BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???

Subject: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:07 AM

If Russia didn't do it - who did - and why ???


.. and if If Russia did do it - how come it's such a sloppy job ???
Ineptitude, or a deliberate ploy to make the job look amateurish...?????

This is a thread not so much for jumping to hasty convenient conclusions,
but for creative immaginative conspiracy theories,
that might inadvertently get us closer to the truth.....???????????????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:27 AM

What I can't understand is that whoever did it waited so long. I believe Skripal came here after having been exchanged for British double agents in 2010.
And how did the perpetrators carry the nerve agent and smear it on the car door handle without dying immediately themselves? The personnel dealing with the crime scene are wearing extremely protective suits like astronauts. One would have noticed someone dressed like that lurking around the car surely?
It's similar to Litvinenko's killing using polonium. The people who did that would probably die too. The entire place was radioactive afterwards.
I think the nerve agent used was developed by the Russians, and unobtainable here.
Normally, one would want incontrovertible proof before enraging Putin et al. But to me there's no other credible explanation.
What worries me is that it's demonstrating just how few allies we have, and our own defence systems are woeful now. We're just a small nation with no teeth. It's a bit foolhardy to antagonise the Russians without huge provocation. Like poking a lion with a stick.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:27 AM

The conspiracy theory that I hear being repeated is that either Putin or his supporters did it, and made it's Russian origins fairly obvious, in order to enhance his image of the 'strong man' prior to the upcoming elections.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:46 AM

It was Keith...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:48 AM

Well, Porton Down got £48 million out of it for a suspiciously ready expansion plan...just sayin'...
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:54 AM

That's possible but I'd have thought he wouldn't have considered the game worth the candle. Western leaders who are ganging up to point the finger at the leadership in Russia either know things that we (including Jeremy Corbyn) don't know or they are being opportunistic in finding an excuse to attack Putin. Don't get me wrong - Putin NEEDS attacking for all sorts of reasons. But let's make those reasons legitimate, and let's apply the "beyond reasonable doubt" measure. Corbyn is being a bit clumsy here. In no time at all (already for all I know) he'll have the Mail branding him a Putin-loving commie.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:55 AM

That was to Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:28 AM

Hahaha Steve! Headline of today's Daily Mail:-

CORBYN, THE KREMLIN'S STOOGE

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:40 AM

Boringly predictable.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:45 AM

If there's definite proof of the Kremlin's involvement I think the government should spell it out to us. It currently has the feel of the whole country rushing to judgement on the back of insufficient information, so, to that extent, I'm with Corbyn, though he could have handled things much better.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:18 PM

One of the things that is puzzling me a bit is why whoever is using a Soviet era poison. Someone on the radio was saying if it was some stolen in the USSR era it would have lost some of its effectiveness due to age. No idea if that is true, and it is quite possible that effect would be smaller if it was kept in 'ideal conditions', but it seems a bit odd if they manufacture today something old and traceable, rather than something more up to date and less detectable, and I am sure such things exist.   The only good rationale would be deniability, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:22 PM

The other thing where everyone seems agreed but is worth a question: everyone seems to assume he was the target and the daughter is an accidental victim. Do we really know that?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:22 PM

Polonium and nerve agent seem a bit drastic to me. If one must kill people, why not just shoot them at home with a silencer? If the murderers want to identify themselves as Russian avengers, they could leave a short note on the corpses. "Told you so!" or some such. (in Russian of course)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:25 PM

By the way, do we know yet how the poor chap and his daughter are faring? If they survive, they'll need some very high-level protection for the rest of their lives, like Salman Rushdie.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:31 PM

it is sometimes convenient for a government to have a bogey man it unites the country behind the incumbent government.
It has happened many times before

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:38 PM

The conspiracy theory I heard was that this was a false-flag or is being used as one by those stirring up the shit against Syria and Russia . The Salisbury incident creates fevered anti-Russian chemical weapons hysteria in the West after which pro-Western militants in Eastern Ghouta stage a chemical attack on their own people as they did in 2013. Then the US and UK have the excuse they need to bomb Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

Are we taling about Russia freed from the yoke of Communism?
They're the good guys now, aren't they!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:48 PM

The government isn't going to reveal its source for the information and why would it as that would likely put lives in jeopardy. These recently synthesized nerve agents leave behind telltale signatures in their breakdown products. I'm sure the "west" has gleaned much information from Vil Mirzayanov who had a top level role in the development and testing of these agents, in violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention to which Russia is a signatory. Mr.Mirzayanov now lives in exile in the US after being charged with treason for revealing the secret chemical weapons program.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:55 PM

The government should reveal its source for the information as that would allow people to check the source out. The international community believing that Iraq had sourced yellow cake from Africa led to the deaths of an estimated million Iraqis .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:01 PM

"Mr.Mirzayanov now lives in exile in the US after being charged with treason for revealing the secret chemical weapons program.
Lucky old Mr.Mirzayanov considering how some states treat people who do similar, eh Bobad!
THe behaviour of many of the former communist countries have become extremely disturbing over the last few decades - Yugoslavia being one of the worst examples - the re-emergence of fascism being another
The WEst were happy to stand by silently while Russia carried out irts atrocities in Syria and used vetooes to allow the main perpetrator to go unchecked - even to allow them to interfere in Western elections,
Pity it took a terrorist attack on Britain to galvanise them into action
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:19 PM

This is where traditional folksong can lead us to the eternal verities....

who put the bom in the bom bom bom, bombom?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:27 PM

The government should reveal its source for the information as that would allow people to check the source out.

