BS: If Russia didn't do it..?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:26 AM

Turkey calls on US, Russia to heal Syria wounds

Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim is calling on the United States and Russia to work toward "healing wounds" in Syria, comparing their threats and exchanges of words to a street fight between "bullies."

Sounds like a sensible suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:30 AM

A good first step would be agreeing to the UN enquiry into the attack which Russia vetoed.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:32 AM

Also, Turkey could stop bombing the shit out of our brave allies the Kurds.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:32 AM

"Sounds like a sensible suggestion."

Probably a bit too sensible.
I wonder if our illustrious MPs have put a leash on May and the deranged mophead or should I say muppet?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:52 AM

A country that invaded and is illegally occupying northern Cyprus and its fascist dictator who is carrying out a brutal campaign in northern Syria giving advice to others to work toward "healing wounds" would be worthy of a Monty Python skit if not for the brutal reality that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:56 AM

Oh, I dunno. Is it any worse than the comedy going on in Washington?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:46 PM

The brutal reality is that the Turkish guy is not very nice and he engages in obnoxious activities but "a fascist dictator" he is not, and the story of Cyprus, which I know quite well, isn't as black and white as you paint it. It helps if we confine ourselves to the real realities and not the fake realities confected by your hatred of anything with even the slightest Muslim whiff.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:32 PM

your hatred of anything with even the slightest Muslim whiff.

This from a Jew hating apologist for anti-Semites......nice.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:46 PM

Bobad, I do know not of one poster on this site who hates Jews.

Read that carefully please, no one on this site hates Jews

and then read it again.

People may criticise the Israeli Government but that is NOT the same as hating Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:50 PM

Raggtash, I do know not of one poster on this site who hates Muslims.

Read that carefully please, no one on this site hates Muslims

and then read it again.

People may criticise Islamists (do look it up if you don't understand what it means) but that is NOT the same as hating Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:00 PM

You give a bloody good impression of hating Muslims then.

That is my last comment on this subject, I fear the thread will be closed if this continues.

Rights then good people, back to Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:18 PM

You give a bloody good impression of hating Jews then.

That is my last comment on this subject, I fear the thread will be closed if this continues.

Rights then good people, back to Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:30 PM

You're a pretty stupid man, bobad. I worded my criticism very carefully: "...your hatred of anything with even the slightest Muslim whiff."

No mention there of actual Muslims. So you respond with the worst, babyish, most splenetic insult you think you can muster, and which you're tediously and unimaginatively famous for here: "This from a Jew hating apologist for anti-Semites..." In Keith's cod-immortal words, you've lost.

You talk about brutal reality. Well here's a bit of brutal reality for you. I don't hate any Jews and number many Jews among my friends, as if the fact that they're Jews has any relevance whatsoever. It doesn't. I've battled against all forms of racism all my life. I hate all antisemitism and despise antisemites. Unlike you, I actually know what the terms mean and don't misuse them, as you deliberately do, to protect the Israeli regime from attack.

Now if you'll excuse me I have a Trip Advisor review to write about an eatery in a very Jewish area just outside Manchester that serves only kosher grub. I'm giving it five stars. You really don't understand much about anything real, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:35 PM

Fling shit at me Shaw and you will receive it right back - so keep it up if you like, I don't back down to bullies like you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:39 PM

Seems that Theresa is seriously contemplating bypassing parliament in order to go military on Assad. That would be her final, fatal mistake, but I still don't want her to do such a stupid thing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:39 PM

You're talking through your arse Bobad. I think today is the first time I have typed the word Jew on this thread and possibly the first time I have typed the word Jew on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:43 PM

Refer to my post of Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:35 PM , the same applies to you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:44 PM

Ignore, Raggytash.

I enjoyed my trip oop north and can thoroughly recommend the Coffee Sack on Scholes Lane. Best coffee in Prestwich (when I praised it the lovely lady tried to sell me a huge bag of coffee beans!) and they do poached eggs with avocado on sourdough like you've never had it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 03:13 AM

Yes, very much the words of someone who has lost. Well, lost the plot anyway. Best to ignore it as white noise.

BTW - This thread was originally about the lies of our Foreign Secretary but as there does not seem to have been a separate thread on Syria I am happy to let it continue. Until such a time as it becomes as toxic as the nerve agent that sparked off the whole row...

Must try the Coffee Sack - Corner of Scholes Lane and Bury New Road, right near the Friendship Inn? I can run round that way to get on the M66 rather than joining the M60 at Pendlebury.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 03:20 AM

Sorry, Steve - Didn't see your Syria based thread till now. Please feel free to continue here or there!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

An interesting take on the current imbroglio:


http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=97468
The embedded links are also quite thorough.

