BS: Britain wants its own GPS system

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:27 PM

Tim Berners-Lee did his work when working for CERN, a large multinational organisation. The developments of Flowers and Whittle should have led to British technical supremacy in these fields, but a mixture of overgenerosity and inaction led to the Americans and Germans taking these developments forward. Radar as a concept was really a German invention, here, unusually, the UK led for a while in the implementation, through the development of the cavity magnetron, again, given away.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:23 PM

By the way, the reason my id is DMcG is that was my login to get to ARPANET. It is not to hide my real name (Dave McGlade)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:17 PM

For those interested in such things, the way html is used is almost the opposite to the way it was intended. In particular the html for an anchor is what we call a link and the html link/rel was designed as an object-relation system to mirror references in formal papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: DaveRo
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:11 PM

Stanron wrote: I wonder who invented the internet?

ARPA. Tim Berners-Lee arguably invented the Web.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:09 PM

Vin Cerf and Robert Kahn.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Stanron
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:01 PM

"The UK does not have a very happy history of high tech projects."

Oh boy, that is funny.

Lets not include the industrial revolution. That would be showing off. I suppose even computers now are not everyone's cup of high tech. Babbage invented the first, steam driven, computer even if he never finished building it. Was it Ada Lovelace, daughter of Byron, who wrote the first program?

It was Tommy Flowers who invented the first computer that actually worked. He designed and built it at his own expense. It was very good at code breaking in WW2. The Russian army, having over run German forces in the east, adapted the German code technology at the start of the cold war and his computer was as good at breaking Russian codes as it had been with the Germans. As a result it was all kept very secret, and so was his name. After the war the Americans were given one of his machines on the quiet so they could 'invent' it themselves a few years later.

I suppose we shouldn't mention radar either. After all radar. originally back in the 1930s, was supposed to be a death ray only they could never get it to kill anything. Someone did notice that the signal was affected by approaching aircraft. Lucky that.

Then there was a Mr Whittle who invented a propeller less aeroplane (airplane) engine, whatever happened to that?

Oh yes it was used in the first serviceable vertical take off fighter plane, still in commission around the world today.

Compared to that the hovercraft is probably considered to be low tech. I wonder who invented the internet?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 02:25 PM

Yes I agree with that. Also having a multinational framework, such as ESA and CERN provide, forces a formal project management structure. It increases costs. But without it you can get disasters.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 02:04 PM

I know self driving cars can't reply just on GPS, David. That's why I said GPS is *part of* what is needed.

I don't deny either we have been successful sometimes on technical projects. But equally we have had a good number of write-offs. It is worth stressing HIGH TECH PROJECTS ARE HARD. Which is one of many reasons they are usually multinatiomal: sharing cost is part of it, but the skills needed are not always all available in any one country.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:58 PM

Of course the FT is pro remain, it championing British industry. And British people. But because it champions British industry it thinks Europe is better off with Britain. As opposed to some, to some extent including me, who are mainly interested in the future of Europe even if we won't be part of it, and think that Britain now has demonstrated itself to be a waste of space.

DMcG, self driving cars cannot just rely on any GPS like system. And for what they want I am sure Galileo is good enough. These will only work with local sensors and pattern recognition. I think we are decades away from a safe and reliable system. Whatever Google say.

The UK has been involved in some very successful high tech projects, when it has worked in partnership. LHC at CERN being one. Concorde was very successful technically, it was politics and American protectionism which scuppered it. Many ESA projects have substantial and successful British input, Cassini being one. My field is Astronomy and I can think of a number of hugely successful British technical projects, they are probably too esoteric for people here. But start with Jodrell Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:51 PM

The military may have been those originally in need of extremely high precision but today many civilian applications also need high precision. The downside is that in times of political tension the system may well be switched off. If you satnav goes down map reading becomes a required skill. If the driverless truck beside you has it's navigational brain switched off you need not only evasive skills but a lot of luck as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:10 PM

Does anybody know of anything apart from military use which requires scrambled signals?

The signals are scrambled, but the main point is they are high precision. If we ever get to self driving cars we will probably need to know where they are more accurately than a few tens of metres, and GPS is part of this.

I would not read too much into "Galileo is an outdated design." It is in the nature of all long life technology programs to have an outdated design. If you design something to come to fruition in say 8 year's time, it is no surprise if it is the best part of 8 years out of date when it eventually is completed.

"It could be a chance to leapfrog the system." Yes, there is always that chance. Just as there is always the chance to fall completely flat on your face. The UK does not have a very happy history of high tech projects.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:07 PM

The FT is and always has been strongly pro-Remain.
Of course it is military. I thought you were joking about cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:48 PM

But thanks, Keith for confirming that this bluster largely comes from the British military, not industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:47 PM

So a British financial newspaper championing the interests of British companies thinks that Europe is better off with the UK. Who'd have thunk it.

