BS: Irish referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:12 AM

Waiting for the Supreme Court decision, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:11 AM

The Supreme Court will decide on the matters of abortion in the cases of fatal foetal abnormality, rape or incest. Anyone who still thinks that it is likely to overturn the ban on abortion simply isn't listening. Even a favourable ruling will not see NI women stopping travelling abroad for abortions. Waiting for their decision is therefore a red herring. A delaying tactic even, depending on your motivation. It's the answer to nothing. And while we wait fruitlessly for their decision, the vast majority of NI women who need abortions for reasons other than those very restricted circumstances will continue to suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:21 AM

"That is why I feel that legislation will only occur after the court determination "
If people have to turn to courts (and the expense and time that implies) then the system is no longer fit for purpose
Your abusive behavior is not only an indication that you haven't a clue of what you are attempting to discuss
If you can't behave like an adult without using your usual childish rhetoric then leave the subject to those who can

For general Ireland is about to enter yet another major debate regarding Church behaviour
It has been found that a home run by nuns adopted the practice of unofficially fostering out children without registering their birth parents and so depriving them of ever discovering their real identities
It was thought the number was around 150, it is suggested that 15,000 adoptions need to be examined
IRELAND IS TRYIN TO CLEAN UP HER ACT
It's about time Britain made the same effort
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:12 AM

The very large majority of the population who did not allow themselves to be bamboozled by sound-bites, racist slogans on vans, lies on buses, xenophobic rhetoric, a mindlessly-repeated ad-nauseam 'Take Back Control', and a daft, airy-fairy idea of returning to the 1960s and prior, to vote 'Leave' can not, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as 'quislings'. These are people who believe they have the very best interests of the UK at heart, as part of an established, co-operative bloc of nations who trade together and in the wider world, and take advantage of a homogenised tax/tariff system.

We have been sold down the river by the Brexit-Boobies - that's fact - but, the last time I checked, this is a democratic country, anyone and everyone who so wishes has the right to challenge the status quo, provided they do it by peaceful means. Before the Referendum, Old Haddock-Face declared that, if there was a small majority, say three or four percent, in favour of 'Remain', he would challenge it and do everything he could to get a second referendum.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:41 AM

May is beholden to the DUP, she won't face them down and she won't resign. She is, in Scottish parlance, frit.
Welcome to realpolitik! That is why I feel that legislation will only occur after the court determination - providing it is positive. Even then the outcome would be contentious.


Personally I think May is toast. Another Election is required because in my opinion she was only shoe horned in to fill the void created by Camerons gross miscalculation. She has no mandate and a very iffy future.

A Fresh election would clear the air over brexit and the dominoes need to fall where they will fall. Whatever course of action is then subsequently followed would hopefully be less divisive than the present situation, where quislings are encouraging the EU to stall and impose totally unreasonable conditions. Remainers may not like to see it stated in these terms but that is the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:29 AM

"Majority party in the UK, sadly, is the Conservative party."
it did not have a majority of votes, the labour and lberal parties had more votes, they just had more seats because of the electoral system and gerry mandering [altering boundaries to suit their party

The Labour & Liberal parties may have had more votes between them, but neither had 'more votes' than the Conservative party: Electoral Commission 2017 Election Conservatives had 42% of the total vote, labour 40%.
As for claims of gerrymandering, proposals put forward by the coalition government have not been implemented, and the previous bias (in favour of Labour) remains. See The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:26 AM

Especially when what you claim to be spoonfeeding is irrelevant, and has ben stated before. Keep the discussion civil Iains, and reply instead to my post at 04:42. What remit to the Northern Irish MPs at Westminster have to do anything? This goes back to the West Lothian question, and the attempts of the Tories to fudge it. Difference is that the number of Northern Ireland MPs is very small.

McGrath makes a more serious point, which is that May is beholden to the DUP, she won't face them down and she won't resign. She is, in Scottish parlance, frit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:07 AM

"Do I have to spoonfeed everything?
You don't know enough
to be arrogant about anything Iains
Stop trying to close this thread - if you have no decent response you have no reponse - insulting doesn't hack it
Jim Carroll

Making your usual nonsensical observations I see. What a clown!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 18 - 12:31 AM

"Majority party in the UK, sadly, is the Conservative party."
it did not have a majority of votes, the labour and lberal parties had more votes, they just had more seats because of the electoral system and gerry mandering [altering boundaries to suit their party

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 18 - 06:49 PM

The only thing stopping it would be their putting Tory party interests first.