RT's Take:

Moscow said if the weapons were smart, they would target terrorists.
or
Are ‘smart’ missiles an attempt to destroy alleged chem attack evidence in Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:01 AM

Steve,
.your hatred of anything with even the slightest Muslim whiff."
No mention there of actual Muslims

If someone hates the slightest Muslim whiff, of course you are accusing him of hating all Muslims.
It is not just Islamophobes who criticise the disusting regime in Turkey right now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:13 AM

OPCW has confirmed Britain's assessment of the agent.
Johnson says "there is no doubt" that Russia did it.
Anyone still think he is lying by saying that?
28 reputable governments say he is not.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

Today's news about Novichok in Salisbury is that there is not one scrap of extra info that we didn't all have already. Stunning revelations - not! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:47 AM

Today's news about Novichok in Salisbury is that there is not one scrap of extra info that we didn't all have already. Stunning revelations - not!

You and others here have questioned the British findings.
Now they are confirmed, so you can't any more.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM

H.................oops

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

H...uh?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:02 AM

As a scientific sort of chap, I'll wait for genuine evidence rather than yet another official's say-so. Four billion people believe in God and they're all wrong, after all. Still, as we're told that "lives are at stake" if the claimed real evidence is released, I suppose we may never know. We're now getting the same official line as to why there can't be a parliamentary debate about military action. Mustn't let the MPs have the supposed intelligence as "lives may be at stake." Worth remembering that we pay the wages of these arrogant, manipulating, lying bastards. I can't jump through hoops today, Raggytash, as my back's killing me after all that motorway driving on top of three days of virtual inactivity. Still, sun's out this end and the birds are twittering, a hundred times more sensibly than Trump is. And aren't Warburtons crumpets good when you've no energy to make anything better...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:33 AM

Interesting to note that The OPCW does not have the power to identify the source of the nerve agent, but merely to spell out its chemical properties. (Guardian 2 hours ago) Underlining what we have said all along that there is no actual proof that the substance was manufactured in or supplied by Russia.

Going back to the intention of the thread, also underlining what a lying bastard BoJo is.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:37 AM

Best to appreciate the small good things in life while we still can...

I look out my window and imagine...

"What if.... houses on my street suddenly without any warning started exploding and incinerating,
and all around became despairing bloody charred chaos...?????

Who amongst us is incapable of ever feeling any empathy...????

yes it's shit being a civilian just trying to live a quiet normal life...

Good job we have political leaders to protect us....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:41 AM

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm there PFR? Tsk, tsk :-D

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:52 AM

..knowing my luck I'll be sat on the bog when the apocalypse shit hits the fan...


...I actually was sat on the bog when the Canary Wharf bomb went off...

A sudden inexplicable dramatic shock wave - I thought... that can't be anything I've eaten did that...

Then I got up and saw the TV news a short while later...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:26 AM

Steve,
As a scientific sort of chap, I'll wait for genuine evidence rather than yet another official's say-so.

The report compiled by the OPCW scientists of their analysis of the agent used is the hardest possible evidence there is or can be, so you will wait for ever for anything stronger!

Dave,
The OPCW does not have the power to identify the source of the nerve agent, but merely to spell out its chemical properties.

OPCW confirmed the British findings, so we know it is a weapons grade nerve agent developed by the Soviets, and that it was in extremely pure form.
Johnson says that only Russia has the means to produce that. What is your evidence that he is lying Dave?

If he can be shown to have lied he has to resign. The Opposition would call him on it if there was any evidence. Clearly there is not.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:34 AM

Government press release,
"
Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said:
Today the international chemical weapons watchdog have confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical used in the attempted assassination of Mr Skripal and his daughter, and which also resulted in the hospitalisation of a British police officer. That was a military grade nerve agent – a Novichok.
This is based on testing in 4 independent, highly reputable laboratories around the world. All returned the same conclusive results.

There can be no doubt what was used and there remains no alternative explanation about who was responsible – only Russia has the means, motive and record.
We invited the OPCW to test these samples to ensure strict adherence to international chemical weapons protocols. We have never doubted the analysis of our scientists at Porton Down.
In the interest of transparency, and because unlike the Russians we have nothing to hide, we have asked the OPCW to publish the executive summary for all to see and to circulate the full report to all state parties of the OPCW, including Russia.
We will now work tirelessly with our partners to help stamp out the grotesque use of weapons of this kind and we have called a session of the OPCW Executive Council next Wednesday to discuss next steps. The Kremlin must give answers.
We must, as a world community, stand up for the rules based order which keeps us all safe. The use of weapons of this kind can never be justified, and must be ended."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/salisbury-incident-foreign-secretary-statement-on-opcw-report

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:40 AM

It's safe to say politicians can't easily get proven as liars
if they have the power to restrict access to info
& suppress evidence that incriminates them...


Basically, if devious arses like Boris get do caught out and sacked...

apart from a little sting to their egos, it's no big deal
because they have the comfy luxury cushion of wealth to fall back on..

..and can always get lucrative work as TV personalities cashing in on their infamy....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:44 AM

Dave's Guardian report,
"The international chemical weapons watchdog has backed the UK’s findings on the identity of the chemical used to poison the former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury.
The findings by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons will be a major relief to the UK, which has said novichok, a military-grade nerve agent developed by Russia, was used in the attack."

