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BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem

Greg F. 25 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 18 - 07:31 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 18 - 08:45 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 18 - 09:08 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 18 - 09:26 PM
bobad 25 Jan 18 - 09:43 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 18 - 10:01 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 05:16 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 07:00 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 07:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 08:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM
bobad 26 Jan 18 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM
bobad 26 Jan 18 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM
Greg F. 26 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 11:16 AM
robomatic 26 Jan 18 - 11:22 AM
Greg F. 26 Jan 18 - 11:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 18 - 12:13 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 02:23 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM
Greg F. 26 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM
bobad 26 Jan 18 - 05:22 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 05:44 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 07:25 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 07:28 PM
bobad 26 Jan 18 - 07:43 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 07:56 PM
bobad 26 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 08:37 PM
bobad 26 Jan 18 - 08:44 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 08:58 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 09:22 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

Pathetic.

Good night Joe.

Get well soon.

Greg F, HABA
(Hateful Asshole Bigots of America.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:31 PM

In spite of the valiant efforts of one or two people, this thread, which rapidly lurched away from its original intent, has turned into a hate-fest. It ain't right. No balance.

Anyway, I did enjoy those photos a lot and I've put the country on my bucket list. I'll need to stick a lot more two-pound coins in the piggy bank first as we've had to buy seven new windows this winter...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:45 PM

I decided to drink beer instead of swimming in the Dead Sea this time. The last time, I dove in. As I was in midair, our tour guide shouted, "Joe, don't!" But I did. It's too late to turn back when you're midair in a dive. When I hit the water, everything stung - my eyes, my ears, my lips, every little cut, and every place where I had shaved. As a matter of fact, I've grown a beard ever since and shave just my neck. Luckily, there were freshwater showers on the beach. I went back into the water again, but kept my head above water. I found I could raise my arms and feet out of the water, too. The water felt slimy to me, but I guess that was chemicals because I don't think any slime can live in the Dead Sea. That was 1999. In 2017, I had no desire to go back into the waters of the Dead Sea. But the beer was good.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:08 PM

We have a very special sea pool in Bude, Joe. Google that! It has a beautiful view and there's great beer close by, but I can't promise you Dead Sea temperatures...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:26 PM

I'll take the beer, Steve. I'm geting too old for bracing dives into the sea....


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:43 PM

How is the beer there, Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:01 PM

The beer? Moderately good, but not extraordinary. Much easier to get cold beer in Israel and Palestine, than it is in Egypt. Middle Eastern beer is light, so it really needs to be cold.

But in Luxor, we toured until it got hot, then had the hotel restaurant to ourselves for wonderful concoctions in clay pots. We had to talk them into making the beer a bit colder, but then it was a trip to heaven....

It felt a little decadent to go to the Winter Palace Hotel in Luxor for tea, but we had to do it. Most of the time, we enjoyed our very Egyptian hotel on the other side of the Nile, and took the ferry across for 20 cents a trip. I didn't find a decadent expat hotel in Jerusalem. I have to go back and look a little harder. I think the American Colony Hotel in East Jerusalem might do the trick. The King David Hotel is a little beyond my imagination (and pocketbook, even if just for tea). I got kicked out of the Ritz in Paris in disgrace and not really knowing why, so I'm a little nervous about going into places that are beyond my class.

And hey, I found a great place for beer and pizza in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City in Jerusalem. That's more my style.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM

"So, Jim and Greg, the specific points you wish to make are.....????"
You've had them over and over again Joe and you have responded to none of them
The Israeli regime is ETHNICALLY CLEANSING the Palestinian people out of territory they have occupied for thousands of years using methods that are regarded all over the planet as war crimes
You are defending that behaviour on the basis on one visit and are choosing to ignore documented evidence
In doing to, you are siding with two of the most vicious hate-filled trolls on this forum.
Enjoy your dinner party - take a long spoon
If we are bigots, so are all the decent people of this planet
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:38 AM

I don't defend the conduct of the Israelis, Jim; and you will not find one word of defense from me in this entire thread. All I said, is that Israel is a beautiful place. I have tried my best to honestly report my experiences in Israel and Palestine, and I have tried to present what I saw without analysis.

But despite what the Israelis are trying to do, the Palestinians are making great progress in their efforts to build themselves a nation. I have lavished praise on what I saw of the people and government of Palestine. I did not comment much about the Israeli government because I did not really have a chance to observe it this time. My contact was almost exclusively with Arabs, and I was very favorably impressed.