What will happen is that the individuals involved in this development work to now will move to German, French or Italian companies, perhaps lured by the promise of a shiny new German, French or Italian (i.e. EU) passport.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:44 PM

And I know all about cost estimates based upon "early feasibility work" thank you. I remember when the James Webb Space Telescope was going to cost $700 million. Its over by at least a factor 20.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:43 PM

Financial Times,
"In a space race, Europe is better off with the UK
It makes little sense to exclude British companies from Galileo satellite project"

"Theresa May has been consistent in advocating maintaining close defence relations with the EU. When it comes to the Galileo project, however, it is the EU that is making the mistake of playing politics with something vital to European defence and security. In doing so, Brussels has managed to alienate even the most EU friendly members of the British cabinet. Thus Philip Hammond, the chancellor, told cabinet colleagues last week that, if the EU goes ahead with plans to block British companies from taking part in sensitive parts of Galileo, the UK would retaliate. Whitehall is already looking at ways to prevent the transfer of technology and expertise from the UK to the EU. That would be a destructive course — it would leave all concerned less secure and worse off."

"EU knows how important it will be for Britain’s military to access Galileo and expects this to form part of a future security agreement. But if the talk out of Brussels is more than bluster, the future involvement of UK companies is not up for negotiation. This is faintly absurd given that, up until now, UK-based companies have been deeply involved in developing secure elements of the system, including the codes that protect the PRS signal. "
https://www.ft.com/content/6198e776-4df7-11e8-97e4-13afc22d86d4

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:40 PM

If we have Liam Fox at the cabinet table, who can blame them. He once gave a job in Whitehall to a foreign agent.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:26 PM

This BBC article suggests that EU wants to exclude us because they do not trust us and our security.
That is quite insulting. They rely heavily on us for security information and intelligence.

We are told that the legality of the move is being investigated.

Also, "Graham Turnock, chief executive of the UK Space Agency, said early feasibility work was under way into a UK system, which he said would cost a "lot less" than Galileo, thanks to work already done and "British know-how and ingenuity".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43891933

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:25 PM

And why do you WANT to leapfrog the system Iains? Do we really need to know where our car is to the nearest centimetre? The only people I see interested in any leapfrogging are the military.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:20 PM

Yes I have been at space industry forums where they have been boasting about the space industry having the highest ratio of turnover to government investment of any industry. Turns out that a lot of it was guys in white vans putting Sky dishes on houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:15 PM

Galileo is an outdated design. It could be a chance to leapfrog the system. In 2014-2015 the UK space industry generated £13.7billion of revenues. The navigation system represents a minuscule percentage of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 12:05 PM

On the other hand the question of why "we" need one isn't so clear. "We" don't have one at the moment, we rely on an American one. And aircraft, ship and vehicle sat navs still work. It doesn't seem that we will have a problem using the European one for these purposes either. What "we" may not have access to is "scrambled signals". Does anybody know of anything apart from military use which requires scrambled signals? If its just so that the military can use it to target some more brown-skinned people, then I for one would rather we didn't have it.

What is true is that British firms won't get Galileo contracts. But with the rapid brain drain of highly qualified technical staff relocating to Europe and elsewhere, British companies are unlikely to be in a position to even bid.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:51 AM

Global Positioning System.

So aircraft, ships, road-vehicles Sat-Navs will work.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:50 AM

We havn't a strong hand. We have but a fraction of one finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:50 AM

wot is a GPS system and why do we need one?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:50 AM

"We will pay them what they tell us to pay them. We aren't in a position to "make deductions". You are right that we have invested a lot in this and other European projects. All thrown away on the altar of nationalism and xenophobia. Now Europe will go ahead without us, we are relegated to the status of a backwater. A sad, broken relic of the country we could have been."

Precisely so, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:48 AM

DMcG,
I am afraid not, Keith. We chose to leave, we suffer the implications.

I do not accept that it is an implication.
If the EU make it one I hope that we deduct our investment from the large amounts we are still expected to hand over.

We have a very strong hand. They can not fulfil their budget obligations for the next couple of years without our largess.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:39 AM

And if we really do want our own GPS system, we had better buy it from the Chinese, because all of our highly qualified engineers will be off.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:38 AM

We will pay them what they tell us to pay them. We aren't in a position to "make deductions". You are right that we have invested a lot in this and other European projects. All thrown away on the altar of nationalism and xenophobia. Now Europe will go ahead without us, we are relegated to the status of a backwater. A sad, broken relic of the country we could have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:54 AM

The ! After 'others' should be a comma, and The 'I' of 'Including' should be lower-case - iPad predictive text is the culprit. Just in case Nigs decided to have an attack of pedantry again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:51 AM

Oh dear, you're either very unobservant, Nigs old lad, or you don't read very much, or you're as dim as a Toc-H lamp - your choice as to which of those apply. Whichever way, even though it's perfectly clear to everyone else (except perhaps The Troll of Hertford), you don't seem able to get it, so I'll set it out for you in words of as few syllables as possible.

It's a collection of the mis-spellings of semi-literate BrexShit-Bumpkins which, I have observed, have abounded, not just on 'B*****n F***t garbage, but across innumerable Internet forums and social-media sites, ever since the BrexShit debacle began back in 2016. They are not my mis-spellings - I actually paid attention at school - they are the the mis-spellings of others! Including the one you labelled as 'crude', hence the inverted commas to indicate that fact.