Don't be a bloody idiot - this is spy stuff - you don't seem to have any idea about how this works.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:38 PM

Yes but this is being played out in the full glare of the media (which it didn't have to be) and Theresa May's government is deliberately standing by while the media whips the people into an anti-Russia fest on very selective information. That half-way house, playing it out in public yet not giving us the information (which they may or may not have) we need in order to pin this firmly on Russia, is highly irresponsible. We are being manipulated.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:43 PM

"We are being manipulated."

Well I never! You just cannot trust politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:44 PM

Would it have made more sense to be co-operative rather than confrontational? If It was nothing to do with the Russian government it would be in everyone's interest to work together in tracing the real culprits. Of course that would not make May look like the strong leader she isn't and it would not help Putin enhance his tough guy image.

Cynical? Me?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:51 PM

France and Germany were both hedging until they had more info, they have now come out denouncing Russia so obviously they have received information with which they are satisfied. Nobody reveals the extent of their information and its source in this game otherwise those channels will cease to be available.......duh!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:25 PM

Innocent until proven guilty is a stance unrecognised by the political class. We went to war in Iraq on the story of weapons of mass destruction, and the expert that said it was a load of bollocks was accused of being a Walter Mitty until he was "offed"( a Walter Mitty clever enough to be recruited to head up Porton Down).We attack Syria with cruise missiles because the White Helmets said the government was using Sarin (yet to be proven) and we still have the MSM repeating their every discredited word.
Have you noticed how all these politicians are very careless with other people's lives. Once upon a time the leader used to lead the troops into battle. Perhaps that custom should return. When forced to recognise that actions have consequences sanity might just prevail, especially when bossman is first above the parapet.
This whole affair is simply ratcheting up tension between Russia and the west. Who or what stands to gain from such provocations? I cannot see how Putin or Russia benefits from this affair and I suspect other players are involved. If Gladio was real, and created false flag attacks then anything is possible. Black and white is too simple.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:29 PM

The government has revealed the necessary information to its trusted allies, France, Germany and the US. They are not going to reveal it to you and me and the Russians for obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:41 PM

"The government has revealed the necessary information to its trusted allies,"
Maybe, maybe not. So far all that supposedly is known is what the poison is. Who made it? and who delivered it? we would not expect to be told anyway. The Russians could have killed the victims before exchanging them. Exchange is not going to work very well in the future, if there is a suspicion cleaning up will be performed at a later date. It all seems to have been solved far too quickly and cleanly for me to believe a word of it. Maybe in 50 years time the true story will come out.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:47 PM

You keep saying that. I can't think of a single "obvious reason" why we can't be told if there is clinching evidence, but I can think of plenty of nefarious "obvious reasons" why they won't tell us. As I said, we're being manipulated and May is letting the hysterical gutter press whip up anti-Russia passion. Which is precisely what she wants.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:49 PM

That was to bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:57 PM

Putin is doing the same in Russia, Steve. Makes you think there is about to be an election and he wants to gain popular support or something. Oh, hang on...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:01 PM

And how did the perpetrators carry the nerve agent and smear it on the car door handle without dying immediately themselves?

in a glass capsule fired at a distance from an umbrella-like air-gun?
Firearm not contaminated, safe to remove to a safe location and dispose of it. Porton Down probably know, but aren't saying. With Georgi Markov it was a minicule hollow metal pellet filled with sarin fired or jabbed from a brolly. You don't need much (a raindrop would kill a big room) - that's the point of nerve agents.

we're being manipulated and May is letting the hysterical gutter press whip up anti-Russia passion.

The Falklands never did any harm to Maggie - just saying.
Now where can I buy a tin hat & air-raid shelter?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:25 PM

Iraq didn't do Blair much good, nor the rest of us, come to think of it. Nor a million Iraqis...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:33 PM

Extraordinary joint statement from the UK, France, Germany and the US:

“This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War. It is an assault on U.K. sovereignty and any such use by a state party is a clear violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention and a breach of international law. It threatens the security of us all. We share the U.K. assessment that there is no plausible alternative explanation, and note that Russia’s failure to address the legitimate request by the U.K. government further underlines its responsibility. We call on Russia to address all questions related to the attack in Salisbury. Russia should in particular provide full and complete disclosure of the Novichok programme to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.” It concludes: “We call on Russia to live up to its responsibility as a member of the U.N. Security Council to uphold international peace and security.”