Can you get that through your thick skull?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:16 AM

"All I said, is that Israel is a beautiful place."
The discussion, which you started, is not about the beauty of Israel, and you well know with your insulting behavior towards those who criticise the Israeli regime
Your anodyne presentation of your visit and your refusal to respond to what is actually happening to the Palestinian people indicates which side you have taken
As the joke said, your eye test may say that you are unfir for service but your prick is pointing strait to West Point
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM

OK, Jim, I was talking about PALESTINE. Do you know about Palestine? It's a nation where Arab peoples have lived for centuries. Israel conquered it in 1967, but the PALESTINIAN people have held firm and are finally beginning to show signs of success.

Although I visited Israel and found it to be beautiful, I did not have any chance this time to interact with Jewish Israelis. The people I had contact with were ARAB people, and I learned a lot from them.
ARAB Palestinians, and ARAB Israelis. Do you know about them? They are very admirable people.

In other words, Jim, get your head out of your ass. I don't see where there's anything I've said in this thread that you can disagree with. I agree with everything you say, except for your condemnation of me for thinking more-or-less the same way you're thinking. Do you condemn me for supporting the nation of Palestine?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

This is very important, so despite the efforts of mindless ideologues to silence me, let me say it.

The United Nations supports a two-state solution to the situation in Israel, but the conservatives in Israel and their U.S. supporters have done their best to thwart that - and the rest of the world has sat back and protested, and nothing has been resolved.

But the Palestinian people aren't waiting. They are going ahead and building a second state, whether the Israelis like it or not, and they have succeeded in building a very credible nation for themselves. They haven't resolved all the problems yet, but it sure looks like they are doing things right. I see a lot of hope for the Nation of Palestine.

Palestine has become a force to be reckoned with. This is the main thing that I have been trying to explain, and I think that it is not widely known how much progress Palestine has been making. To my mind, it is truly remarkable.

Now, why is it that Jim Carroll objects to my saying this? I thought that this is exactly the goal that he is seeking. Somebody, please explain this to me.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:17 AM

Well I for one enjoyed that "anodyne" first post and I read into it that Joe was definitely not intending to start yet another tedious Israel hate-fest. I'm not joining in with that. Why can't you give an account of your holiday along with hundreds of photos without getting a bollocking for it, just because it was Israel you went to?   I'm getting sorely pissed off by the fact that you can't mention Israel round here without it automatically turning into yet another depressing flame war, and in the past I've been as guilty as anyone else (though not as extreme as some and I can prove that). There seems to be a false polarisation going on here. The real trolls who didn't hesitate to whip this up must be laughing their heads off. Anyway, Joe, to get back to anodynenessitudinousness, a plunge into our sea pool may well take your breath away but you'll feel one of two things for the rest of the day, either great or dead. It's three miles from my house along a glorious stretch of coast path. I'm a long-time member of the Friends Of Bude Sea Pool, though I've never been in (I only ever paddle). The buggers have put my membership fee up by five quid this year. Now THAT'S something worth getting aerated about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

"mindless ideologues"
No need to ask which side you are on Joe
How can support of a people under seige be a "mindless ideology"
After a decade of blockade and a series of brutal military incursions Gaza is on the point of collapse
Yet you say that we should visit the homeland of the perpetrators because we "might like it"
You have yet to acknowledge a single example of what is going on in the area - you should be ashamed of yourself, yet you continue to hurl abuse against those of us who see Israel for what it has become
In your defence, yu do come from a church that has a history of siding with the powerful rather than the oppressed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM

Palestine, Jim, Palestine. Do you know anything at all about Palestine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:00 AM

Yeah, it's full of Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed
The ones you have accused us of being "mindless ideologues" for defending
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:05 AM

There are trolls who are undoubtedly reading this thread who don't believe that there's any such thing as Palestine or Palestinians and it seems to me that they will be taking great pleasure in observing how the thread is panning out. You blokes should be on the same side, shouldn't you? You can be on the same side yet have very different perspectives, you know!


