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BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 18 - 04:00 PM while also seeking the elimination of the Jewish state. Well, Robo's gone over to the side of the lunatics & advocates of "alternative facts"**. Or maybe he's a Trump supporter. Same difference. ** i.e., lies |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:08 PM So, Steve says about the Anti-Defamation League: You're being just a tad naive, Joe. Just because that disreputable organisation has been going for a hundred years, it doesn't mean that it's respectable. I think you're going a bit far, Steve. There's no question that is ADL and represents the Israeli point of view to Americans. BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) is essentially a sanctions campaign. It's meant to hit Israel where it hurts - to push Israel toward more ethical conduct toward Palestinians. The fact that ADL says "ouch" on behalf of Israel, does not mean that ADL is "disreputable" or whatever other names Jim Carroll called it. In other words, ADL is calling BDS effective. The fact that people or organizations make statements you disagree with, does not make them "disreputable." I don't always agree with ADL, but I've found them to be quite reputable, and to be honestly representative of Israeli and Jewish viewpoints. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM I find this post to be problematic: Thread #163483 Message #3902516 Posted By: bobad 28-Jan-18 - 07:52 PM Thread Name: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
The three main goals of the BDS movement targeting Israel are: The first three points appear to come from some official source. They seem to be an accurate description of the goals of BDS - and they seem like reasonable goals.
The next group of three points attempts to explain the first three, but I find them to be misleading and unreasonable. Where'd you get the two 3-point sets, Bobad? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:28 PM The fact that ADL says "ouch" on behalf of Israel, does not mean that ADL is "disreputable" No, Joe, but the fact that they misrepresent what the BDS folks are all about MOST DEFINATELY DOES! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM Where'd you get the two 3-point sets, Bobad? Out of his arse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:11 PM 1.Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall. What Arab lands do you think are being referred to here? 2.Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality. ALL citizens in Israel have full equality. 3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194. The official BDS site states there are 7.25 million "Palestinian" refugees. Use your fucking head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:18 PM ADL has, for many decades, obsessively collected mountains of information about any individual it sees as a threat, and that amounts to thousands of individuals. I wonder why. They bestowed great honour on Silvio Berlusconi, ignoring his totally corrupt character because he is such a stalwart friend of the Israeli state. Wow. Their claim that BDS has the aim of dismantling the state of Israel is utterly without foundation. To put it another way, Joe, it's a damned lie. But this is what they do. They pounce on any criticism of the actions or policies of the Israeli regime and, more or less automatically, condemn it as antisemitic. So yes, it is a highly disreputable organisation. That is not to say that they haven't done some good work to promote the cause of Jewish people, but they have routinely tarnished themselves as described. Even Mussolini made the bloody trains run on time. Wiki: In 1989, the linguist and left-wing commentator and activist Noam Chomsky characterized the ADL as having lost entirely its focus on civil rights issues in order to become solely an advocate for Israeli policy; he held that the ADL cast all left-wing opposition to Israeli interests as antisemitism. Wanna deny that? Norman Finkelstein claims that organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League have brought forward charges of new anti-Semitism at various intervals since the 1970s, "not to fight antisemitism, but rather to exploit the historical suffering of Jews in order to immunize Israel against criticism".The Washington Post has noted that the ADL has repeatedly accused Finkelstein of being a "Holocaust denier", and that "these charges have proved baseless". Just read their stuff! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:54 PM "Many countries, state jurisdictions, cities and universities have banned BDS as a thinly disguised anti-Semitic movement and have made it illegal." Untrue. Hardly any countries have banned BDS. 21 states in the US have stated opposition to BDS and passed some form of legislature but these do not all necessarily amount to blanket "bans," and states are not countries in any case. A few city legislatures, and I mean a few, have passed laws banning BDS or some of their activities. The reasons for these decisions are very varied, but "thinly-disguised antisemitic movement" is rarely, if ever, expressed as one of them. The EU opposes the calling of sanctions against Israel but there is no ban. Israel has certainly banned BDS and has caused outrage by preventing BDS supporters from entering the country. What price free speech? There are plenty of Israelis who oppose what their regime is doing but they are not permitted to hear similar dissenting voices in their own country. I'll remember that next time somebody tells me what a mighty democracy Israel is. It's against the law in Israel to call for a boycott either of the country or of settlements. As individuals calling for boycotts are not allowed into the country, if Bibi reads my posts, Joe, that proposed holiday of mine will never happen! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:36 PM From what I hear, Steve, Bibi is known to be corrupt and will most likely go to trial soon after he leaves his office as Prime Minister. I don't think you have anything to worry about. Trouble is, our Armenian-Israeli tour guide says most Israeli Prime Ministers over the last thirty years have been corrupt and have gone to trial. So, go on your trip - and be sure to try the Palestinian beer - TaybehGoldstar and Maccabee are the two favorite beers in Israel. I think I liked Taybeh best. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:51 PM Three points about what follows,which is from wiki. First, it's a boring read. Sometimes you have to wade through boring things to tease out the reality of the situation. The reality appears to be that bobad's claim that the aim is for full equality for Palestinians in Israel is poppycock. Second, a lot of the stuff is a good few years out of date. And third, in connection with the last point, there have been some improvements for Arabs in Israel, largely for better-off ones. I'm sure that someone disagreeing with the tenor of this post will jump in and, hopefully, provide the facts of the matter. But, substantially, what I've pasted below is, I believe, a reflection of the state of inequality in Israel. And I do recognise that every country on Earth has too much inequality. In Israel's case, it seems that inequality between Jews and Arabs is very sharp and many points of it need a fair bit of explaining. Not all of it is the result of deliberate discrimination, but a lot of it definitely is. Read on if you have the strength. In 2005, of the 40 towns in Israel with the highest unemployment rates, 36 were Arab towns.According to the Central Bank of Israel statistics for 2003, salary averages for Arab workers were 29% lower than for Jewish workers. Difficulties in procuring employment have been attributed to a comparatively low level of education vis-a-vis their Jewish counterparts, insufficient employment opportunities in the vicinity of their towns, discrimination by Jewish employers, and competition with foreign workers in fields, such as construction and agriculture.Arab women have a higher unemployment rate in the work force relative to both religious and secular Jewish women. While among Arab men the employment was found to be on par with Jewish men, 17% of Arab women were found to be employed. This puts the Arab employment at 68% of the Israeli average. The Druze and Christian Arabs have higher employment than Muslims. Further, due largely to improvements in health care, the Arab infant mortality rate dropped from 32 deaths per thousand births in 1970 to 8.6 per thousand in 2000. However, the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world. In 2003, the infant mortality rate among Arab citizens overall was 8.4 per thousand, more than twice as high as the rate 3.6 per thousand among the Jewish population. In the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its 277 m-shekel (?35m) budget (1.6 m shekels {?200,000}) to develop healthcare facilities. In 2001, Human Rights Watch described government-run Arab schools as "a world apart from government-run Jewish schools." The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system. In 2005, the Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education said that the Israeli government spent an average of $192 a year on Arab students compared to $1,100 for Jewish students. The drop-out rate for Arabs was twice as high as for Jews (12 percent versus 6 percent). There was a 5,000-classroom shortage in the Arab sector. According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, "Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education. According to Sikkuy, Arab citizens held approximately 60 to 70 of the country's 5,000 university faculty positions." Arab educators have long voiced concerns over institutionalized budgetary discrimination. An August 2009 study published by the Hebrew University's School of Education claimed that Israel's Education Ministry discriminated against Arabs in its allocations of special assistance for students from low socioeconomic backgrounds and the average per-student allocation at Arab junior high schools was one-fifth the average at Jewish ones. This was due to the allocation method: funds were first divided between Arab and Jewish school systems according to the number of students in each, and then allocated to needy students; however, due to the large proportion of such students in the Arab sector, they receive less