnett, or his "tribunal" of which he gave public notice, within the past ten years, about its foundation/existence. It isn't this branch that Arnett is traveling to, but a library branch in the same network, literally within ten miles up the same route and into the next town over. The notice advertizes Arnett's three-hour engagement/appearance there as part of his tour promoting this tribunal. Mudcatter Gnu knows who Rev. Kevin Arnett is because the Gnu lives in Canada, and Arnett and his tribunal are of Canadian provenance; also because Gnu reads The Tyee for its news content, and The Tyee has for years been keeping people informed about Arnett. For that matter, a Mudcat search for forum threads about Arnett proved fruitful just now. Other Mudcatters have posted about Arnett in the past. After doing some searching online about Arnett and his tribunal, though, I am going to let the meeting happen without me. I don't like what I hear/read; not that there is no merit in the issues to which he draws attention, but that Arnett seems so desperately polarized and fanatical as to be capable of doing harm to his fellow man in the name of doing good. This post has said very little about what Arnett seeks to expose, nor am I going to -- it's pertinent to this topic of course. I'm just concerned about not getting carried away and not losing balance. Thanks for listening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM "Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry." Whenever we discuss Israel you routinely single out the Palestinians and their allies for excoriation but you will never accept the slightest criticism of the Israeli regime or their US supporters. And you obsessively single out the Labour Party to the exclusion of all other organisations as if it were at the root of all antisemitism. And don't even begin to think of making this a thread about Israel. I state this only to demonstrate the laughable hypocrisy of your remark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM "I have just read all your posts on this thread again. I was not lying. You have never attacked any other group on this. All you have done is to attempt to justify your always and only singling out the catholic Church." All very checkable by anyone who cares to go through the thread. On at least four, if not more, occasions, I've said that the abuse is by no means the exclusive territory of clerics. I've said that there are good priests who have done many good works. I've said good things about my own Catholic upbringing and said that I never saw any of this kind of abuse. If you wish to ferret around to find a form of words that indicates that I'm on a mission to do nothing but attack clerics as my career, go ahead. It's what you do and we all know it. And it makes you a liar because you are deliberately trying to misrepresent the position I've taken all through this thread. "Joe had it right days ago. 'But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry.'" Yes, but YOU don't have it right. That remark was directed at Raggytash, not me. So you claim to have read the thread. Well your reading skills aren't up to much then, are they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:09 AM All of them Nigel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Nigel Parsons Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM From: Raggytash There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry. Incidentally the football coach referred to earlier has not been found guilty he is on trial. And how many of the reports you place here about 'Clerical abuse' deal with people who have been "found guilty"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:43 AM There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry. No Rag. Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jack Campin Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:36 AM When abuse takes place, it is often with a sense of entitlement, dominance and superiority (for example, the Rochdale Muslims' abuse of white girls, whom they saw as mere kafirs) The origin of the Rochdale case was a generation ago. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2006/jan/12/childrensservices.uknews The council were set up by a gang of American Christian fundies and their British feminist accomplices into conducting a witch-hunt against non-existent Satanic child abusers. They made such catastrophic fools of themselves that nobody in Rochdale would dare raise the issue of sexual abuse of children for many, many years. And the real abusers figured that out. The panic merchants turned Rochdale into a child rapists' amusement park. A bit more on the background to the Satanic abuse panic: http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/13119 With enemies like Ray Wyre and Beatrix Campbell, child abusers don't need friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry. Incidentally the football coach referred to earlier has not been found guilty he is on trial. |