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM

Yeah, it's full of Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed

Says who?
No single liberal democratic country accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing.
Such accusations come only from declared enemies of Israel who have a worse human rights record than Israel does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM

"The Seattle Mideast Awareness Campaign (Jim's "ethnic cleansing" link) is an offshoot of "Coalition to Stop $30 billion to Israel." This started in 2009 and tried to get support from J-Street. On April 8, 2009, they set up 10 billboards around Albuquerque, New Mexico in a 2 month contract. They were quite open in their intentions to slam Israel. The billboards mentioning "killing children" were removed after 3 weeks of the 8 week contract after many complaints. Then again in December 2009 more appeared in Albuquerque but the message was modified. A video was made"
http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/who-is-seattle-mideast-awareness.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:37 AM

Yet another depressing turn in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM

Sorry Steve, but the claim for "ethnic cleansing" needed to be challenged.
Are you happy that Jim kept making it? Why did you not say something?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM

You are the first to complain when threads go off-topic. You are deliberately fomenting further trouble here. Tell us instead, and exclusively instead, what you think of Joe's photographs and holiday narrative. We know your agenda and I for one am sick to death of these threads turning in the same old negative direction. Go and find something useful to do with your time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:07 AM

Do you know about Palestine? It's a nation where Arab peoples have lived for centuries. Israel conquered it in 1967

Some corrections of factual errors:

By Palestine I presume you are referring to the area which historically has been known as Judea and Samaria where Jews have also lived for millenia, as a matter of fact Judea, previously the kingdom of Judah, is the root of the word Judaism.

Judea and Samaria are part of the lands granted to the Jewish people by the League of Nations for their national home in the Treaty of Sevres 1920. In 1948 Israel declared independence and was immediately attacked by six Arab armies one of which was Jordan who illegally occupied Judea and Samaria. The occupation ended after the Six Day War in 1967 and Judea and Samaria were liberated and returned to Israel by formal treaty in which Jordan renounced all claim to the area and acknowledged the west bank of the Jordan river as Israel's western border.

There is no country named Palestine today, hopefully one day there will be and it's people will live and prosper in peace with their neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM

"No single liberal democratic country accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing."
You mean liberal democratic countried like Britain who have bunged 1 billion£ of the British Taxpayers money to a party with terrorist connections, ot the US who is now headed by a ravinbg antisemitic, racist lunatic
To expect self-serving politicians to do the decent thing is a defence beyond belife
Virtually every Human Rights organisation and groups made up of Jews and non-Jews have claimed suggested that the Israeli regime is involved in ethnic cleansing
To take the word of the politicians above those of these groups is classical fascism - the State over the people
Address the facts Keith rather than hiding behind the actions of politicians
Ethnic cleansing has been an issue in Israel since it was first discussed after the SIX DAY WAR
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM

ETHNIC CLEANSERS DEFENDING ETHNIC CLEANSING
Israel has been up to its arse in the terrorising of ethnic groups since it tried to sell APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA Nuclear Weapons
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:58 AM

Sorry, the west bank of the Jordan river as Israel's western border should, of course, read the west bank of the Jordan river as Israel's eastern border.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM

SEAMAC
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM

Well I for one enjoyed that "anodyne" first post.....

Almost, Steve, but not quite so "anodyne" perhaps?

If you'll recall it included this question posed by Joe:
But why would they tunnel through an area with four millennia of achaeological treasures to build a railroad stations? And fer crissake, why name it Trump Station?

Joe didn't like the answers he received to that, and thence came the "bigots", other insults & personal attacks he seems to enjoy tossing around.

Cheers -

Greg F, HABA


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:16 AM

Well, neither Greg nor Jim is making any sense, so I won't argue with them any more. Greg can go on and on without actually posting any content or logic. I don't know what that's about. I think he just likes to fight.
As for Jim, I just don't know.
But I'm not going to bother arguing with either of them any more.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:22 AM

I think one thing is clear that the subject stirs vitriol. The emotional attacks that arise from simple observations is an observation in itself.

I think it has been valuable to leave this thread open but I'd like it if someone who responded to an observation with a personal attack would re-think this approach.

It reminds me of my reactions to the following:

"It's nothing personal"
"Calm down"
"Don't get excited"
"You're not going to like this"
"What you've got to understand is..."
"You're the first person to call with this problem"


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:36 AM

Greg can go on and on without actually posting any content or logic.

Pathetic. Another personal attack with no substance whatsoever.


But I'm not going to bother arguing with either of them any more.

Thanks Joe - If you don't care to deal with points raised that's fine- but don't act the injured party- you likely HAVE no valid argument to present.