And that is precisely what the Tory Party exists to do.

But I cannot see how parliamentary procedure and parliamentary arithmetic could work out the way you suggest, Steve, even if there was a revolt by Tory backbenchers. Legislation to change the law in Northern Ireland could only have any effect if it was government legislation. A motion by the opposition, or by backbenchers of any party, even if it passed, would be merely an expression of opinion.

If this was treated as a vote of confidence, and the government fell, Jeremy Corbyn would be invited to form a government. Unless a significant number of Tories supported a vote of confidence for him, he would be unable to do so. A new leader of the Tory party might be given a chance to form a government, but they would need DUP backing to form a government. If they could not, parliament would be dissolved for a fresh General Election.

I can see no circumstances in which it is possible for the present parliament to make the legislative changes you suggest, even if a majority of members might wish to do that. Unless there was to be a breakaway group of Tories willing to support Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister, which I do not see as a credible scenario. (It is theoretically possible that an alternative Tory leader could seek allies from other parties to replace the DUP - but I find that highly improbable. Can we envisage the LibDems or SNP cut their throats by doing that? Or even a bunch of Blairites?)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:59 PM

"Do I have to spoonfeed everything?
You don't know enough
to be arrogant about anything Iains
Stop trying to close this thread - if you have no decent response you have no reponse - insulting doesn't hack it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:52 PM

Northern Ireland has an assembly which has equal numbers of DUP and SF members, and can't form a government.

Westminster has a composition which has the conservatives as the largest party.

That subset of Westminster MPs who hail from Northern Irish constituencies has no mandate to do anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:41 PM

You yourself certainly need to be spoonfed the remit of the Supreme Court. Any ruling it reaches will not settle anything you think it may settle. Do your homework.

"It's pointless arguing that the Westminster government "ought" to legislate to change the law in Northern Ireland. It doesn't have the ability to do that, because without DUP support it ceases to exist."

Incorrect. Yes it does have the ability. The Commons can vote to change the legislation. And almost certainly would. Were the government to facilitate such a vote, the DUP (against its own interests, but let's not forget what idiots they are) would probably bring down the government. But that prospect doesn't mean that the government doesn't have the ability. Yes it does. The only thing stopping it would be their putting Tory party interests first.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:18 PM

DC The context is northern Ireland. Do I have to spoonfeed everything?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:04 PM

The Conservative Party is not the majority party in the House of Commons, it’s just the largest party. That's why it had to buy in the DUP to give them a majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:43 PM

Majority party in the UK, sadly, is the Conservative party. The fact that the DUP has more seats than Sinn Fein (sorry, can't do the accents) has no bearing on NI legislation. Either its an assembly function or its a Westminster function.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:30 PM

"
There is no majority party in the NI assembly"

Who said there was?

I said majority party. In the UK election DUP 10 seats, Sinn Féin 7 seats, Independant !

Majority = A majority is the greater part, or more than half, of the total. It is a subset of a set consisting of more than half of the set's elements

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:59 PM

Yes. They call it realpolitik! That is the world we live in and it ain't going to change overnight. You can wish all you like but practicalities dictate the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:40 PM

"because without DUP support it ceases to exist."
There you have it in a nutshell Mac
This crowd have put Britain in hock to a bunch of bigots
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:25 PM

It's pointless arguing that the Westminster government "ought" to legislate to change the law in Northern Ireland. It doesn't have the ability to do that, because without DUP support it ceases to exist.