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:39 PM

Strong stuff, but none of that is concrete evidence. It wouldn't get you convicted in a court, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:52 PM

The evidence is enough to convince France, Germany and the US but not Steve Shaw. I know who I put my money on.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:08 PM

There is absolutely no need for you to make this personal.

Your repeating mantra seems to be that we must trust our politicians and not ask questions. Really?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:15 PM

Your repeating mantra seems to be that you should be privy to top level classified information - I don't believe the government thinks you're that important.

This gave me a chuckle though: Breaking: First Russian diplomat expelled from the UK:

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:32 PM

Well what kind of top-level classified information might that be that could conceivably give any advantage to Russia? Give us some examples! You are far too trusting of our innocent, straightforward, honest, non-manipulating politicians. Ha. By the way, do you apply the same trust to our politicians on brexit? The vast majority of parliamentarians in this country wanted remain, and, by your measure, we should have trusted them and not asked people who know less than they do to decide in a referendum. How are you on that?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:46 PM

Well what kind of top-level classified information might that be that could conceivably give any advantage to Russia?

Duh.......revealing sources for identifying the agent employed for one.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:27 PM

No sources that put people in danger need be revealed, but some hard evidence about the nerve agent and the derivatives from its breakdown, that have been claimed to possess fingerprints as to their precise origin, wouldn't harm anyone. Let's face it. That evidence isn't there. The evidence we've been given is all circumstantial. Stuff like, oh, typical Russian behaviour. Russia has form. They refused to kowtow to a weak prime minister's demand for answers. But the nerve agent has been around for decades, there's some in Porton Down and there's some in a lab in America somewhere. The man who invented the stuff has lived in America for over 20 years. Rogues and gangsters have always managed to get their hands on stuff they shouldn't have and they always will. I think it's more than possible that the Russian state is directly responsible for this. But that wouldn't get you convicted beyond reasonable doubt in a court and the only thing I can think of is that our weak leaders actually want a cold war. Didn't do Thatcher and Reagan any harm. Reread 1984. Nothing keeps you strong with your electorate like a foreign enemy, especially when you are shaky at home.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:48 PM

I am 'prepared' to believe that Russia orchestrated these poisonings and others and is not too concerned that they be subtle. Because there is the message, meant to be personal, that you don't "F--k" with Mother Russia, no matter what party is in control. It is emotional. Putin is emotional. If you have any doubt, check out the closeups on him during the opening of the 2014 Olympics in Sochi. And recall the extreme and rather obvious, in retrospect, efforts the Soviets, I mean Russians, went to to inflate their athletes' performances.
We are in a new era of strongmen. Putin, Erdogan, whatever pos is running Poland and Xi in China, and Merdegras in Venezuela. And Wayne LaPierre in NRA. Their solution to extremism is more of same.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:57 PM

The head of Putin's secret police hinting that maybe it was the Ukraine who was behind Skripal's poisoning should tell you all you need to know.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 08:06 PM

It tells us that he's probably a prat and very little else, certainly nothing like what we need to know. But that nerve agent has been around for decades and there are phials of it in places beyond Russia, and there are gangsters and mafiosi and plenty of people who hate Russia and...Ok, then, don't listen...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 02:28 AM

When The Beast of Grantham's political career was going down the shitter, she created the Falklands War to save herself. Perhaps this is May's 'Falklands'?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43343805/russian-exile-skripal-targeted-by-criminal-gangs?SThisFB

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 02:58 AM

Errr, at the risk of repeating myself, it will not do Putin's popularity at home much harm either. On the news last night the reporter in Moscow mentioned that the Russian for 'the woman that spoils it all' is a phrase being bandied about when referring to May.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:00 AM

"Duh.......revealing sources for identifying the agent employed for one."
JUST LIKE THE GOOD OLD DAYS
Some people never learn, do they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:12 AM

I think that that is entirely possible. But I'm not desperately scrabbling around for alternatives wacky theories (I'll leave that to the God-squadders :-) ) as it does seem very likely that the Russian state is involved. Too many things simply don't fit. For example, why would Putin threaten the World Cup? Thing is, Russia is just as full of gangsters as anywhere else. It's laughable to suggest that it's impossible that after thirty-odd years of the poison's existence somebody who shouldn't have has got hold of some. It definitely suits Theresa May to be able to look tough and point the finger at Putin. When you've got the Mail and the Express and the Tory party behind you, as well as all those disaffected Blairites who never waste an opportunity to reopen old rifts, you can make your accusations look respectable and you know that Putin's star is so low in the west that no-one will believe his protestations. He knows that too. At the end of the day chucking out diplomats just looks weedy, and any extra sanctions on Russia will be just as weedy. After all, we need their gas. Cheers, Thatcher, for that.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:12 AM

That was to BWM.