BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 05:00 AM

To get a true perspective of the highland clearances it needs to be studied in the context of it's time. Over the same time period of the clearances an agricultural revolution was occurring in England and the Industrial revolution was making it's first tentative steps. At the same time the enclosure acts were created.
Between 1604 and 1914, over 5,200 individual enclosure acts were passed, covering 6.8 million acres(about 1/6 land area of England, I think) The impact on the individual peasant was similar to the cleared highlanders, in that they also were dispossessed. It never became a headline grabber though. Rights of housebote and firebote were lost aswoodland was enclosed and the openfield system terminated in most places. In reality, for the individual impacted, enclosure has the same outcome - no land, no house and no prospects apart from the slow growth of the factories.
The aristocracy owned Parliament, created all the enclosure acts, and also preferred sheep to tenants in some cases. They still comprise the
major landowners in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 03:24 AM

I think one should include the Wars of Scottish Independence when considering relations between the Scots and the English. I lived in Edinburgh and Glasgow consecutively for ten years, and eventually it dawned on me just how much the English were detested 'up there'.
As I said, my name was very Scottish, and I took on the accent of both cities, which helped my integration.

My bibulous Scottish boyfriend took me to many rugby matches between Scotland and England. I was under strict instructions not to shout for the latter or I'd be flattened.

When 'O Flow'r of Scotland' was bellowed out by the Scottish supporters, the animosity and hatred were palpable.

He once took me to his parent's house in Fife for 'tea'. His family were aghast that he'd actually got an English girlfriend, and positively bristled when I arrived. I was very young and vulnerable, and it was awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Allan Conn
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 02:57 AM

It is the other posters, including myself, who pointed out that Scots were involved in the Clearances. The vast bulk of the Clearers were Scots either Highlanders or Lowlanders. My very first post itself confirmed they were an anglicised upper-class land owning section of the Scottish population so no-one was "ignoring" that. Likewise are you really suggesting that writers like Sorley Mclean are attacking Gaelic and Gaelic culture? He was a native Gael and one of the most important figures of the Gaelic language movement of the 20thC. He didn't make excuses for the Clearances (and I can't see anyone replying to you doing that either) he simply pointed out those responsible. Likewise the idea that Scottish people (of Highland descent but it'd be as relevant if they weren't) are racist against Gaels because they point out that the landed class were responsible for the Clearances rather than "the English" is clearly absurd. You know we are largely a pretty confident bunch now and quite capable of looking at our own history and recognising the nation's skeletons in the cupboards without trying to blame every ill that ever befell us on those "evil English". I think I know who the racist is. Where are you? North America somewhere? In truth what has any English person ever done to you to make you so full of hatred?

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Allan Conn
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 02:42 AM

Sorley Maclean from Raasay, arguably the most important Gaelic poet of the 20thC and a campaigner for Gaelic in Scottish schools and he himself was a teacher on Skye, addresses the issue of poetry from the Clearance period in his book "Ris a Bhruthaich - The Criticism and Prose Writings".

He gives instances of poets who pointed the finger at the instigators of Clearance but a lot of the time everyone is blamed (the English, the Lowlanders, the Shepherds, even the sheep) except those actually responsible.

On one poet it causes him to write "the poem goes on to describe the desolation of the Highlands and to express with great power and even a physical contempt for the Lowland shepherds and farmers, their manners, their talk, their whole being, but not a disparaging word of the noble landlords whose pockets were being filled by the high rents paid by the shepherd farmers. I wonder if Ailean Dall's failure to indict the real authors of the villainy was due to stupidy, or to the intellectual confusion of the day, or to his intention of seeking patronage and subsciptions".

His point is addressed also at Mairi Mhor one of the prominent poets who wrote about the Clearances.

"It is only too common a feature of Gaelic poetry to blame Englishmen and Lowlanders for the crimes of Highland chiefs. This tendency gets an absurd expression in Mairi Mhor's wish to drive the Sasunnaich from Skye, where nearly all the principle Clearars had names at least as Gaelic as her own.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:54 PM

I wrote 5 Highland Clearance songs in 1966, 4 years before the excellent Cheviot, the Stag and the Black, Black Oil. They were recorded and I know Joe McGrath borrowed the LP from a mutual friend.

The Shores of Sutherland
Smile in your Sleep
The Fire Raisers
Henny Munroe
The Laird's Prayer.

I read the book Gloomy Memories by Donald McLeod which was originally published as a series of letters. His title was in answer to Harriet Beecher Stowe's book "Sunny Memories", written after her visit to Scotlamd where she stayed with the Duchess of Sutherland. Some of the post above are correct in pointing out the perpetrators who drove and burnt some of people out were Scottish.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM

We found flights from Norwich to Edinburgh to be actually cheaper than the train Bonzo. And it takes only 1 hour!

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 05:05 AM

Scotland's most expensive country estate sold for £10million!