It would of course be a good thing for this government to cease to exist, so in a sense that is what "ought" to happen, but that's another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:15 PM

"You cannot have an argument to keep out of N. Irish Politics and also argue for a change in the law to be arbitrarily imposed."
Britain is already IN Northern Ireland politics and while it is it bears a large part of the responsibility of what happens there
It is a bit more specific than "Britain's" responsibility
The ruling Party in Britain (just) is The Conservative and Unionist Party
The barrier to Northern Ireland getting the same rights as Britain are The Unionists - placing the responsibility firmly in Maggie May's lap
On the one hand we have some litle Englishman telling the Itish what they want, on the other, you have a couple of Tories saying "nuffin' to do with us guv"
What an utter shower between the lot of you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:14 PM

There is no majority party in the NI assembly.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:04 PM

Should the court hearing determine human rights have been breached in the matter of women and existing abortion law it then becomes easier and less contentious to pass amending legislation. In these circumstances the present law could go beyond the raw findings of the Court and come closer in line to existing English legislation.

You cannot have an argument to keep out of N. Irish Politics and also argue for a change in the law to be arbitrarily imposed. The majority party is against a change, therefore there would be an obvious reluctance to challenge them. Realpolitik in action. Not desirable but in the morass of N. Ireland politics is there any viable alternative, without wholesale mayhem?
Most people would agree the present Abortion law needs to be changed.
The best possible way to change the law is after the upcoming court case, assuming the verdict is positive. The UK has always been quick to legislate when found in breach of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:47 PM

A GREAT STEP FORWARD FOR REP OF IRELAND

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:34 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/30/tory-deputy-chair-attacks-mps-over-northern-ireland-abortion-law

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:28 PM

"Most NI people would be likely to prefer continued caretaking until Stormont gets over its spat."
You people have no idea wghat the Northern Ireland people want - you never have had
Thanks to English misgovernance nobody even knows what the elected representatives want othat than in the main they want sfa to do with Brexit

"The Assembly has only been down 18 months and will be back any time."
A year and a half without a Government is that all !!!!
Bloody insane to allow it and even more insane to pass it off as unimportant
"you seem to also wish to disregard the extent of self-governance that the North has already achieved."
I do Nigel - but while that isn't happening I want Irish women to have the same rights as Englishwomen and not have to go to a Human Rights court to get them
What kind of a bucket-shop is your government running and why are you defending it ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Tootler
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:28 PM

Steve,

While you may be right in theory, practical politics says the the Westminster government has to tread very carefully given the divisive nature of NI politics. While I have no truck with May's Tory government, I suspect they would have been reluctant to act even if they were't in thrall to the DUP.

If there was strong and compelling evidence that the NI people would welcome an intervention to legislate for abortion, then the Westminster government should go ahead, but first they need to have that strong amd compelling evidence which at the moment they do not have. It's possible that NI's people would welcome such an intervention but we don't know if that's the case and it may not be so until they have such evidence, they should tread carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:26 PM

"It isn't "your country." It's a part of "our country," and it our business because they are currently powerless and because it's human rights were talking about here. "

Cue pantomime response: Oh no it is not. See below. I believe the definitive answer from the court has yet to be issued.
It ain't 'uman rights til the court says so. Right?




https://fullfact.org/law/abortions-court-northern-ireland/

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:10 PM

Steve,
Well it just isn't. In the current vacuum Westminster has a duty to keep running NI in all aspects.

A Westminster dominated by Tories plus DUP.
Sinn Fein does not even have a voice there.
Most NI people would be likely to prefer continued caretaking until Stormont gets over its spat.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 18 - 12:26 PM

You are not commenting on things as they stand, Nigel. As things stand, there is no administration in NI to devolve anything to. Talking about devolved matters is nonsensical. Life must go on, and we are talking about human rights denial here. Second, you opponents of change are constantly talking as though NI is a different country. Well it just isn't. In the current vacuum Westminster has a duty to keep running NI in all aspects. The fact that the one issue you are focussing on which you don't want dealing with is a matter of human rights and bringing the abuse of women to an end is doubly disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:56 AM

David,
Keith, not I don't trust the Tories and the DUP an inch,

Then do not give them a free hand to run NI by themselves.

The UK government is duty bound to exercise those powers in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland,

And they have been on day to day issues, but avoiding anything contentious or of lasting consequence. The people of NI approve of that.
They do not want a power grab because of a passing spat inside Stormont.