By the way, are you also not going to bother calling me names & hurling insults? Just curious.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:13 PM

So Jim, does your Ireland or any other EU state accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing?
No.
Neither does any Scandinavian country, or Canada, or Australia or any liberal democracy, because it is just anti-Israel propaganda propagated by its enemies.
Once again your views on Israel are shown to be extreme.

Steve, if it is OK for Jim to make those claims it must be OK for me to challenge them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:27 PM

Do what the hell you like, Keith. But you know what will happen. Where was it now that I once read a definition of insanity, which went something like "Insanity is when you repeatedly do the same thing knowing that it doesn't work, but you keep doing it anyway..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:52 PM

"So Jim, does your Ireland or any other EU state accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing?"
Many thousands of people in Ireland most certainly do BDS has a strong support here
Last year Dublin was visited by a delegation of Israeli soldiers who spoke at public meetings on the part they had been forced to play in driving Palestinians from their home - ethnic cleansing
Only a fascist would rather take the word of politicians over what they were saying Scandinavia has a strong BDS movement a
s does Canada, Australia and virtually every Liberal demmocracy
As I say - if you'd rather take the word of politicians over that of the people, it is you who is the extremist
Instead of hiding behind spineless, self-serving and extremist politicians, how about addressing the facts of what is happening - you have had enough ogf them
Stop lying on behalf aof an Antisemitic regime who is now consorting with antisemitism up to the point of naming an undergeround station in their mahjor city after an open antisemite
SDo you wish to claim that Trump isn't Antisemitic
Do you deny that the Israeli regime have connived with antisemites in Hungary
Do you believe the Shin Bet security directors who claimed that Israel was now adopting similar tactics to the Nazis has suddenly become antisemitic
Are you really claiming that the UN, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty are all antisemitic liars
No answer is as good as any
Within my lifetime the 'Free, democratic world stood by and watched the rise of Hitler and did nothing
There's SFA new about politicians staying silent and allowing monsters to wipe out politicians
Perhaps you'd like to call TIMES of ISRAEL liars or peddlers of 'Fake News'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM

"Well, neither Greg nor Jim is making any sense, "
Going without attempting to respond to one single piece of evidence Joe
And WE are not making sense
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:47 PM

I know a few Israeli Jews. All are classical or folk musicians that I met in the United States. I have not heard one good word from any of them about Benjamin Netanyahu. I'm guessing that most of them are supporters of the Labor Party. They seem to think of Netanyahu, like most of us think of Trump. Wikipedia lists 17 different political parties in the Knesset, none with a majority. Whichever party wants to form a government, must form a coalition with somebody. But with such a wide spead of parties, it's hard to make definite statements about the politics of the Knesset.

Israel is a wonderful place, it really is. I think it would be ideal for Israel and the occupied territories to be blended into one state, but that would be disastrous for the Jews because it would create a vast Arab electoral majority that would not allow the Jews to survive.

That being the case, I think a two-state solution is the only viable option. But Israel feels threatened by that and rightly so, so it is blocking that option. But as I said above, it seems that the wall is actually serving to strengthen Palestine while giving Israel the security it needs, so now maybe Israel will be willing to agree to a second state.

But there is so much animosity and anger blocking any attempt at a solution, so I don't know if a permanent solution is possible. Maybe the current stasis is the best we can hope for, until the situation evolves. Somehow, in the current stasis, the Israelis and Palestinians are able to make things work - usually. But it's a delicate balance, and any number of things can upset that balance and cause disaster. Trump's decision to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem is one such action that could lead to disaster.

There are two possible perspectives on the proposal to build a train station under the Old City of Jerusalem. It could be an absolute disaster, destroying any semblance of stasis that the Israelis and Palestinians have been able to achieve. I'm afraid that all hell would break loose on the day they started construction, so I think I have to oppose the building of such a station.

At one time, I would have opposed underground construction like this in any archaeologically sensitive area - and especially this one. But then I saw the Acropolis subway station in Athens. The construction of the subway allowed for outstanding archaeological work to take place, and the artifacts that were found were placed in a new museum built right next to the subway. The stations itself is delightful, decorated with features reminiscent of the historical site above. I went into the station at 6 one morning, and classical music was playing on the platform - on high-quality speakers. This underground station could be an extraordinary opportunity for archaeologists.