I did the annual accounts of this estate for 3 years in the 1980s. I remember the partner in Binder Hamlyn (Chartered Accountants) going ballistic because I booked a flight to Edinburgh instead of going 2nd class on the night sleeper!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Allan Conn
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 03:02 AM

James Hogg's "A Tour Of The Highlands in 1803" is an interesting read. It is a series of letter addressed to Sir Walter Scott. Hogg writes about his displeasure at certain lands being sold off to what he calls Lowland Gentlemen but he also gives direct accounts of talks with Highland Lairds who are looking to increase their rents. One is with Mackenzie of Dundonnel. Dundonnel took the Ettrick Shepherd on a tour of his estate and asked him how much could be gained by putting sheep on it. Hogg said he only had a superficial view of it but estimated certainly not below £2,000 per annum. Dundonnel said that he was loath to chase his people away to America - but said they would not even pay him half of that and confirmed it was only at present £700 per annum. Hogg states though.................."He hath, however, the pleasure of absolute sway. He is even more so in his domains than Bonaparte is in France. I saw him call two men from their labour a full mile, just to carry us through the water. I told he he must not expect to be served thus by shepherds if once he had given them possession"

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:45 PM

There were a number of "plastic"clan chiefs betrayed their clans in order to fund the highlife in London . It is a complex story and would take volumes to do justice to the subject.
https://cranntara.scot/clear.htm

Today in the highlands 85 privately owned estates account for about a third of the total land area. 600 for about 50%.

The establishment of crofts has also been a contentious issue.

http://socialist-courier.blogspot.ie/2012/05/crofters-wars.html

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM

I don't really think a thread on the Highland Clearances need go down an "everything is the fault of the evil English"avenue. Sure there were some individual English landlords involved but the bulk of the people who evicted people off the land were Scots and pretty often themselves Highlanders. They might have been an anglicised upper land-owning section of the Scottish population but they were still Scots. Senoufou is correct in saying it was about profitability. Very much a class issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:52 AM

I think too that it was about money and making the land profitable to its owners. The crofters were 'in the way' so without regard to the fact they were human beings, out they went.
In the past, the English have held this 'we are superior to all other peoples' idea, and it was behind most of the social injustices perpetrated over the centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 04:26 PM

They were indeed

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 04:01 PM

Were they Clan MacGregor Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:43 PM

Senoufou. My ancestors were children of the mist.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:23 PM

We may have done meself. But as I can hardly remember what I did yesterday, two years ago represents the Mists of Time for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: meself
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:18 PM

Senoufou: didn't we go through this with some other branches of our respective families a couple of years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: JMB
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:03 PM

I'm a MacGillivray myself and some people say that some of us were sheep thieves as a joke. My Daa told me that sheep and cattle theft was a serious offence in those days. My brother in Toronto told his co-workers that as a joke we were sheep thieves. They found themselves on a business trip somewhere and there was a portrait of people and one of them was holding a sheep in his arm. A coworker of my brother spotted it and cried MacGillivrays and they all started roaring with laughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:03 PM

Ha meself, we may be distantly related!

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: meself
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 06:31 PM

My mother is a MacKay, and an older cousin from that side of the family - the 'distaff' side, that is (I've always wanted to use that term) - once told about his brief visit to Sutherland, by way of paying homage to our roots while he was in the neighbourhood on business. When he told a local that he was a MacKay from Canada, the local informed him that the MacKays were known as sheep-thieves. Cuz and I got a great laugh out of that - it wasn't till much later that it occurred to me that the MacKays would have been thrown off their land and replaced with sheep, so - whaddya expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: JMB
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:21 PM

Speaking of Sutherland, that region was one of the hardest hit regions of the Clearances, and to this day, the population has never recovered. In Duthaich Mhic Aoidh (MacKay Country), it tells of Patrick Sellar and the Duke and Duchess of Sutherland clearing the area and making room for sheep.. The song speaks as if on the passing away of Sellar. The song starts as My curse upon the great sheep, and also refers to Iutharna, an ancient Gaidhlig term for He'll, and the preference of consorting with Judas rather than Sellar. It is performed by the magnificent Kathleen Nic Aoghnais.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 06:49 AM

I really am a twit. It wasn't grouse the consortiums were exploiting, it was the deer of course. (Clue is in the word STAG) Dementia?

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 06:45 AM

Hahaha Bonne! (I'm sure you ARE bonne!)

I'm sure Mudcat is haunted. The other day I sat ready to write a post and the thing posted all by itself before I'd written a single word.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:33 AM

... notice correctly spelled own name...

Gah

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:31 AM

Ahhhhh rats... didn't mean to post, click was intended to Add To Tracer. (See what happens when I look at the Cat before I've had my morning coffee?)

Brilliant thread, guys - thanks for the heads-up Bonz. Back later when I can pay it some intelligent (i.e. caffeinated) attention...

Bonne x

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 04:05 AM

My Four Bears migrated south to Northumberland and became Geordies.
One went to Australia and became quite well-off as a sheep farmer.