funds, per student, than Jewish students. The Ministry of Education said it was discontinuing this method in favor of a uniform index.Ministry data on the percentage of high school students who passed their matriculation exams showed that Arab towns were ranked lowest except for Fureidis, which had the third highest pass rate (75.86 percent) in Israel. Nearly half of Arab students who passed their matriculation exams failed to win a place in higher education because they performed poorly in the Psychometric Entrance Test, compared to 20% of Jewish applicants. Khaled Arar, a professor at Beit Berl College, believes the psychometric test is culturally biased: "The gap in psychometric scores between Jewish and Arab students has remained steady "at more than 100 points out of a total of 800" since 1982. That alone should have raised suspicions." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:54 PM I've got another £1600 to pay for those windows still, Joe, and that's just the last third of the total. The Israeli ladies are safe for a little while longer yet! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:56 PM Grrr. The software will let me do dollar signs but not pound signs. I've been discriminated against! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:29 PM I think our Armenian Israeli tour guide would verify what you say, Steve. He said all non-Jews in Israel are second-class citizens. The standard of living is quite good for everyone, but Arabs and others simply do not have the same rights and status that Jews have. He acknowledged that the Jewish Israelis do a lot of their "dirty tricks" to maintain control in the Knesset because they fear that if they didn't they wouldn't survive - but still and all, mistreatment of non-Jews in Israel is the rule, not the exception - as is oppression of Arab Palestinians. So - my question is: how can the Jewish Israelis maintain their own security in a way that does not oppress non-Jews? It seems impossible, but somebody has to find a way. It seems to me, that Jewish Israelis need their Arab population to maintain prosperity while moving away from dependence on U.S. subsidies - but how can that be made to work? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 03:50 AM Seems to me that Jerusalem is a big impediment to any sort of two-state resolution, since the city is important to all the world. Seems to me that the walled Old City ought to be an international city, property of no one, perhaps as a United Nations UNESCO Heritage Site. Then West Jerusalem could be capital of Israel, and East Jerusalem of Palestine. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:00 AM "disreputable" or whatever other names Jim Carroll called it." Instead of referring to "what I called it" inderectly Joe, why not trying to address the points I made head-on; they are either accurate or wrong, simple as that, but they are specific - a million miles from your own amorphous defence of Israel Try again; why not read this through and see if it rings any bells. INEQUALITY REPORT Once again I find it necessary to make my own attitude to Israel clear All my life I have been brought up to respect the idea of a Jewish State My father went to Spain when his family realised from information being passed on to them from Jewish refugees living in close to where they lived in Liverpool Politically, members of my family associated with Jewish activists and were part of the anti-Fascist demonstrations ahet took place in the thirties - my grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone that hit Mosly at one of his street meetings (a good Catholic lady who told the arresting officer "that stone was guided by the hand of God") My father's brother was a regular soldier and was present at the opening of one of the concentration camps - a traumatic experience He later went on to serve in British Palestine and was among the last to leave when the British handed over power - he described hearing the gunfire and explosions as Arabs here cleared out of their homes to make room for the new settlers. I first became aware of what was happening in Israel from Jewish friends in Manchester, mainly left-wing, who had become increasingly disturbed at the behaviour of the Jewish administration towards the Arab population After a visit to the film, Shoah, my girl-friends mother, a Holocaust survivor, exploded in anger one night and called them "a bunch of ****** fascists" - it led to the break-up in my relationship with her daughter - I was iunable to get my head around the concept of a Jewish fascist, knowing what I knew about their experience in the camps. The mother once spoke to me at length about their experiences and left me with a saying that has influenced my life ever since "Never again - not to anybody" THat has had a major influence on my attitude to what is happening - in the world, not just Israel, ever since So when the scumbags fling around their accusations of antisemitism and refuse to debate honestly, (as you are doing here), it acts as confirmation of what I believe I have learned from people who know better Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:33 AM I'm not disagreeing with you, Jim. That's why I can't figure out why you're getting so upset about what I've posted. I am, however, trying to flesh things out by adding my photos and personal observations. I also prefer to rely on rational, dispassionate sources and to stay away from propaganda. But since you've been so irrational, I haven't been responding to you. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM "So - my question is: how can the Jewish Israelis maintain their own security in a way that does not oppress non-Jews?" I don't want to be giving glib or clever-clogs answers, Joe, but the best way of achieving that security would be to stop oppressing non-Jews in Israel, to unblock Gaza and to jaw-jaw first with the neighbouring states before going into attack mode. There's an awful lot of unresolved chicken-and-egg about conflicts in that region. Jim may not like that, but I don't see too many innocents in the mix. Israel has the prosperity, the allies and the influence to make far more positive moves than it has done towards solutions. And those allies could be a damn sight more critical whilst still remaining allies. That lack of REAL criticism, along with the lack of conditionality in their dealings with Israel, is a massive part of the problem. It simply feeds the hubris of the regime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:02 AM "I also prefer to rely on rational, dispassionate sources and to stay away from propaganda." You have been given no propaganda Joe - unless you regard press reports of actual events as such You have put forward a great deal yourself Refusing to respond to such information is as "irrational as it gets. Once you take an interest in Israel the facts speak for themselves How dare you accuse half the world, in cluding groups like Amnesty, Human Rihghts Watch, Medicins Sans Frontieres, Robert Fisk.... et al, of peddling "propaganda You really have chosen your side, havent you I see there was little point in posting The Inequality Report, but as with Keith, Bobad and Bearded Bruce, it wasn't aimed at closed minds. Respond to what has been posted or stand disgraced as someone who just doesn't want to lnow Lies or facts - make up your mind Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM By the way, do you believe the Pope to be an Antisemite? That was one link you've ignored to date Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:24 AM The Inequality Report certainly gives the lie to the notion that the Israeli regime is striving for greater equality and an end to discrimination, and they seem to have done little to fight prejudicial views among Jewish citizens. The report is without hype and drama and deals largely with unarguable statistics. It makes for uncomfortable reading. Inequalities arise in every country and the US and UK have absolutely nothing to brag about in this regard. But this report shows that much of the inequality in Israel arises from discriminatory practices which are largely deliberate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:50 AM This interesting letter from this morning's Irish Times seems to put things in a nutshell Jim Carroll ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN OCCUPIED TERRITORIES Sir, - We, concerned citizens of Israel, are writing to you re?garding the Control of Econom?ic Activity (Occupied Territo?ries) Bill 2018, which was brought to our attention and which is due to be debated in Seaanad Eireann on January 30th.(Irish Senate) We urge Ireland to support any legislation that will help en?force differentiation between Israel per se and the settlements in the occupied territories of the West Bank and East Jerusa?lem. The Israeli occupation of the territories beyond the 1967 bor?ders, ongoing for more than 50 years with no end in sight, is not only unjust but also stands in vi?olation of numerous UN resolu?tions. UN Security Council Res?olution 2334 of December 23rd, 2016, adopted 14:1 by the Security Council (the US ab?stained), calls for the interna?tional community to differenti?ate between its relations with Is?rael per se within its 1967 bor?ders and its dealings with the Is?raeli settlements in the occu?pied territories. We are convinced that Isra?el's ongoing occupation of the Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is morally and strategically unsus?tainable, is detrimental to peace, and poses a threat to the security of Israel itself. It has been enabled by the le?niency of the international com?munity, whose rhetoric regard?ing the dire situation in Pales?tine has not been matched by ap?propriate action. While Ireland, along with the rest of the EU, considers the oc?cupation illegal, it continues to economically sustain it by trad?ing with illegal Israeli settle?ments established in clear and direct violation of international law. The occupation has been correctly identified by succes?sive Irish governments as a ma?jor obstacle to peace, which we believe remains attainable should we see the termination of the occupation and the reali?sation of the two-state para?digm that would lead to the emergence of a sovereign State of Palestine alongside Israel. It is clear to us that genuine reconciliation between Israel and Palestine, Israelis and Pal?estinians, is possible only if the paradigm of two separate and independent states prevails. As people who care deeply for Israel's future and long for our country to live in peace with its neighbours, we urge you to support the aforementioned Bill.