Maybe the political climate would be good for such a station in 50 or 100 years, but right now, I think it would be disastrous.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 02:23 PM

"But Israel feels threatened by that and rightly so"
Israel has ben the aggressor since the state was formed - British servicemen sailed away to the sound of hand grenades being thrown into occupied homes to cllear whole towns for the new settlers
You are justifying the unjustifiable without even having the courage to either admit or deny what is actually happening - shame on you
The Nazis claimed everything they did was in defence of their country and the German people
May your god forgive you Joe
PERHAPS YOU RECOGNISE YOUR CHURCH HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM

What would be the Palestinian state has become so fragmented by settlement building that it's hard to envisage a two-state setup working. On top of that, it's hard to see how two countries that would quite likely be hostile to each other could sit peaceably side by side. Israel isn't very good at that and the Palestinians have plenty of allies who love fighting proxy wars, and Israel has the US giving totally unconditional support. Not a recipe for success, even if both sides were initially satisfied with the carve-up, another obstacle. Those settlements... One great big democracy is the only answer, but that is impossible for Israel to stomach for the demographic reason Joe describes and due to the fact that Israel will never be persuaded to drop its "Jewish state" claim. In the long run I think that American aid to Israel must be made conditional on its dropping its bellicose attitude and settlement building and that the west should invest heavily in the development of the Palestinian territories. Prosperous and thriving countries seldom see the need to be at war with each other. Give both sides prosperity but give them both something to lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM

I know a few Israeli Jews.

But don't get us wrong!
Some of our best Negroes are our friends.

vide Phil Ochs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:22 PM

But Israel feels threatened by that and rightly so

Israel, and Britain before them, have been trying to give the Arab people in Judea and Samaria a state of their own since 1937. Here is a summary of those attempts:

In 1937, the Palestinians were offered a state (Peel Commision), they said NO.
In 1947, The Palestinians were offered a state (UN Partition), they said NO.
In 1967, The Palestinians were offered a state (Khartoum), they said NO.
In 2000, the Palestinians were offered a state (Camp David), they said NO.
In 2001, the Palestinians were offered a state (TABA), they said NO.
In 2008, the Palestinians were offered a state (Olmert offer), they said NO.
In 2015, the Palestinians were offered a state (French sponsored UN offer), they said NO.
Each time it was offered and they refused, they resorted to violence against Israel. What do you think the Palestinians really want?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:44 PM

"What do you think the Palestinians really want?"

Who exactly are you talking about? The Palestinian leadership? Or everybody in Palestine? You don't make it clear, do you? I don't criticise "Israel." I do criticise the Israeli regime. If I did criticise Israel, or the Israeli people, or "the Jews," you'd be down my throat like a shot. So who do you mean by "the Palestinians?" Sounds like exactly the loose talk that you would instantly castigate your "adversaries" for. Well I'll tell you what I think "the Palestinians" want. They want what you want. They want what I want. They want what the Israeli people want. They want a bit of prosperity, they want nice places to live, they want security and they want peace. "The Palestinians" are human beings just like you, me and the Jews in Israel and everywhere else. If there's one thing that Joe's narrative has brought into focus, it's that "the Palestinians" are proud people who value their culture and heritage. Try to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:25 PM

The most distressing thing I saw on my trip to Israel and Palestine, were the Israeli Settlements (cliki for Wiki). They're scattered everywhere in Palestine, and they're of very substantial size. I thought they were just a few rustic outposts here and there, but that's not the case.

I have read that the worst instrument of terrorism that the Israelis use, is the bulldozer. At least some of the settlements were built on the sites of Palestinian homes, which were bulldozed.

National Public Radio has an excellent article (29 Dec 2016) on this:

When Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 Six-Day War, no Israeli citizens had lived in the territory for nearly two decades, since an earlier war. But in 1968, a small group of religious Jews rented rooms at the Park Hotel in Hebron for Passover, saying they wanted to be near the Tomb of the Patriarchs, one of the holiest sites in Judaism (as well as Islam and Christianity).

The Israeli government reluctantly allowed them to stay "temporarily." From that beginning, hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews now reside in the West Bank, citing religion, history and Israel's security among their reasons for being there.

But the Palestinians, along with the rest of the world, see their presence as one of the key obstacles to a peace agreement and the creation of a Palestinian state.