The abortion laws have been in place for ever on both sides of the border. In a few weeks NI women can cross the border for treatment.
Ireland has huge and unfathomable (to us) sensitivities.
Do nothing in haste.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:49 AM

I make no judgement as to whether blowing up reservoirs in the cause of freedom is justified or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:46 AM

From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:08 AM
Actually it sounds Nigel as if what you really want is independence rather than devolution. Which is a reasonable thing to want, and maybe you should campaign for it. You could always blow up some reservoirs.

That has been tried in the past, and as such, sounds like a racist comment. It could even be seen as an incitement to action.

I would just as soon we didn't have devolved authority, but am commenting on things as they currently stand, not as I would like them to stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:08 AM

Actually it sounds Nigel as if what you really want is independence rather than devolution. Which is a reasonable thing to want, and maybe you should campaign for it. You could always blow up some reservoirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:06 AM

But if the Welsh assembly could not form a government Nigel, they would do.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:03 AM

Nigel, its not someone else's country, it is part of the UK.
The United Kingdom is a sovereign country. It is made up of 4 smaller countries.
As a resident of Wales I get a say in what happens in the UK, and in what happens (for devolved matters) in Wales. I do not expect to have a say about devolved matters in Northern Ireland, just as I would not expect them to have a say in any matters which are devolved to the Welsh Assembly.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:37 AM

Keith, not I don't trust the Tories and the DUP an inch, they are proceeding with Brexit which is far more damaging to Northern Ireland than anything else they could do, short perhaps of setting off the entire UK nuclear arsenal in Belfast.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:35 AM

Nigel, its not someone else's country, it is part of the UK. The Northern Ireland assembly is a devolved administration, powers are devolved from the UK government to that assembly. As that assembly is not functioning, those powers have been returned to the UK government. The UK government is duty bound to exercise those powers in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, note first, not its politicians. Note second, in the interests of the people, not in accordance with their views.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:23 AM

a precedent of goodwill to a neighbouring nation, and an indication that we approve of their burgeoning separation of state and church.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:17 AM

Edited version.
The Assembly has only been down 18 months and will be back any time.
Meanwhile Westminster makes decisions for the day to day running of the place but nothing contentious or of lasting consequence.

The situation on abortion has existed on both sides of the border for centuries.
We could jump in and change their laws for them but what a precedent that would be setting!
Do you trust the Tories and DUP not to follow with a string of changes that they think worth rushing through before the Assembly is back and running, with Sinn Fein marginalised?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 18 - 09:28 AM

It isn't "your country." It's a part of "our country," and it our business because they are currently powerless and because it's human rights were talking about here.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 30 May 18 - 08:27 AM

Dedicated to those who made no issue of NI & Abortion before the referendum

Rome wasn't built in a day and it bastions will not be demolished in a day either

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:57 AM

Who else? Republic of Ireland? EU? UN? Has to be someone
Why does it 'have to be someone'?

I think this is a throwback to Imperialism. "We don't like the way you run your country. We'll impose our laws instead."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:46 AM

Who else? Republic of Ireland? EU? UN? Has to be someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:44 AM

Before it went in abeyance the NI Assembly easily voted down the most minor reform on abortion.
I think they were wrong and a bit mad but before we impose our will and values on another country (albeit within UK), do we have that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:42 AM

Is that a reason for the UK government to take over though?
No matter how valid we might think the proposed changes, do we have the right to impose them?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:09 AM

Sorry, I notice that Steve made that point yesterday, but he seems to have been ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:05 AM

However, Nigel, there is currently no Northern Ireland government. So its self-governance, regrettably, is in abeyance.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 05:46 AM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:21 AM
The abandonment of Northern Irish women by May's Government has now extended to the new bill on domestic violence going through Parliament at present
MPs from both parties and some Tory ministers are demanding that it should cover the Six Counties
It will be interesting to see if he who pays the piper is still calling the tune.

For someone who seems to want a united Ireland (separate from the UK), you seem to also wish to disregard the extent of self-governance that the North has already achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 18 - 05:28 AM

devolved countries are empowered to decide such things...

'such things'.....such things as what Keith?

surely we are talking very basic human rights. what a woman does with her own body.

where would it stop?

would we concede the right to beat your wife....the right to shit in the water supply...the right to dance a jig on the M1?