"The executive summary released by the OPCW does not mention novichok by name, but states: “The results of the analysis by the OPCW designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW team confirms the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and severely injured three people.”"

"....also notes in its summary that the chemical had an “almost complete absence” of impurities."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/12/novichok-used-in-spy-poisoning-chemical-weapons-watchdog-confirms-salisbury

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:45 AM

Why are we so surprised that Boris Johnson lied

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:47 AM

If he lied the Opposition can force his resignation.
They would if they could.
They can't.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:47 AM

This piece of black Russian humour had been forwarded a lot around the net:

Skripal had been poisoned by a most powerful poison, 2 grams will kill half a country instantly! The Russians

- poisoned him in the restaurant

- no, on the bench

- no, in the car

- No, the door handle was smeared

- No, the suitcase was poisoned

- No, everything in the house was poisoned.

- Oh, and buckwheat was poisoned,

- but they did not die instantly, but walked around somewhere for four hours,

- but the policeman that discovered them almost died on the spot,

- but the poison was instantly identified,

- an antidote was instantly introduced, and Skripals and the policeman were saved;

- The policeman had been discharged next day!

- But they were in coma, and they will never recover!

- but no, the daughter had recovered fast!

- Oh, and dad is revived … a miracle!

- and they both are quickly recovering, your strongest poison is useless.

- the restaurant had been surrounded by police in spacesuits

- the park had been surrounded by police in spacesuits

- the house had surrounded by police in spacesuits

- they are in spacesuits, since the poison is deadly dangerous, but next to them are policemen without protection …

- The bench was cut down and removed: it’s such a terrible poison that the bench retained its toxic quality for two weeks;

- but the cat had survived in the poisoned house … the policeman had touched Skripal and nearly died, and the cat survived … and the guinea pigs would survive, but they were all forgotten, and died of hunger in the house;

- and their remains were immediately burned, as they are poisoned by the strongest poison;

- For two weeks they were poisoned by the strongest poison and survived, and now they had to be urgently cremated;

- Only guinea pigs died, the cat survived all this poison. It was stressful and hungry, so they killed it and cremated to make it certain nobody will find the secret etc etc.

The true hero of Skripal saga is the British ex-Ambassador Craig Murray, who followed the developments and unveiled many of its inconsistencies and outright lies. You may read his articles and twits to learn the details.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:55 AM

It is right and fair that someone should post Russia's side of the story, but remember no decent democratic government believes a word of it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:56 AM

Comedy just reported Boris Johnson’s Russia LIES

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:00 AM

Nice one. Iains. Playing on Russia's version of 'Have I got (fake) news for you? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:11 AM

Russia or Boris...?????

The problem facing any genuinely intelligent neutral objective inquisitive British citizens is...

out of two known habitual liars, which one should we believe is more likely to be telling us the truth...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:16 AM

btw.. how does the law stand on wiring our politicians to lie detectors whenever they appear on TV...???

[ 2 immediate problems.. how reliable are lie detectors...??? and politicians would become even more crafty exponents of 'plausible deniability'...]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:19 AM

One thing you have to hand to the Russians is that they sure know how to play to the saps.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:25 AM

... and Boris knows how to play closed minded prejudiced reactionaries...

Any truly intelligent observer would be sceptical of both Russia and the UK Govt...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:35 AM

As we are always being told: Look at the big picture.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:50 AM

So to sum up, what we've "found out" today is that novichok was used and that novichok was developed in Russia. Well blow me down!

Another thing we're constantly told is that some minute traces of stuff that were scraped off a doorknob after several elapsed days, or rescued from someone's bloodstream after a lot of metabolism ditto, or wherever they eventually scratched it up from, was "military grade"/"weapons grade"/"extremely pure", etc., therefore "must have been made in Russia" (classic non seq there, I'd say). We are all expected to swallow this bullshit hook, line and sinker because, well these important scientists mustn't be questioned. It's above our heads, innit, you see. Well I'm questioning it. What does "military grade" actually mean, how can you tell what "grade" (whatever that means - probably nothing, I'd say) something is after you've managed to get a titchy little bit of it after days, and has anyone ever found any novichok that was SUB-military grade? Accept nothing and question everything!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:52 AM

A little background. warning article may contain untruths.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/07/what-do-nerve-agents-do-and-how-hard-are-they-to-make-sergei-skripal

My take from this article is that for any suicide bomber the synthesis of nerve agents would present no problem. The only downside might be to meet Allah prematurely and forgo the 70 virgins.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 12:40 PM

We are constantly being told (which should always arouse suspicions when it's politicians doing it) that the stuff found is very pure, weapons-grade real-deal tackle. We are supposed to infer from that that it could only have come from Russia. I'd really appreciate it if someone could tell me how I'm supposed to connect those two facts in my tiny brain. I mean, a couple of weeks ago we were told that it could only have come from Russia anyway, without any mention of what "grade" it was supposed to be. We'll be told next I suppose that it could only have come from Russia because it was found smeared on the innermost doll of a babushka set bearing Putin's fingerprints that was verifiably made from a spruce tree that had Vlad's initials carved on it.