The issue returned to the headlines when the United Nations Security Council recently voted 14 to 0 to condemn Israeli settlements. The United States, which often vetoes resolutions critical of Israel, abstained and allowed the resolution to pass.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu responded angrily, unleashing a stream of accusations against the Obama administration. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry defended the U.S. position Wednesday in a lengthy speech that repeatedly admonished Israel over settlements.

Here are seven key things to know about the settlements:

1. Settlements are growing rapidly

The term "settlements" may conjure up images of small encampments or temporary housing, and many have started that way. But they now include large subdivisions, even sizable cities, with manicured lawns and streets full of middle-class villas often set on arid hilltops. Israel is constantly building new homes and offers financial incentives for Israelis to live in the West Bank.

When the Israelis and Palestinians first began peace talks after a 1993 interim agreement, the West Bank settlers numbered a little over 100,000. Today they total around 400,000 and live in about 130 separate settlements (this doesn't include East Jerusalem, which we'll address in a moment).

They have grown under every Israeli government over the past half-century despite consistent international opposition. Hard-line leaders like Netanyahu have actively supported them. Moderates and liberals have also allowed settlements to expand, though usually at a slower rate. The settler movement is a powerful political force, and any prime minister who takes it on risks the collapse of his government.

You can click here to see data on the settlements and a detailed map from Peace Now, an Israeli group that is opposed to settlements and closely monitors them.

2. Settlements complicate efforts for a two-state solution

Critics of settlements say they've intentionally been established in every corner of the West Bank, giving the Israeli military a reason to be present throughout the territory and making it impossible to create a viable Palestinian state. The settlement locations and the roads that connect them make Palestinian movement difficult.

The settlements are just one of many obstacles to a peace deal. Drawing boundaries, the status of Jerusalem, the fate of Palestinian refugees, and myriad security questions — including terrorism — are equally challenging, if not more so.

A Palestinian man walks near a construction site for new Israeli housing in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Har Homa in September. The Palestinians claim East Jerusalem as a capital of a future state and object to Israeli building in the eastern part of the city and throughout the West Bank. Israel claims all of Jerusalem as its capital.

And as the settlements grow, it will be increasingly difficult to remove a large number of them, a tactic known as "creating facts on the ground."

3. The distinction between East Jerusalem and the West Bank

Shortly after the 1967 war, Israel annexed East Jerusalem, which is part of the West Bank and had a population that was then entirely Palestinian. Israel declared the entire city to be Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital.

No other country recognizes Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem, with the United States and others saying the city's status must be determined in negotiations. This is why the U.S. and other countries have never moved their embassies to Jerusalem. Most are in Tel Aviv.

The Palestinians, meanwhile, claim the eastern part of the city as their future capital.

Around 200,000 Israelis now live in East Jerusalem. Combined with the roughly 400,000 settlers in the West Bank, about 600,000 Israelis now live beyond the country's 1967 borders. That's nearly 10 percent of Israel's 6.3 million Jewish citizens.

While the Israelis tend to speak of East Jerusalem and the West Bank as two separate entities, the Palestinians regard them as a single body — the occupied West Bank.

4. What does Israel say about settlements?

The settlers and their supporters cite the Jewish Bible, thousands of years of Jewish history, and Israel's need for "strategic depth" as reasons for living in the West Bank.

They also note that Israel took the territory from Jordan, which has since relinquished its claim to the West Bank. Therefore, the settlers argue, there is no legal sovereign in the territory.

However, no country, not even Israel, considers West Bank settlements to be sovereign Israeli territory. As we noted, Israel annexed East Jerusalem and administers it as part of Israel. But Israel has never annexed any other part of the West Bank.

The settlers want to be formally incorporated into Israel, but that would ignite a major controversy. For now, Israel regards the West Bank as "disputed" territory that has been under the Israeli military since the 1967 war.

5. How about the Palestinians?

From some Palestinian cities, there are clear views of Israeli settlements — and new construction — on nearby hillsides. And in most settlement neighborhoods, there are wide areas of empty hillside closed to Palestinians, which Israel says are necessary buffers for security.

Palestinians see them as visual proof that their sought-after independent state is being taken from them. Palestinian leaders have opposed peace talks in recent years while, as they see it, Israel is building on land that is part of those talks.