I think both the displaced Scots and the Irish famine survivors were extremely tough and resourceful people. They migrated, taking their culture all over the world and succeeded under awful circumstances.
(I'm rather proud, as I'm a mixture of Scottish and Irish blood!)

But one can't forget that many thousands died from starvation and want due to the indifference and cruelty of the rich and greedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: meself
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 01:53 AM

Although, in the long run, I don't think the move to Canada was so bad - I'm just as glad my Four Bears ended up here ....

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 10:47 AM

I seem to remember a BBC play using the 'Romeo and Juliet' theme, (based on a historical incident), of a Highland village being destroyed and the occupants forcibly emigrated to Canada in order to provide the landlord a clear view of the Loch in front of his Stately Home
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 09:44 AM

That must have been the company that presented it in Edinburgh in 1973 Jim. They started on Benbecula I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:56 AM

"The production I saw must have been the first touring one,"
784 took the production on tor all over Scotland - the opening sequence of the film is of the company driving to a village somewhere in The Highlands and performing in a village hall
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM

The production I saw must have been the first touring one, it was in the early seventies and the theatre was packed. I've never since experienced such an atmosphere among an audience, it was almost like an SNP rally! I of course was bristling too on behalf of the people portrayed. The whole history of Scotland has been a tale of exploitation, cruelty and greed.
I like John McGrath's stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 05:10 AM

'The Cheviot, the Stag and The Black, Black Oil'
Absolutely superb
Have a copy of the television version of this done by the 784 Teatre Group, if anybody is interested
I think might have a VHS version of the equally excellent drama documentary of Maire Rhuad (Red Maggie), a songmaker who led the protests against the evictions - must try to get that digitised
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:44 PM

I spent three summers and three springs in a row in Sutherland in the seventies. I thought it was God's own country. One of those Easters was in 1976 when the weather was spectacularly good, and two of those summers were 1975 and 1976, which were both legendary great British summers. My good luck. Lamentably, I haven't been back since. My memories are treasurable.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:09 AM

I almost wished I'd made a badge to wear saying, 'Speaks English but is half-Scots and half-Irish. Please do not bash!'

Actually, the musical play showed how the Scots have been plundered, first by sheep farmers, then by unspeakable grouse-shooting consortiums paying landowners to have access to the grouse moors, then of course the oil/gas in the North Sea. None of these greedy folk had anything to do with Scotland except as a trough in which to poke their piggy snouts.
One song which stuck in my head was,
"We are the men who own your glen but you won't see us there!
In Edinburgh clubs and Guildford pubs we show how much we care!"
It all made a great impression on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 08:33 AM

I can well believe it !

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:57 AM

My ancestors were from Sutherland (my name is one of the small towns up there) and they were 'cleared'. (Clan Mackay) Fortunately they found work as fishermen, seamen and various things connected with the sea and gradually migrated down to NE England.

I once watched the musical 'The Cheviot, the Stag and The Black, Black Oil' in Edinburgh.(written by John McGrath) It portrays very evocatively the whole disgusting process of the Clearances and the cold-hearted unfeeling attitude of the landowners. Also the absolute exploitation of the area by a succession of predators with no roots or right to be there.
As I sat in the theatre I was careful not to use my English accent when talking to my companion. Luckily I can speak a very passable Scottish accent, so I passed muster. The atmosphere among the audience was electric with indignation and anger!

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:35 AM

There are thriving clan societies, but I do not think it is quite the same thing. One of them the Macgregors have a DNA project running to try to determine who they really are.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:57 AM

But the clan system was reborn in Canada and still thrives I understand!

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:42 AM

The Clearances caused the destruction of the clan system, accompanied by ethnic cleansing, because sheep were more valuable than people. It is estimated that during the entire period of the Clearances, some 150,000 Highlanders and Islanders were cleared from their ancestral lands. To give a sense of the scale of this relative to the overall population, the total number of people living in 1801 in what are now the council areas of Highland, Western Isles, and Argyll & Bute was 260,000. War, politics, economics and a anachronistic nature of the clan system all exerted pressures that created the monster of the clearances.

A letter to the government of 5 September 1775, represents the most important declaration of the relationship between government and the Highland landlord in the era of first phase clearance.
"the Highlanders were born to be soldiers and the Highlands ought to be considered as a nursery of strength and security to the kingdom"

I think they found out too late that putting a kilt on a sheep did not make a soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:38 AM

Yes, you would need the volume up loud to catch everything they say on a motorway! Murray Pittock is very clued up on Scottish history and has a very listenable voice to my ears. He has a book out on Culloden which I may buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:24 AM

It was very good but I found it a very heavy listen. The fact that I was trundling up the M5 and M6 at the time probably didn't help.

Subject: RE: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:18 AM

BBC Radio 4 "In Our Time" on 8 March!!!

Subject: BS: Excellent Highland Clearances discussion
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:15 AM

Murray Pittock is an authority on this.