-Yours, etc, URIAVNERY, Former member of Knesset, Sheli Party; Prof ELIE BARNAVI, Former ambassador to France; ILAN BARUCH, former ambassador to South Africa, Namibia, Botswana and Zimbabwe; MICHAEL BEN-YAIR, Former attorney-general of Israel; former acting supreme court justice; ROMAN BRONFMAN, Former member of Knesset, Meretz Party; AVRAHAM AVRUM BURG, Former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party, Former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel; Prof NAOMI CHAZAN, former member of Knesset, Meretz Party, former president, New Israel Fund; YAEL DAYAN, former member of Knesset, Labor Party, former deputy mayor of Tel Aviv; Prof ITZHAK GALNOOR, former head of the Israeli Civil Service Commission, professor emeritus at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem; ERELA HADAR, former ambassador to the Czech Republic; Prof DAVID HAREL, vice-president, Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, computer scientist, Israel Prize recipient (2004) and EMET Prize laureate (2010); DANIKARAVAN, Sculptor, Israel Prize recipient (1977); MIKIKRATSMAN, Artist, EMET Prize laureate (2011); ALEXLEVAC, photojournalist, Israel Prize recipient (2005); Dr ALONLIEL, former director general of Ministry of Foreign Affairs, former ambassador to South Africa and Turkey; Prof YEHUDA JUDDNE'EMAN, Filmmaker, Israel Prize recipient (2009); TZALIRESHEF, former member of Knesset, Labor Party; Prof ZEEV STERNHELL, Political scientist, Israel Prize recipient (2008); DAVID TARTAKOVER, Designer, Israel Prize recipient (2002). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:02 AM There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which Jewish property was confiscated and retitled, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:11 AM Yeah, right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM "There are no illegal settlements " Course there aren't Bobad - what doi those ex-Knesset or United nations, or Human Rights members know about **** *** Why trust them when we have our own expert who knows so much that he blames the Jewish People for every crime committed by the the Israeli regime Keep up the good work Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 01:59 PM Jim says: How dare you accuse half the world, in cluding groups like Amnesty, Human Rihghts Watch, Medicins Sans Frontieres, Robert Fisk.... et al, of peddling "propaganda. You really have chosen your side, havent you Jim, let me say this again: I am not disagreeing with you. I don't know of Robert Fisk, but all the others you list are agencies that I consider to be very credible sources of information. I do not deny the plight of Palestinians, but I have trying to study and understand what is happening in Israel in a rational manner, devoid of posturing and propaganda. If we stay on the stage of yelling and accusations and do not study the situation deeply, all we will have in the end is yelling and accusations - and no progress. The agencies you list HAVE studied the situation in a dispassionate, objective manner. Many of them have accomplished great things. But how much do WE understand of what they have learned. How can I blend what they have to say with my valid personal experience, and make sense of things? From what I could see, it seems that living conditions for Arabs in Israel, are similar to those of Mexicans living here in California. There are a few who have become very successful, but most are working-class people. Many are gardeners and dishwashers, or work in similar jobs. They do not have the access to education that Jewish Israelis have. But generally, they have adequate food and housing and other essentials. My personal observations make me suspect that there are many Jewish people in Israel, mostly recent immigrants, who live in similar conditions. The difference is that these immigrants can assimilate and succeed, and the Arabs who have lived in Palestine for generations do not have that hope. For Arabs in Palestine, the situation is more like life for lower-class Mexicans in Mexico - most seem to be living on the brink of poverty, with no hope of getting out. Back in 1999, I heard one Israeli speak of Palestinians as "always wanting something for nothing." It reminded me of how some Americans talk of welfare recipients - blaming people for their poverty, with no sympathy or understanding for the hopeless conditions these people live in. A few messages above, Steve posted a lengthy excerpt from Wikipedia about conditions for Arabs in Israel. It seems to be quite accurate and objective, and it's worthy of consideration. But back to the Anti-Defamation League - I think they give an accurate representation of mainstream thought among Jewish Israelis. They express what Jewish Israelis believe, whether or not those beliefs are correct. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:00 PM Fine, then leave the "propaganda" bit out of the conversation Joe - it confuses things Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM And yet, in the cities of Israel and Palestine, living conditions for the common people seem to be far better than what I saw in Egypt. I do not know about village life in Palestine, and life in the refugee camps. I suspect that life in the camps in Palestine is similar to what I saw in the slums of Cairo and in the "City of the Dead" cemeteries that tens of thousands call home in Cairo. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM "Jim, let me say this again: I am not disagreeing with you." So what Joe? These countries are historically impoverished states - Israel is wealthy and powerful You compare the position of people living within a state, not to those living elsewhere Go read the Inequality Report and you'll find it's not just about living conditions, it's how people are teated, what rghts they have, their security, the say they have in their lives and the right to be treated as human beings.... and many more things This area has been home to Arabs for thousands of years and now they live with the risk of being driven out of it to make room for people of a different culture - ethnically cleansed. Even the Nazis were able to produce films showing how well-off Jews were in the concentration camps You really do need to get your head around what is happening in Israel Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 03:39 PM [Sigh] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:01 PM I know exactly what you mean Joe Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM Man, Jim, you really love dem Nazis! You can't lay off trying to put the girl in bed with the guy who raped her! Even Hollywood is gettin' tired of this kind of harrassment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:48 PM Well, let's get back to something of substance. I wanted to reply to this post from above: Thread #163483 Message #3901716 Posted By: bobad 25-Jan-18 - 12:52 PM Thread Name: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
The myth of an indigenous "Palestinian" population that had it's land stolen from them by the Jews is simply that - a myth. In fact this CENSUS done by a Dutchman, Hadriani Relandi in 1695 finds virtually no Arab presence whatsoever in Palestine. That's all well and good, Bobad, but this photo (click) shows two very obvious pieces of evidence that contradict what you have to say:
And Bobad, those were real bulldozers that destroyed the homes where Palestinians had lived for generations, so that they could build their fancy Jewish condominium "settlements." That was the paragon of cruelty, and the whole world is outraged by those huge, fancy, military-guarded "settlements." I saw those settlements with my own eyes - they are beautiful, but they are an outrage. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM Kinda blows your "Jews legitimately purchased unoccupied territory" all to smithereens, doesn't it? You're conflating two different things there Joe, but I get why you're doing that and you're not the only one to do it. Also you are putting words in my mouth - just thought I would point that out. You do know that the Dome of the Rock was built by invading Arab colonizers who displaced the Jews and that it was built on the former Jewish temple that had been destroyed by the Roman colonizers don't you? Or do you believe Abbas' revisionist history when he says that there was never a Jewish presence there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:26 PM Land Ownership in Palestine 1880-1948 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:54 PM Anti-Defamation League ...an accurate representation of mainstream thought among Jewish Israelis. And therein lies a good part of the problem, Joe, dunnit? Since a lot of what they believe is simply not true- rather like our own Trumpists- and the ADL does its best to perpetuate the myths and misrepresentations - rather like our own Fux News and/or Breitbart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:24 PM Something to think about by those so eager to perpetuate the classic anti-Semitic trope that the Jews stole the land of the Palestinians: Land stolen from Jews in Arab countries equals over 100,000 sq. km: nearly five times the entire size of the state of Israel pre-1967 (22,000 sq. km) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM But Mommie! Billy hit me first! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM "...and the ADL does its best to perpetuate the myths and misrepresentations..." True. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM Not exactly an unbiased source, bobad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:46 PM Not exactly an unbiased source, bobad. So point any factual errors and we'll examine them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:54 PM Why does it have to be "factual errors?" The overall tone is tendentiously anti-Arab and racist. The perspective is the thing, bobad. The Daily Mail is exceptionally careful to avoid anything that can be called "a factual error," yet is still a scurrilous rag. To deny these things is to be disingenuous in the extreme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:55 PM Yup, thought so - you're so effing transparent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:42 PM Sorry, it's you who isn't answering. The challenge is that your source is biased, it has an anti-Arab racist tone and that it tries to conceal the bias with "moderate" language. I read exactly the same kind of "reasonable" language in Iain Smith's illegal constitution for Southern Rhodesia after he'd declared UDI in the 60s. Very carefully-couched tones that made it look so reasonable that whites were given 49% of the land while twenty times as many blacks were given 51%. Needless to say, the whites got the oil and the blacks got the grease. My two uncles kept families of "servants," the main man known as the house boy, in shacks at the edge of their land. Those "chappies" were told that they should be grateful as they were a damn sight better off there than living out in the bush or in any of the neighbouring countries. Now where have I heard that argument before? I know that you will stick to your guns but it's still worth pointing out to anyone left reading this that they should read your source with eyes wide open, look at its origin and look for unbiased ones as well while they're at it. And I'm not insulting you, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jan 18 - 12:54 AM So, Bobad, can you give us a little history of the presence of Jews in the Levant from the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD until the Jews began moving to Israel through the Zionist movement of the 19th century? History shows the continuing presence of Muslims in Jerusalem since the Dome of the Rock was built in 691 CE. Otherwise, with whom did the Crusaders do battle? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jan 18 - 03:36 AM OK, so Bobad quotes a document titled LAND OWNERSHIP IN PALESTINE, 1880?1948, from the Rohr Jewish Learning Institute. I'm not sure which document Steve is calling "anti-Arab and racist" in tone, but that description certainly fits this document. Here's a passage from the document that's a pretty good summary of the whole thing. It's more-or-less consistent with my understanding - that the lands were owned by absentee landlords, mostly Ottoman Turks, who left the residents alone as long as they paid reasonably low rents. There was no system that allowed the Palestinians to take ownership of the lands where they lived. The Jews legitimately bought the land from the absentee landlords, leaving the Palestinians without homes. I'm having a hard time understanding why Bobad considers that to be justice. Here's the excerpt:
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM "Man, Jim, you really love dem Nazis! " Since meeting to many of their lookalikes on this thread I've learned to live with 'em Robo The first time I heard what was happening in Israel compared to what happened under the Nazis was when a Holocaust survive made the comparison back in the 1960s (about twenty five years after she had experienced the real thing first hand) The last time I heard it from anybody with authority on the subject was while watching the documentary film, 'The Gatekeepers', when an ex director of the Israeli security group, Shin Bet made the comparison " 70 AD until the Jews began moving to Israel through the Zionist movement of the 19th century?" Why on earth are we discussing what happened centuries even millennia ago as part of what is happening in today's Israel? Maybe when we've finished, perhaps we can go on to discuss whether Native Americans have a greater right to occupy the United States than do the present incumbents !!! Similarly, comparing the living standards of Arabs living in Israel with that of Egypt or neighbouring countries is somewhat reminiscent of arguments put forward by supporters of slavery who pointed out that plantation slaves lived better lives in bondage than they did "back home in Africa" Stupid and inhuman The land is occupied by Arabs and Jews - that is the situation at the present time and has been for many centuries; to attempt to change that by force is Ethnic Cleansing and that is what is happening in Israel - it is also what is being argued for here Much of the trouble of the world today is directly traceable back to British rule under the Empire - Israel is a prime example of the mess left behind when Britain departed. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM "Rohr Jewish Learning Institute" A religious organisation founded in 1999 with 117,500 enrolled members Hardly an unbiased authority with a confirmed reputation Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 18 - 06:01 AM Didn't have time last night and I'm a bit pushed today, but I was going to go through that document and illustrate what I meant by tendentiously anti-Arab and racist. "Factual errors" is absolutely NOT the issue. If it continues to simmer I'll do it later on today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM Yesterday the Irish senate debated a bill supporting Irish support for B.D.S. Netanyahu has summoned the Irish ambassador to protest such a debate Since when...... Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:28 AM Yesterday the Irish senate debated a bill supporting Irish support for B.D.S. No surprise there considering the behaviour of the Irish government during WWII. |