6. Has Israel ever dismantled settlements?

Yes, on a few occasions, most notably in 2005, when it removed all 8,000 settlers from the Gaza Strip. Israel decided these small, isolated settlements were too difficult to defend in a territory where the Jewish residents accounted for less than 1 percent of the population.

The evacuation of the settlements was deeply divisive within Israel, and Israel's security forces had to drag some settlers from their homes kicking and screaming. The episode demonstrated that Israel could remove settlers, but it also showed how much friction it creates inside Israel.

7. What are the proposed solutions?

Kerry on Wednesday outlined the general approach: land swaps. Under this scenario, the largest Jewish settlements, which are near the boundary with Israel, would formally become Israeli territory. In exchange, Israel would turn over an equal amount of its current land that would become part of a Palestinian state.

In addition, settlements deep in the West Bank, far from Israel, would be disbanded. It would be a difficult political move for an Israeli prime minister, but it would also be difficult for a Palestinian leader to accept a peace deal without removing settlements.

Greg Myre is the international editor of NPR.org. Follow him @gregmyre1

Larry Kaplow is NPR's Middle East editor. Follow him @larrykaplow


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:28 PM

Note this most important part from the NPR story: When the Israelis and Palestinians first began peace talks after a 1993 interim agreement, the West Bank settlers numbered a little over 100,000. Today they total around 400,000 and live in about 130 separate settlements (this doesn't include East Jerusalem, which we'll address in a moment).

400,000 "settlers." Sounds like an invasion to me.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:43 PM

When Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 Six-Day War, no Israeli citizens had lived in the territory for nearly two decades

Duh Joe, did you forget that the Jews who had lived there for generations had been ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians who had ILLEGALLY occupied it. I find it hard to believe that anyone who would make such an idiotic comment is motivated by anything but malevolence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:56 PM

Bobad, I realize that there were atrocities committed on both sides. I see no value on dwelling on long-ago history. If there ever is to be peace in Palestine and Israel, we must disregard what people did 40, 50, and 70 years ago and consider the present reality.

I am both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. I have met and talked at length with people from both sides, and I think I understand and accept the positions of each fairly well. I find that most people on both sides are willing to disregard what happened so long ago. All they want is peace and stable housing and employment and education, and the ability to move on from the present instead of being hampered by past grudges.

What happened in 1967 is irrelevant. That was over fifty years ago, and the people who fought those battles are now dead or nearly so.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM

Well Joe, history (rightly or wrongly) informs the present and lying about it only serves to perpetuate hostility especially when the lies are used to incite one side against the other.

Interestingly, as I was typing this this popped up on my Facebook wall written by Qanta A. Ahmed, Qanta Ahmed, M.D., is Associate Professor of Medicine, State University of New York, and Honorary Professor Glasgow Caledonian University, School of Public Health. She is currently a Ford Foundation Public Voices Fellow with the OpEd Project.

as a believing Muslim observing Islam, I am compelled by the Quran to support Israel's sole claim to the Holy Land; the Quran says it is so.

The 80,000-word document 1.6 billion Muslims accept as the revealed word of God, the Quran, is categorical about the destiny of Israel and the people who can claim its ownership.

The Quran states: 'Moses said to his people: O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers.'

Nowhere does the Quran make mention of the Muslims' claim to the Holy Land. Instead, God reveals in the Quran that The Holy Land is designated for the followers of Moses. Because the Promised Land is theirs according to the Quran, only the followers of Moses may determine where their capital must lie.

It is this Islamic truth that political Islamists vehemently deny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:37 PM

And the outcome of your divisive attitude is what, bobad? How does that in any way inform the situation that currently obtains?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:44 PM

Dr. Qanta A. Ahmed, MD, is a British American Muslim, author of In the Land of Invisible Women,member of the Council on Foreign Relations, and Next Generation Council Member of the University of Southern California’s Shoah Foundation Institute for Visual History and Education. @MissDiagnosis


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:58 PM

OK, so I hear the Quran says this. Pleace cite chapter and verse, so I can look it up myself.

Whatever the case may be, the Palestinians have been there for a long, long time. Once the "long time" passes one generation, I'm not willing to deport anyone. If they were born and raised there, deporting them is immoral.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:22 PM

Same here, Joe. At risk of losing friends, I can't tolerate any talk, no matter who from, of wiping Israel off the map. Israel isn't Bibi. Israel is eight million citizens, mostly people who were born there. A big bunch of real live human beings. Just like us!


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