Now, hopefully, the light might be dawning for you, although there are a few big words in there - let me know if you need me to explain what they mean.

But, of course, you already knew all that and you were just pretending to be stupid, weren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:45 AM

If it is not beyond your understanding then you are being deliberately obtuse, Nigel. The use of 'are' instead of 'our' is widespread and note I used quotes there where I was not quoting anyone. I have also seen country spelt as cuntry. In fact there is a Facebook page dedicated to the phenomenon here - Are cuntry

Now that you know maybe you can contribute to the discussion rather than trying to disrupt it with petty pedantry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:34 AM

It's not beyond my understanding, but it may be beyond yours.
You keep showing it in inverted commas, so intending people to accept it as a quote.
Ok. it is a quote then of someone unable to spell, or to refrain from deliberately misspelling in a crude (cuntry) manner.
And the person being quoted (and not just as a one-off) is - backwoodsman.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:20 AM

You got it, Dave. Wonder why it's beyond Nigs's understanding?

I refuse to speak directly to The Troll of Hertford but, he's another one too feeble-minded to understand that the UK (or, rather, the easily-bamboozled element of our electorate) has chosen to leave - the EU hasn't forced us into this so, therefore, they owe us nothing. We are the ones leaving them in the lurch, it's only right that we should be the ones making financial recompense to them, not vice-versa.

Something else the Brexiteers never told the Bumpkins when they were conning them to vote 'Leave'. "Oh, it'll be simple, no problems at all, the easiest deal we've ever done....". They must have had a bloody good laugh when the Bumpkins fell for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:45 AM

I am afraid not, Keith. We chose to leave, we suffer the implications.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:35 AM

Don't be silly, Nigel. You only have to look at the semi-literate attempts at commenting on brexit from the morons of B*****n F***t to see where BWM is coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:31 AM

If they say that leaving EU means we can no longer be a part of the GPS project they should buy us out of it.

They are expecting a lot of money from us over the next couple of years.
They may have to accept a few deductions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:16 AM

Should have thought of that before you voted, shouldn't you Keith. You quit a club you don't get to keep a share of the furniture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 08:41 AM

Better still, look up 'Irony'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 08:39 AM

Grow a sense of humour, Nigs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 May 18 - 07:52 AM

Ah but, ah but, ah but, it's all worf it "Too take Are Cuntry back", innit?
The inverted commas suggest that "Too take are country back" is a quote. But Backwoodsman is the only one I've seen actually use the expression.
Is there a source for this quote?

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 07:11 AM

Ah but, ah but, ah but, it's all worf it "Too take Are Cuntry back", innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 06:49 AM

Fulminate.

Bloomin' autotext.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 06:47 AM

My position is consistent: I think leaving is crazy and the withdrawal bill is essential to try to try to minimise the worst effects. The "Leaving means leaving, you know" is pointing out that we hear that and all sorts of variations on it - such your own "I wonder what part of leaving remoanwrs have such difficulty understanding?" but when there is something like this some culminate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 18 - 06:38 AM

"Leave means leave, you know."
So why do they keep presenting a bill?
You really should endeavour to present a consistent argument!

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 06:03 AM

Leave means leave, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 18 - 05:17 AM

Britain contributed 15% of the EU GPS budget.
It is outrageous for them to exclude us from it unless we are compensated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 May 18 - 05:03 AM

that 10 Billion is from Government coffers, shared with the 350 million they aren't spending on the NHS. And it is still 1 Billion a year until the mid 20s (aka 2030!). The 1 Billion a day (ha!) does not flow back into the Gov, only via taxes that the Gov impose or reduce! And the 1 Billion is a saving, lost in the mishmash we call commerce. And thanx Nigel - I would put the deal at best as par, on your reading. Given over-runs, we loose.

My real point is this is an example of things that will crawl out of the woodwork that weren't included in the mindset that was cost of change. Life is too complex for us to encompass even in collective brains, let alone evangelical politicians'.

And on a technical point, the more stuff we have up there the greater the possibility of catastrophies. There has been one rogue satellite crashing another, they are still up there out of control. With this the odds are increased.

Hold on tight Folkies, this will be a roller-coaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 May 18 - 04:31 AM

Just looking at the link, it appears that the opening comment:
but for a mere 1 Billion GBP we could save 1 Billion GBP a day.
It appears that that line should be that for 10 Billion GBP we could save 1 Billion GBP per year.
And whether we will need this option is still open to debate/negotiation:
The European Union has indicated that UK firms may, be barred from bidding for contracts on its Galileo programme on security grounds, while British armed forces and emergency services could be denied access to encrypted signals.

So the PM is getting prepared for a 'worst case' scenario. This seems a sensible move. If it goes ahead the plan is to have a UK system launched by the 'mid 2020s'. As opposed to galileo, which is due to be fully functional by 2026.

Subject: RE: BS: Brttain wants its own GPS system
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 May 18 - 04:00 AM

news article